ClutchPerformer

Yes, they do. The best in the world. My question was why is THIS PARTICULAR (2.5L) inline six SO MUCH better than the TSX engine.

You're absolutely right. Inline sixes produce no shaking moment. Balance shafts are made to eliminate a shaking moment in the same way those noise-reducing headphones are made to elimiate noise (by introducing an out of phase wave). Point is, the balance shafts cancel out the worst of the vibrations. The only price you pay is that it takes power to spin the shafts. The TSX has paid that penalty and is still OK.

The BMW has a more civil engine, yes. So are we saying smoother = better?

The only thing I can think of is that most BMW engines are underrated as far as HP/TQ (and the 2.5L six might be one of them). I'm desperately trying to find a dyno sheet on this BMW engine. It would reveal a lot. Help?

ClutchPerformer

Found one. Let's see if this works. I'll discuss in the next post.

I can't link the BMW dyno sheet directly, but go here and scroll down until you see the "E46 325 ('01- ) Intake Kit - $480 CDN" heading. Click on the "dyno graph" link to the left to get the chart. Note that this website is advertising an intake, so the RED curves are the stock, and the BLUE curves are with the intake on (illustrates the effect of putting their intake on). So you have to look at the RED HP/TQ curves.

This is a TSX dyno sheet (from TOV):


Edit: Ok, the link doesn't seem to be working anymore. Got to www.vtec.net, click on the TSX vs. Accord V6 6MT article. Then go to "day 3". You'll see the dyno sheet. Make sure you're not looking at the Accord. It's got bigger numbers.

ClutchPerformer

OK, so what does this tell us?

Well the peak numbers are all essentially the same.

-----2.5L six-----------2.4L four
HP---170.1------------169.9
TQ---156.3@3500---152.4@2800
Both HP numbers come essentially at redline.

If you do some calculation using a driveline loss of about 14% for both cars (pretty standard), you get at the flywheel:

-----2.5L six---2.4L four
HP---197.8----197.6
TQ---181.7----177.2

Which tells us that BMW's HP number was underrated (which I expected), and that the TSXs torque number was underrated (which we knew from the TOV review). So, the TSX has just under FOUR less lb-ft of torque, but it comes on at 700 RPM EARLIER (i.e. more low-end torque). It looks like the TSX torque curve is flatter, but that's due to the differing scales on these two charts. They're both about the same degree of "flatness".

So which engine would you rather have?

Closer than you thought, eh? My point is, an engine is not "better" just because it has more cylinders.

PS. I know all the stuff about how it's hard to directly compare two different dynamometers, but I couldn't find a dynolabbed BMW. This is as good as it gets for now.

vitocorleone

Wow. Is that 325 chart correct? IF so, then engine-wise, the TSX blows away the BMW engine (but suffers in the power delivery to the wheels). At 4500 rpm the 325 is producing 138hp and 161 lbs torque (if I'm reading correctly), whereas the TSX is putting out about 169 hp and about 190 lbs torque (from the TOV TSX dyno). TOV peaks for TSX were 217hp and 195lbs torque. I must be missing something....

ClutchPerformer

Whoa! Sorry. I should have said that you have to look at the RED curve for the BMW. This website is advertising an intake, so the RED curves are the stock, and the BLUE curves are with the intake on (illustrates the effect of putting their intake on). I'll edit my post....

dom

We've seen higher peak HP numbers for the TSX. Sport Compact Car Dynoed it at 180HP?? we've also seen 175 I think. Dyno numbers are much like quater mile times. Until you get two cars on the same dyno at the same time, who knows?? But the bimmer is either extremly underatted or the tranny is extremly sufficient.

Saintor_RENAMED

The one that feels the best, definitely the BMW's.

fdl

What the hell are you talking about? I think those are the numbers for the new V6 accord. Go look again.

ClutchPerformer

OK, so at 4500 RPM, the BMW engine is putting out 130.1HP and 151.7 lb-ft of torque. TSX is doing 125HP and 145 lb-ft.

217HP/195TQ are way too high. Those might have been for the Accord v6.

fdl

Well, I will take those numbers with a grain of salt.

I am sure the 2 engines will be very close though, with an edge to the bmw in torque (more of it, with a peak lower in the rev range), and smooooothness. If price was no object, i'd take the bmw i6, although its very close.

But Acura doesnt need to equal a 4 year old bmw design. They needed to surpass it.

