Buff-Daddy

"The TL’s new, tauter chassis calibrations offer security in virtually any road situation, without unduly intruding on the luxury ride. But for pure sport driving, does it challenge the BMW? Sorry, not quite. Here the TL runs up against the inherent limitation of its front-drive platform, namely, grinding, fun-robbing understeer at the absolute limits."

OUCH! And that is comparing it to the 5 year old 5-Series, not the new that is coming out soon. That has got to hurt when your newest vehicle cannot compete with a 5 year old version from your "so called (only here)" competition. Once again, fabluous car, awesome amenities and value, but it's not a BMW!

I had to check in and say hi to my buddy larchmont and shake things up a bit. I also wanted to see if the pics of that New Volvo S40 were causing any 2nd guessing around here. I see larchmont is still trying to prove that the TSX is in competition with the Volvo S60 and not the S40. I always thought it was TSX (S40), TL (S60) and flagships RL (S80), but I guess I must be wrong again.
I think you guys will get lucky and the S40 (priced w/the same amenities) will be about 2k more than the TSX, but that might be for the ALL-WHEEL-DRIVE version! You have to admit, it isn't a bad looking car for Volvo. Better rims for sure! What is it with Acura and ugly rims? I think the TL will have nice ones though, pics look ok thus far.

The posts looked kind of boring, so I thought I would start something...

vitocorleone

BD - while I have no doubt that the 5 series will perform better than the TL at the limits (for a LOT more money), please remember that various reviews for the TSX covered the gamut in terms of how much FWD bothered the drivers; some reviews said you could not tell it was FWD since there was no noticeable understeer, others said it was pretty bad. I'm sure the same will hold true for the TL.

rzee

At absolute limit, the BMW will oversteer, which is the worst fun-killer for me.

Brad

...and I might add that since in 99+% of driving, one does not drive at the limits, how material are the extremes in capabilities for everyday driving? How many people drive down the highway zig-zagging between dots bots (in the absence of traffic cones) just to enjoy their car's superior limits in handling?

I've noticed that same thing about FWD vs RWD comparisons. They're funny! How can some people detect very little if any difference, yet other people detect differences that are like night and day?

Methinks some people rejoice in embracing the extremes that are rarely "read world". Bad driving habits would be more believable.

Buff-Daddy

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Then why the TSX? There are plenty of other cars out there with leather, xenons, heated power seats, etc. Why a sports sedan at all?

Santacruz

Yawn! So?? The TL is about the whole package and not "pure sport driving". If you want to talk about pure sport driving then compare the 5 series against the EVO...

kurt_bradley

Those morons at Autoweek dropped info before the press embargo ended. You're going to see Honda freak out on them on this one. When a manufacturer asks you to respect the confidentiality of a new car, you do it.

phile

Not to mention that this would be strike #2, since they did the same thing with the release of the TSX.

Buff-Daddy

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The 5-Series is and always will be the benchmark by which "The Total Package" is based upon. You tell me what the Evo has outside of performance and we will move on. The interior is junk, the exterior is 100% rice and there is nothing luxuary about it. It is a fast piece of plastic. If you would be proud to own a riced up Mitsubishi Lancer with cloth interior, there won't be a long line to wait in, you can go right up to the front...

larchmont

Actually, I agree with Buff. TL sux!!!



Winner and still champion: TSX

adam fiooz

"FanBoys"

phile

The 5-Series's exterior, while not rice, isn't a beauty queen either. Haven't been inside a new 5-Series yet, but from the pictures, the cabin looks to be of high quality materials, but not a stand-out (Audi's A8 has raised the bar, can't wait to see the new A6). I actually think the 5's poplar wood veneer looks ugly, and the sprinkling of titanium accents seem anachronistic with the rest of the interior.

It's a BMW, no doubt the 5 will retain the driving characteristics that's made all BMW's popular, but I don't think the new 5-Series can claim to have "The Total Package". I'd say it has most, but not all of the Total Package (I'm interpreting this as the sum of all parts). IMO, BMW's got the mechanics, Audi's got the style, especially in regards to their interiors. In fact, I don't think interior styling was ever a BMW strong point.

With all the new cars trying to out-do one another, I really don't think any one car can lay claim to being the "benchmark" car for which all others are measured. I do think that BMW's, in general, are seen as benchmarks for driving dynamics and engineering, but not for any total packages.

Buff-Daddy

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The A8? Maybe that's why it is a $75,000 car! Stay in the ballpark here buddy.

And if you have ever been inside the the BMW 745 or 760 you will find out where Audi got all of their ideas for the interior of the A8, it is almost embarassing since the BMW was released about 1 year earlier...

