Lets talk about engines
03-19-2005, 07:59 PM
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Lets talk about engines
Ok, is anyone here running a high compression all motor F22 engineIf so, what did you use to accomplish this? I was thinking about doing this rather than swapping in a h22, cause id rather make some sohc power for fun and i don't have an engine yet. So heres what i was thinking. A Multi-layer steel head gasket with a layer or 2 removed (similar to what is done in a mini-me, not sure if you guys know about mini-me engines), possibly pistons from another engine, rather than new. What is the stock bore on an f22 and are the h22 pistons any different? So with a thinner head gasket and higher compression pistons, and a milled head with flat faced valves, i would reach, optimally, 12:1 - 13:1 cr. What is the compression of other F22 engines on here? Any build ideas are welcome. Thanks
03-19-2005, 08:57 PM
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hahahahhahaha, you are asking the wrong questions for this site. there is only a few people here that know that kinda shit and they hardly ever post. go over to honda-tech.com if you want answers.
03-19-2005, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LCARUCA 97
hahahahhahaha, you are asking the wrong questions for this site. there is only a few people here that know that kinda shit and they hardly ever post. go over to honda-tech.com if you want answers.
03-19-2005, 10:32 PM
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basically if you want to start really building the motor, ditch the f22b2 head and swap in an f22a6 head...the a6 head is nonvtec but has better flowing ports than the b2
h23 throttle body is much larger than the f22
nobody makes an aftermarket cam, but you can get a nice regrind (link will be found in the links posted later)
to get you started:
http://www.accordinglydone.com/forum...&highlight=f22
filter through these:
http://www.accordinglydone.com/forum...searchid=33856
sorry i'm in a hurry but there should be enough links to get you started for a bit
h23 throttle body is much larger than the f22
nobody makes an aftermarket cam, but you can get a nice regrind (link will be found in the links posted later)
to get you started:
http://www.accordinglydone.com/forum...&highlight=f22
filter through these:
http://www.accordinglydone.com/forum...searchid=33856
sorry i'm in a hurry but there should be enough links to get you started for a bit
03-20-2005, 09:27 AM
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Thanks. Those links helped. It seems that reaching a compression of 12:1 or 13:1 would be exceptionally difficult on an f22, since stock is only 8.8:1. My mini-me engine i built for my civic runs at 12.1:1, so im kinda suprised the F series engine can't be taken higher easily. Anyways, i know you guys said that no one really knows this stuff, but maybe azian21485 or someone knows by some chance. A couple people are running turbos on this site, what kind of compression are these turbo engines at? Also what is the piston bore on an F22? Once again, thanks in advance.
03-20-2005, 11:47 AM
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lol i was figuring you'd talk about boost after seeing how much work it takes to get n/a power from a f series (well d series are the same but parts are cheaper =) )
someone on h-t is running 14 psi on a stock block..he's run 17 psi a few times...you can talk to him if you want...his setup is in the link
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=704627
from what i've seen, everyone keeps stock compression...but in the first link of my first post there's a guy named scmuckingham running 10:2:1 compression...i'm pretty sure his motor is built though
also, stay away from complete kits...just source your parts together
if you're low on cash, some components off a 1st gen manifold will bolt up fine to an f22
http://www.accordinglydone.com/forum...light=junkyard
which reminds me, what year is your cl?
someone on h-t is running 14 psi on a stock block..he's run 17 psi a few times...you can talk to him if you want...his setup is in the link
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=704627
from what i've seen, everyone keeps stock compression...but in the first link of my first post there's a guy named scmuckingham running 10:2:1 compression...i'm pretty sure his motor is built though
also, stay away from complete kits...just source your parts together
if you're low on cash, some components off a 1st gen manifold will bolt up fine to an f22
http://www.accordinglydone.com/forum...light=junkyard
which reminds me, what year is your cl?
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03-20-2005, 01:18 PM
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Yeah i don't have a CL yet, im just seriously looking into buying one. I have my civic, but its not the best daily driver anymore cause the car sits 2 inches from the ground and i live in PA where the roads suck. So i want to buy a more... lets say...classy... car within the honda/acura family to work on and sell my civic. Thanks for the links, seems like the CL will work for the setup i want.
