1rst Gen TL vrs IS300
09-25-2004, 01:22 AM
#1
aCura TL 05
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1rst Gen TL vrs IS300
Hey i was just wondering can a first gen Tl take an IS. Me and an IS were messing around a lil but i got scared on the freeway. Also i ran with a 00 v6 accord from a dead stop were were pretty much neck and neck.
09-25-2004, 01:43 AM
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The Question of the day...
Originally Posted by acuratl05
Hey i was just wondering can a first gen Tl take an IS. Me and an IS were messing around a lil but i got scared on the freeway. Also i ran with a 00 v6 accord from a dead stop were were pretty much neck and neck.
...lol... First of all... i think any car can beat that mini van... thats if you are talking about the SI... i'm guessing but i think its just a typo when you said "IS" ... but check these two sites and compare our 2.5 inline 5 and our 3.2 V6 with the SI's inline 4...
Honda SI... <~~~would be in last place if raced...
Acura 2.5TL... which i have... <~~~would be right behind the 3.2...
Acura 3.2TL... <~~~will take off... stop at a McD's... buy a bigMac and still be at the finish before any of the two...
...but of course i'm exagerating... and this reply is getting a bit long... so i'll leave it at that... when you get or if you already have gotten your 05TL... and if its a V6 which i think they all come that way now... could be wrong though... you can take the SI without a doubt... so can my 2.5 and especially the 3.2's... no doubt about it...
P.S.
I personally don't race... since i consider my car a luxury car, still i would like to know that i have the balls under the hood to smoke a mini-van(SI) lol... or civic if you may...
have fun...Ok... i re-read the title of your question... click here... the IS300 yes... it would probably kill one of our 2.5's... but the 3.2's will surely keep up with it... barely...
09-25-2004, 02:17 AM
#3
Safety Car
Lexus IS300 runs the 7M-GE engine from the Supra. That's a straight six, which means it's naturally balanced and has a nice broad torque band.
I personally don't think any first generation TL that's close to stock could take an IS300 off the line.
First of all, some of those come in manual. If it's a manual, you can wave bye bye and go home. If it's an auto, you still don't have a good chance. I say that because you still have one less gear and you're front wheel drive. The IS300 can drop the hammer from the get go and get plenty of grip. If you cut loose, you're just going to spin your tires.
Don't underestimate the power of an inline engine. There's a reason why BMW uses that configuration for their 3 series. A 330 is a porky car but it does a lot with its 225 hp. For an in-family example, the NSX with 276 hp outruns 380 hp cars. It's all about building excellent engines with fat power bands.
I personally don't think any first generation TL that's close to stock could take an IS300 off the line.
First of all, some of those come in manual. If it's a manual, you can wave bye bye and go home. If it's an auto, you still don't have a good chance. I say that because you still have one less gear and you're front wheel drive. The IS300 can drop the hammer from the get go and get plenty of grip. If you cut loose, you're just going to spin your tires.
Don't underestimate the power of an inline engine. There's a reason why BMW uses that configuration for their 3 series. A 330 is a porky car but it does a lot with its 225 hp. For an in-family example, the NSX with 276 hp outruns 380 hp cars. It's all about building excellent engines with fat power bands.
09-25-2004, 02:39 AM
#4
Safety Car
Also, don't be so quick to rub out the Civic SI. If there's one thing Honda knows, it's how to build rev happy engines. You'll notice the one thing we don't have is a high redline. SOHC in any iteration simply isn't cut out for high revs. Why is the S2000, Integra Type R, and NSX so much faster than their numbers say they should be?
The answer is that they have rev happy engines.
Let's pretend for a moment that Ken97TL and I raced. Ken has the Type II headers installed, which gives him an extra 500 rpm and 30 hp at the cost of 6 lb/ft of torque.
The light turns green and off we go. We launch more or less the same because our torque is so similar. Torque is what "pulls" a car. When you get in a truck with gobs of torque and mash the gas, you get thrown into your seat pretty hard. That's torque.
At around 100 ft, something happens. My car is probably at about 5,500 RPM. My peak torque is at 4,750. The power is dropping off. Ken's car is also at 5,500 RPM but his peak torque is now around 5,250. His power is not dropping off as quickly since he's just barely past it.
