Bear Trap

I'm so sick of hearing how the TSX isn't a 3-series. I'm glad it isn't a 3-series because it would cost $10k more than it does now, be in the shop ten times more often and be in every other driveway.

I think the next 3-series review should state the 3-series is no TSX!!!

NOVAwhiteTypeS

well the 3 series IS the benchmark for entry level luxury sedans..

Bear Trap

That was true in the past, but I think the TSX is now the benchmark. With so many favorable reviews being written and people chosing the TSX over the 3-series, it is only a matter of time before the TSX is declared the benchmark.

fdl

I love my TSX, ..but ..i'm afraid not.

larchmont

IMO, Bear may be right in that TSX has the potential to be a new benchmark (as an "overall" car it has some positives that the BMW just doesn't) -- but this would never happen so fast.

Bear Trap

The BMW has a lot of snob appeal that some people can't do without and that is the only factor I see as a problem for the TSX to overcome. However, coming from a person that could have bought a 3- or 5-series, I bought the TSX simply because it is a better overall car regardless of money. Reviews are even stating that, so it is just a matter of time before someone has the balls to write it.

larchmont

Me2; in fact I did have a BMW 3 for a long time.

IMO, the BMW does have just a little more than TSX on some aspects that a lot of people care about (not just "snob appeal").
But overall, I agree. In my book it's not the equal of TSX.

finalheaven

One huge thing im thinking about is that the TSX is not a 3series but yet comes close. However it won't be close once in 05-06 the new models come out. When they are projecting around 260hp v6 engines to match the g35 i guess then the TSX will be out of the running. The TL will most likely match that pace but however isn't TL a much bigger car then the 3 series? Im guessing a type-s will be required by that time with at least 240hp? =i

Bear Trap

BMW is moving the 3-series up a notch and it will likely grow in size, so the TL will probably be the closest competitor then and the TSX will be out of that league. I've read that BMW will be bringing in a new 1-series that will be in the sub 30k range loaded and be similar in size to the TSX. That will probably be the closest thing BMW offers to the TSX, but I'd bet it won't even come as close as the current 325 except it will be in the same price range.

Roadrunner_RENAMED

Read the MSN Cdn version post.
On the conclusion statement he says the R version is already in
the pipeline for the Japanese/Euro market.
That's your Beemer beater!
Actually I'm glad that all cars keep getting better. It would be boring if we still drove a standard 1955 Chevy!

Bear Trap

But isn't the TSX basically the Accord Euro R but with more power and features than the Euro R?

Crazy Bimmer

BlackTSXer

i think so... but it can only get better

Lorne Miller

...benchmarks can be changed, who said that BMW owned the position for life?
...I agree with those who've said they're glad the TSX isn't more BMW like...with their new stylist at the helm, I feel they're going to be in for some rough weather ahead, the new 5 series is, IMHO, a hideous thing...I read somewhere that Bangle has been told to keep his hands off the 3, the shareholders must be a bit worried...

Lorne Miller

finalheaven

this might be the new 3 series who knows.

finalheaven

The 3 series will not gain that much size so that it will compete with the TL. The TL more or less competes with the 5 series. As for the new upcoming 3-series im sure that Honda/Acura will do something by then.

Buff-Daddy

BEAR "shut your" TRAP

You have obviously never owned a BMW. They have not been on Car & Driver's 10 best forever because they are overpriced cars that break down all of the time. Once you own one, it is hard to adjust to anything else. They always have been and always will be the benchmark.

The TSX is one hot car and probably one of the best values for the money on the road today. I hope you enjoy every second that you are in your TSX, but for now you are a rookie picking a fight with the heavyweight champ. Pay your dues, learn from your mistakes, fine tune your talents and someday, down the road, you might earn a title shot!

Until then, keep your mouth shut and your ears open. The public and the professionals will decide when you are ready...

