Iceman

fdl, I have heard this discussion before. Remember BeingIS300? You sound just like him. C&D published the TSX test results and BeingIS300 blew his stack.

The TSX is a fast car. Get over it.

Bear Trap

OK, I'm calmer now - you just hit a nerve coming down so strong. Like I've said twice, I was surprised by these numbers and know the 330 can do better. Maybe it was a rainy day or something like that. Maybe it is a typo and was actually the 325.

I checked C&D online and they have a comparison article with the 330 that month, but don't show any numbers online for that article.

fdl

Iceman, we are trying to have a discussion here. Dont go throwing blanket statements around and dont you dare compare me to BeingIS300!

The TSX is a fast car?...ok...Compared to what? We arent talking about an is300, or a 325 here. You think its faster than a 330? Ignorance is bliss I guess. If someone posted that C&D clocked an M3 at 8.0 sec to 60, i guess that would mean the TSX is faster.

Use your head.

fdl

Ahh..didnt mean to.

Not to prolong this ...but for your reference...

Here is an article on the 2000 330i. The newer models should actually put up better numbers. It read 0-60 as 6.1, 1/4 mile as 14.8.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=3223

Bear Trap

Yea, I'd believe that.

Iceman

BMW has gotten soft over the years. I am not so sure that the newer 330i's are necessarily faster. Also, the sports suspension is standard on the TSX, optional on the BMW, so the skid pad results are maybe not out of line. And last, the October 2002 comparison test that Bear Trap was quoting from, was a comparison of automatics.

I have no doubt that a 330i with a manual tranny and sports suspension would blow the doors off a TSX. However, that's not what C&D was testing in October 2002.

Buff-Daddy

I tried to let this one go, but it is getting ridiculous again.

fdl, you are honest, wise beyond your years and you obviously know something about cars.

Iceman, you are making a fool of yourself. "330i getting soft?", that is a good one. Well, this car you call "soft" has been kicking the competitions ass for God know how long without breaking a sweat. So if the "Best in Class" is soft, what does that make your TSX and all of the other cars in this class? POSERS!

Making a point about the TSX having a "standard sport suspension" is just too funny. What sport suspension is that? Why don't you tell us something about this amazing sport suspension, and try not to quote the only thing you know, THE BROCHURE!

I am willing to bet that the standard 330i suspension will outperform the amazing TSX suspension on any test at any time. I can just see you cruising down the street as someone in the back seat says, "wow, it is kind of a bumpy ride back here." Oh, that is just the sport suspension, it's kind of a rough, but it really helps out on my 0-60 times.

Can we please start comparing the TSX to realistic cars, like the Mazda 6? Thank you...

Iceman

I see you've also bought into the BMW mystique, which is why they are able to overprice their cars. BMW's are great cars, but not for the price.

Regarding BMW's getting softer: This was inevitable. Posers want luxury cars, not sports sedans. BMW delivers both, but not necessarily in the same car. You don't believe C&D's skid pad and accelleration results either, I take it. I thought C&D was supposed to be biased TOWARDS BMW. Their skid pad figure from the same article that quoted 6.1 seconds 0-60 was .83g, which is NOT AS GOOD as the TSX at .85g. Put a decent set of wheels and tires on the TSX and it hammers the BMW in the corners!

Here's a link to a follow-up test by Edmunds that complains about the changes to the BMW' 330i's steering to satisfy the posers:

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2001/bmw...content...BMW*

Buff-Daddy

I tried to let this one go, but it is getting ridiculous again.

fdl, you are honest, wise beyond your years and you obviously know something about cars.

Iceman, you are making a fool of yourself. "330i getting soft?", that is a good one. Well, this car you call "soft" has been kicking the competitions ass for God know how long without breaking a sweat. So if the "Best in Class" is soft, what does that make your TSX and all of the other cars in this class? POSERS!

Making a point about the TSX having a "standard sport suspension" is just too funny. What sport suspension is that? Why don't you tell us something about this amazing sport suspension, and try not to quote the only thing you know, THE BROCHURE!

I am willing to bet that the standard 330i suspension will outperform the amazing TSX suspension on any test at any time. I can just see you cruising down the street as someone in the back seat says, "wow, it is kind of a bumpy ride back here." Oh, that is just the sport suspension, it's kind of a rough, but it really helps out on my 0-60 times.