ClutchPerformer

The TSX has the lower torque peak (2800 vs. 3500). And the BMW only has 3.9 lb-ft more of it--not very much--at that higher RPM.

dom

I have to agree here, but

I don't think they could have done that considering the circumstances they were presented with. Honda made an all new Accord for Japan and Europe and decided that it would only use a 4 cylinder engine and maybe IMA down the road.

They went to the Acura division and said "want to badge it as an Acura?" They said yes but "we need more power. How about a V6?" Honda said uh, uh we'll just make the 2.4 a better engine. You can only work with what we have type of thing. I'm certain Acura brass wanted a V6 in this car but it was simply impossible.
I mean the V6 in the TL and Accord for that matter is more than a match for any V6 competition out there. Lets also not forget about weight here. If the TSX was 300lbs lighter and had 35lbs at each corner as opposed to the 50 it really has, it would easiliy outperform the 325.

gogozy

if everyone can afford an bimmer, it would lost it's appeal. by then 325i is just a so so car... hehehehehe
it's different culture, sure Honda have ability to make a better engine, they are the biggest engine manufactory on earch. but Honda's won't do it if that can't turn profit, they work for shareholder, not US.....

vitocorleone

Ok ok. Sheesh. I said I was probably missing something! I seemed to have followed the wrong link from the search page. Apologies. I bow out of that and nod to Clutch's succinct post.

"But Acura doesnt need to equal a 4 year old bmw design. They needed to surpass it." For ~$10k less? I don't think so. But I'm happy to see at least one more person realizing that the TSX is directly comparable to the 325 (though that means that the 325 should be compared to the mazda6 just like people compare the TSX).

ACS3

the bmw I6 much smoother and refined then the tsx engine and the I6 gives u power throughout the the rev range whereas the tsx u have to work to higher end to get the power compare to the I6 ... i don't know about the dyno graphs but that what i feel from driving both cars

fdl

Yes, they need to surpass it if they want to be the leader in this category, which is what this thread is all about. The TSX realisticaly sits between the 325, and the mazda 6. Comparing a tsx to a 325, is not the same as comparing an m6 to a 325. The m6 is also compared to the camry, so should we start comparing the 325 to a camry as well?


Logical reasoning 101. Perhaps I should include a Venn diagram.

vitocorleone

Pretty circles. Ooooo.

Actually, Reading Skills 101 tells me that the thread is about how the 3-series isn't a TSX. Others (I'm among the guilty) have caused it to drift from that.

The m6 reference was a bit T.O.C., referring to someone else's post on how that's what the TSX should be compared to instead of the BMW. After all the posts on how - at least stats-wise - the TSX is pretty much equal to the BMW for much less $$, I made the simple if TSX = BMW and m6 = TSX then m6 = BMW to prove how silly that prior post was. But, if you want to throw in the next step of m6 = Camry, then that'll add that much more excitement to this thread!

"Leader" has so many ways it can be interpreted. You are currently posting on a board where the TSX _is_ the leader. Lost, are you?

Buff-Daddy

No wonder, I am stuck in a fantasy dreamland for TSX owners!

I need to head back to reality where people actually understand that TSX's are to be compared to Accords and Mazda's and not with BMW's.

TSXautoXer

Hmm, I thought the Euro-R has 220hp and a 2.2L engine. Anyways, I just bought my silver TSX, love it. But speaking of BMW 3, I still think it is still a benchmark. Simply, it is RWD. It handles differently than the FWD TSX, and for some reason it feels more rigid...maybe I am wrong....

TSXautoXer

Yes, don't compare BMW 3 with TSX, orange vs apple, not gonna work.

RogerPodacter

The bottom line is this: The TSX can ONLY be compared to the 325, and it does it very well (except lack of RWD).

Personally, I would rather have a TSX with Nav then a 325 without.

And the last point which I cant beleive has not been pointed out: The interior of the 325 does not look as nice as the TSX with Navi. My friend gave me a ride in her leased 2002 coupe, and the TSX blows it away in terms of interior looks, I M O!!!!!!

TMQ

I can't believe how long the thread is. Who has time to read through all this? Obviously a lot of people do. It's fun to see people argue about which cars are better. In Redmond WA area (where Microsoft is), for a short drive, one would see many many BMWs (and MBs and Audis and Lexuses). How many owner spend hours and hours reseaching and debating? How many are "enthusiast" drivers that notice the subtle differences in handling? Just by knowing that one is driving a BMW can totally change a person's feel for the drive - there is no scientific blind test here.

