The 3-Series is no TSX
08-01-2003, 06:33 AM
#161
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I never was impressed with 318 BMWs nor 323s nor 325s. I think advantage goes to the TSX. Simply cause 325 owners don't mod their cars and probably just lease them.
Though, there is no substitute for cylinders. A 200hp I-4 will sound strained to me instead of a 185hp I-6.
THough Honda makes the best I-4s in the world.
Though, there is no substitute for cylinders. A 200hp I-4 will sound strained to me instead of a 185hp I-6.
THough Honda makes the best I-4s in the world.
08-01-2003, 09:18 AM
#162
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Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
This is only half true. Luxury, BMW wins. No question there. But as far as power, the TSX engine and the 325 engine are equals. Go to page 9 of this thread and look at the dyno charts and figures I posted. BMW's 2.5L I6 has no tangible advantage over Honda's 2.4L four. And since most people (like me) would prefer an engine with more low-end torque, the TSX engine has a slight advantage. These are the facts.
This is only half true. Luxury, BMW wins. No question there. But as far as power, the TSX engine and the 325 engine are equals. Go to page 9 of this thread and look at the dyno charts and figures I posted. BMW's 2.5L I6 has no tangible advantage over Honda's 2.4L four. And since most people (like me) would prefer an engine with more low-end torque, the TSX engine has a slight advantage. These are the facts.
08-01-2003, 09:33 AM
#163
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"But holy crap your arguements are so unfounded."
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Unfounded? The TSX is a new car and you guys are already praising it's reliability, and comparing it to cars that have been successful for years. I would see that as being unfounded and extremely premature.
If you are being honest with yourself, you will realize that you were in a win-win situation. You couldn't get the deal you wanted on the 3-Series, so you were fortunate to have a car like the TSX to fall back on. That is what I am doing.
I have put my final offers out there for both cars. I am willing to pay a certain amount for each one and we will see which offer is accepted. If they are both accepted, then I will end up with the 3-Series because it is the "xi" all-wheel-drive and in MN that is important to me. If not, hopefully they will accept my TSX offer and I will end up with another very nice car for the money. However, in the current market, my TSX offer is more than likely going to be shot down. If they are both rejected, then I keep my Acura CL 3.0 until spring when the hype of the TSX is over and they are dealing down from MSRP.
I'll be fine either way, but I still don't compare the 2 cars head to head...
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Unfounded? The TSX is a new car and you guys are already praising it's reliability, and comparing it to cars that have been successful for years. I would see that as being unfounded and extremely premature.
If you are being honest with yourself, you will realize that you were in a win-win situation. You couldn't get the deal you wanted on the 3-Series, so you were fortunate to have a car like the TSX to fall back on. That is what I am doing.
I have put my final offers out there for both cars. I am willing to pay a certain amount for each one and we will see which offer is accepted. If they are both accepted, then I will end up with the 3-Series because it is the "xi" all-wheel-drive and in MN that is important to me. If not, hopefully they will accept my TSX offer and I will end up with another very nice car for the money. However, in the current market, my TSX offer is more than likely going to be shot down. If they are both rejected, then I keep my Acura CL 3.0 until spring when the hype of the TSX is over and they are dealing down from MSRP.
I'll be fine either way, but I still don't compare the 2 cars head to head...
08-01-2003, 09:48 AM
#165
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There should'nt be any fighting here. You guys should buy what you like, you can't go wrong either way.
I would like to see a Saab 9-3 vs BMW 3 series argument though, why is it always TSX vs XXX
The 9-3 vs 3 series is definently a better comparison than either against the TSX.
I'd like to hear why Buff has'nt looked at the 9-3 and kewl at the 3 series??? Round 1 --Go
BTW Buff, I really think you should get the 3, I think it would make you happier. Is'nt that more important than saving the $1500 or so bucks??
I would like to see a Saab 9-3 vs BMW 3 series argument though, why is it always TSX vs XXX
The 9-3 vs 3 series is definently a better comparison than either against the TSX.
I'd like to hear why Buff has'nt looked at the 9-3 and kewl at the 3 series??? Round 1 --Go
BTW Buff, I really think you should get the 3, I think it would make you happier. Is'nt that more important than saving the $1500 or so bucks??
