04 TSX Oil Analysis, yes 5w-20 Homebrew!
#1
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2004 TSX, 4750 mi. on oil, 25000 on unit. Mostly highway, with lots of stop-n-go. Analysis by Butler CAT.
4 quarts Havoline SM 5w-20, 1 quart RL 5w-20.
Wear Metals:
Al, 4ppm
Cr, 0ppm
Fe, 6ppm
Cu, 1ppm
Pb, 1ppm
Sn, 3ppm
Oil Adds:
Mo, 430ppm
B, 16ppm
P, 837ppm
Zn, 934ppm
Ca, 1951ppm
Mg, 41ppm
Si, 4ppm
K, 0ppm
Na, 6ppm
Viscosity @100C, 8.5cst=yes, a solid 20wt.
Glycol, Water, and Fuel all read negative.
No FTIR because this was a homebrew and the machine cannot be calibrated correctly unless a virgin sample was submitted.
Michael
4 quarts Havoline SM 5w-20, 1 quart RL 5w-20.
Wear Metals:
Al, 4ppm
Cr, 0ppm
Fe, 6ppm
Cu, 1ppm
Pb, 1ppm
Sn, 3ppm
Oil Adds:
Mo, 430ppm
B, 16ppm
P, 837ppm
Zn, 934ppm
Ca, 1951ppm
Mg, 41ppm
Si, 4ppm
K, 0ppm
Na, 6ppm
Viscosity @100C, 8.5cst=yes, a solid 20wt.
Glycol, Water, and Fuel all read negative.
No FTIR because this was a homebrew and the machine cannot be calibrated correctly unless a virgin sample was submitted.
Michael
#3
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Thread Starter
My Comments:
Who says a 5w-20 can't do the job well?![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
I'll post the earlier 5w-30 UOAs later, they all sheared down into the mid 7cst range.![EEK!](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Thus, this proves that STABLE viscosity is the key, NOT thicker.
All of the wear metals appear excellent....the tin puzzles me, but I guess its a metal used in one the wearing parts in this engine.
Surprising that the addition of one quart RL 5w-20 had little to no effect on the viscosity, virgin 5w-20 Havoline SM starts out at 8.3, so RL 5w-20 must start out around 8.8??
Si, is very low, considering that RL uses some as an anti-foam agent. The Na you see here is from Redline, which uses a trace of it as an additive.
Feel free to ask any questions,
Michael
Who says a 5w-20 can't do the job well?
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
I'll post the earlier 5w-30 UOAs later, they all sheared down into the mid 7cst range.
![EEK!](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Thus, this proves that STABLE viscosity is the key, NOT thicker.
All of the wear metals appear excellent....the tin puzzles me, but I guess its a metal used in one the wearing parts in this engine.
Surprising that the addition of one quart RL 5w-20 had little to no effect on the viscosity, virgin 5w-20 Havoline SM starts out at 8.3, so RL 5w-20 must start out around 8.8??
Si, is very low, considering that RL uses some as an anti-foam agent. The Na you see here is from Redline, which uses a trace of it as an additive.
Feel free to ask any questions,
Michael
#7
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Thread Starter
Universal Avgs. are worthless...all wear metals depend on the driving conditions, oil used, driving habits, etc...
Typically, Al is supposed to be 1/3 of Fe, Fe is 1-2ppm/1,000 mi, and Pb should be 1-2ppm at most in a well broken-in engine.
Let's stick with that first.![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Michael
Typically, Al is supposed to be 1/3 of Fe, Fe is 1-2ppm/1,000 mi, and Pb should be 1-2ppm at most in a well broken-in engine.
Let's stick with that first.
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Michael
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#15
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What brand sauceman?
Syn, Blend, or Dino? (Actually slightly inaccurate as most 5w-20 oils are blends to a degree in order to meet specs)
Are you going to analyze it?
Michael
Syn, Blend, or Dino? (Actually slightly inaccurate as most 5w-20 oils are blends to a degree in order to meet specs)
Are you going to analyze it?
Michael
#16
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Thread Starter
BTW, you lucky Canadian should be running the dirt cheap Esso XD3 0w-30 full syn.
All of the USA people are jealous as you folks can get a very robust, full syn oil for dirt cheap.
Michael
All of the USA people are jealous as you folks can get a very robust, full syn oil for dirt cheap.