BarryH

I just traded in an MDX last month and am returning my leased TL-S in September. I doubt seriously if I'd buy an Acura again. They're good cars and deliver a lot for the money, but face it - you've got to give up something when you're paying $5-8K less than a similar car. The quality of the interior materials, paint quality, transmission issues, warped rotors, and numerous rattles and squeaks show Honda/Acura engineers their cars only to the degree that they absolutely have to in order to get people to purchase them. Before you flame me, remember I'm coming out of two different late model Acura's. I'm going European from this point forward. And before everyone starts chanting the "reliability" rant, check out the posts on acura-cl.com, acura-tl.com, and acuramdx.org regarding multiple failed transmissions, repeated warped rotors, paper thin paint, and sunroof rattles that have been a known issue to Honda/Acura for years. Acura is a value leader, not an engineering leader, and has a ways to go before they're a "benchmark".

iNteGraz92

iNteGraz92

and with his one and only post, barryh goes on w/ his super european car that will break down in 5 years. also, if anyone wants to cry 'don't talk until you own/drive one', please, don't even bother. my dad has a 93 525 and that thing is a piece of CRAP. the engine is loud as hell, a/c compressor is retarded, interior is falling to pieces, bunch of electrical probs.

ALL cars have pros and cons, bottom line. and buffy daddy bimmers ARE overpriced. :P

Bear Trap

I knew it would just be a matter of time before we got the trolls out of the woodwork. I'm surprised it took so long. I admit the 3 is a fine car and was worthy of being a benchmark, but it isn't worth it any more. Who the hell are you to tell me to shut up? Sounds like I've hit a nerve. A little too sensitive are you? I have my opinion and you have yours - so be it. I guess if I had made the mistake of buying a BMW, then I'd probably feel like I have to troll other boards to defend it too. I suggest you read the reviews, the professionals are lining up behind the TSX. Like I said, it's only a matter of time before someone declares the king is dead.

In Consumer Guide, the TSX scored a high score of 62 in the near luxury class

From MotorWeek: "But we'll overlook that as our superbly equipped Acura TSX carries a base price of only $26,990 with either transmission. The only option is the $2,000 navigation system, so our test car topped out at $28,990. That undercuts comparable A4's, 3-Series, and G35s in price. Moreover, the Acura TSX is also competitive with them in every other measure from performance to comfort. And it likely will be more reliable than any of them. "

Car and Driver: "So forget all the BMW-fighter stuff and be thankful for the return of this particularly satisfying brand of Japanese sports sedan. Like we said: an utter failure at being a BMW copy." (The reviewer thinks it's a good thing to not copy BMW)

Edmunds: "
Nothing in the class comes close to the extensive standard features list, leaving the TSX way ahead of the game when you consider the value equation. Looks and prestige can, and do, count for a lot in this segment, but anyone who drives the TSX is likely to think long and hard about whether they really need anything more than what this sedan has to offer. "

And the list goes on and on.

1killercls

oWN3D

Bear Trap

These boards have always attracted a narrow segment of the owner population, and are not representative of the entire owner population. I wish you luck, but I think you'll find the grass isn't always greener on the other side. The real surveys show BMW is far behind Acura in reliability. Don't put much weight on those that make the most noise on these boards, they don't represent everyone. I had a '01 CLS for two years and never had a problem with the transmission. Make sure you check out the other boards and you'll probably find the same situation with people ranting about their problems.

Check out this link, it shows a huge difference between BMW and Honda/Acura: http://www.autooninfo.net/ReliabilityPercentranks.htm

BarryH

I have about 1K posts on the other Acura sites. I've owned two Acura's for three years. What's your experience? Again, they weren't bad cars - I got what I paid for. In the case of the TL-S, I thought I was getting the engineering and build quality of a $40K car for $33K - my bad. Unless Acura has come up with some super secret manufacturing technique that allows them to use the same materials and designs of more expensive cars and sell them for less, something's being scrimped on somewhere. I've owned Acura's and European cars, there's a big difference. But the difference is important enough to me to pay the couple of thousand bucks and get the European car. If you're happy that's great, that's why so many different car manufacturers stay in business. Like someone else posted, you have to live with a car for a while to really understand what makes it different. I drove a TSX for a couple of days when my MDX was in the shop before I traded it. It's a great little car, but it's not a BMW. But in its defense, it's also not priced that way.

BarryH

There are multiple people on both the TL and CL boards who are on their third transmission. Acura extended the warranty to 100K miles. There are sticky posts at the top of both forums about starting class action suits against Honda/Acura. Are you seriously telling me that it's an isolated problem being exagerated by a few people? The TL's been out since '99 and the CL since '01. The sunroofs were rattling when the first car rolled off the assembly line. Instead of fixing the problem, Acura issued a TSB for every model year instructing the dealer to put tape on the roof when the customer complains. I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen to other brands also, but it makes statements like "I wish you luck with that European car" a little oxymoronic.