In 50 more ft, I now I have to shift. Doing so trades torque multiplication for speed (3.3 gear ratio to 2.1). My car is pulling weaker now while Ken's is still going in 1st gear. He starts building a lead.
Everytime my engine chokes out and has to shift, Ken keeps adding more to his lead. As long as his revs are high, he'll always win out. This is the secret behind the ITR, the S2000, and the NSX. (And the Civic SI to a low key degree).
The answer is that they have rev happy engines.
Let's pretend for a moment that Ken97TL and I raced. Ken has the Type II headers installed, which gives him an extra 500 rpm and 30 hp at the cost of 6 lb/ft of torque.
The light turns green and off we go. We launch more or less the same because our torque is so similar. Torque is what "pulls" a car. When you get in a truck with gobs of torque and mash the gas, you get thrown into your seat pretty hard. That's torque.
At around 100 ft, something happens. My car is probably at about 5,500 RPM. My peak torque is at 4,750. The power is dropping off. Ken's car is also at 5,500 RPM but his peak torque is now around 5,250. His power is not dropping off as quickly since he's just barely past it.
In 50 more ft, I now I have to shift. Doing so trades torque multiplication for speed (3.3 gear ratio to 2.1). My car is pulling weaker now while Ken's is still going in 1st gear. He starts building a lead.
Everytime my engine chokes out and has to shift, Ken keeps adding more to his lead. As long as his revs are high, he'll always win out. This is the secret behind the ITR, the S2000, and the NSX. (And the Civic SI to a low key degree).
09-25-2004, 05:40 AM
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Yeah, my car shifts at around 6,800 rather than the 6,000 or so with the stock V6.
It definitely has more upper band power than before. Plus the Stage II Bayou chip seems to give it even more oomph.
I put down 191 hp at the wheels.
A 6 speed manual would be a real treat. First off, more power directly at the wheels, plus 2 extra gear ratios
As for the original post... a stock 1st gen TL will lose to an IS unless the IS has a very incompetent driver.
It definitely has more upper band power than before. Plus the Stage II Bayou chip seems to give it even more oomph.
I put down 191 hp at the wheels.
A 6 speed manual would be a real treat. First off, more power directly at the wheels, plus 2 extra gear ratios
As for the original post... a stock 1st gen TL will lose to an IS unless the IS has a very incompetent driver.
09-25-2004, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken1997TL
Yeah, my car shifts at around 6,800 rather than the 6,000 or so with the stock V6.
It definitely has more upper band power than before. Plus the Stage II Bayou chip seems to give it even more oomph.
I put down 191 hp at the wheels.
A 6 speed manual would be a real treat. First off, more power directly at the wheels, plus 2 extra gear ratios
As for the original post... a stock 1st gen TL will lose to an IS unless the IS has a very incompetent driver.
It definitely has more upper band power than before. Plus the Stage II Bayou chip seems to give it even more oomph.
I put down 191 hp at the wheels.
A 6 speed manual would be a real treat. First off, more power directly at the wheels, plus 2 extra gear ratios
As for the original post... a stock 1st gen TL will lose to an IS unless the IS has a very incompetent driver.
Gosh damn thats awesome. I dont think that a first gen can touch an IS. Ive always loved the IS, I think that they are beautiful cars.
09-25-2004, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by wackjum
Also, don't be so quick to rub out the Civic SI. If there's one thing Honda knows, it's how to build rev happy engines. You'll notice the one thing we don't have is a high redline. SOHC in any iteration simply isn't cut out for high revs. Why is the S2000, Integra Type R, and NSX so much faster than their numbers say they should be?
The answer is that they have rev happy engines.
Let's pretend for a moment that Ken97TL and I raced. Ken has the Type II headers installed, which gives him an extra 500 rpm and 30 hp at the cost of 6 lb/ft of torque.
The light turns green and off we go. We launch more or less the same because our torque is so similar. Torque is what "pulls" a car. When you get in a truck with gobs of torque and mash the gas, you get thrown into your seat pretty hard. That's torque.