Can we please start comparing the TSX to realistic cars, like the Mazda 6? Thank you...

Iceman

Is that all you've got?

ACS3

this thread is funny ... i have both the 330xi and the tsx and honestly i don't know why u guys are comparing the two ... it makes me laugh when i hear people post about how the tsx can beat or very close to the 330 and stuff like that ... i am not saying tsx is a bad car in fact is a great car for the money and i am sure people would take tsx over 3 series for factors such as money, need, and other factors ... but money aside i am sure everyone here would take a 330 over a tsx ... so stop saying how the tsx is better then the bmw in performance ... is a great value and great car but u should compare it to cars like the mazda 6 not a 330

Buff-Daddy

What more do I need? I thought I would let you off easy since you are obviously outmatched. I am sorry that you have never had the chance to drive a BMW, especially the 330i, because if you ever had, you would understand how embarrassing this comparison is...

I hope you meet up with a 330i at a stop-light someday. Even if it's a soccer-mom taking her 5 year old to practice and she doesn't even notice you, you will still not be able to hang with her.

BMW

:pee:Iceman
.............

Iceman

Do you guys remember SeaTSX's thread on the dark side about how he put decent wheels and tires on his TSX, took his car to the racetrack, and beat any number of supposedly better cars including a previous-generation S4? You could beat him in the straightaways, but he could beat you in the corners. The skidpad numbers that the TSX puts up are no fluke, even with 4-season tires. The 330's engine is undeniably stronger, but not the 325's. The Mazda6 can't even beat an Accord in a comparison test, so why are you even bringing it up here?

Bear Trap

True in many ways. One thing to acknowledge and get past is that there is a big spread in the 3-series. The 330xi is a major player with AWD and a very healthy engine. I would believe the C&D stats for the 330i was an auto, and that is why the times are higher than expected, but why would the skidpad be low? Is there a luxury package with the auto that softens the suspension? The TSX brakes aren't the greatest and yet the BMW didn't better it - another oddity

In fact, if I were to pick a BMW, short of the M3, I'd have picked the 330xi. That is a car that can truely set itself apart. If someone else were paying for it or I won the lotto, then I would have got it for sure - why not? (Naw - I'd do the M3 for sure if I won the lotto)

Anyway, the 325 is the best match for the TSX, but that isn't as challenging as the 330 and I guess that is why I started on it when I first saw the C&D 330 stats. Comparing a Mazda 6 wouldn't be as challenging. Some might even consider it slumming. It surely wouldn't be as entertaining.

Buff-Daddy

Do you guys remember that "1" guy who "said" he put on decent wheels and tires and beat any number of supposedly better cars?

Are you kidding me? Is that supposed to be a legitimate argument for your case? 1 guys fantasy day at the track? Unbelievable...

How about year after year of being on Car and Drivers 10 best list, how about being named "Best in Class" by every single car magazine that tests cars on the face of the earth? How about laying off the crack-pipe for awhile and coming back to reality...

That's right, TSX, Mazda 6, Honda Accord... Good start, keep going...

vitocorleone

comparing the tsx to the 330 is a bit.. um... interesting. but to a 325 - then the person that paid the extra $$ (or not if they didn't get any options and if you could find that) for the 325 is pretty much a sucker. look, the 325 engine is OLD by car standards - why is it so hard for so many people to accept that it has been tied or beaten by a 4-cyl? i mean, next year with the new model, it'll once again more than likely beat the crap out of the competition... but NOT this year!

so, if a tsx can beat a 325, shouldn't the 325 be compared to the mazda6 instead, or at least in addition to? i think so. oh, wait, that was bmw blasphemy! it's just a car. really.

larchmont

No, ACS, not everyone. I know.

But, please stick around. We're gonna be needing you.

Buff-Daddy

Well how about we wait to see if one single solitary car magazine puts the TSX in the same league with the 325i instead of having "you" Mr.Nobody tell us the TSX is better. The fact that no one has come forward to make a statement like this after this car has been available for 3 month in the US market kind of proves that this car isn't living up to the hype. If this car was a Bimmer beater, every single car mag would have been all over it already.