03-20-2005, 06:41 PM
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cool..goodluck then
keep in mind that the earlier models (dunno what year) came with the f22 and later ones came with f23...they are the same engine practically, but some things don't bolt on to both (ie manifolds and such)
keep in mind that the earlier models (dunno what year) came with the f22 and later ones came with f23...they are the same engine practically, but some things don't bolt on to both (ie manifolds and such)
03-20-2005, 07:25 PM
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first question... why would u use a multi layer head gasket, then take away a layer or two?
second why would u go thru all the trouble of making a high compression engine, and use used pistons? theres alot more to making a high compression engine than changing pistons and using a thinner head gasket. theres deck height, cam durations, crank stroke, piston type (dome, flat, etc.) theres the actual cylinder walls bein able to take this ammount of compression. sleeving, boring, not to mention the stock j2x head cannot take that much compression for very long. dogg...if u want high compression go with the h22.
second why would u go thru all the trouble of making a high compression engine, and use used pistons? theres alot more to making a high compression engine than changing pistons and using a thinner head gasket. theres deck height, cam durations, crank stroke, piston type (dome, flat, etc.) theres the actual cylinder walls bein able to take this ammount of compression. sleeving, boring, not to mention the stock j2x head cannot take that much compression for very long. dogg...if u want high compression go with the h22.
03-20-2005, 07:29 PM
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yeah if you really want to get a higher compression f22 get an older sohc (92-96 i belive are the years) prelude non-vtec one cuz this guy around here has an accord with one and its pretty quick
03-20-2005, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by wilp99
first question... why would u use a multi layer head gasket, then take away a layer or two?
second why would u go thru all the trouble of making a high compression engine, and use used pistons? theres alot more to making a high compression engine than changing pistons and using a thinner head gasket. theres deck height, cam durations, crank stroke, piston type (dome, flat, etc.) theres the actual cylinder walls bein able to take this ammount of compression. sleeving, boring, not to mention the stock j2x head cannot take that much compression for very long. dogg...if u want high compression go with the h22.
second why would u go thru all the trouble of making a high compression engine, and use used pistons? theres alot more to making a high compression engine than changing pistons and using a thinner head gasket. theres deck height, cam durations, crank stroke, piston type (dome, flat, etc.) theres the actual cylinder walls bein able to take this ammount of compression. sleeving, boring, not to mention the stock j2x head cannot take that much compression for very long. dogg...if u want high compression go with the h22.
To address your questions about the compression:
1. Stock honda/acura headgaskets are not metal they are compressed rubber and other composite materials. Metal head gaskets are much more reliable and reduce the chance of a blowout or leak. Most aftermarket metal headgaskets have 3 layers. Since they are so much more reliable, it is possible to remove a layer, reducing the deck to head distance, therefore increasing the compression ratio. It is not necessarily a reccomended method, but it has been done by many many people (mini-me builds) and had no negative consequence.
2. About the pistons, i wasn't necessarily saying i was going to use used pistons, but it much cheaper to locate pistons from a stock engine rather than aftermarket pistons. For example, using Civic type R pistons rather than USDM pistons to effectively increase the compression. Once again looking at other options...im on a budget.
3. Deck height. I addressed this by saying i would get the head milled, therefore reducing the deck to head height. Also the thinner head gasket would accomplish this too.
4. Cam durations, and crank stroke. While ill admit these play a part in a high compression engine, they would really affect the compression ratio. I could really care less about the crank stroke, cause im not talking about stroking the engine, the 2.2 is fine. If i did change this it would affect the compression, but that does not play a part now. Cam duration also is somewhat negliable because that will control the physical characteristics of the valve durations, not necessarily the compression ratio. Changing this will defiantely help the engine perform better under a higher compression ratio, but once again, im not really worried about this now.
5. I said id use flat faced valves. Stock are concave...flat faced are flat. Smaller cylinder volume, effectively increases the cylinder compression.
