Fuel Additives
09-21-2004, 10:39 AM
#2
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Oil additives are bad news. Stay away from them like the plague.
Fuel additives like octane booster are pretty useless for us. I don't think any car comes from the factory needing more than premium grade gasoline. Octane boosters are for people running custom jobs that have boosted compression way up.
Fuel injection cleaners work, but if you have been using premium grade gasoline, there's a lot of detergents in there already. I wouldn't see a need to use fuel injector cleaner regularly.
Fuel additives like octane booster are pretty useless for us. I don't think any car comes from the factory needing more than premium grade gasoline. Octane boosters are for people running custom jobs that have boosted compression way up.
Fuel injection cleaners work, but if you have been using premium grade gasoline, there's a lot of detergents in there already. I wouldn't see a need to use fuel injector cleaner regularly.
09-21-2004, 01:33 PM
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The reason I was asking is because I am coming up on my 120,000 mile repair and one of the things that the dealer wanted to do was fuel and oil additives and adding a fuel injection cleaner.
They recommended BG but I wasn't sure if I needed it. I have been using the V-Power gas since I got the car in March.
So in your opinion I don't need this stuff?
They recommended BG but I wasn't sure if I needed it. I have been using the V-Power gas since I got the car in March.
So in your opinion I don't need this stuff?
09-21-2004, 02:00 PM
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put it in anyways... just not the oil addative... I agree with wackjum on the oil addative... but it never hurts to put in some octane boost and fuel injector cleaners... oh and always use high octane gasoline... never use lower grade stuff... unless there is nothing else to use... and about octane boosters... in a different thread i asked this question and so far i think that for the boosted octane to work you'll need some computer adjustments... i'm guessing the Venom400 would work... but again... it wouldn't hurt to put it in every oil change... 
09-21-2004, 02:30 PM
#5
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Why would the dealership recommend oil additives? Oil additives, also known as engine treatments, usually void warranties.
I think it's time to put an end to the octane myth once and for all.
A 4 stroke internal combustion engine has 4 phases (hence the name).
The first phase is called the intake. This is where the piston travels downward, sucking in air and fuel from the valves. As the piston goes downward, it spins the crankshaft, which goes in a circle. The effect is that the crankshaft's momentum pushes the piston back upwards. This is called the compression phase.
This is where potential energy is being stored up in the form of compressing the fuel/air mixture. The smaller you can cram explosive stuff, the bigger the force will be. One example is firecrackers. If you pour gunpowder on a pile on the floor and ignite it, it'll just burn up. If you pack that gunpowder into a soft drink can and then ignite it, it'll probably explode.
The same can be said for a car piston. If you cram the fuel/air mixture really tightly, it will explode with more power. This is called the compression ratio.
The third phase is called power. This is when the piston has reached the maximum compression level and the spark plug ignites the mixture. The mixture explodes in the tiny space, creating pressure against the piston and forcing it down, which spins the crankshaft (which will eventually power your wheels).
The crankshaft and piston goes all the way around once. On the second time it comes back up, the piston pushes all of the exhaust out of the valves and the whole cycle starts over.
So, back to compression. The more you compress the air/fuel, the more power you'll get. There's a problem however...
Gasoline can sometimes explode if it is compressed too much. If it explodes before the piston is in position, your engine could get damaged. It's like getting punched in the stomach when you're not ready. When the gasoline detonates before the power cycle, it is called knock or engine knock.
Gasoline's ability to withstand pressure before detonating is measured in octane ratings. 87 octane gas will take less compressing to spontaneously detonate before 91 does. That's all octane rating means. It doesn't mean the gasoline will burn cleaner or anything.
So let's imagine you have a Ford F-150 that will take cheapo gasoline. It has a compression ratio of 8:1. You pour in 92 octane gasoline. Hell, let's add octane booster and get 95 octane.
The engine is still compressing at 8:1. It didn't knock before. It's not going to knock now. Result? You wasted money.
So go ahead, pour octane booster in your tank.