At around 100 ft, something happens. My car is probably at about 5,500 RPM. My peak torque is at 4,750. The power is dropping off. Ken's car is also at 5,500 RPM but his peak torque is now around 5,250. His power is not dropping off as quickly since he's just barely past it.
In 50 more ft, I now I have to shift. Doing so trades torque multiplication for speed (3.3 gear ratio to 2.1). My car is pulling weaker now while Ken's is still going in 1st gear. He starts building a lead.
Everytime my engine chokes out and has to shift, Ken keeps adding more to his lead. As long as his revs are high, he'll always win out. This is the secret behind the ITR, the S2000, and the NSX. (And the Civic SI to a low key degree).
The answer is that they have rev happy engines.
Let's pretend for a moment that Ken97TL and I raced. Ken has the Type II headers installed, which gives him an extra 500 rpm and 30 hp at the cost of 6 lb/ft of torque.
The light turns green and off we go. We launch more or less the same because our torque is so similar. Torque is what "pulls" a car. When you get in a truck with gobs of torque and mash the gas, you get thrown into your seat pretty hard. That's torque.
At around 100 ft, something happens. My car is probably at about 5,500 RPM. My peak torque is at 4,750. The power is dropping off. Ken's car is also at 5,500 RPM but his peak torque is now around 5,250. His power is not dropping off as quickly since he's just barely past it.
In 50 more ft, I now I have to shift. Doing so trades torque multiplication for speed (3.3 gear ratio to 2.1). My car is pulling weaker now while Ken's is still going in 1st gear. He starts building a lead.
Everytime my engine chokes out and has to shift, Ken keeps adding more to his lead. As long as his revs are high, he'll always win out. This is the secret behind the ITR, the S2000, and the NSX. (And the Civic SI to a low key degree).
ITT Technical Institute??? Dad's garage??? Man, i never seen someone with such an accurate veiw of cars... i'm learning everytime you post...
Anyways, Honda's/Acura's are tuned for the high's and not the low's??? meaning that off the line they suck
but after they go through a couple shifts they pick up more speed then a low end tuned car... ... ... i'm thinking to much for my own good... 
and confusing myself...
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09-25-2004, 11:25 AM
#8
Safety Car
Thanks Spooky.
First of all, the numbers in my hypothetical race with Ken are not official. I don't know where the max power RPM is for both of our cars. Those were just my best guess from a general knowledge of engines. Also, I don't know our gear ratios so those were guesstimates too.
Anyway, I can't say that Hondas are tuned for the high end or the low end.
Honda learned a while ago that not everybody enjoys revving the hell out of an engine to get power out of it. Case in point, they dropped the redline of the 2004 S2000 and gave it more low end torque to make it friendlier to drive. Even so, the S2000 has a screaming redline of beyond 8,000
All of Honda's racing/performance style cars are rev happy. Honda's way of making things quick is by having them pull longer.
All of their cruiser cars have bigger engines, which make power down low. You wouldn't want to have to rev your TL's engine to 4,500 everytime you left a light would you? The biggest Honda luxo cruiser would be the current 3.5RL. That thing is a torque beast. I think its max torque comes at a low 3,200 rpm. That screams town cruiser because all you're going to be doing is going from stop to 40 over and over.
Even so, Honda is still biased towards the high end. The TL-S and the 3rd generation TL have phenomenal horsepower, but their torque increase over a standard 2nd gen TL is modest. Same with the 240 hp Accord V6, which posts torque numbers close to the last Accord generation.
I've been doing a lot of thread hijacking recently. All AcuraTL05 wanted to know was if a 1st Gen could take an IS300 (the answer is no). If people want me to, I could write up something on the basic principles of making cars faster in a seperate thread.
First of all, the numbers in my hypothetical race with Ken are not official. I don't know where the max power RPM is for both of our cars. Those were just my best guess from a general knowledge of engines. Also, I don't know our gear ratios so those were guesstimates too.
Anyway, I can't say that Hondas are tuned for the high end or the low end.
Honda learned a while ago that not everybody enjoys revving the hell out of an engine to get power out of it. Case in point, they dropped the redline of the 2004 S2000 and gave it more low end torque to make it friendlier to drive. Even so, the S2000 has a screaming redline of beyond 8,000
All of Honda's racing/performance style cars are rev happy. Honda's way of making things quick is by having them pull longer.