Afterall, luxury cars are status symbols. People can say all they want to say about 0-60, hp, handling etc., but for the majority buyers, when they buy a BMW, it is the pride, comfort and the recognition that comes with it that really matters. That alone, contributes to much of the price difference when compared to Acuras. The price is determined by the market - obviously if no one wants it because it's overpriced, it won't be here any more. Therefore, comparing cars purely on the "features" or "performance" doesn't really make sense. By selling RSX, the goal of Acura has always been different and may always be.

Iceman

Yup. My first car.

fdl

So everyone on this board has to think the TSX is the best car in the world or what? I love my TSX as much as the next guy, but that doesnt mean I have to think there is nothing better.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread. Have fun.

ClutchPerformer

That's exactly right. And THAT'S why someone should buy a BMW over a TSX, NOT because a 325 has a better engine (because it doesn't).

ACS3

are u serious? u don't think the BMW I6 is better then the 4 banger on the tsx? the BMW I6 is one of the best in the world

ClutchPerformer

I'm very serious. And you're right, BMW I6's are the best in the world. But that doesn't automatically make them better than every other engine on the planet. Also, consider that I am not comparing this engine to another I6. The TSX engine is a 4-cyl (at which Honda is the best in the world).

Go back to page 9 of this thread. Look at the dyno charts, and read the figures I posted right after them. You will see why I don't think the 2.5L 6-cyl BMW engine is "better". Their performance is basically the same with the TSX winning on low-end torque. I'll take more low end torque over a little more "smoothness" any day of the week (and twice on Sunday).

And once again, I HAVE driven a 325i sedan so I know how it feels.

vitocorleone

"So everyone on this board has to think the TSX is the best car in the world or what? I love my TSX as much as the next guy, but that doesnt mean I have to think there is nothing better." Um, no, but thanks for illustrating my point that "Leadership" means different things to different people.

"don't compare BMW 3 with TSX, orange vs apple, not gonna work" but we just did, and the TSX comes out roughly equivalent to the 325 (better in some ways, worse in others). so, fruit aside, comparing the cars is 100% valid.

"reality where people actually understand that TSX's are to be compared to Accords and Mazda's and not with BMW's" yes, please go back to your own dreamland and count BMW's driving by (or sitting in a repair bay) as you drfit off to sleep rather than intruding on ours :-) your narrowminded, stereotypical view is extremely amusing, however, so maybe you should stay.

"if everyone can afford an bimmer, it would lost it's appeal" we'll soon find out as they introduce the 1 series in the US (next year i believe).

jumpper

First of all, I'm a TSX owner, and I love my TSX very much. I think it's the best car I ever own. However, TSX is far from 3-series in term of luxury and power. My brother has full loaded 325i, so I know the different between the two cars. The quality is much better in the 325. But for 10k less, I think Honda did a good job on TSX. Hey, my brother wishes that BMW's Nav is as good as our.

ACS3

was the 325i u drove a manual or auto? because for auto when u drive at D u can't feel all the torque ... switching to sport mode makes a huge difference ... u feel alot more torque

ClutchPerformer

It was a manual, yes. I hate automatics mostly for the reason you stated. They don't feel as immediate.

The 325 is a great car, and overall I like it more than the TSX (and that's the way it should be because the bimmer costs more). All I'm trying to say is that the 325's engine is not "better" than the TSX's engine. It's a tie. Just because an engine has more cylinders doesn't mean it's automatically better. I was just trying to get you (and others) to see that. That's all.

ClutchPerformer

This is only half true. Luxury, BMW wins. No question there. But as far as power, the TSX engine and the 325 engine are equals. Go to page 9 of this thread and look at the dyno charts and figures I posted. BMW's 2.5L I6 has no tangible advantage over Honda's 2.4L four. And since most people (like me) would prefer an engine with more low-end torque, the TSX engine has a slight advantage. These are the facts.

finalheaven

It loses in Luxury? Don't you mean it just falls behind in name and presitage? Am i mistaken or isn't Luxury account for all the standard options in the TSX...

Buff-Daddy

--------------------------------------------------------

Finalheaven - You can buy a leather jacket for $80 and you can buy a jacket for $8,000. Just because they both say leather on the tag doesn't mean they are equal. Yes, the TSX is a nice car and yes, the TSX has all of the goodies, but that is not the whole story. Like I said earlier, Hyundai has a V6 with leather, CD and HID's for under $20,000 and no one is trying to compare that to the TSX.