Michael
#17
Someone stole "My Garage"
Originally Posted by Michael Wan
BTW, you lucky Canadian should be running the dirt cheap Esso XD3 0w-30 full syn.
All of the USA people are jealous as you folks can get a very robust, full syn oil for dirt cheap.
Michael
All of the USA people are jealous as you folks can get a very robust, full syn oil for dirt cheap.
Michael
~Eric
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Originally Posted by Michael Wan
What brand sauceman?
Syn, Blend, or Dino? (Actually slightly inaccurate as most 5w-20 oils are blends to a degree in order to meet specs)
Are you going to analyze it?
Michael
Syn, Blend, or Dino? (Actually slightly inaccurate as most 5w-20 oils are blends to a degree in order to meet specs)
Are you going to analyze it?
Michael
I really have not a clue where I could get it analysed, and even if I did, I wouldn't have a clue of what it would mean. Nah, I'm mostly interested to see if and by how much mileage would improve.
Worth a shot, 5W20 was priced same as 5W30 at Wal Mart.
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Originally Posted by Michael Wan
2004 TSX, 4750 mi. on oil, 25000 on unit. Mostly highway, with lots of stop-n-go. Analysis by Butler CAT.
4 quarts Havoline SM 5w-20, 1 quart RL 5w-20.
Wear Metals:
Al, 4ppm
Cr, 0ppm
Fe, 6ppm
Cu, 1ppm
Pb, 1ppm
Sn, 3ppm
Oil Adds:
Mo, 430ppm
B, 16ppm
P, 837ppm
Zn, 934ppm
Ca, 1951ppm
Mg, 41ppm
Si, 4ppm
K, 0ppm
Na, 6ppm
Viscosity @100C, 8.5cst=yes, a solid 20wt.
Glycol, Water, and Fuel all read negative.
No FTIR because this was a homebrew and the machine cannot be calibrated correctly unless a virgin sample was submitted.
Michael
4 quarts Havoline SM 5w-20, 1 quart RL 5w-20.
Wear Metals:
Al, 4ppm
Cr, 0ppm
Fe, 6ppm
Cu, 1ppm
Pb, 1ppm
Sn, 3ppm
Oil Adds:
Mo, 430ppm
B, 16ppm
P, 837ppm
Zn, 934ppm
Ca, 1951ppm
Mg, 41ppm
Si, 4ppm
K, 0ppm
Na, 6ppm
Viscosity @100C, 8.5cst=yes, a solid 20wt.
Glycol, Water, and Fuel all read negative.
No FTIR because this was a homebrew and the machine cannot be calibrated correctly unless a virgin sample was submitted.
Michael
![Huh](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/huh.gif)
#20
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Originally Posted by matelot
![Huh](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/huh.gif)
Michael
#22
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Thread Starter
gogozy,
The GC has turned back excellent UOAs on the Honda 2.4 engine...yes it is a borderline 30/40wt, but it does the job very well. In addition, its 0w-XX rating may help with flow in cold temps in Toronto, and may actually help fuel efficiency in the winter because of the better flow.
However, with such excellent results with a 5w-20, I'm hesitant to use anything thicker than a xW-20 in a TSX app....though keep in mind, that it is not recommended by Honda.![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
I'm especially interested in seeing Synergyn 3w-30 or 0w-20, as well as Pennzoil Platinum 0w-20 in this application.
Michael
The GC has turned back excellent UOAs on the Honda 2.4 engine...yes it is a borderline 30/40wt, but it does the job very well. In addition, its 0w-XX rating may help with flow in cold temps in Toronto, and may actually help fuel efficiency in the winter because of the better flow.
However, with such excellent results with a 5w-20, I'm hesitant to use anything thicker than a xW-20 in a TSX app....though keep in mind, that it is not recommended by Honda.
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
I'm especially interested in seeing Synergyn 3w-30 or 0w-20, as well as Pennzoil Platinum 0w-20 in this application.
Michael
#24
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#26
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Thread Starter
gogozy,
You're overlooking the fact that it is NOT a single ingredient that is important in an oil, but instead it is the OVERALL chemistry that is important.
FORCESHO, the MO is coming from BOTH the Havoline and Redline (RL). My Virgin Oil Analysis of Havoline 5w-20 SM showed >400ppm of Moly.