And how about the 325xi, isn't that a nice little number. You should have opted for the all-wheel-drive on your TSX... Oh, wait, that's right, the TSX doesn't offer that feature. Everyone keeps saying that this car has it all, but it seems to be missing a few things that BMW, Audi and even Subaru for God sake have been offering it's customers for years.

Maybe BMW just gives it's customers what it wants. A "Best in Class" vehicle with every feature available "if" you want it. The TSX tells you what you get and what you "have" to pay for wether you like/want it or not. I think they did a great job with the TSX, but BMW builds a superior product that you can customize for your individual needs... That is not an opinion, it is a fact proven by every car magazine on earth.

Looks like the TL will fall just a bit short with the all-wheel-drive that was rumored too... Maybe someday Acura will figure it out...

larchmont

You mean ME?

Cool.

vitocorleone

No, I want to be Mr Nobody! No fair, hogging the name!

Buy into hype and marketing all you want. The stats and numbers don't lie - the 325 is outdated because the "competition" finally caught up. Once again, your arguments would hold more water if you could accept the truth and then said "just wait until the new model comes out and BMW 32x will be on top once again". I just don't get the whole blind adherence to the hype when, with some research and reading, you would see. I think you'd also possibly have a valid point about how both cars "feel" when performing, in that the BMW 325 may feel better than the tsx when performing hard. Oh, and the 325xi is a pig in terms of performance (excluding foul weather, of course!) - this was a car i was considering.

Fyi - another equally valid way of looking at "build a car to your needs" is "rapes you blind for every little option you both need and want to feel like you are getting your money's worth" - all a matter of preference, and both seem like good arguments to me.

Buff-Daddy

--------------------------------------------------------------------

No, vitocorleone is Mr. Nobody...

Sorry, we will think of another name for you...
Maybe, Mr. Optimist (who can find hope for the TSX in the face of repeated defeat)

Buff-Daddy

All of these superior performance numbers have to add up to something? Where the heck are all of the car experts to tell us that the TSX is the new King? Maybe it's a conspiricy? I heard BMW, Audi and Lexus were all so scared over the TSX's performance that they bought all of the car magazines just so they wouldn't publish the fact that the TSX has taken over.

OR, the more rational senario is that you guys see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear? The TSX is not a secret to the car industry. Believe me, if there was even a chance that this car was a Bimmer beater, there are thousands of writers out there who have been waiting for this and they would be all over it! BMW has had a target on it's back for years and yet no one is coming forward to lead the charge. Sorry...

vitocorleone

So, based on C&D's review, the 325 is 0.2 seconds faster. Wow. So much performance for $10k more similarly equipped, and the tsx even comes with worse tires. And the 325 got 0.01 better on the skidpad. Wow.

Again, I'm talking 325. Comparing to the 330 is, as I said earlier... interesting, to say the least.

Oh, and "it’s the purest form of precision in its class", which includes the 325. How can the 325 be best in class if the tsx is? oh, wait, once again i'm making sense so i should stop when talking about bmw's... ??

Let me restate: The TSX has caught up to the BMW 325, such that it is not worth buying a 325 until the new model comes out, upon which time I expect it to spank the TSX.

'Nough said. Been fun. G'nite.

Buff-Daddy

"it’s the purest form of precision in its class", which includes the 325. How can the 325 be best in class if the tsx is?
----------------------------------------------------------------

Oh Geez, you showed me! That settles it alright, the TSX is the "Best in Class", you heard it here...

I cannot wait until the next 4-5 car head-to-head shootout comes along. I'll be suprised if they rank the TSX ahead of the V6 Accord. After all, the Accord is cheaper with similar options right? And I know how you guys preach about price & options!

Until tomorrow...

moda_way

I stated this before and I'll state it again, I've owned a 325i and it was, without a doubt, a great car. I definitely got every bit as much value out of it as my friends did out of their Hondas/Acuras.

I also find it very intriguing that people are making a comparison of the 330 to the TSX. However, there has been some reference to a 3 series performance which is ambiguous at best. The 3 series platforms (330 and 325) are basically the same, however, they are different in handling characteristics. The only close comparison to the TSX is the 325, end-of-story.

Having said that, the 325, being $6-$8k with comparable options, is not a significantly better car than the TSX. I've driven them all and own a TSX for these reasons:

1. BMW does nickel and dime you (example, who the hell charges for Metallic paint.... BMW!!!)

2. The 325 does out handle the TSX, but you really get the best performance differentiator out of the 325 with the Performance package.