All of their cruiser cars have bigger engines, which make power down low. You wouldn't want to have to rev your TL's engine to 4,500 everytime you left a light would you? The biggest Honda luxo cruiser would be the current 3.5RL. That thing is a torque beast. I think its max torque comes at a low 3,200 rpm. That screams town cruiser because all you're going to be doing is going from stop to 40 over and over.
Even so, Honda is still biased towards the high end. The TL-S and the 3rd generation TL have phenomenal horsepower, but their torque increase over a standard 2nd gen TL is modest. Same with the 240 hp Accord V6, which posts torque numbers close to the last Accord generation.
I've been doing a lot of thread hijacking recently. All AcuraTL05 wanted to know was if a 1st Gen could take an IS300 (the answer is no). If people want me to, I could write up something on the basic principles of making cars faster in a seperate thread.
09-26-2004, 11:39 PM
#9
Racer
Originally Posted by wackjum
Lexus IS300 runs the 7M-GE engine from the Supra. That's a straight six, which means it's naturally balanced and has a nice broad torque band.
Back to the question, an IS 300 would definitely beat a 3.2TL, with RWD, six-speed, or the automatic where you can still shift, and more torque and hp, we would probably keep up, maybe.
09-26-2004, 11:58 PM
#10
Safety Car
Wow really? I always thought the IS300 used the 7M-GE just like the SC300.
After all, the make twin turbo kits for the IS300.
(Kept in to show my stupidity) Oh by the way, the 7M-GE is in the last generation (1993-1997) Supra. I don't know why I glossed over that. The 7M-GTE was in the turbo Supra. (/End Kept in part)
Ok yes I'm sorry. I dunno why I was so bent on the 7M engine being the last iteration of the Supra engine. I knew something was wrong when I made this post...
After all, the make twin turbo kits for the IS300.
(Kept in to show my stupidity) Oh by the way, the 7M-GE is in the last generation (1993-1997) Supra. I don't know why I glossed over that. The 7M-GTE was in the turbo Supra. (/End Kept in part)
Ok yes I'm sorry. I dunno why I was so bent on the 7M engine being the last iteration of the Supra engine. I knew something was wrong when I made this post...
09-27-2004, 07:42 AM
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Very comprehensive posts WackJum. Anyone who doesn't understand the torque/horsepower distinction, or why Honda engines are good despite being small, should read your post.
But we've got a decent amount of power in our cars and I'm satisfied with how it pulls on the on ramp. Def. not built for racing though.
I don't know if I'd want an IS. I'm 6'3" so I barely fit in my 2.5. That IS looks small. Although I did see this thing on TV once where they put at GS400 V8 into an IS; that car was hot.
But we've got a decent amount of power in our cars and I'm satisfied with how it pulls on the on ramp. Def. not built for racing though.
I don't know if I'd want an IS. I'm 6'3" so I barely fit in my 2.5. That IS looks small. Although I did see this thing on TV once where they put at GS400 V8 into an IS; that car was hot.
09-27-2004, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by AznImports602
FYI the lexus IS 300 comes with a 2JZGE enigne, the 7M-GE is in the second to last generation of the supra. Also they might make the IS 400, which is the same v8 engine from the gs430.
Back to the question, an IS 300 would definitely beat a 3.2TL, with RWD, six-speed, or the automatic where you can still shift, and more torque and hp, we would probably keep up, maybe.
Back to the question, an IS 300 would definitely beat a 3.2TL, with RWD, six-speed, or the automatic where you can still shift, and more torque and hp, we would probably keep up, maybe.
09-27-2004, 11:04 AM
#13
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Those 04 TL's put down 230 at the wheel. 
How do you control that kind of power to the front wheels? Has anybody driven one? (Yeah I don't want to ask this in the 3rd Gen)
How do you control that kind of power to the front wheels? Has anybody driven one? (Yeah I don't want to ask this in the 3rd Gen)
09-27-2004, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wackjum
Those 04 TL's put down 230 at the wheel.