08-01-2003, 09:52 AM
#166
You may not compare them, but a lot of people do and for very obvious reasons which you seem unable to acknowledge. It's also a matter of cross-shopping. Some people may see it just as "unfair" and as much of a "dreamworld" to comapre the TSX to the mazda6 as you do to the 325 and TSX. But that does not change the fact that they ARE compared and ARE cross-shopped.
I'm glad the tune of this thread changed to a more overall "feel" rather than numbers, because just looking at numbers, the 325 is silly to purchase for anything but "prestige" (and to be seen as a complete a-hole by many others that comes along with it) if that floats your boat, now that the TSX is out. But, as I stated earlier, I could buy an argument that the TSX may perform as well as the 325, but the 325 feels better doing it. $10k better? Personal decision.
"is just a fact that if you use cheaper materials, you can build a car for less and therefore sell the car for less" - you are neglecting several other factors here, such as Clutch mentioned, but also how German auto workers are likely more expensive to fund than Japanese auto workers, and that the Japanese factories are likely much more efficient and cost-effective than German factories. All of this ties into the cost to manufacture as well. Finally, there's the "prestige" (silly to me) that some people are willing to pay for, which is basically just giving money away.
If someone gave me a 330 I'd gladly take it and pay the insurance. If someone gave me a 325 I'd still take it and pay the insurance. Having money to buy the 330 (which I don't compare to the TSX) and thereby the 325, I choose not to because it is not worth the price to me. Personal choice is great, and it's great that Acura finally produced something in the TSX that is competitive with the rest of the entry-lux category (esp. when price is included).
I'm glad the tune of this thread changed to a more overall "feel" rather than numbers, because just looking at numbers, the 325 is silly to purchase for anything but "prestige" (and to be seen as a complete a-hole by many others that comes along with it) if that floats your boat, now that the TSX is out. But, as I stated earlier, I could buy an argument that the TSX may perform as well as the 325, but the 325 feels better doing it. $10k better? Personal decision.
"is just a fact that if you use cheaper materials, you can build a car for less and therefore sell the car for less" - you are neglecting several other factors here, such as Clutch mentioned, but also how German auto workers are likely more expensive to fund than Japanese auto workers, and that the Japanese factories are likely much more efficient and cost-effective than German factories. All of this ties into the cost to manufacture as well. Finally, there's the "prestige" (silly to me) that some people are willing to pay for, which is basically just giving money away.
If someone gave me a 330 I'd gladly take it and pay the insurance. If someone gave me a 325 I'd still take it and pay the insurance. Having money to buy the 330 (which I don't compare to the TSX) and thereby the 325, I choose not to because it is not worth the price to me. Personal choice is great, and it's great that Acura finally produced something in the TSX that is competitive with the rest of the entry-lux category (esp. when price is included).
08-01-2003, 10:34 AM
#167
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Domn,
You instigator!
My reasons for not considering the 3 series:
1. TOO Common! Current series is just so played out. I see more of those on the road than Civics!
2. Insurance is considerably higher than the 9-3 (at my company and where I live)
3. Maintenance costs - on avg typical maintainance items are much more expensive than comparable ones on the Saab vehicles. I got this from speaking with my good buddy who just ditched his '01 3 Series Sedan for an Infiniti G35 and my Uncle who has a 9-5.
4. While I admit that the ride, quality, and performance of a 3 series is excellent with the 9-3 coming close behind it. Plus a similiarly equiped 3 series costs close to 40K+. A little more than I want to spend. You TSX guys know something about that!
You instigator!
My reasons for not considering the 3 series:
1. TOO Common! Current series is just so played out. I see more of those on the road than Civics!
2. Insurance is considerably higher than the 9-3 (at my company and where I live)
3. Maintenance costs - on avg typical maintainance items are much more expensive than comparable ones on the Saab vehicles. I got this from speaking with my good buddy who just ditched his '01 3 Series Sedan for an Infiniti G35 and my Uncle who has a 9-5.
4. While I admit that the ride, quality, and performance of a 3 series is excellent with the 9-3 coming close behind it. Plus a similiarly equiped 3 series costs close to 40K+. A little more than I want to spend. You TSX guys know something about that!
08-01-2003, 10:49 AM
#168
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Originally posted by Buff-Daddy
If you are being honest with yourself, you will realize that you were in a win-win situation. You couldn't get the deal you wanted on the 3-Series, so you were fortunate to have a car like the TSX to fall back on. That is what I am doing.