Oil additives, also known as engine treatments, usually void warranties.I think it's time to put an end to the octane myth once and for all.
A 4 stroke internal combustion engine has 4 phases (hence the name).
The first phase is called the intake. This is where the piston travels downward, sucking in air and fuel from the valves. As the piston goes downward, it spins the crankshaft, which goes in a circle. The effect is that the crankshaft's momentum pushes the piston back upwards. This is called the compression phase.
This is where potential energy is being stored up in the form of compressing the fuel/air mixture. The smaller you can cram explosive stuff, the bigger the force will be. One example is firecrackers. If you pour gunpowder on a pile on the floor and ignite it, it'll just burn up. If you pack that gunpowder into a soft drink can and then ignite it, it'll probably explode.
The same can be said for a car piston. If you cram the fuel/air mixture really tightly, it will explode with more power. This is called the compression ratio.
The third phase is called power. This is when the piston has reached the maximum compression level and the spark plug ignites the mixture. The mixture explodes in the tiny space, creating pressure against the piston and forcing it down, which spins the crankshaft (which will eventually power your wheels).
The crankshaft and piston goes all the way around once. On the second time it comes back up, the piston pushes all of the exhaust out of the valves and the whole cycle starts over.
So, back to compression. The more you compress the air/fuel, the more power you'll get. There's a problem however...
Gasoline can sometimes explode if it is compressed too much. If it explodes before the piston is in position, your engine could get damaged. It's like getting punched in the stomach when you're not ready. When the gasoline detonates before the power cycle, it is called knock or engine knock.
Gasoline's ability to withstand pressure before detonating is measured in octane ratings. 87 octane gas will take less compressing to spontaneously detonate before 91 does. That's all octane rating means. It doesn't mean the gasoline will burn cleaner or anything.
So let's imagine you have a Ford F-150 that will take cheapo gasoline. It has a compression ratio of 8:1. You pour in 92 octane gasoline. Hell, let's add octane booster and get 95 octane.
The engine is still compressing at 8:1. It didn't knock before. It's not going to knock now. Result? You wasted money.
So go ahead, pour octane booster in your tank.
09-21-2004, 03:22 PM
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Now I understand...
Originally Posted by wackjum
Why would the dealership recommend oil additives? Oil additives, also known as engine treatments, usually void warranties.
I think it's time to put an end to the octane myth once and for all.
...deleted because its to long to quote...
So go ahead, pour octane booster in your tank.
Oil additives, also known as engine treatments, usually void warranties.I think it's time to put an end to the octane myth once and for all.
...deleted because its to long to quote...
So go ahead, pour octane booster in your tank.
First off... let me answer the above question with a question... If you gave someone warrenty and you didn't want them to come back to you with broken parts that you have to replace/fix free of charge, wouldn't you want to have them automaticly void their warranties you just gave them??? Smart dealership... if this is the case and they want you to void your warrenty... don't do it...
Second... i still got questions about the octane boost thingy... so its not done!!! but here they are so we can finish it up... You implied that that octane boost just makes the fuel a bit more resistant to pre-detination, right? Nothing to do with power... but it'll prevent pre-detonation causing it to detonate at the perfect time... right so far??? so, a higher octane is good because it will not detonate before the piston is in the firing position (ready to go back down after it pushed the exhaust gas out)... right so far??? thus saving you more money then you are wasting on octane boost... how you ask? because if your fuel/air mixture would detonate before the piston was in a ready position (ready to go back down after it pushed the exhaust gas out) position, it would mess the engine up causing you to pull out a couple thousand in cash instead of the 5 to 10 dollars you would waste every 3 months or 3,000 miles which ever comes first on oil change day... which is, using the high end spendature on octane boost, about 60 bucks a year making it 600 dollars every 10 years... which is not even close to the thousands on engine repair...
"So i'll go ahead, and pour octane booster in my tank." And thanks for clearing the octane boost thing up for me... i wasn't sure if it would help my engine any... now i know...
Gracias...
