BT TL

I have a 96 TL 2.5 with 80,000 miles. I purchased it with 40,000 miles on it about 5 years ago and performed all the usual maintenance since then.
My engine started running rough a few weeks ago.
I took in to my mechanic and he said that I had low compression (approx. 90 lb. in each) in two cylinders. He did a wet compression test and decided that I had couple of bad valves. For $2,000 he replaced the head gasket and a couple of valves. End of story? Unfortunately, no.
After all this work, the compression in the two cyclinders only came up a little.
He now believes that the rings must be bad and that I need to rebuild the engine for an additional $4,700 (total $6,700).

I'm not sure what to do now.
Should I have him rebuild the engine?
Should I just pay him the $2,000, try to trade in the car with dealer and hope they give me a few bucks towards a new vehicle?

Any comments or advice is greatly appreciated!!
Thank You.

vishnus11

ALWAYS ALWAYS get a second opinion. Sounds like the dude is trying to take you for a ride. This is the first time I've heard of bad cylinder rings on a 1st gen TL.

KrayzieDxC

for that total u can get another tl, or you can buy another engine and replace it. if it was me i buy a used engine and get mechanic to put it in ,so u'll spend less then 2gs and replace everything on that used engine

01tl4tl

First: Is this a real shop with a license or a friend who works on cars

Normally you do a dry compression test- thats remove spark plug- insert tester and crank engine
then you do a wet test- squirt a little oil into the cylinder- install the guage in the plug hole-crank engine
if its rings the oil will make a better seal and the compression number comes up 20-30 lbs
If that doesnt show- you proceed to a cylinder leak down test where each cyclinder in turn is put in the valves closed position and pressurizeed air is put thru the plug hole.
You can tell if its valve leaks that way

If the shop made the diagnosis and was incorrect because they did not follow and document these test- you dont owe them anything-

Take it to another shop- look in the phone book- acura specialist are everywhere
Go with a good used engine- guys that race will know where to get one cheap for you
Properly cared for the engine will go over 200k miles

BT TL

Believe it or not, this is a real shop with a license. (But I'm certainly having my doubts about their ability!!!)

01tl4tl: I plan to do exactly as you suggest. Here is my plan...
I'm going to request written documentation of their "tests" and take the car and the documentation to an acura specialist and see what their recommendation is.

Thanks for your advice.
I will let you know what I find out.

TexasHonda

A much cheaper option is to buy a used engine and pay labor for installation. You should be able to be running again for < $2K.

A recent ebay listing has engine and trans for $900. Mileage is higher than yours but could be a fine engine.

eBay Watched Item Has Been Relisted: 1998 Acura TL 2.5 Engine and Transmission (156k) (190141253469

Check car-part.com for engines near your zip.

good luck

01tl4tl

Any used engine you buy- auto junkyards are now auto recyclers-
make sure to replace the water pump and timing belt- throw a thermostat in for fun-
its all easy to do with the engine sitting on the ground and the best insurance you can get

BT TL

UPDATE:
I talked with the mechanic and he confirmed the following:
the wet compression test showed that the compression went up 25lbs in each cylinder.
However, his other tests indicated that the valves were bad.
Based on the fact that the car has low miles he decided that just the valves were bad. Of course, we all know now that conclusion was WRONG!!!
I told him that he should have known, based on the wet compression test that rings were also bad. He disagrees and believes that the bad valves were hiding the fact that the rings were also bad. Is this possible? Is this a reasonable conclusion for a mechanic to make?
Further, he still believes that I should pay him the entire $2,000 for the valve work.
I told him that I want him to give me documentation on the tests that he preformed and I will take it to someone else (local Acura dealer) to see who's position they agree with.
He responded that he would talk to the owner of the mechanic shop and document the compression tests and get back to me.
Any any thoughts or advice?
Thanks again for any help!

pi1996

as i understand, if the compression goes up after adding oil, then its the rings.

however, 90psi is really low.. and 25 more isn't much of an improvement.. (i recently did a test on mine and it was 210)
also 2 cylinders probably meant it was a head gasket. (if they are next to each other)
i think he went against his better judgement, and did a lower cost option hoping that it would fix it.
not sure if he did this intentionally, but the bottom line is that it was a waste of effort.

i'd try to make some kind of deal with him, maybe provide an engine and they'd put it in for free with timing belt, tensioner and water pump install.

do some research about the shop, check with BBB. don't raise a stink with him but be firm and reasonable.

take care.