3. I personally like having a moonroof in my TSX... they do add value. There again, you gotta add that in to the 325.

4. An inline 6 is soooooo sweet, trust me. But at 2.5 Liters, ~184 BHP and 175 ft lbs torque, the TSX puts the same numbers down, but at different RPMs... That's a driver's preference.

5. Quality. I'm sorry, but there is just no way to differentiate the two. Acura doesn't have enough info around the TSX and the 325 platform and engine are only 2 years old in the CURRENT configuration.

In the end, there is but 1 thing you must decide on, what feels right to you. I'm still getting used to driving the TSX, but I wouldn't trade it for a 325, that in comparison would cost me another $8k (and that is a real number I went to the table with that the dealer felt he was giving the car away to me).

BMW's are great cars and the TSX is giving BMW something to ponder.

If you are a leasing type person, forget the arguement of this thread b/c you never truly own a car long enough TO FIND VALUE!!!! Value is simply the ownership of a fully depreciated asset and if you lease, you NEVER get the benefit of NOT having a car payment. You never even have an asset b/c leasing doesn't hit your balance sheet, it is just a cash outflow on you income statement.

1SICKLEX

Okay, I don't feel like going back and reading but whoever is comparing a 330 to a TSX is smoking crack. Whoever is comparing a TSX to a 330xi is smoking lotsa crack.

325-TSX is a very fair comparison.

ClutchPerformer

Why don't you give the car a chance to get on the "10 Best List" first? Then you can use that as an argument. You have doubt? The RSX is on there for much the same reasons.

And actually, a G35 beat the shit out of a 330 in a Motor Trend comparison test (the one with those two and the CTS). I remember it well because it was so surprising. The only thing the BMW had going for it was gas mileage. If you'd like the issue number, you'll have to wait until I get home.

BMW is not God. They make great cars and they make the BEST engines in the world. But the current 325 is not substantially better than the TSX. Why does this bother you so much? The 330 is a whole 'nother story, and you're correct that it's silly to make that comparison. Let's let that one die, guys.

1SICKLEX

I agree.
Is it better? THe TSX forum will say yes, the BMW board will say no.

larchmont

Hey, mod -- here's a serious Q that a lot of people are gonna think is stupid, but since I don't:

At this point, would you get rid of your TSX for a 325 if it was even up?

fdl

Well it looks like common sense has set in and most agree that to compare the TSX to the 330 is silly. So lets not waste our time with that anymore.

Comparing to the 325 is more reasonable, although the 325 is still the better car in performance, though arguably not by much. The Acura has things going for it as well, possibly better reliability, better winter traction, and def better value. One thing to keep in mind though, even for those that feel the TSX has caught up to the 325... the new 3 series is around the corner so the bar will be raised once again. Current 3 series is already 4 years old. If Acura really truely wanted to compete with BMW they had to raise the bar themselves, which I dont think they have. But they are definately moving in the right direction, and in time ...who knows.

BMW invented the sports sedan, and as IMO are still the kings .... for now.

moda_way

If you are saying I could config a 325i with Sport Package, roughly the same color, heated leather seats, Xenons, moonroof, spoiler, Harmon-Kardon stereo, and 6MT, for the same price I paid for my TSX, sure..

I would've gone for the BMW to begin with. I've already stated I miss not having my BMW, but frankly the TSX has everything I wanted at a price that nobody could match.

As for giving up my TSX now that I have it.... I haven't thought about it because it is such an impossibility and wouldn't ever be a real question to ponder, so unless you are offering me a deal to consider, I would still say no.:thumbsdn:


******EDIT***********
Acutally, I think the Nissan Maxima takes that honor, but I understand what you are trying to say.

Besides, any claims of competition with the new 3 series is irrelevant. BMW admittedly has take the 3 series into the 5 series market, which is why they are introducing the 1 series back in (entry level market) and the 6 series in the coming year. The 3 has matured in its current market.

Santacruz

Backed by relability and value the TSX has carved out a nice spot in the segment. From here TSX can begin to carve away at the small performance and prestige gap of the BMW. It's just a matter of time Buff-Daddy.