Buff-Daddy

This car is 3 months old and you want it to be recognized as the best in class!?!?! That just shows how ignorant you are. You didn't hit a nerve, you are just making a foolish statement and I called you on it.

I am not a troll, I am thinking about buying a TSX, but I would not be buying it because it is the best in class, I would buy it because it "might" be good enough to satisfy my needs for less money. I currently own an 1999 Acura CL 3.0 and a 2002 BMW X5, so I own both Japanese and German. I have been very happy with both vehicles and they are too different to compare head to head. I have driven everything in this class and they are all very nice cars. I like different things about different cars.

But people like you need a reality check every now and then. Initial reviews have been positive, but come on, no one knows anything about this car yet. No long term numbers, testing, reliability, satisfaction ratings, NOTHING! But since you have one and you like it, then it must be better than the BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, Etc.

The truth is that since Acura's are more affordable, they usually end up being people’s 1st nice/new car. They get excited, they are proud and they make a statement like, "The 3-Series is no TSX".

I'm glad you are excited, you have a really nice car that will (hopefully) serve you well for years (although no one really knows) but keep your head out of the clouds and your feet on the ground. You can talk as tough as you like, but we all know that this cars goal is "best value in it's class" and not "Best in Class". And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If Acura was serious about knocking off the others, they would have given the TSX a V6 so it would be comparing apples to apples, but they went with the 4 to make it more attractive in a different way. That was the best thing they could have done. Acura is using their head to win over business. Their success will be selling a lot of cars, not trying to knock BMW off their throne.

larchmont

I agree with Bear Trap in terms of the basic principles. But, although I'm up there with TSX's biggest fans, I've got to say that this C&D write-up was ambiguous in some aspects, including this quote (which how the review ended). We couldn't agree if this was praise or put-down of the TSX. I'm not sure myself.

Bear Trap

I never said Acuras never had any problems, most cars do to some extent, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease is the point I was making. The Consumer Reports rating for the '01 CL did not give the transmission a low rating, as you would imply it should. I put more value in this than what I read on these boards. And if you want to quote me, do so correctly. I said "I wish you luck, but I think you'll find the grass isn't always greener on the other side". That's not an oxymoron, just the facts. When we buy cars, it's a crapshoot that we hope to get a good one. Even good car makers let some bad cars get through. It's just how many bad ones get through that sets the reputation. European makes as a whole are not nearly as reliable as Honda. It is not just luck that Honda and Acura have a reputation for outstanding quality.

provench

I knew this thread would be lively as soon as I saw the title

I think the TSX vs. 325i is pretty much a good comparison. I think where the TSX is not equipped to match up is the 330i. I think Acura is going to try to compete with the 330i and 530 type BMW's with the TL, but the TSX would give anyone shopping for the 325 something to think about ... you can load of one those things up with the TSX options and get to $35K in a hurry. I hope you don't mind paying for RWD I have just not caught on to the benefits of RWD for 95% of the driver's on public roads ... the TSX is a car for the public road enthusiast and not for the tracks ... HOWEVER with some money ... it could be quite a track monster.

Bear Trap

This car is a year old (or more?) in Europe and Japan, not the three months you say. There is no one authority on cars, so it all comes down to opinions. I said my opinion and I stand by it. You didn't call me on anything!?!?!

This isn't my first new or nice car. I've bought 17 cars, 9 of them new, many of which I was shopping against a European brand but haven't picked a European brand yet (The Spitfire was four years used and I spent more time under it than in it - big mistake).

Everything else boils down to the fact that the TSX is sufficiently different from everything else, offers more for less and is making people think twice about the class definition.

I will admit, a blanket statement about the 3-series as a whole may have been too broad as provench points out. The only 3-series that applies to a comparison with the TSX is the 325. Any car series that can range from 30k to 50k is way too broad to be put into a single class.

BarryH

I wasn't quoting you, I was quoting the kid whose daddy drives the Bimmer. He said "barryh goes on w/ his super european car that will break down in 5 years". Actually, what you said made me realize something. If I bought a Civic or an Accord, my expectations would be that I was getting good, solid, reliable transportation. That's more or less the Honda marketing message. Acura's sort of between a rock and a hard place. Unlike Lexus which aims so much higher than Toyota and charges accordingly, Acura takes the middle road - sort of Honda "plus". Both my Acura's were good cars, but I let the marketing elevate my expectations too high. As I said before, I got what I paid for. Also, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an Acura to a friend, just with the caveate that it is what it is. I troll the BMW, Audi, VW, Infiniti, Volvo, and Lexus boards. What's unique about the Acura boards is the way other cars have to be made "bad" in order for Acura's to be "good". The TSX (or any other Acura) can be a good car without having to slam other cars in the process.