Oh and also... i still agree about the oil addative... don't do that... i wouldn't...
09-21-2004, 03:29 PM
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I use Techron Fuel System Cleaner after every oil change. This is what the dealer usually puts in at every 15K service. As for oil additives, I use the Valvoline Max Life Engine Treatment at every oil change. I want my baby to last as long as possible and I've heard good things about the Max Life additives.
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09-21-2004, 05:31 PM
#8
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Well since I am at work, and I have no where else to go, I will deign to answer this question yet again.
THE PROPER OCTANE DEPENDS ON YOUR COMPRESSION RATIO.
You read my post, but you didn't seem to comprehend it.
Yes higher octane prevents knock. Yes knock is bad. But no car company currently makes a mass production car that needs higher octane gas from the factory. This is true for Ferrari's and everything else.
A truck with a compression ratio of 8:1 gets by with 87 grade. An Acura TL with a compression ratio of 9.6:1 gets by with 91 grade. It says so in the manual. They designed it to take premium grade. It doesn't knock with 91 so why put more octane in there?
For your information, Supra TT's take premium from the factory. They have a compression of 11:1 I think. So do BMW M3s, Ferrari 360 Modenas, Acura NSXs, Honda S2000s, and a bunch of other high performance/high compression cars. There is A LOT of head room with 91 octane. I promise you your car isn't knocking on 91 grade gas.
FINALLY you said that you're putting in octane booster every 3,000 miles. By my calculations, that's about one tank in ten (300 miles per tank). What about those 9 other tanks? Octane booster has no lasting effect in your engine. It is designed to increase the octane of the tank of gas you mix it with.
THE PROPER OCTANE DEPENDS ON YOUR COMPRESSION RATIO.
You read my post, but you didn't seem to comprehend it.
Yes higher octane prevents knock. Yes knock is bad. But no car company currently makes a mass production car that needs higher octane gas from the factory. This is true for Ferrari's and everything else.
A truck with a compression ratio of 8:1 gets by with 87 grade. An Acura TL with a compression ratio of 9.6:1 gets by with 91 grade. It says so in the manual. They designed it to take premium grade. It doesn't knock with 91 so why put more octane in there?
For your information, Supra TT's take premium from the factory. They have a compression of 11:1 I think. So do BMW M3s, Ferrari 360 Modenas, Acura NSXs, Honda S2000s, and a bunch of other high performance/high compression cars. There is A LOT of head room with 91 octane. I promise you your car isn't knocking on 91 grade gas.
FINALLY you said that you're putting in octane booster every 3,000 miles. By my calculations, that's about one tank in ten (300 miles per tank). What about those 9 other tanks? Octane booster has no lasting effect in your engine. It is designed to increase the octane of the tank of gas you mix it with.
09-21-2004, 05:44 PM
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Techron is a fuel system cleaner cleaning out the valves and injectors. At no point does it increase octane or claim to do so. I think your post is directed to Spooky, but nonetheless I agree with you wackjum in that Octane booster is useless in our cars since the compression is not that high.
09-22-2004, 10:46 AM
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So overall it seems like a fuel additive is useless. An oil additive causes more harm than good.
For a fuel injector cleaner Techron seems good? I spoke with the Acura dealer and they recommended BG 44K. Any ideas on which is better?
For a fuel injector cleaner Techron seems good? I spoke with the Acura dealer and they recommended BG 44K. Any ideas on which is better?
09-22-2004, 11:04 AM
#12
Safety Car
There's also another type of fuel additive. That's fuel stabilizer. You add it to a tank if you're not planning on using your car for a while.
The oil additive Basison is using is a concentrated dose of the stuff they put into any of the oils made for high mileage engines. The stuff conditions the seals and makes them swell, plugging up any small leaks. I have no bias either way on them, but I don't use them.
The oil additives that hurt are the ones called engine treatment (although I am aware Basison's is called that too). They usually have stuff like teflon in them or even microscopic metal bearings. The theory is that it will help reduce friction on the cylinder walls even better than normal oil. The reality is the microparticles will clog up your oil filter, causing a potentially hazardous oil starvation situation.
