TechnoCat

I was one of the first to get a TL SH-AWD 6MT, and it's pretty obvious that while it may have been the right car based on the data I had available in a 10 minute test drive in the rain at night, given that there was one BMW 335i-xDrive 6MT in the western US (and that was at a dock still), it hasn't been optimal for me.

Thursday I tried shopping for the BMWs again. They still have essentially no availability, especially in my area. BMW cars (not SUVs quite) are essentially sold out. Odd, there are lots of TL SH-AWDs available, but no BMWs.

So Friday I wandered back into the Audi dealer. Told them of my allergy to four-bangers and inability to drive automatic. They showed me a car they'd just gotten in, a 2011 S4 Premium Plus (which is the base model, despite the name) 6MT. Offered to let me have it for the night.

I liked it, a lot. More on that in a bit. And it wasn't that much more than the TL SH-AWD; base price is pretty nicely equipped and $46K. It was under $50K as equipped including nav. But due to having to ferry around a dog and having a lot of crap in the TL, I figured I'd just bring the SO back on Saturday.

I did. The car was gone. As with so many Audis, the thing sold almost instantly. Audi sales are up 30% in this recession, and BMW sales are way up too. Oddly, Acura TL sales aren't. Wonder why...

Now a digression. I bought this TL in late November. I have since merged finances and lives with someone I care immensely about. And she can't drive - she is legally blind (she can "see", but it doesn't get processed correctly" due to an accident 15 years ago. And she, like me, is very fit. She's maybe 110 pounds on a really bad day. The TL seats are huge for us, but the head restraint incredibly painful. Some of you have a different experience, but trust me - if you're very low on the body fat percentage scale (not BMI, body fat), the TL will hurt you. Your spine is right against the leather, and your neck doesn't curve that way. The TL seats were designed for people a bit more barrel-shaped, i.e. normal folk.

And I kept previous cars I purchased for an average of like eight years. So eight months is completely out.

I wasn't very hopeful that she'd really let me get a new car. And if she did, I figured it'd be pretty base.

We get back to Audi. The stick is gone. But we test drive, so she can get some right-side-seat time (comfort is critical due to after-effects of the accident.) Some of her observations:

• The S4 head restraint is integrated into the seat. It's not perfect, but is far better for her.
• The seats are far better for her.
• The car is much quieter at all speeds.
• She played with the sun/moonroof and at one point said to the salesman behind us, is it open? It was and we were going 50; it's just so much quieter compared to the TL that she didn't know.
• The S4 has a far smaller turning radius. Much much tighter.
• The suspension (quiet and cushy ride) in the S4 is much better than the TL, though to be fair the TL is pretty good. She cared more about this than I; I think the TL is fine. But on speedbumps the difference is amazing.
• She claims the S4 drives far smoother, less jerky. MotorTrend mentioned this, something about how the power comes on and the clutch has quirky uptake. It never bothered me.
• She adored the trunk and folding seats. She insisted on crawling in. Later she explained that she's used to car-camping that way, and the TL simply didn't allow for it. The S4 is fantastic for it.
• She opened the glovebox and delightedly exclaimed that it was a useful size-and-shape. (The TL's shelf in there really annoys her.)
• The trip computer and Nav play well together. They aren't even talking in the TL. In the S4, nav arrows etc appear in the display right in front of you (where the TL can put range, tire pressure, torque vectoring, etc.) and also the song title currently playing, even though this same data may be on the MMI NAV (which may instead have a map, traffic warnings, etc.)
• The iPod interface really works. Less than five seconds to Werewolves of London... by song TITLE! Artist would have been quicker.
• Nav find Costco works better too - you don't have to choose which type of costco (from five options) and then realize that despite the sorting it's showing you one 1000 miles away like in the TL. (That's really my only Nav gripe with the TL, which has a pretty good nav system in general.)
• Have I mentioned the styrofoam? This was a major source of mirth at the Audi store. Open your front door. Look towards the engine compartment. You will see black cellular styrofoam as part of the fender material. Now go to Audi or BMW. You see closed painted sheet metal. This may be more of a perception than a quality issue... but once you notice it, it's a pretty big WTF issue.
• The Audi nav/MMI system is much better designed in some ways - much more information and control there. (For example, why can't you set your lighting options on the Acura equivalent, instead of having to go to the trip computer in the Acura? The Audi does it on the big display.) But... the controls are far easier in the Acura.

Some things have changed:

• The S4 has the same types of hinges in the trunk now as the TL.
• Electrically folding mirrors are gone.
• No headlight washers. I will miss those.