If you are being honest with yourself, you will realize that you were in a win-win situation. You couldn't get the deal you wanted on the 3-Series, so you were fortunate to have a car like the TSX to fall back on. That is what I am doing.
Most importantly, I found that the Acura, now having owned it for a short time, has as much class, as much (IMO more) quality, and as much (once again IMO more) luxury as the BMW.
Listen, I've owned a BMW 325, maintained a BMW 325, and sold my BMW 325. It had almost 188K miles and it served me VERY well (note it had its own flaws much like the TSX does). At this point in my life, paying $8k more for the options on the BMW that the TSX had standard, did not fill the very small gap the TSX had in handling and engine performance in comparison to the BMW 325.
08-01-2003, 12:44 PM
#169
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what you want and what you want others to see
Really enjoyed reading this forum!
I think when you try to decide between BMW or Acura or Saab, you are not just choosing cars - you are choosing everything that is directly or subtly associated with the cars. In a general sense, most buyers won't deny that having a German car pleases not only the driver, but also the people they know - and in a lot of cases the people they have just met - in a night club or at a business meeting. In this culture, cars reflect upon their owners. To many, it's a very important part of that person. Not many company executives want to be seen driving around in a Ford or Kia. I know a lot of people can buy BMWs and also afford the extra cost (insurance, maintenance etc.) that goes with that, but there are also people who just have enough cash for that and they have to keep some complaints to themselves.
On a different note, in a Western vs. Eastern culture sense, German cars have always had more aura over the Japanese cars in this world dominated by western culture.
I think when you try to decide between BMW or Acura or Saab, you are not just choosing cars - you are choosing everything that is directly or subtly associated with the cars. In a general sense, most buyers won't deny that having a German car pleases not only the driver, but also the people they know - and in a lot of cases the people they have just met - in a night club or at a business meeting. In this culture, cars reflect upon their owners. To many, it's a very important part of that person. Not many company executives want to be seen driving around in a Ford or Kia. I know a lot of people can buy BMWs and also afford the extra cost (insurance, maintenance etc.) that goes with that, but there are also people who just have enough cash for that and they have to keep some complaints to themselves.
On a different note, in a Western vs. Eastern culture sense, German cars have always had more aura over the Japanese cars in this world dominated by western culture.
08-01-2003, 01:45 PM
#170
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Originally posted by domn
BTW Buff, I really think you should get the 3, I think it would make you happier. Is'nt that more important than saving the $1500 or so bucks??
BTW Buff, I really think you should get the 3, I think it would make you happier. Is'nt that more important than saving the $1500 or so bucks??
You see, Buff-Daddy, we know this guy at clubtsx.com. A long long time ago he bought a Prelude instead of a BMW. He hates his car and now spends time complaining about 4-cylinder FWD cars. And he does so on a forum dedicated to a 4-cylinder FWD car.
Life is too short to spend time on forums for cars you dislike. Go for the BMW.
08-01-2003, 02:00 PM
#171
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Originally posted by dnb
Big amen to the above.
You see, Buff-Daddy, we know this guy at clubtsx.com. A long long time ago he bought a Prelude instead of a BMW. He hates his car and now spends time complaining about 4-cylinder FWD cars. And he does so on a forum dedicated to a 4-cylinder FWD car.
Life is too short to spend time on forums for cars you dislike. Go for the BMW.
Big amen to the above.
You see, Buff-Daddy, we know this guy at clubtsx.com. A long long time ago he bought a Prelude instead of a BMW. He hates his car and now spends time complaining about 4-cylinder FWD cars. And he does so on a forum dedicated to a 4-cylinder FWD car.
Life is too short to spend time on forums for cars you dislike. Go for the BMW.
Anybody go get him yet. On second thought we have plenty of TSX haters to go around. Not sure if anyone can replace the original though.
08-01-2003, 04:43 PM
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See, there you go again... I have a BMW and Acura now, so don't tell me I hate Acura's. I prefer the 3-Series if I can get my price. I will be happy with the TSX if I can get my price on that too. And finally, I owned a Prelude for 4 years and I loved it! I was sad to hear that they were going to stop making them...
I am not a TSX hater, I got worked up because people were awarding it "car of the year" before they have even driven it 5,000 or in some cases, before they have even owned one. I have yet to hear back from either dealership which makes me a little nervous, maybe I will get shut out on both deals...