I don't think you can go wrong with fuel injector cleaner from Techron. Any product from a respected oil company will probably be good.
The oil additive Basison is using is a concentrated dose of the stuff they put into any of the oils made for high mileage engines. The stuff conditions the seals and makes them swell, plugging up any small leaks. I have no bias either way on them, but I don't use them.
The oil additives that hurt are the ones called engine treatment (although I am aware Basison's is called that too). They usually have stuff like teflon in them or even microscopic metal bearings. The theory is that it will help reduce friction on the cylinder walls even better than normal oil. The reality is the microparticles will clog up your oil filter, causing a potentially hazardous oil starvation situation.
I don't think you can go wrong with fuel injector cleaner from Techron. Any product from a respected oil company will probably be good.
09-22-2004, 02:10 PM
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There are a number of fuel injector cleaners that use Techron.
Two that I know of are Chevron Techron (duh), and STP complete.
Techron has a great reputation for cleaning the entire combustion system (injectors, valves, combustion chambers, and piston tops). Just make sure you get the concentration right.
As far as BG44K, I hear good things about it. Many dealerships use it in their fuel injector cleaning equipment. The down side is that it's harder to find, since it's not sold in stores. You have to buy it from a car dealer - and not all dealerships carry it. You have to call around first.
Two that I know of are Chevron Techron (duh), and STP complete.
Techron has a great reputation for cleaning the entire combustion system (injectors, valves, combustion chambers, and piston tops). Just make sure you get the concentration right.
As far as BG44K, I hear good things about it. Many dealerships use it in their fuel injector cleaning equipment. The down side is that it's harder to find, since it's not sold in stores. You have to buy it from a car dealer - and not all dealerships carry it. You have to call around first.
09-22-2004, 04:07 PM
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Totally true about octane, there'e no reason our cars would EVER need any more, and here's the but, UNLESS you are running NOS or a turbo or supercharger, THEN you could and should run the highest octane you can find as these devices put more mixture (gas and air) into the cylinder before it compresses, basically increasing the compression without increasing the compression if you understand what I mean. But under normal conditions, our TL's will run PERFECTLY FINE on 91 and it would be a total waste to run anything higher. The only other advantage to a higher grade gas is that they typically (at least here in canada anyways) put more detergents in the higher grades of gas, so you would be getting that benefit, but that would really be all. As for fuel treatments, I wouldn't recommend them unless you get it done by the dealer and they run a can of injector cleaner right off the fuel rail. The ones you add to your tank can actually damage sensors, I've had two cars have o2 sensors die as soon as I ran the fuel treatment through them. If you use the higher grades of gas (91 included) youshouldn't need to use fuel treatment. As for the oil treatment, you are better off to just use synthetic oil and be done with it. I run Mobile 1 in my car since I got it at 125000 km's, now has 196000 and runs smooth as ever, and I BEAT on my car. Just my 
09-22-2004, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by wackjum
Well since I am at work, and I have no where else to go, I will deign to answer this question yet again.
THE PROPER OCTANE DEPENDS ON YOUR COMPRESSION RATIO.
You read my post, but you didn't seem to comprehend it.
Yes higher octane prevents knock. Yes knock is bad. But no car company currently makes a mass production car that needs higher octane gas from the factory. This is true for Ferrari's and everything else.
A truck with a compression ratio of 8:1 gets by with 87 grade. An Acura TL with a compression ratio of 9.6:1 gets by with 91 grade. It says so in the manual. They designed it to take premium grade. It doesn't knock with 91 so why put more octane in there?
For your information, Supra TT's take premium from the factory. They have a compression of 11:1 I think. So do BMW M3s, Ferrari 360 Modenas, Acura NSXs, Honda S2000s, and a bunch of other high performance/high compression cars. There is A LOT of head room with 91 octane. I promise you your car isn't knocking on 91 grade gas.