And Audi may big-bucks you to death, but they don't nickel you to death; an iPod cable and a trunk net are still included, unlike the TL.

And there are the downsides. The S4 Premium Pack (base) has a lot of great features, but to get the keyless entry/start (which I got addicted to in the TL) requires moving up to the Prestige package... and now it's a $50K car. I had decided Friday that, if she was going to tolerate me getting a new car, I'd sacrifice that. And the TL is larger. The TL trunk seems smaller, but the back is larger. Ironically, that's a negative for us; the TL doesn't fit in spaces I'm used to, and again, we're narrow-sized people. She told me it was far more comfortable to hold my hand while we drive in the S4 because she wasn't so far away, but I understand that many (including Winslovtec) think of size and value/class as tightly intertwined, regardless of Porsche.

So now what? Much to my surprise, she's saying we should, since there aren't any 6MTs immediately available, order one. We are trying to get a dealer swap done from about 800 miles away, but again, these puppies sell out fast.

Have you read this far? Boogha Boogha Boogha Whooya!

There's another huge downside to the TL. It's depreciated like nobody's business. Trade-in is about $29K on an 8-month-old car that Acura MSRPs at $42,345. In reality, the local database shows they sell for $39K new after official discounts... before negotiating. Add eight months of wear-and-tear (and somewhat high mileage) to reduce the salesprice, and the $3-4K margin needed for the transfers, documentation, inspections and clean-up, and that's reasonable. But that does mean that I'm taking a huge bath financially... if we're able to find an available car.

My Bottom Line
The TL isn't a bad "car". It's a great car, hampered by three real problems and several unique to me.
Real Problems

• The head restraints are uncomfortable for many people. (This is true of a lot of cars, but as the Audi proved, they can be annoying and safe but less painful than in the TL.)
• The styling is costing sales and value. Note that Acura is redoing the front grill very soon; what will that do to resale value?
• It's over-priced for the market they want.

TechnoCat's Gripes

• AWD isn't good at preventing problems though it's great at recovery.
• No flat trunk, no folding seats, no ipod search, cubbies not padded... all standard in the $46K ($4K more) Audi S4.

I really believe the TL was almost perfect. If they had flocked the cubbies, made the head restraints less aggressive, used a decent iPod interface and a quieter moonroof, the rest would be fine (even lacking folding seats (again, standard on the S4 and equipped (though not quite standard) on the BMW 335s.) I don't care about the Nav search difference, or the fact that the S4 has keyless locking controls on the back as well as front doors, for example, if the basics are right.

andrec8513

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...

Pete2010

This I still don't understand. For someone to claim to be such a auto enthusiast, why did you test drive it one time for 10 minutes at night in the rain? But then you go and spend a whole day with the S4 detailing every possible option in graphic detail?

While I am a larger guy (6'2" 200lbs) and I love how the car fits. I was surprised to see that when I was teaching my wife to drive she loved the seats and the headrest was about 1.5" from the back of her head. She adjusted the seat to ensure it was not pushing her head forward. She is about 5'5 115, so I'm not sure if your theory works out there. But there is a reason there are so many cars available, not everyone is built the same.

It's painfully obvious that you and the TL never agreed with each other, and hopefully that is a lesson for next time when you buy a car to spend more than 10 min at night in the rain taking it for a test drive. But it sounds like you're on your way to selling the TL and getting the S4. Enjoy it, because life is too short and there are too many other important things to care about in life than being unhappy about a car.

Also - Yes - Cars depreciate the most in the 1st year. You need to keep them at least 3 to gain full benefit (which I don't need to tell you that, as you've had many cars for a long time). But when trading in @ a dealer, expect to lose at least 2-4 thousand extra. I think an accurate value for the car (depending on miles) is probably about 33-35. I bet they put your car on the lot for $35k.

coffeefingers

In the time it took you to think up and write this article you could have gone to the Audi dealer, traded in your TL and picked up the S4.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

I've had my suspicions for a while now but I'm now convinced your a TROLL. Order your Audi with all the right "basics" and please leave the 4GTL owners alone. If your gripes and priorities in a car were genuine, you would have never bought a TL. Admit it, the 6MT is not that important to you.

crxb

all this for some $7k more than the TL - sorry to say but agree w/ above posts - u should have spent more time on your TL test drive b4 you purchased.

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

No one here is going to care. Great write-up but you might be on the wrong forum.

VTEC Racer

Has this guy ever posted pics of "his" TL?

JAB00

Great write up? His post was almost incomprehensible. I got that the TL is a good car but the headrest and his legally blind wife's desire to hold his hand while they drive are the primary reasons he wants to get an Audi.