As far as overall fit-n-finish & quality of materials are concerned, the TSX is more affordible for a reason. There are not 5,000 postings about rattles on all of the TSX boards because it is a fluke, you skimp, you pay...

The leather is much nicer in a Bimmer, the Xenons are self-leveling (I have been told that the TSX are not) which means that every time you start the car, they self adjust up and down to find the horizon line and avoid blinding other drivers, etc. There are numerous differences between what is offered and what you get. BMW is quality across the board. I am not saying that the TSX is not, but BMW is a step up in everything, that is why they cost more.

The TSX is an awesome car for the money, but it is not equal to the BMW even if it has all of the same stuff. It is in the quality of the materials and the overall finished product. How great is a 360 watt stereo if all it does is rattle all of the cheap plastic parts around and drive you insane?

In summary, The TSX is loaded, but it is loaded with less expensive parts and materials.

And just to prove that I am not a troll or biased, I just sent in my offer for a TSX. Wether they accept it or not is another story...

finalheaven

Talking about pure luxury qualities, doesn't Mercedes top BMW. Not talking about performance or reliability but only in quality?

But i do understand what you mean. I guess the TSX isn't fully up there but i still believe it is a worthy comparision for the 325. However anyone that truly tries to compare it with the 330i is going overboard. Anyways depending again on my insurance company i might not be able to get the TSX (long story). My 2nd choice however is not the 325i but actually the MB C230 Sedan. 4 cyls are what im going for to save gas.

Buff-Daddy

I would say that MB is equal to BMW in terms of overall quality and materials with a different style. MB is the ultimate in classical, elligant and sophisticated styling. I think BMW is slightly more sporty. MB makes a great car too!

I don't really even like to compare BMW to MB because I think they are both the best at providing what their clients want. It seems that people are either MB or BMW, I am BMW myself, but my friend is 100% MB. They both make great cars that can haul ass! That new MB SL55 AMG is one of the nicest cars I have ever seen, and for $113,000, it should be!

Best of luck with whatever you get!

TMQ

If you take out BMW's prestige factor, then they are overpriced. So of course you have to pay for that.

A blindfolded test would of course be the best - (like that old Arco gas commercial) - you drive without seeing, you feel the materials with your hand, your listen, and you judge. Just knowing the car is a BMW will bias the judgement. All the car testing is just subjective opinion (while scientific testing tests hypothesis), and a lot of the published stuff are stupid opinions, like MSN's car website.

Buff-Daddy

"...and a lot of the published stuff are stupid opinions, like MSN's car website."
----------------------------------------------------------------

Funny how they are only "stupid opinions" when you do not agree with them... Think about it...

I am willing to bet that the mark-up on the BMW is the same as the mark-up on the TSX. It is just a fact that if you use cheaper materials, you can build a car for less and therefore sell the car for less.

Let the car speak for itself. If the TSX is as great as everyone here says it is, then it will obviously win all of the awards and the admiration and recognition of the entire auto industry.

All I know is that BMW has a neck full of gold that would make
Mr. T jealous...

pansuria

I can't believe this thread is still going on.

I just purchased my TSX, I think it's an incredible car for the money. While I could have spend more money on a car, I wanted to save up for a bigger home. However, if I had a lot more $$$ to spend on the car and was willing to spend more $$$ on repairs/maintence, I would certainly have gotten a 330xi or a M3.

There's no shame in a 27k TSX not being as good as a more expensive BMW. It's not expected/supposed to be better than a car that costs more!

I for one, am really glad that people have so many great cars to choose from. This has to be a golden age for automobiles.

moda_way

This is the most absurb thing I've ever heard!!! Personally, I hope Acura does accept your offer and you finally find out how very comparable the 2 cars are.

Your comments are completely unfounded. How do I know? Because I have the documents from BMW about the actual costs of their packages. The BMW is severely marked up b/c that is what people will pay, not because the materials are better. BMW uses just as much plastic fasteners and clips as any car company. Remember, BMW offers Leatherette (which is actually nicer than their real leather).

If you're so concerned about the rattle on the Acura, how about you go find the threads on BMW using plastic impellers on their water pumps. Sorry, I'll take a rattle over a cheaply outsourced part.

I love BMW and am upset they couldn't see their way to dealing on the car with me and no, I wasn't trying to get the BMW 325 for the cost of the Acura TSX, I was being reasonable. But holy crap your arguements are so unfounded.

Acura simply has given BMW a good reason to bring in the 1 series and make the 3 series "more luxury".