Oh well, there is always the A4 Quattro... But that is another thread...
P.S. If everyone just agreed that the TSX was king sh!t all of the time, what fun would that be?
I am not a TSX hater, I got worked up because people were awarding it "car of the year" before they have even driven it 5,000 or in some cases, before they have even owned one. I have yet to hear back from either dealership which makes me a little nervous, maybe I will get shut out on both deals...
Oh well, there is always the A4 Quattro... But that is another thread...
P.S. If everyone just agreed that the TSX was king sh!t all of the time, what fun would that be?
08-02-2003, 12:26 AM
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"I'd like to hear why Buff has'nt looked at the 9-3 and kewl at the 3 series?"
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Hello domn,
I did look at the 9-3. I think it looks awesome from the outside, but I didn't feel comfortable with the interior. I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the 9-3 other than it just wasn't "me". I felt kind of the same way in the A4, awesome car, but it just didn't feel like me.
There is a guy that has an all black 9-3 vector with tinted windows that comes to our health club and it is SWEET! He is way too big for the car though, he needs a Chevy Tahoe or something, he is NFL material and looks terribly uncomfortable climbing in and out of that thing.
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Hello domn,
I did look at the 9-3. I think it looks awesome from the outside, but I didn't feel comfortable with the interior. I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the 9-3 other than it just wasn't "me". I felt kind of the same way in the A4, awesome car, but it just didn't feel like me.
There is a guy that has an all black 9-3 vector with tinted windows that comes to our health club and it is SWEET! He is way too big for the car though, he needs a Chevy Tahoe or something, he is NFL material and looks terribly uncomfortable climbing in and out of that thing.
08-02-2003, 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by Buff-Daddy
......There is a guy that has an all black 9-3 vector with tinted windows that comes to our health club and it is SWEET! He is way too big for the car though, he needs a Chevy Tahoe or something, he is NFL material and looks terribly uncomfortable climbing in and out of that thing.
......There is a guy that has an all black 9-3 vector with tinted windows that comes to our health club and it is SWEET! He is way too big for the car though, he needs a Chevy Tahoe or something, he is NFL material and looks terribly uncomfortable climbing in and out of that thing.
Funny, funny image!
08-04-2003, 01:50 PM
#176
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Originally posted by jumpper
There is one way to find out, let me take my brother on the open road.
There is one way to find out, let me take my brother on the open road.
That being said, try it anyway and see what happens. Have fun
08-04-2003, 01:56 PM
#177
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Originally posted by Buff-Daddy
....I prefer the 3-Series if I can get my price. I will be happy with the TSX if I can get my price on that too.....
....I prefer the 3-Series if I can get my price. I will be happy with the TSX if I can get my price on that too.....
PS. I hope you get the number you want on the BMW. Good luck.
08-04-2003, 02:05 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: the prestige factor
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
I'm very serious. And you're right, BMW I6's are the best in the world. But that doesn't automatically make them better than every other engine on the planet.
I'm very serious. And you're right, BMW I6's are the best in the world. But that doesn't automatically make them better than every other engine on the planet.
hahaha! that's the most contradictory thing i've ever read!!!!!
08-04-2003, 02:25 PM
#179
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the prestige factor
Originally posted by donutchow
hahaha! that's the most contradictory thing i've ever read!!!!!
hahaha! that's the most contradictory thing i've ever read!!!!!
This allows the possiblity that a non-i6 engine such as the I4 in the TSX is as good an engine as a BMW I6 (325). My point: BMW makes the best I6es in the world, yes, but the k24 is not an I6.
08-04-2003, 02:26 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the prestige factor
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
Allow me to clarify: This means that BMW I6es are better than any other I6 in the world. No one should dispute this. However, BMW I6es are not necessarily better than any other ENGINE (in general) in the world.
This allows the possiblity that an I4 (TSX) is as good an engine as a BMW I6 (325). My point: BMW makes the best I6es in the world, yes, but the k24a2 is not an I6.
Allow me to clarify: This means that BMW I6es are better than any other I6 in the world. No one should dispute this. However, BMW I6es are not necessarily better than any other ENGINE (in general) in the world.
This allows the possiblity that an I4 (TSX) is as good an engine as a BMW I6 (325). My point: BMW makes the best I6es in the world, yes, but the k24a2 is not an I6.