FINALLY you said that you're putting in octane booster every 3,000 miles. By my calculations, that's about one tank in ten (300 miles per tank). What about those 9 other tanks? Octane booster has no lasting effect in your engine. It is designed to increase the octane of the tank of gas you mix it with.
THE PROPER OCTANE DEPENDS ON YOUR COMPRESSION RATIO.
You read my post, but you didn't seem to comprehend it.
Yes higher octane prevents knock. Yes knock is bad. But no car company currently makes a mass production car that needs higher octane gas from the factory. This is true for Ferrari's and everything else.
A truck with a compression ratio of 8:1 gets by with 87 grade. An Acura TL with a compression ratio of 9.6:1 gets by with 91 grade. It says so in the manual. They designed it to take premium grade. It doesn't knock with 91 so why put more octane in there?
For your information, Supra TT's take premium from the factory. They have a compression of 11:1 I think. So do BMW M3s, Ferrari 360 Modenas, Acura NSXs, Honda S2000s, and a bunch of other high performance/high compression cars. There is A LOT of head room with 91 octane. I promise you your car isn't knocking on 91 grade gas.
FINALLY you said that you're putting in octane booster every 3,000 miles. By my calculations, that's about one tank in ten (300 miles per tank). What about those 9 other tanks? Octane booster has no lasting effect in your engine. It is designed to increase the octane of the tank of gas you mix it with.
I understood about the compression ratio and everything... howstuffworks.com ... i've been looking at that site... and yeah you are right about putting higher octane in your tank sooo, i stand corrected... but there's that BUT!!!
lol... i'd like to quote Cornflake, not putting cornflake in the middle of this but has a good point... and has about 20,000 more miles than i... "UNLESS you are running NOS or a turbo or supercharger, THEN you could and should run the highest octane you can find as these devices put more mixture (gas and air) into the cylinder before it compresses" which is also very true... now that i have more air to my mixture... the question is... Doesn't that change my compression ratio making it not a waste??? Although its just a little mod, it still changed my compression by just a tad i'm guessing... then again, we weren't talking about my TL in the first place... but now i know... Oh and let me post this thread up that i started which would make this a
... Click here... Sorry for not making myself clear above about the octane boost but i buy it in sets of 4... so i buy only two times between every oil change... lol... so i put it in about 8 times before my oil change... but thats just me and thats why i asked about it before... and thanks for the responses on that thread... and thanks for helping me out to understand this...
09-23-2004, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by spooky3ce
I understood about the compression ratio and everything... howstuffworks.com ... i've been looking at that site... and yeah you are right about putting higher octane in your tank sooo, i stand corrected... but there's that BUT!!! lol... i'd like to quote Cornflake, not putting cornflake in the middle of this but has a good point... and has about 20,000 more miles than i... "UNLESS you are running NOS or a turbo or supercharger, THEN you could and should run the highest octane you can find as these devices put more mixture (gas and air) into the cylinder before it compresses" which is also very true... now that i have more air to my mixture... the question is... Doesn't that change my compression ratio making it not a waste??? Although its just a little mod, it still changed my compression by just a tad i'm guessing... then again, we weren't talking about my TL in the first place... but now i know...
Oh and let me post this thread up that i started which would make this a ... Click here... Sorry for not making myself clear above about the octane boost but i buy it in sets of 4... so i buy only two times between every oil change... lol... so i put it in about 8 times before my oil change... but thats just me and thats why i asked about it before... and thanks for the responses on that thread... and thanks for helping me out to understand this...
lol... i'd like to quote Cornflake, not putting cornflake in the middle of this but has a good point... and has about 20,000 more miles than i... "UNLESS you are running NOS or a turbo or supercharger, THEN you could and should run the highest octane you can find as these devices put more mixture (gas and air) into the cylinder before it compresses" which is also very true... now that i have more air to my mixture... the question is... Doesn't that change my compression ratio making it not a waste??? Although its just a little mod, it still changed my compression by just a tad i'm guessing... then again, we weren't talking about my TL in the first place... but now i know... Oh and let me post this thread up that i started which would make this a
... Click here... Sorry for not making myself clear above about the octane boost but i buy it in sets of 4... so i buy only two times between every oil change... lol... so i put it in about 8 times before my oil change... but thats just me and thats why i asked about it before... and thanks for the responses on that thread... and thanks for helping me out to understand this... 