Buff-Daddy

It is just a matter of time Santacruz, a short time before the new 3-Series comes out and puts another 5 years of distance between BMW and the competition...

No one here is trying to argue value for your dollar, after all, that is what Acura was trying to accomplish here. Hyundai makes a 4 door sedan with leather, moon-roof and CD with a V6 for around $17,000 and you don't see me trying to compare it to the TSX just because it has many of the same features for less money. The Accord has a V6 too and pimped out for about $2,000 less, but I wouldn't try to compare that either, because I know it is a different feel. But that is the argument that many of you are trying to make. The Accord is far closer to the TSX than the TSX is to the BMW.

Acura gave a large segment what it wanted. A nice looking car with many of the popular features at an attainable price. In order to make it BMW's equal, they would have had to put more money into the entire car (V6, All-Wheel-Drive Option, Better Tires, Brakes, less plastic behind the scenes, etc.) and then it would have been the same price as the 3-Series. If that were the case, you all know that you would have bought the BMW or would have to look elsewhere because it was too expensive.

To bring back a stupid (however appropriate) saying from the 90's... "Denile ain't just a river in Egypt"

ACS3

sorry i know comparing a 330xi and tsx is crazy but i just want to show whoever compared the 330 to the tsx before how funny it is

and for people who are stating how the tsx beat the 325 on the skipad and and straight line ... there are alot of factors like weather, road condition, the cars configeration (tires, fuel, options) that can change the numbers ... and u should test drive a 325 first before u compare the two cars because the 325 don't look impressive on papers but when u drive it is a different story ... is about the feeling u get driving the car not just performance number ... i was watching best motoring and the lancer evo beat the bmw m3 and ferreri 360 on the track but does that make the evo a better car? NO! it all depends what u need ... if u are looking for pure performance then get the evo if u want better driving experience then get the m3 and ferreri ... same with the 325i and tsx comparasion ... the tsx has alot of standard features the 325 don't have ... the 325 on the other has less standard features but for me just the I6 made up for all the standard features ... so it really personally perference and what u want ... and as for performance i don't know which one is better ... even if the tsx can get u from point a to b faster then the 325 the 325 will be alot more fun to get from paoint a to b ... i test drove many cars such as g35, g35c, c320, etc ... some might be faster then the bmw but none can match the overall driving experience bmw gives ... just my opinion

fdl

BMW invented the sports sedan in 1968, with the BMW 2002.

moda_way

Well I could also make the argument that the 1500 was the first Sport Sedan since the 2002 was merely an advancement of that car.

Fact remains, the definition of Sport Sedan can go back as far as 1950 for the Mercury Sports Sedan. The 2002 is only an example my friend.

ClutchPerformer

I don't understand why the BMW 2.5L I6 is so much better than the 2.4L 4-cyl in the TSX. Can someone explain? Does anyone have a dyno sheet for the 325 engine? Maybe that'd explain a few things. I have driven the 325i. If it is a better engine, it's not by much. I don't get it.

dom

An I6 is apparently perfectly balanced. While the 2.4 in our TSX's have large balance shafts to keep them from shaking. This means no harshness and I would guess a better engine feel.

The 2.4 still makes more power. I don't think its so much that the engine is better, it may have something to do with BMW being able to more effectively put the power to use.

Santacruz

Don't get me wrong Buff-Daddy I agree that the BMW has a performance edge over the TSX...but the assumption that the new 325 is going to put a five year gap between it and the TSX is complete and wild speculation. It's also complete speculation that a TSX with a wider array of options would be priced the same as BMW. I doubt with Honda's deep availability of parts that they would need to match BMW's pricing. Let's try to stick to reality here.

I guess my point is that the TSX has, out-of-the-gate, positioned itself very solidly with or ahead of european brands (read as Saab & Audi) which have spent years trying to catch BMW. With just some minor tweaks to a european Accord, Honda is making you feel compelled to spend your time in TSX forums defending the 3 series. Pretty impressive really.

fdl

Not sure about the 325 specifically, but BMW makes great inline 6 engines.

Here is what Wards has to say about the i6 out of the 330, which made its top ten list. Obviously the 325 is quote a step below the 330 though.

http://subscribers.wardsauto.com/mic...1004&siteid=26

Here is the complete list for 2003

http://subscribers.wardsauto.com/Mic...=1004&srtype=1