6. The stock honda engines are built quite strong and are more than able to take the added pressure and heat of a high compression engine with no problem at all. Now if i was turboing, the pressure from that would affect the actual cylinders over time, but a high compression engine wont have the same effects. The block will be fine. Im not boring it out and not sleeving it cause i don't want to, theres really no reason to for my application.
7. Finally, im not sure what "j2x" refers to, assuming its the head code, like i had mentioned im not real familiar with the f series engine in particular, but i do have an extensive knowledge of honda engines. With the valvetrain upgrades (valves, which i mentioned and the implied springs and retainers) the head will be more than capable of handling a higher compression. Engines become more efficient when the compression is higher, means runs better and makes more power. Cylinder pressure and compression are two different things, they are related, but are still different.
Thats my explanation. Hopes it clears up my thinking for you.
03-20-2005, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bkmc24
yeah if you really want to get a higher compression f22 get an older sohc (92-96 i belive are the years) prelude non-vtec one cuz this guy around here has an accord with one and its pretty quick
03-20-2005, 08:15 PM
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I have built high compression Honda engines before, including my most recent, which was a mini me. A 1.5 liter 103hp non-vtec engine, turned into a 1.5 liter 166hp vtec engine. I did this using pistons from a ZC engine, MLS headgasket and the other stuff which i mentioned above (milling, valves, and so on). Along with an all motor B18b, and an all motor d15b7. So i do know what im doing, i was just wondering if anyone else had done something similar, cause im curious about other build ideas.
03-20-2005, 08:26 PM
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Spelling correction:
4. Cam durations, and crank stroke. While ill admit these play a part in a high compression engine, they WOULDN'T really affect the compression ratio. I could really care less about the crank stroke, cause im not talking about stroking the engine, the 2.2 is fine. If i did change this it would affect the compression, but that does not play a part now. Cam duration also is somewhat negliable because that will control the physical characteristics of the valve durations, not necessarily the compression ratio. Changing this will defiantely help the engine perform better under a higher compression ratio, but once again, im not really worried about this now.
4. Cam durations, and crank stroke. While ill admit these play a part in a high compression engine, they WOULDN'T really affect the compression ratio. I could really care less about the crank stroke, cause im not talking about stroking the engine, the 2.2 is fine. If i did change this it would affect the compression, but that does not play a part now. Cam duration also is somewhat negliable because that will control the physical characteristics of the valve durations, not necessarily the compression ratio. Changing this will defiantely help the engine perform better under a higher compression ratio, but once again, im not really worried about this now.
03-20-2005, 09:14 PM
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yeah i know the old ones had the b20's, im not real familar with obd0 engines, so i just neglected to mention that. I wasn't aware that some 4th gens had f22s, thanks for the info. Id assume that they would still be obd1 though. But i didn't know that anyway. Thanks
03-20-2005, 09:17 PM
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yea...what he said. must be 
Originally Posted by mongose99
First ill just say i think im going with the H22, but im just weighing the options.
To address your questions about the compression:
1. Stock honda/acura headgaskets are not metal they are compressed rubber and other composite materials. Metal head gaskets are much more reliable and reduce the chance of a blowout or leak. Most aftermarket metal headgaskets have 3 layers. Since they are so much more reliable, it is possible to remove a layer, reducing the deck to head distance, therefore increasing the compression ratio. It is not necessarily a reccomended method, but it has been done by many many people (mini-me builds) and had no negative consequence.
2. About the pistons, i wasn't necessarily saying i was going to use used pistons, but it much cheaper to locate pistons from a stock engine rather than aftermarket pistons. For example, using Civic type R pistons rather than USDM pistons to effectively increase the compression. Once again looking at other options...im on a budget.
3. Deck height. I addressed this by saying i would get the head milled, therefore reducing the deck to head height. Also the thinner head gasket would accomplish this too.