09-23-2004, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Cornflake
Let me clarify what I said, because I may have inferred something I didn't mean to. Putting a blower, NOS or Turbo doesn't really CHANGE your compressino ratio. The compression ratio is determined by the volume of the cylinder at the LONG end of the stroke, compared to the cylinder volume at the SHORT end of the stroke, how MUCH mixture is in the cylinder doesn't affect how much it is compressed. So your compression ratio will not change unless you PHYSICALLY CHANGE THE ENGINE, by either changing the crank, or pistons/connecting rods, decking the block, or something of that matter. And unless you have done one of these things, you really don't need more than 91 octane, it would just be a waste.
... understood... modification physicly... alright!!!
information overload...
09-23-2004, 11:56 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by spooky3ce
now that i have more air to my mixture... the question is... Doesn't that change my compression ratio making it not a waste??? Although its just a little mod, it still changed my compression by just a tad i'm guessing...
There are two ways to get more air into an engine. The first is normal aspiration (NA). The second is forced induction (FI). A distant third way is nitrous oxide (N2O), but we'll discuss this later.
A factory stock Toyota Echo uses normal aspiration. So does an Integra Type R with a big chrome polished Weapon R cold air intake. Also, surprisingly, so does a Trans Am WS6 with the Ram Air hood.
How is this possible you ask? Well the difference might not be apparent at first. After all, aren't you stuffing air into your engine? Especially with the Ram Air... Isn't that forcing air? In other words FI?
The easiest way to look at this would be with an analogy. Pretend you have a glass of Pepsi and you have a straw. If you used a coffee stirrer as your straw, this would be a factory stock airbox. The hole is tiny and you'd work pretty hard to suck enough Pepsi to drink. If your engine was doing this, it's wasting power trying and waiting to suck enough air.
We help the engine along by installing a K&N cone filter. This would be like a big diameter drinking straw. You can drink your Pepsi a lot easier now.
Finally, let's pretend somebody got a ram air hood scoop made for their TL. I know a number of people here have fashioned custom stuff out of ducts. This would be like having a funnel to your mouth and having somebody pour the Pepsi down.
The important thing here though, is that your mouth stays the same size. If I asked you to fill your mouth up with Pepsi and then spit it into a beaker, the amount would be the same every time, regardless of what method you used to drink it. It might take you 10 seconds to fill your mouth using the coffee stirrer, 2 seconds to fill it with the straw, and 1 second to use the funnel, but that's all that changes.
That's why all of these methods are still NA. You're not really putting more air into the combustion chamber. Instead, you're just making it easier for the engine to get the air it needs.
Now onto the turbocharger/supercharger. These things work by having high speed turbines physically compress the air. Normal air molecules are all far apart (properties of gases, high school chemistry). A turbine spins really fast and compresses the molecules to make the air real dense. The molecules are now closer together. This would be like drinking Pepsi syrup (the stuff they mix with water to get Pepsi). Your mouth is still holding the same volume as before, but you have a lot of "Pepsi flavah" now. If the FI setup has an intercooler, that's an air conditioner for your engine. By making the air colder, it is even more dense.
The result is more air molecules are being crammed into the same amount of space as before. Your compression ratio is the same. There is, however, more stuff being squashed. More things being squashed means more pressure and the potential need for higher octane gas.
09-23-2004, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by wackjum
I'm going to explain air and stuff like that a bit further. Cornflake touched on this, but he didn't keep going with it, leaving you and maybe other readers a little confused.
There are two ways to get more air into an engine. The first is normal aspiration (NA). The second is forced induction (FI). A distant third way is nitrous oxide (N2O), but we'll discuss this later.