Iceman

Sorry buddy. They are overpriced cars, and (according to Consumer Reports) the 3-series reliability is below average.
Also, everyone here has a right to speak his/her opinion. You don't get to decide when someone has to shut up.

fdl

A little harsh there Buff! be nice

But I do kinda agree with you, the BMW IMO is the better car. The TSX should be more reliable, and is the better value for sure. It is also a great car and extremely well-rounded.

The BMW is also a hell of a lot more $$$, so its not even really a fair comparison.

ySL

hahahaha...... I'm sorry.... but B-Diddy just laid the smackdown on u Mr. Bear. I hope no one gets upset by how truthful that quote really is, to some people.

I'm a happy and a very satisfied TSX owner but you guys are all smokin if you think the TSX is better than a Bimmer.

Honda reliability and affordability is very nice (and let's face it, those are the two main reasons why we got the TSX along with its decent looks), but a Bimmer is way nicer...

larchmont

Barry, I don't know about any other Acura boards. I gather that you've spent some time over there. But regarding this particular board, this criticism doesn't apply, and in your saying this, you're as guilty of ignorant bashing as is anyone who bashes you unfairly.

If you give yourself the benefit of any kind of overview of this board, you'll see that the great majority of us recognize the goodness and greatness of other cars, and many of us here, including a lot of people who own Acuras, are upfront about wishing that they had BMW's or MB's or Porsches, etc.

But when we talk about BMW's or MB's having disappointing reliability, or about the IS300 having 0-60 times that are no better than those of TSX, or Audis and Volvos being notorious for all kinds of things that their enthusiasts are in denial about, we're just talking facts. When some of us talk about preferring Acuras to BMW's or whatever, we're just expressing our subjective preferences, which are not surprising given that this is an Acura board.

But to say that we just make other cars "bad" so that Acuras can be "good" is just a misrepresentation of what's on here. And the beauty of this is, it's all right here, in black and white, for anyone to see who cares to really take a look.

The reason I'm taking the trouble to say all this is that you're obviously intelligent and you obviously know your cars. I hope you'll take the trouble to consider us a little more fairly.

P.S. (edit) For example, look at FDL's post right up there. It's a perfect example.

reader1

I have always liked the Lemon-Aid Guides, because they stress reliability & value as well as handling & first impressions, and because they tell it like it is. For example, they said about the Ford Focus "it is so poorly made, you risk both your life and your wallet if you drive one".

They were the first to point out the recent drop in Toyota quality, the exploding "Ford" tires, and the surge of safety-related defects in the Civics.

Nice things it said about the 3.2 TL: "impressive acceleration ... well constructed with quality mechanical and body components ... handling is exceptional ... responsive precise steering"

Not so nice: "as with Toyota, Honda/Acura powertrain reliability has deteriorated considerably over the past several years, though not at the same rate as Ford and Chrysler ... as you have seen with Acura's lineup, transmissions tend to perform erratically and break down prematurely ... consequently they have done the right thing in extending its warranty to eight years to cover 2000-01 failures; however, one gets the impression that 2002 and perhaps 2003 models are also affected ... their sudden failure on the highway represents a clear public danger, they all should be recalled ... vehicle stability activating too soon ... moon roof squeaks ... sudden unintended acceleration ... don't waste your money on the satellite navigation system, it is confusing to calibrate and hard to see."

Overall rating = Above Average (4 stars out of 5). Quality control = Above Average. Reliability = Above Average. Warranty Performance = Average.

BMW 3-Series nice things: "One of the best handling sport sedans on the market ... good acceleration, excellent handling, impressive braking, and top-notch quality control ... with BMW's recent mechanical upgrades, styling changes, and increased exterior and interior dimensions, the 3 Series has come to resemble its more expensive big brothers with super-smooth powertrain performance and enhanced handling"

Not so nice: "Many complaints of engine overheating, sudden shutdown, and engine compartment fires ... their handling of the engine-overheating problem has been deplorably stupid ... door locks without prior warning (a recurring theme)."