TechnoCat

You didn't read it! They sold the S4 between when I test drove it (Friday 3pm) and when i got my SO there (Saturday 11am), and there aren't any others nearby. So no, I couldn't accomplish that in the time it took. But we are waiting on a dealer trade.

TechnoCat

A troll went and spent $40K (plus a 4 year extended warranty and having the dealer customize the grill) just to attack the TL? Fascinating.

No, the 6MT is one of two requirements, the other being AWD.

FallenTSX

I got my 10 6mt on 10/03/09, and I love it. All my friends and family loves it and hates me for having it. The size is great, especially having one child and another on the way. Unfortunately for them, I like to modify all cars that I have. Coming off from 2 Nissan 240s and 2 EGs. I would agree to posts above, you should have spent more time in the TL and have your girlfriend/wife, go with you before making the decision. But, its your car, to each his own. Good luck on the search!

-DeL

TechnoCat

This is absolutely true. It is my error; I assumed that the Acura would be the equivalent of the luxury cars I'm used to - Audi, BMW, Mercedes, even Cadillac (CTS) and Lincoln (MKz.) Had I done a longer more cautious test drive, I would have known. It just didn't occur to me that the Acura would fall so short of my expectations. I'm much more cautious (not just about Acura) now.

NwTSXmt

OP..Enjoy your new Audi....seee ya

TechnoCat

Yeah, real mature of you. Have you ever posted pics of your male genetalia? Oh! By your logic, you must not have any! Prove otherwise!




Anyhow, here you go...

• The black plenum:
  
• 
• The styrofoam:
• 
• The interior (which is pretty nice except the restraints.)
• 

VTEC Racer

Asking for pictures of your car is immature? The immature act is ranting on the internet about how much you dislike your car and how much more you like another car. What does Audi or BMW sales have to do with how much you dislike the TL? Are you using it just as a reference to justify your possible purchase of an Audi and your dismissal of Acura? Yeah, REAL mature. I've also never claimed to have male genitalia so why would I need to post pictures of it?

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

Can you blame him? Your post was about the size of a Nora Roberts novel.

Tonyny

?

winstrolvtec

That may be the case but posture, seat and head restraint position also have a lot to do with it.

Guess that doesn't make it a luxury car or anymore luxurious for that matter. Hey man you talk a lot of smack especially about those "luxury" features, just returning the favor.

Size has a lot to do with value if you need a larger car that performs as well as it's competitive set, is less expensive and very well equipped in comparison and size is half of the distinction that makes up a class in the first place. Value example, the size equivalent A6 with the level of features and options found in the TL is nearly $20k more. For the size shopper in the luxury segments, not overly concerned with a few details and/or one on a set budget, that's HUGE but for a shopper like yourself maybe that $20k is worth it. It's yours or other people's money, not mine.

Your car and situation really have no bearing on the TL's depreciation or resale as a whole. First off, you are walking into an Audi dealer with a target on your back, you do have an 8 month old car looking to get into a new one, so that is that. Secondly, you have a very high amount of mileage which I can tell from other posts that you failed to mention in this one. As others have said, the biggest depreciation is in the first year, normally 20%, which if you go off sticker new and sticker used, that's right in line with the average and is actually better considering your miles. Sell it privately you can get well over $30k for it.

It's an Acura, even if it experiences resale issues which it likely won't, that will only mean it is in line with anything else, not worse.

The head restraints in the S4 may be less painful to you but that does not speak for everyone and as you have said many times, you really won't know until you own the vehicle for a significant amount of time.

It is no where near overpiced when you consider the alternatives. The A4 2.0T loaded as well as the TL is the same price with less discounts and is inferior in more ways than not, the same is true and is also the case for the 328xi.

Again, to gain the same type of capacity and (less) performance combined that you get in the TL SH you will need to go for the 5 or A6 instead which for around the same price (but still more) comes with nothing as far as equipment and far less power and overall performance and that is shameful in comparison if you ask me. Or you can spend another $20k to match the performance to go with the capacity and still not get the reliability, resale and safety standards. So anyone can say anything is overpriced but it depends on where you are looking exactly. The TL may give up a few points here and there (all cars do) but as a whole when you consider everything to a vehicle and more than just one area specifically, most still find it to be a better value than it's competition and for good reason.