Maybe after the new 5 series comes out, they will release the new A6 which I am sure will look exactly the same as well...

phile

The interiors of the two cars are hardly unique, but the execution in the Audi is much better. You make it seem as if BMW came up with the idea of putting wood across the dash, on the console and around the doors.

And no, the new A6 will not look like the 5-Series, it'll look better.

Buff-Daddy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by phile
[B]And no, the new A6 will look nothing like the 5-Series.
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Hey, I've seen that car too, it's called the next generation Passat! Wow, Audi is on a roll, where do they get these cutting edge ideas...

2004 Passat

Buff-Daddy

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How about the placement of the dial/joystick to work the navigation system? I don't think they had that before...

They were smart and waited to see what BMW did and then copied them. I will admit that the exterior of the A8 is more appealing than that of the 745. The pics of the A6 (aka Passat) look good, but we will have to wait and see if that is the true form.

phile

Pretty hard to come up with a unique design these days. I bet if BMW had a second brand (no, I'm not counting Rolls Royce) they'd have a hard time distinguishing it from the BMW look. Just look at Mercedes, the Maybach looks like an S-Class writ large.

phile

Neither did BMW. If you look at the Audi Avantissimo concept from 2001's Frankfurt Auto show, you'd see something similar.

kenbiddulph

Thats a nice interior, too bad the color scheme looks like something from Hershey Pennsylvania

TSXautoXer

Hmm...I cannot 100% agree on the issue. I do know a lot of people actually use their daily driver for weekend races as well. I am actually one of them, so I do explore the limit of the car, quite often. So, I would want to have a car that's good at all aspects.

It would be nice to see Acura has an all round performer that can run with the germans.

dom

While agree with some that the new 5 series looks like ASS, I also have to agree with Buff Daddy that Audi designs are getting bland and boring. I honestly have a hard time distinguishing an A4 from an A6 and an A6 from an A8. And that pic of the new A6 just posted does'nt seem to have helped Audi's cause.

TSXautoXer, We'll see Acura run with the germans when they release a RWD sedan.........which is never. Fact is the difference between FWD and RWD probly is'nt all that great (you whould know better than most) but the FWD stigma hanging over Honda just won't go away when compared head to head with the germans.

LeeLee

Ever since I first sat in a Mercedes Benz S600 way back when, I've come to the realization just what a bunch of crock it is for automotive reviewers to praise the interior designs of MB, BMW and Audi. There are apparently three keys to a good german interior design:

1. vast expanses of flat surfaces.
2. millions of little buttons that look exactly the same, organized in no logical manner.
3. Hideous looking instrument cluster with backlighting that bleed the numbers and text together.

My most recent experience in a BMW 330 left me wondering. The leather was hard, the switchgear was stiff, and the dark-grey-on-black interior looked positively somber. Not board-room somber, funeral somber. The A4 I test-drove on the same day was worse, with cheap looking plastic used as the audio cluster bezel.

Everytime I read in Car and Driver that an otherwise nice interior is "not quite Audi", I roll my eyes.

Buff-Daddy

If you were not impressed with the performance of the 330i, I am not sure how you are happy wit your TSX and might be in for a lifetime of disappointment. I can see how BMW interiors are not for everyone, but I don't think anyone here is going to argue that the 330i is a damn solid performance machine and would easily out perform even the beloved TSX.

You sound more like a Lexus IS300 guy to me. Ribbed dash, watch/bezel like instrument cluster, bright neon-like lighting, chrome ball on top of the shifter, etc. Some people get inside of that and think "cheesy". I am somewhere in the middle. I think Acura did a nice job with the interior on the TSX, I just wish the exterior was a little more interesting... I think the interiors of MB and Audi are a little too classy/sophisticated for my taste.

dom

I don't think he's reffering to the performance of the 3 series being a dissapointment. I think he's referring to the shitty interior.

phile

I have to disagree with you, LeeLee. The interiors of most German cars are very impressive. It'd be easy to say that all they do is just slap on wood veneer and chrome up all the little buttons, but that's not true. Just look at some of the earlier Japanese luxury cars (and some of the current American luxury cars) - it's the execution that brings the interiors to life, not just the materials.

Buff-Daddy

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Coming from someone who bought a blue car, I'm not sure I value your opinion... Thanks for your input though Papa Smurf...

dom

Now was that really nessesary ? And my car is purple not blue thank you very much

Buff-Daddy

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Barney isn't any better...

dom

I know, but I like purple what can I say

teombe

Phile, I have to nit pick on your post. This picture you posted...



Is NOT a 5-series... It is a representation of the upcoming 3/4 series vehicles.

This:



Is a 5-series.

See the difference?

rzee

nope, all look the same to me.

phile

Thanks for the clarification, teombe. Compared to that, the 5-Series actually looks decent.