BT TL

pi996:
I think you hit the nail on the head.
I talked with him about buying a used engine and having him put it in for me.
He said if I buy the engine, he said he'll put it in for about $1,000.
That is a total of about $4,000 ($2,000 for the work on the header and the valves, $1,000 for a used engine and $1,000 for him to put it in). This sounds like a lot better deal than what I was thinking about earlier.
This is my plan at this point.
Thanks again for everyone's guidance.

pi1996

check this listing,

there is one more on ebay.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/95-98...spagenameZWDVW

TexasHonda

That's better, but he's really holding you up for the cylinder head. These jobs should be < $1K, labor and parts. I'm having head done on my 2.5TL right now and its $900, which includes repair/replacement of valves damaged by a mistimed engine (long story for another day).

good luck

meazz1

Texas, I see oil in #2, #3 plugs. I already replaced plug seals twice recently. what exactly being done on your engine? $900.00 sounds fair if that's what I need for my engine.

thanks

TexasHonda

Cylinder head had bent valves due to mistiming w/ crankshaft, (pistons hit valves). Valve assy had to be removed and damaged valves replaced. Shave head. New cylinder head gasket and installation. 8 hrs labor was charged at $75/hr. Remainder was parts/labor on the cylinderhead.

I've done this job myself on Accords, and considered doing this one, but my job demand is too high at this time. It would have taken me 2 pretty hard days of work to diy, and it's been hitting 100+ effective temperature here in Houston.

good luck

pi1996

tex,

what happened?
didn't you do the timing belt yourself?

TexasHonda

Yes, I did do the TB myself, however TB did not break.

I'll post a complete saga when I've got the car back from the shop. I'm supposed to get the car early this week (tuesday or wednesday).

regards

BT TL

Update:
Good news--I finally have my car back with a used engine that has about as many miles as my car. Bad news---It cost me way more than it should have but at least I have my car back. (approx. $2K for replacement engine and labor installation and $2K for work on a head that I don't even have a use for!)

As the replacement engine came with a lot of extra parts that I don't need, I now have a lot of extra car parts that I'm not sure what to do with. To the extent that there is a market for them, I would like to sell them to recoup some of my costs. Below are the parts that I have for a 1996 2.5 TL:

Head with two new valves and new seals for all valves (I spent $1,400 bucks to repair this header and didn't use it since I bought a replacement engine).
camshaft
rocker arms
flywheel
Intake manifold
starter
thermastat housing

Any idea how much I can get for these parts and the best place to sell them? (craigs list? e bay? junk yard?)

Thanks again for any help/advice,
Brian

01tl4tl

BT
I ran a shop- I know whats legal and not and am being straight with you
The shop is liable for its diagnosis and repairs
Any competent tech sees 25 lb wet test increase and still thinks they can just fix the top end should not be allowed to handle tools
When an over-rev (as I recall this was based on bent valves) occurs, and you get conflicting readings with both rings and valve seals saying their part is bad- you need to investigate further because the engine may well be toast!
As yours was
You were good enough to stay with them and install a used engine
Why they didnt drop your rebuilt head on is a mystery
Did you get the new water pump and t belt at least?

So you do not owe them for the failed- misdiagnosed- incomplete diagnosis- failuire to perform normal test...failed to document...
and now the tech saying they will document the readings- no- sorry- paperwork only counts if done on the spot. If the state repair bureau inspector drops by the shop- every bit of paper for every car in the shop better be correct, all work being performed must be authorized, all test results documented...paper trail

BBB has no real legal powers- they can hassle places and make reports
STATE License bureaus have the power to decide if malfeasance exist and tell the shop to correct a bill or drop it, you can also go to small claims court
As a consumer- you paid to have car checked by a pro- who then charged 2000$$$$ to not fix your car, and then and another 2000 to make it better with a different engine- indicating the original diagnosis of repairing that engine was incorrect...and it should have been a 2000 job total to begin.
you win- end of story

01tl4tl

You can list your items here in the Off Topic link- then look for Private Sales area- make sure to read and follow the rules posted there, and its free!!!

BT TL

I know you are right, I guess I've been just avoiding a confrontation and all the work that goes along with escalating the matter.
I told the mechanic previously that I think that they are culpable because they only diagnosed a part of the problem (the valves) and not the bad rings. He flatly denied that a 25lb wet test clearly indicated that there might be another problem other than just the valves and/or leaky head gasket. If they had interpreted the tests right and told me that my rings were dead, I certainly would not have done the work on the head.
I noticed on the shop's invoice that they are ASE certified. Should I contact the ASE to complain or is there another State licensing agency that would do the most for my position?

BT TL

I realized that I didn't answer one of your questions...
The reason the mechanic didn't put the refurbished head on the replacement engine was because he said that the replacement engine had 200lbs of pressure in all the cylinders and he didn't want to mess with it. That sounded reasonable to me, but what do I know...

BT TL

FYI,
Per your suggestion, I am planning to list my extra parts for sale on this website as soon as I get a chance to take pictures of the parts.
I have the following (and perhaps more):
cyclinder head (two new valves and all new seals
intake manafold
starter
camshaft and rocker arms
a box full of other stuff

BT TL

I have finally got around to listing this parts on the Black Market.
If all goes well, they should be on the site within the hour.