Overall Rating = Recommended (5 stars). Quality Control = Better than Average. Reliability = Average. Warranty Performance = Average.

So it appears that the 3.2TL is more reliabile, but overall they prefer the 3-Series.

For the Infiniti G35, they have no rating since they don't review models with less than one year of history.

I can't wait to see their review on the TSX when their 2004 Guide comes out. I am trying to decide between the TSX, the G35, and one of the 3-Series. I have only test driven the TSX auto, and the one quality that stands out is that it's sure fun to drive.

Bear Trap

Sorry, my bad. I was on a roll and I guess I missed a post. I do agree with you on the Honda/Acura vs Toyota/Lexus strategy for the most part. I think Acura may be trying to change that with the new TL and RL coming a little later but we'll just have to wait and see if that works. However, my point wasn't to trash BMWs. They are fine cars - a bit pricey for what you get, it just depends on priorities. But in comparison I don't see it as king of the hill anymore. Maybe a different way to put it is the TSX has made a new hill. After all, what started this was saying the 3-series is not a TSX and why I was glad it wasn't. Like I said earlier, it may have been more accurate to say the 325 is not a TSX, but everyone tends to lump all 3-series together, which is a mistake because there is such a wide range from 325s to M3s.

On a slightly different note, has anyone else ever noticed how the car mags will rate cars in different categories but the total they have never adds up to the total of each category? That is because they always have a hidden subjective score that will tilt the scale. That's what it boils down to, our own subjective score and we as consumers vote with our check books. What else would anyone expect at at TSX forum?

Now that I've stirred things up, I'm off to bed. Someone else feel free to take over defending the TSX vs 325 debate. I'll have to catch up on all my fan mail tomorrow.

larchmont

Hope you're sleeping soundly.

Actually there's at least one nice exception to this. A car's total score on the Consumer Guide scale does add up. But, it's not that they don't have the subjective "fudge factor" that you're talking about, it's just that their fudge factor is out in the open. They have a 100-point scale, based on 10 categories worth 10 points each -- and the final category, which they call "Value within class," is really an amorphous thing where they basically give anything up to 10 according to whatever they feel like.

hatchback

Reliability is determined by statistics, not anecdotes. And the long-term statistics all say that Japanese manufacters produce far more reliable cars than European manufacturers. Of the Japanese manufacturers, Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura are consistently at the top, and the Japenese cars that are actually manufactured in Japan (eg., TSX, S2000) are consistently more reliable than the Japanese cars manufactured in the USA (eg., Accord, Odyssey). Of the German manufacturers, Mercedes, Audi, and VW are consistently at the very bottom of all long term reliability studies. Every Mercedes sold in the USA has the absolute worst reliability rating provided by Consumer Reports (a solid black circle). The only German manufacturer that doesn't embarrass themselves in this regard is BMW, which is fortunate to have a single product line (the 5 series) with just average reliability. And that could well be the most reliable European car sold in the USA! The BMW 3 series and the X5 are both reliability disasters. IIRC, the X5 is considered to be the most unreliable vehicle sold these days.

But since you appear to put more stock in message boards, I'm surprised that you didn't bring up any of the pinned threads devoted to problems people are having with their BMWs, Mercedes, Audis, and VWs. Like the long-term attempt on m3forum.com to organize a recall on the BMW 3-Series engine. In fact, it's hard to read a message board devoted to a European manufacturer without being innundated with reliability complaints.

Buff-Daddy

I think if Bear Trap was coming out of a 3 year lease on a 325i and had moved into the TSX for all of the reasons stated, people (myself included) would have been a little less critical.

It is easy to bash something because of what you have heard or read once or saw in a magazine, but nothing beats personal experience. I am reading these boards 2x a day to gain more insight into the TSX and as soon as the dealers are ready to move away from MSRP (which they aren't now in my area), I will be willing to seriously consider one. However, since the 2004 BMW's are on thier way, they are getting rid of the 2003's close to invoice, so I have been keeping my eyes open for just the right one to hit the lot!

I ruled out the Audi A4, Lexus IS300, and Saab 9-3, they were all VERY nice, but they just didn't feel like "me" when I got inside. I think I am comfortable in Acura's and BMW's because I have experience and confidence with owning them.

I am glad that there are so many nice cars out there to choose from. At this point, it really boils down to personal preference. I hope Acura and other continue to push the market and force BMW's and other to respond. Competition is healthy and will lead to better products for us!