Michael
You're overlooking the fact that it is NOT a single ingredient that is important in an oil, but instead it is the OVERALL chemistry that is important.
FORCESHO, the MO is coming from BOTH the Havoline and Redline (RL). My Virgin Oil Analysis of Havoline 5w-20 SM showed >400ppm of Moly.
Michael
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Originally Posted by Michael Wan
gogozy,
My Virgin Oil Analysis of Havoline 5w-20 SM showed >400ppm of Moly.
Michael
My Virgin Oil Analysis of Havoline 5w-20 SM showed >400ppm of Moly.
Michael
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#28
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Originally Posted by Ozzman
I haven't understood any of this, but I must admit that for some reason I got excited when I read "Virgin Oil". ![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
![what](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/what.gif)
#30
Originally Posted by iamhomin
Okay, someone translate that to english for me.
After the seat-bottom wears through.... my 1998 Volvo (Den Vinter-Beater
)
Mobil-1 and Volvo filter, every 5000 miles.
1998 V70T5 155,238 miles, 5300 miles on oil, Volvo filter, Mobil-1 10W30 Synthetic.
Aluminum 2 ppm
Chromium 0
Iron 5
Copper 2
Lead 0
Tin 0
Molybdenum 60
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 0
Boron 138
Silicon 10
Sodium 4
Calcium 2189
Magnesium 13
Phosphorus 528
Zinc 669
Barium 0
Viscosity @ 210F 57.7 Flashpoint 380 <0.5% fuel 0% antifreeze 0% water 0.5% insolubles
![Big Grin](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Mobil-1 and Volvo filter, every 5000 miles.
1998 V70T5 155,238 miles, 5300 miles on oil, Volvo filter, Mobil-1 10W30 Synthetic.
Aluminum 2 ppm
Chromium 0
Iron 5
Copper 2
Lead 0
Tin 0
Molybdenum 60
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 0
Boron 138
Silicon 10
Sodium 4
Calcium 2189
Magnesium 13
Phosphorus 528
Zinc 669
Barium 0
Viscosity @ 210F 57.7 Flashpoint 380 <0.5% fuel 0% antifreeze 0% water 0.5% insolubles
I guess it means that the TSX is going to be more prone to osteoporosis when it gets older? I mean this is all interesting but the two cars don't seem to produce much different results, even after the Volvo has done the equivalent of being driven around the globe more than six times. BTW, the Volvo still doesn't use any oil between routine oil changes. Maybe this synthetic stuff really works?
#31
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Thread Starter
Calcium (Ca), is a detergent and boosts the TBN. Everything looks great for a high mileage Volvo.
Try running dino in this Volvo, and you'll watch that viscosity drop since the turbo will "kill" the oil.
Note that your flashpoint could use some improvement, same with the insolubles. Ideally, the insolubles should be at 0.3-0.4% for a short 5K run, and you'd want to have the Flashpoint >400F.
Normally, using FP60 by Lube Control will drop the insolubles on a newer car, but I suspect that your problem here is simply from buildup in the engine. Running two treatments of Auto-RX with a 15w-40 conventional oil, then resampling again at 5000 miles with Mobil 1 10w-30 (using FP60 at every fill-up at the same time) should drop the insolubles to that level). Flashpoint can be helped by using LC20 at 1 oz/qt, then 1oz/1,000 miles.
Michael
Try running dino in this Volvo, and you'll watch that viscosity drop since the turbo will "kill" the oil.
Note that your flashpoint could use some improvement, same with the insolubles. Ideally, the insolubles should be at 0.3-0.4% for a short 5K run, and you'd want to have the Flashpoint >400F.
Normally, using FP60 by Lube Control will drop the insolubles on a newer car, but I suspect that your problem here is simply from buildup in the engine. Running two treatments of Auto-RX with a 15w-40 conventional oil, then resampling again at 5000 miles with Mobil 1 10w-30 (using FP60 at every fill-up at the same time) should drop the insolubles to that level). Flashpoint can be helped by using LC20 at 1 oz/qt, then 1oz/1,000 miles.
Michael
#32
Originally Posted by Michael Wan
gogozy,
You're overlooking the fact that it is NOT a single ingredient that is important in an oil, but instead it is the OVERALL chemistry that is important.
FORCESHO, the MO is coming from BOTH the Havoline and Redline (RL). My Virgin Oil Analysis of Havoline 5w-20 SM showed >400ppm of Moly.