08-04-2003, 02:28 PM
#181
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the prestige factor
Originally posted by donutchow
who else makes an I6 besides BMW?
who else makes an I6 besides BMW?
Also, GM makes one. It's in the Envoy/Trailblazer/Ascender/Ranier clones.
Edit: Volvo has an inline six in its XC90 SUV.
Edit: Ooh, just found out Daewoo is making one for it's Magnus sedan.
08-04-2003, 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
Just curious: what's the difference in the price you're asking on the 330xi versus the price you're asking on the TSX. You don't have to say the actual dollar amounts for each, that's too personal. I just want to know what the difference in the two numbers is. Thanks.
PS. I hope you get the number you want on the BMW. Good luck.
Just curious: what's the difference in the price you're asking on the 330xi versus the price you're asking on the TSX. You don't have to say the actual dollar amounts for each, that's too personal. I just want to know what the difference in the two numbers is. Thanks.
PS. I hope you get the number you want on the BMW. Good luck.
Best Quotes:
BMW 325xi (all-wheel-drive) - Titanium Silver w/Black Interior, Automatic, Power Seats, Heated Seats. Moon-Roof. Selling price is $32,700 ($1,000 over invoice). 36mo. 12k/yr. - $3,500 total down, $378/mo (inc tax)
Acura TSX (Non-Navi) - Carbon Gray w/Ebony Interior, Automatic
Selling Price is $26,990. 36mo. 12k/yr. - $2,500 total down, $354/mo (inc tax)
BMW is an extra $1,000 down and $24/mo, but it is my favorite look/feel of all the cars I tested and the all-wheel-drive is worth it to me if I can get it. Dealers around me will not discount off of MSRP on the TSX because it is already over a 45 day wait on the vehicles, not to mention the populatirty of the Carbon Gray color.
08-04-2003, 02:34 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the prestige factor
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
Toyota for one. 2JZ-GE ring a bell? If not, see Lexus IS300/GS300. Also, GM makes one. It's in the Envoy/Trailblazer/Ascender/Ranier clones.
Toyota for one. 2JZ-GE ring a bell? If not, see Lexus IS300/GS300. Also, GM makes one. It's in the Envoy/Trailblazer/Ascender/Ranier clones.
want some trivia? name 3, nah, just 2 cars that have a FLAT 12.
alexandria's nice, i was there over the weekend with my girlfriend. not too far from fairfax
08-04-2003, 02:40 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the prestige factor
Originally posted by donutchow
....want some trivia? name 3, nah, just 2 cars that have a FLAT 12.
alexandria's nice, i was there over the weekend with my girlfriend. not too far from fairfax
....want some trivia? name 3, nah, just 2 cars that have a FLAT 12.
alexandria's nice, i was there over the weekend with my girlfriend. not too far from fairfax
Fairfax is a nice area, too. I like living in the DC suburbs. It's great except for the ridiculous traffic.
Bring your girlfriend to Old Town Alexandria if you're looking for a nice place for a date.
08-04-2003, 02:43 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the prestige factor
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
I can name two Ferraris: 330GT (old) and Testarossa (not so old).
Fairfax is a nice area, too. I like living in the DC suburbs. It's great except for the ridiculous traffic. Bring your girlfriend to Old Town Alexandria if you're looking for a nice place for a date.
I can name two Ferraris: 330GT (old) and Testarossa (not so old).
Fairfax is a nice area, too. I like living in the DC suburbs. It's great except for the ridiculous traffic.
Bring your girlfriend to Old Town Alexandria if you're looking for a nice place for a date.
the beltway is a 24 hour traffic jam. terrible. they should make it double decker for more lanes. yeah, that tapas restaurant is pretty damn good. then ben and jerry's for desert
08-04-2003, 02:46 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the prestige factor
Originally posted by donutchow
good call on the 330GT! .......
good call on the 330GT!
.......