A factory stock Toyota Echo uses normal aspiration. So does an Integra Type R with a big chrome polished Weapon R cold air intake. Also, surprisingly, so does a Trans Am WS6 with the Ram Air hood.
How is this possible you ask? Well the difference might not be apparent at first. After all, aren't you stuffing air into your engine? Especially with the Ram Air... Isn't that forcing air? In other words FI?
The easiest way to look at this would be with an analogy. Pretend you have a glass of Pepsi and you have a straw. If you used a coffee stirrer as your straw, this would be a factory stock airbox. The hole is tiny and you'd work pretty hard to suck enough Pepsi to drink. If your engine was doing this, it's wasting power trying and waiting to suck enough air.
We help the engine along by installing a K&N cone filter. This would be like a big diameter drinking straw. You can drink your Pepsi a lot easier now.
Finally, let's pretend somebody got a ram air hood scoop made for their TL. I know a number of people here have fashioned custom stuff out of ducts. This would be like having a funnel to your mouth and having somebody pour the Pepsi down.
The important thing here though, is that your mouth stays the same size. If I asked you to fill your mouth up with Pepsi and then spit it into a beaker, the amount would be the same every time, regardless of what method you used to drink it. It might take you 10 seconds to fill your mouth using the coffee stirrer, 2 seconds to fill it with the straw, and 1 second to use the funnel, but that's all that changes.
That's why all of these methods are still NA. You're not really putting more air into the combustion chamber. Instead, you're just making it easier for the engine to get the air it needs.
Now onto the turbocharger/supercharger. These things work by having high speed turbines physically compress the air. Normal air molecules are all far apart (properties of gases, high school chemistry). A turbine spins really fast and compresses the molecules to make the air real dense. The molecules are now closer together. This would be like drinking Pepsi syrup (the stuff they mix with water to get Pepsi). Your mouth is still holding the same volume as before, but you have a lot of "Pepsi flavah" now. If the FI setup has an intercooler, that's an air conditioner for your engine. By making the air colder, it is even more dense.
The result is more air molecules are being crammed into the same amount of space as before. Your compression ratio is the same. There is, however, more stuff being squashed. More things being squashed means more pressure and the potential need for higher octane gas.
There are two ways to get more air into an engine. The first is normal aspiration (NA). The second is forced induction (FI). A distant third way is nitrous oxide (N2O), but we'll discuss this later.
A factory stock Toyota Echo uses normal aspiration. So does an Integra Type R with a big chrome polished Weapon R cold air intake. Also, surprisingly, so does a Trans Am WS6 with the Ram Air hood.
How is this possible you ask? Well the difference might not be apparent at first. After all, aren't you stuffing air into your engine? Especially with the Ram Air... Isn't that forcing air? In other words FI?
The easiest way to look at this would be with an analogy. Pretend you have a glass of Pepsi and you have a straw. If you used a coffee stirrer as your straw, this would be a factory stock airbox. The hole is tiny and you'd work pretty hard to suck enough Pepsi to drink. If your engine was doing this, it's wasting power trying and waiting to suck enough air.
We help the engine along by installing a K&N cone filter. This would be like a big diameter drinking straw. You can drink your Pepsi a lot easier now.
Finally, let's pretend somebody got a ram air hood scoop made for their TL. I know a number of people here have fashioned custom stuff out of ducts. This would be like having a funnel to your mouth and having somebody pour the Pepsi down.
The important thing here though, is that your mouth stays the same size. If I asked you to fill your mouth up with Pepsi and then spit it into a beaker, the amount would be the same every time, regardless of what method you used to drink it. It might take you 10 seconds to fill your mouth using the coffee stirrer, 2 seconds to fill it with the straw, and 1 second to use the funnel, but that's all that changes.
That's why all of these methods are still NA. You're not really putting more air into the combustion chamber. Instead, you're just making it easier for the engine to get the air it needs.