Michael
You're overlooking the fact that it is NOT a single ingredient that is important in an oil, but instead it is the OVERALL chemistry that is important.
FORCESHO, the MO is coming from BOTH the Havoline and Redline (RL). My Virgin Oil Analysis of Havoline 5w-20 SM showed >400ppm of Moly.
Michael
just curious if you think running with Moly is better than using M1 with less ?
#34
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Thread Starter
Dunno Bill....
Not necessairly, you're comparing apples to oranges here. It really depends on how well the oil will perform. More Moly DOES NOT necessairly mean better, but Havoline just happens to have lots of Moly yet perform well.
MW
Not necessairly, you're comparing apples to oranges here. It really depends on how well the oil will perform. More Moly DOES NOT necessairly mean better, but Havoline just happens to have lots of Moly yet perform well.
MW
#35
I have done 6 or 7 Used oil analysis and they are posted on the Oil Board. This engine is amazing in terms of good wear numbers. My son's TSX has 70+ K miles on the clock. Last one it did with Penzoil Platinum are about the same as the posted one (but with 8200 miles).
I am not too keen to switch to the 20Wt. as the fuel economy will only be about .5 mpg more and it might be best to stick with Honda's rec. Having said that..this engine is very hard on oil and a 30 wt. will be chewed down to a 20 wt in 2,000 miles anyway.
My 01 Sentra SE got no increase in mileage with 20 wt and the wear was worse.
I am not too keen to switch to the 20Wt. as the fuel economy will only be about .5 mpg more and it might be best to stick with Honda's rec. Having said that..this engine is very hard on oil and a 30 wt. will be chewed down to a 20 wt in 2,000 miles anyway.
My 01 Sentra SE got no increase in mileage with 20 wt and the wear was worse.
#36
Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
but Havoline just happens to have lots of Moly yet perform well.
MW
MW
![Frown](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif)
#37
Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
2004 TSX, 4750 mi. on oil, 25000 on unit. Mostly highway, with lots of stop-n-go. Analysis by Butler CAT.
4 quarts Havoline SM 5w-20, 1 quart RL 5w-20.
Wear Metals:
Al, 4ppm
Cr, 0ppm
Fe, 6ppm
Cu, 1ppm
Pb, 1ppm
Sn, 3ppm
Oil Adds:
Mo, 430ppm
B, 16ppm
P, 837ppm
Zn, 934ppm
Ca, 1951ppm
Mg, 41ppm
Si, 4ppm
K, 0ppm
Na, 6ppm
Viscosity @100C, 8.5cst=yes, a solid 20wt.
Glycol, Water, and Fuel all read negative.
No FTIR because this was a homebrew and the machine cannot be calibrated correctly unless a virgin sample was submitted.
Michael
4 quarts Havoline SM 5w-20, 1 quart RL 5w-20.
Wear Metals:
Al, 4ppm
Cr, 0ppm
Fe, 6ppm
Cu, 1ppm
Pb, 1ppm
Sn, 3ppm
Oil Adds:
Mo, 430ppm
B, 16ppm
P, 837ppm
Zn, 934ppm
Ca, 1951ppm
Mg, 41ppm
Si, 4ppm
K, 0ppm
Na, 6ppm
Viscosity @100C, 8.5cst=yes, a solid 20wt.
Glycol, Water, and Fuel all read negative.
No FTIR because this was a homebrew and the machine cannot be calibrated correctly unless a virgin sample was submitted.
Michael
#38
Originally Posted by MJB_CHI
Your Moly reading is astronomical at 430, that is almost definately helping to keep the metal wear down to a minimum. .
The intent of Moly is a "last ditch" lubrication when the normal boundary lubrication fails. Moly can be effective in protecting the bearings on startup or under excessive bearing loads. Thats why RedLine uses a lot of Moly...to protect in abnormal high load Racing conditions. Most oils have around 50 to 100 ppm Moly. And the latest version of Havoline with "Deposit Shield" has lower moly numbers than the old versions.
#39
Originally Posted by adc
I am not too keen to switch to the 20Wt. as the fuel economy will only be about .5 mpg more and it might be best to stick with Honda's rec. Having said that..this engine is very hard on oil and a 30 wt. will be chewed down to a 20 wt in 2,000 miles anyway.