Edit: Only the ES300 has a V6
08-04-2003, 04:01 PM
#187
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back to the discussion, on Edmunds.com the TSX has the highest consumer rating of ANY car on their site (well, any car with over 10 reviews; the TSX has over a 100) with an average consumer rating of 9.6 on a 10.0 scale. the consumer rating is an average of 8 criteria: performance, comfort, fuel economy, fun-to-drive, interior design, exterior design, build quality, and reliability. incidentally, value wasn't one of the criteria. there are quite a few people that did give the TSX tens for everything, but surely all of the 100+ reviewers can't be homers.
the TSX more than any other car evidently has the least amount of compromise or the best of all possible worlds.
the TSX more than any other car evidently has the least amount of compromise or the best of all possible worlds.
08-04-2003, 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by akuma007
.....on Edmunds.com the TSX has the highest consumer rating of ANY car on their site (well, any car with over 10 reviews; the TSX has over a 100) with an average consumer rating of 9.6 on a 10.0 scale......Incidentally, value wasn't one of the criteria......
.....on Edmunds.com the TSX has the highest consumer rating of ANY car on their site (well, any car with over 10 reviews; the TSX has over a 100) with an average consumer rating of 9.6 on a 10.0 scale......Incidentally, value wasn't one of the criteria......
Assuming it's true, it is maybe the best corroboration yet of what many of us have felt.
We've looked at that Edmunds stuff before, and we saw that TSX got higher scores than any of the usual comps -- but I don't think we realized what Akuma is saying. If it's true, it's awesome.
Especially considering that there isn't even any extra credit for "value."
08-04-2003, 11:41 PM
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Actually, the TSX is now second - right behind the new Madza Rx8. Nevertheless, it is much higher than its competition (check all the competing cars at the bottom of the TSX score.
Domm: unless you were referring to the quoted lease rates, the TSX is MUCH cheaper than the 325. I checked BMW Canada web site last night as my next door neighbour has a 325 on order, while I have a TSX. The 325 starts at 39, and goes to 46K Canadian (56,000 for a 330) when equipped like a TSX. That is a huge difference.
Went by London, Ontario Acura West today. They had 20 TSXs that I saw: lots of silver, white (about 7 each), then Black. I purple. No red. What the hell is up with them?
Domm: unless you were referring to the quoted lease rates, the TSX is MUCH cheaper than the 325. I checked BMW Canada web site last night as my next door neighbour has a 325 on order, while I have a TSX. The 325 starts at 39, and goes to 46K Canadian (56,000 for a 330) when equipped like a TSX. That is a huge difference.
Went by London, Ontario Acura West today. They had 20 TSXs that I saw: lots of silver, white (about 7 each), then Black. I purple. No red. What the hell is up with them?
08-05-2003, 12:55 AM
#190
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"Edmunds.com the TSX has the highest consumer rating of ANY car on their site (well, any car with over 10 reviews; the TSX has over a 100) with an average consumer rating of 9.6 on a 10.0 scale. the consumer rating is an average of 8 criteria: performance, comfort, fuel economy, fun-to-drive, interior design, exterior design, build quality, and reliability. incidentally, value wasn't one of the criteria. there are quite a few people that did give the TSX tens for everything, but surely all of the 100+ reviewers can't be homers.
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Hey, I also saw that the 2003 "Bentley Arnage" that retails for $260,000 was rated an 8.9 and the Ferrari Enzo that retails for $650,000 received an 8.5! I bet a lot of Bently & Ferrari owners have been logging on and voting. ARE YOU ON CRACK! These could be the most worthless numbers of all time. All 100 votes could be from the same person. This is about as un-scientific of a poll as I have even seen and you are about to pee yourself with joy? Nice research buddy...
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Hey, I also saw that the 2003 "Bentley Arnage" that retails for $260,000 was rated an 8.9 and the Ferrari Enzo that retails for $650,000 received an 8.5! I bet a lot of Bently & Ferrari owners have been logging on and voting. ARE YOU ON CRACK! These could be the most worthless numbers of all time. All 100 votes could be from the same person. This is about as un-scientific of a poll as I have even seen and you are about to pee yourself with joy? Nice research buddy...
08-05-2003, 12:57 AM
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Originally posted by Buff-Daddy
These could be the most worthless numbers of all time. All 100 votes could be from the same person......
These could be the most worthless numbers of all time. All 100 votes could be from the same person......
08-07-2003, 03:22 AM
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Hey, I also saw that the 2003 "Bentley Arnage" that retails for $260,000 was rated an 8.9 and the Ferrari Enzo that retails for $650,000 received an 8.5! I bet a lot of Bently & Ferrari owners have been logging on and voting. ARE YOU ON CRACK! These could be the most worthless numbers of all time. All 100 votes could be from the same person. This is about as un-scientific of a poll as I have even seen and you are about to pee yourself with joy? Nice research buddy...