Now onto the turbocharger/supercharger. These things work by having high speed turbines physically compress the air. Normal air molecules are all far apart (properties of gases, high school chemistry). A turbine spins really fast and compresses the molecules to make the air real dense. The molecules are now closer together. This would be like drinking Pepsi syrup (the stuff they mix with water to get Pepsi). Your mouth is still holding the same volume as before, but you have a lot of "Pepsi flavah" now. If the FI setup has an intercooler, that's an air conditioner for your engine. By making the air colder, it is even more dense.
The result is more air molecules are being crammed into the same amount of space as before. Your compression ratio is the same. There is, however, more stuff being squashed. More things being squashed means more pressure and the potential need for higher octane gas.
Well put. Thanks for finishing my though process. HAHA!! 
09-23-2004, 12:21 PM
#21
Swift 3 B-A-N-G-E-R
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but i get it now... ... thanks for clearing things up... now where's that Nitrous bottle at??? j/k... that would be cool to get nitrous into a 1st gen... but i guess that would be a bit much for me... style and luxury with a bit of power is all i need... just enough power to take down a civic and keep up with the V6's...Again... thanks for clearing things up on this thread...
09-23-2004, 12:23 PM
#22
Reppin' the T-Dot!!
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You're welcome Spook. nevermind, I'm thinkin of putting the bottle on MY 3.2....Wish I'd never sold that kit from my integra more and more each day. But I don't think I'd go as crazy as I did on that car, put an 80 HP DRY shot on a '98 Integra GS. Went like stink! (until the motor was ready to kack out on me and I traded it for the TL!! )
)
09-23-2004, 12:50 PM
#23
Safety Car
Despite what TLXRacer said, I'm still wary of putting nitrous in an automatic.
I had a 1993 Toyota Supra NA a long time ago. Damn that thing was a dog. I think a 1st gen TL would be faster if it had a manual tranny.
The thing about having a car that looks fast is that people with competent machines buzz you. Right now with my painted red calipers (don't hate plz) I get buzzed by Civics and such. Maybe the occasional fellow luxo cruiser. In a Supra, you get challenged by Corvettes and other mean stuff.
I put a 70 shot kit into that car but it had a manual so no worries!
I had a 1993 Toyota Supra NA a long time ago. Damn that thing was a dog. I think a 1st gen TL would be faster if it had a manual tranny.
The thing about having a car that looks fast is that people with competent machines buzz you. Right now with my painted red calipers (don't hate plz) I get buzzed by Civics and such. Maybe the occasional fellow luxo cruiser. In a Supra, you get challenged by Corvettes and other mean stuff.
I put a 70 shot kit into that car but it had a manual so no worries!
09-23-2004, 12:59 PM
#24
Reppin' the T-Dot!!
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Yeah, having the auto does kinda worry me, but I know lots of guys who have done it on other cars, 'Stangs mostly. Works. But by the time I buy the spray I will hopefully have the Legend 6 spd conv. done anyways, so it won't matter!
09-23-2004, 02:46 PM
#25
Swift 3 B-A-N-G-E-R
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Originally Posted by Cornflake
Yeah, having the auto does kinda worry me, but I know lots of guys who have done it on other cars, 'Stangs mostly. Works. But by the time I buy the spray I will hopefully have the Legend 6 spd conv. done anyways, so it won't matter!
... but i think thats a bit drastic for me to do... Site Quoted: Powertrain Options and Availability
All Vigors are powered by a 2.5-liter, 20-valve, 5-cylinder engine, which develops 176 horsepower and 170 pound-feet of torque. A 5-speed manual transmission was standard; 4-speed automatic optional.
Any 2.5 TL owners try that yet???
09-24-2004, 12:39 AM
#27
Safety Car
I personally think those engine treatments are a load of bunk. Shell, Exxon-Mobil, and all of those other big oil companies sink millions into R&D. So do Honda, Toyota, and every other car company. If some kind of product came out that did the miracles these engine treatments say they do, it would have been endorsed a long time ago by big name companies.
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