4. Cam durations, and crank stroke. While ill admit these play a part in a high compression engine, they would really affect the compression ratio. I could really care less about the crank stroke, cause im not talking about stroking the engine, the 2.2 is fine. If i did change this it would affect the compression, but that does not play a part now. Cam duration also is somewhat negliable because that will control the physical characteristics of the valve durations, not necessarily the compression ratio. Changing this will defiantely help the engine perform better under a higher compression ratio, but once again, im not really worried about this now.
5. I said id use flat faced valves. Stock are concave...flat faced are flat. Smaller cylinder volume, effectively increases the cylinder compression.
6. The stock honda engines are built quite strong and are more than able to take the added pressure and heat of a high compression engine with no problem at all. Now if i was turboing, the pressure from that would affect the actual cylinders over time, but a high compression engine wont have the same effects. The block will be fine. Im not boring it out and not sleeving it cause i don't want to, theres really no reason to for my application.
7. Finally, im not sure what "j2x" refers to, assuming its the head code, like i had mentioned im not real familiar with the f series engine in particular, but i do have an extensive knowledge of honda engines. With the valvetrain upgrades (valves, which i mentioned and the implied springs and retainers) the head will be more than capable of handling a higher compression. Engines become more efficient when the compression is higher, means runs better and makes more power. Cylinder pressure and compression are two different things, they are related, but are still different.
Thats my explanation. Hopes it clears up my thinking for you.
To address your questions about the compression:
1. Stock honda/acura headgaskets are not metal they are compressed rubber and other composite materials. Metal head gaskets are much more reliable and reduce the chance of a blowout or leak. Most aftermarket metal headgaskets have 3 layers. Since they are so much more reliable, it is possible to remove a layer, reducing the deck to head distance, therefore increasing the compression ratio. It is not necessarily a reccomended method, but it has been done by many many people (mini-me builds) and had no negative consequence.
2. About the pistons, i wasn't necessarily saying i was going to use used pistons, but it much cheaper to locate pistons from a stock engine rather than aftermarket pistons. For example, using Civic type R pistons rather than USDM pistons to effectively increase the compression. Once again looking at other options...im on a budget.
3. Deck height. I addressed this by saying i would get the head milled, therefore reducing the deck to head height. Also the thinner head gasket would accomplish this too.
4. Cam durations, and crank stroke. While ill admit these play a part in a high compression engine, they would really affect the compression ratio. I could really care less about the crank stroke, cause im not talking about stroking the engine, the 2.2 is fine. If i did change this it would affect the compression, but that does not play a part now. Cam duration also is somewhat negliable because that will control the physical characteristics of the valve durations, not necessarily the compression ratio. Changing this will defiantely help the engine perform better under a higher compression ratio, but once again, im not really worried about this now.
5. I said id use flat faced valves. Stock are concave...flat faced are flat. Smaller cylinder volume, effectively increases the cylinder compression.
6. The stock honda engines are built quite strong and are more than able to take the added pressure and heat of a high compression engine with no problem at all. Now if i was turboing, the pressure from that would affect the actual cylinders over time, but a high compression engine wont have the same effects. The block will be fine. Im not boring it out and not sleeving it cause i don't want to, theres really no reason to for my application.
7. Finally, im not sure what "j2x" refers to, assuming its the head code, like i had mentioned im not real familiar with the f series engine in particular, but i do have an extensive knowledge of honda engines. With the valvetrain upgrades (valves, which i mentioned and the implied springs and retainers) the head will be more than capable of handling a higher compression. Engines become more efficient when the compression is higher, means runs better and makes more power. Cylinder pressure and compression are two different things, they are related, but are still different.
Thats my explanation. Hopes it clears up my thinking for you.
03-21-2005, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bkmc24
yeah if you really want to get a higher compression f22 get an older sohc (92-96 i belive are the years) prelude non-vtec one cuz this guy around here has an accord with one and its pretty quick
03-21-2005, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by azian21485
the 4th gen prelude S uses the f22b2...nonvtec sohc...found in accord lx and dx models..nothing special about that motor
03-22-2005, 04:22 AM
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since on the topic of f22's...here's a nice build....just stay on the first page...the thread gets pointless after that
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1185790&page=1
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1185790&page=1
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