08-07-2003, 09:56 AM
#194
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Some input from an "outsider", new to this Board but a Moderator on another (golf-related) Board.
I have owned dozens of cars, including, most recently, 4 Acuras (the one I'm thinking of replacing with a TSX is an '01 CL) as well as numerous German cars, including Porsche, Audi, and yes, a BMW 3 series coupe. In my recent shopping, I have driven a 3 coupe and the TSX, both with auto., back to back, so I think I can bring something to the table on this.
Bottom line, BOTH ARE EXCELLENT CARS, but they are different. You can debate this endlessly, but it all comes down to what you want and what you are willing to spend. If it's prestige, RWD, 50-50 wt. distribution, ultimate handling feel and styling (at least with the coupe) go with the BMW. If it's reliablility, overall value with very good handling and performance, traction of FWD and price, go with the TSX. Having said that, as a buyer, I am still up in the air, so I can understand the debate.
BTW -an observation on your Board: It is amazing how similar in character it is to the one I moderate; most people are polite, thoughtful and have something valuable to say, but then there are those few who are "otherwise oriented"....
Thanks for the valuable feedback on the TSX.
Steve
I have owned dozens of cars, including, most recently, 4 Acuras (the one I'm thinking of replacing with a TSX is an '01 CL) as well as numerous German cars, including Porsche, Audi, and yes, a BMW 3 series coupe. In my recent shopping, I have driven a 3 coupe and the TSX, both with auto., back to back, so I think I can bring something to the table on this.
Bottom line, BOTH ARE EXCELLENT CARS, but they are different. You can debate this endlessly, but it all comes down to what you want and what you are willing to spend. If it's prestige, RWD, 50-50 wt. distribution, ultimate handling feel and styling (at least with the coupe) go with the BMW. If it's reliablility, overall value with very good handling and performance, traction of FWD and price, go with the TSX. Having said that, as a buyer, I am still up in the air, so I can understand the debate.
BTW -an observation on your Board: It is amazing how similar in character it is to the one I moderate; most people are polite, thoughtful and have something valuable to say, but then there are those few who are "otherwise oriented"....
Thanks for the valuable feedback on the TSX.
Steve
08-07-2003, 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by clsteve
.....Bottom line, BOTH ARE EXCELLENT CARS, but they are different......it all comes down to what you want and what you are willing to spend.....Having said that, as a buyer, I am still up in the air, so I can understand the debate.
BTW -an observation on your Board: It is amazing how similar in character it is to the one I moderate; most people are polite, thoughtful and have something valuable to say, but then there are those few who are "otherwise oriented"......
.....Bottom line, BOTH ARE EXCELLENT CARS, but they are different......it all comes down to what you want and what you are willing to spend.....Having said that, as a buyer, I am still up in the air, so I can understand the debate.
BTW -an observation on your Board: It is amazing how similar in character it is to the one I moderate; most people are polite, thoughtful and have something valuable to say, but then there are those few who are "otherwise oriented"......
Nice little summary of the pros and cons both ways.
Played a lot of golf when younger, stopped being as interested when they started basically making you use the carts.
Silly reason, but I'm pretty silly.
08-07-2003, 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by hatchback
Reliability is determined by statistics, not anecdotes. And the long-term statistics all say that Japanese manufacters produce far more reliable cars than European manufacturers. Of the Japanese manufacturers, Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura are consistently at the top, and the Japenese cars that are actually manufactured in Japan (eg., TSX, S2000) are consistently more reliable than the Japanese cars manufactured in the USA (eg., Accord, Odyssey). Of the German manufacturers, Mercedes, Audi, and VW are consistently at the very bottom of all long term reliability studies. Every Mercedes sold in the USA has the absolute worst reliability rating provided by Consumer Reports (a solid black circle). The only German manufacturer that doesn't embarrass themselves in this regard is BMW, which is fortunate to have a single product line (the 5 series) with just average reliability. And that could well be the most reliable European car sold in the USA! The BMW 3 series and the X5 are both reliability disasters. IIRC, the X5 is considered to be the most unreliable vehicle sold these days...