How do you control that kind of power to the front wheels? Has anybody driven one? (Yeah I don't want to ask this in the 3rd Gen)
How do you control that kind of power to the front wheels? Has anybody driven one? (Yeah I don't want to ask this in the 3rd Gen)
Equal length half shafts, traction control and precise engineering go a long ways to reduce torque steer.
Sure there are 600 hp Civics that people modify but you have to be driving on SMOOTH pavement if you plan on doing a full throttle launch or else you'll be 4 lanes over.
09-27-2004, 03:25 PM
#15
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That's what Honda said in some article. They felt that 270ish was the upper limit for front wheel drive. Any other cars in the future from them would have the RL's system if it had more than 270.
I'm not too concerned about the torque steer. More like the launch grip. I'm already having serious issues in the rain when I'm accelerating from a stop. Then again, I have some pretty non-sticky general passenger tires and I tend to drive with a heavy foot.
I'm not too concerned about the torque steer. More like the launch grip. I'm already having serious issues in the rain when I'm accelerating from a stop. Then again, I have some pretty non-sticky general passenger tires and I tend to drive with a heavy foot.
09-27-2004, 03:29 PM
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Yeah, sticky tires are necessary.
Traction control helps (if you have it) as well.
Traction control helps (if you have it) as well.
09-27-2004, 03:40 PM
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I wish I had trac control; But to answer the question, the IS300 would definately spank the 2.5 and the 3.2 would get beat for sure, but not by as much. A 3.2 with a 6 spd would make a HECK of a difference. Man I can't wait till I win the lottery and can afford to do everything I REALLY want to do to this car....:dream: 6 Spd conversion, 3.5 RL block swap, turbo........
But to answer the question, the IS300 would definately spank the 2.5 and the 3.2 would get beat for sure, but not by as much. A 3.2 with a 6 spd would make a HECK of a difference. Man I can't wait till I win the lottery and can afford to do everything I REALLY want to do to this car....:dream: 6 Spd conversion, 3.5 RL block swap, turbo........
09-28-2004, 06:35 PM
#18
man if u win the lottery then just buy a ferrari... u would probably spend less money than doing all that to the TL... 
... im a liar tho cause i would probably try to make the fastest first gen TL if i won the lottery.. . and put it in the garage next to my ferrari...
... im a liar tho cause i would probably try to make the fastest first gen TL if i won the lottery.. . and put it in the garage next to my ferrari...
09-29-2004, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by AznImports602
Back to the question, an IS 300 would definitely beat a 3.2TL, with RWD, six-speed, or the automatic where you can still shift, and more torque and hp, we would probably keep up, maybe.
Originally Posted by WBroylesH
I don't know if I'd want an IS. I'm 6'3" so I barely fit in my 2.5. That IS looks small.
09-30-2004, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by KaMLuNg
man if u win the lottery then just buy a ferrari... u would probably spend less money than doing all that to the TL... ... im a liar tho cause i would probably try to make the fastest first gen TL if i won the lottery.. . and put it in the garage next to my ferrari...
... im a liar tho cause i would probably try to make the fastest first gen TL if i won the lottery.. . and put it in the garage next to my ferrari...
Exactly, there would DEFINATELY be a 512 TR or F512M beside the TL, but the TL would still be there. After having driven g/f's uncle's 512 TR a few weeks ago, I KNOW I gotta get me one of those!!!
09-30-2004, 12:29 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by Ken1997TL
Yeah, my car shifts at around 6,800 rather than the 6,000 or so with the stock V6.
It definitely has more upper band power than before. Plus the Stage II Bayou chip seems to give it even more oomph.
I put down 191 hp at the wheels.
A 6 speed manual would be a real treat. First off, more power directly at the wheels, plus 2 extra gear ratios
As for the original post... a stock 1st gen TL will lose to an IS unless the IS has a very incompetent driver.
It definitely has more upper band power than before. Plus the Stage II Bayou chip seems to give it even more oomph.
I put down 191 hp at the wheels.
A 6 speed manual would be a real treat. First off, more power directly at the wheels, plus 2 extra gear ratios
As for the original post... a stock 1st gen TL will lose to an IS unless the IS has a very incompetent driver.
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