Reliability is determined by statistics, not anecdotes. And the long-term statistics all say that Japanese manufacters produce far more reliable cars than European manufacturers. Of the Japanese manufacturers, Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura are consistently at the top, and the Japenese cars that are actually manufactured in Japan (eg., TSX, S2000) are consistently more reliable than the Japanese cars manufactured in the USA (eg., Accord, Odyssey). Of the German manufacturers, Mercedes, Audi, and VW are consistently at the very bottom of all long term reliability studies. Every Mercedes sold in the USA has the absolute worst reliability rating provided by Consumer Reports (a solid black circle). The only German manufacturer that doesn't embarrass themselves in this regard is BMW, which is fortunate to have a single product line (the 5 series) with just average reliability. And that could well be the most reliable European car sold in the USA! The BMW 3 series and the X5 are both reliability disasters. IIRC, the X5 is considered to be the most unreliable vehicle sold these days...
Of course, statistics can be misleading and even manipulated. The sample population chosen can have a "luck of the draw" effect too, so to an extent I think statistics have to be taken with a grain of salt, so to speak. But in this case my personal experience is exactly as the statistics indicate: Japanese cars are by far more reliable than European cars...NO QUESTION
08-07-2003, 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by akuma007
back to the discussion, on Edmunds.com the TSX has the highest consumer rating of ANY car on their site (well, any car with over 10 reviews; the TSX has over a 100) with an average consumer rating of 9.6 on a 10.0 scale. the consumer rating is an average of 8 criteria: performance, comfort, fuel economy, fun-to-drive, interior design, exterior design, build quality, and reliability. incidentally, value wasn't one of the criteria. there are quite a few people that did give the TSX tens for everything, but surely all of the 100+ reviewers can't be homers.
the TSX more than any other car evidently has the least amount of compromise or the best of all possible worlds.
back to the discussion, on Edmunds.com the TSX has the highest consumer rating of ANY car on their site (well, any car with over 10 reviews; the TSX has over a 100) with an average consumer rating of 9.6 on a 10.0 scale. the consumer rating is an average of 8 criteria: performance, comfort, fuel economy, fun-to-drive, interior design, exterior design, build quality, and reliability. incidentally, value wasn't one of the criteria. there are quite a few people that did give the TSX tens for everything, but surely all of the 100+ reviewers can't be homers.
the TSX more than any other car evidently has the least amount of compromise or the best of all possible worlds.
08-07-2003, 11:49 AM
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"The BMW 3 series and the X5 are both reliability disasters."
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Well I must be one of the lucky ones because my X5 has been nothing but fun since the day I picked it up. 18 months later, I still cannot wait to drive it. I would lease a 3-Series too, BMW takes such great care of you that those reliability #'s are a joke to me. Leasing over 36 months is a little different than buying a used car without warranty or knowledge of previous owner. I wouldn't do that with any car, ever! A car is never a good investment or a money maker, so why not just keep leasing new and never have to worry about repairs, maintenance, etc. Who has time for all of that...
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Well I must be one of the lucky ones because my X5 has been nothing but fun since the day I picked it up. 18 months later, I still cannot wait to drive it. I would lease a 3-Series too, BMW takes such great care of you that those reliability #'s are a joke to me. Leasing over 36 months is a little different than buying a used car without warranty or knowledge of previous owner. I wouldn't do that with any car, ever! A car is never a good investment or a money maker, so why not just keep leasing new and never have to worry about repairs, maintenance, etc. Who has time for all of that...
08-07-2003, 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by Buff-Daddy
......those reliability #'s are a joke......
......those reliability #'s are a joke......
(Yes indeed Buff, you have been one of the lucky ones.)
08-07-2003, 12:51 PM
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I think the joke's on you larchmont, you paid 29k for a 4-banger that comes standard with surround sound rattles...
Go check out the problems and (no) fixes section of this board, it is FILLED with stuff. You get what you pay for, cheaper cars have cheaper parts... Funny how all of the negative posts have been burried in less popular areas of this board. Lots of unhappy TSX owners out there searching for that Acura quality they were promised...
Go check out the problems and (no) fixes section of this board, it is FILLED with stuff. You get what you pay for, cheaper cars have cheaper parts... Funny how all of the negative posts have been burried in less popular areas of this board. Lots of unhappy TSX owners out there searching for that Acura quality they were promised...