To gain the same performance and capacity and specifically with a V6 and AWD combo, the only other alternative for you and me, since we had the same criteria in that aspect, would have been a 5 series. You might not mind giving up the capacity and going for a 3 or A/S4 but for me it is not an option. The TL is a perfect alternative and combination (under those conditions) between a typical entry sedan and a mid level sedan and priced the same as most of it's competitions well equipped base trims.

In certain situations that is true but for handling it's quite the opposite. It's a matter of how severe the conditions are that you have to deal with and what your preferences for having AWD are.

If you found the TL to be a worse value where it is most important to you than you probably didn't make the best choice for yourself. It's not about Acura vs Audi or the TL vs the S4, it's about what each brings to the tabel and which is best suited for you, or anyone else for that matter. Even at the end of all that you can say it is still nearly perfect, that speaks for a lot. I still hope you get the Audi, it clearly appears to be more inline with what you are looking for.

And don't be cheap with it, do yourself a favor and load the sucker up and make sure you get the active differential. Just my opinion when it comes to these "a la carte" built and priced vehicles do what you like but if you are going to do it, do it right or don't do it at all. You only live once, get the full experience of what you like to complain about being missing in the TL. Good luck in your search.

TechnoCat

RE: AWD
Yeah, you're right, the dry-handling of the SH-AWD system beats anything I've seen. The S4 seems close, but it certainly isn't any better, and past Audis weren't anywhere near close to the SH-AWD in extreme handling in dry conditions.

PenguinTL

I understand where you're coming from. Do not agree with all of your gripes, but you've got to be happy with what you drive! It doesn't matter what any of us think.

I wish you the best in making a change!

chaiwala

Not to sound insensitive but this woman who played with the sun roof couldn't "process" the information correctly that she opened the sun roof? Obviously with my medical background and profession I know that people who have ocular blindness have other senses that are heightened and would be able to know if a sunroof is open due to this. That above statement and my medical background was enough to let me know that you may not be lying completely but you are lying about certain aspects of your story in order to troll here.

FallenTSX

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YidkaqlW9ns

**I'm sure everyone has seen this. It's the SH-AWD Winter Test (alongside Audi's Quattro)**

I think, Acura has Audi beat on this, so it isn't only great at dry handling, but also 'not so dry'

-DeL

VTEC Racer

You'd also think that if she was able to see the buttons for the moon-roof to "play" with, that she could also have just looked up to see if it was open.

I find it hard to believe that an S4 with the moon-roof open is quieter than a TL with the moon-roof closed, which is what the OP is implying.

TechnoCat

Good grief, are you guys that immature and under-educated? I posted pics of the car when one rabid defensive fan-boy accused me of not having one because of that. You apparently have almost no medical knowledge at all. (I, on the other hand, have been an EMT and have been in medical equipment design for years.)

Please tell us - what school did you get your medical degree from?

What you apparently did not learn in your "intro to medicine" course in 3rd grade:

• "Legally blind" is caused by many things
• Going blind does not heighten one's senses. They may learn to rely on other senses more.
• "legally blind" means vision impaired. It is not always caused by ocular nerve problems. (e.g. it could be cataracts, retina, brain damage to that chunk of the brain, ...) In the interest of her privacy, which you have no respect for, I won't go into her cause... but I could photo the placard.
• Another thing TL fanboys don't get - the S4 moonroof is SO much quieter that it is a small difference. Yeah, if you're used to the TL, you think all moonroofs howl when another window is open. Ain't so.

You guys are like leftist-bigots, calling anyone they disagree with a racist. Didn't believe I have the car, even though I posted (happily) about it last November and have been on the board the whole time. Don't believe about my babe, even though I've mentioned her before. Grow up and take the medicine. I made a bad choice in car - I should have realized that Acura is not in the Audi/BMW class despite their ads - but I've learned. You made a bad choice - you defend your purchase by making wild and immature accusations against me when I don't agree. Can you learn?

TechnoCat

The seating (in both cars) has smaller people forward enough that you see the front 1/3 of the moonroof; it doesn't look different open or closed.

No, I was talking about both open. I've never griped about the TL noise closed. Of course, I haven't griped about it's suspension or "jerkiness" (her words) either; she has entirely different gripes with it than I do.

docboy

I don't think Technocat is a "troll." He's just very open about his opinions

I was probably one of the very first on AZ to purchase the 2010 TL 6MT when it was first released 2009. From the pics you posted, we likely purchased the TLs from the same dealership. Definitely not a troll pic...

I'm not too surprised Audi has initially only offered you $29k for your $42,345 Acura. I took a huge bath when I traded in my 09 Lexus IS 250 AWD 4,000 miles later; Audi only offered me $27k for the $41k+ POS vehicle when I was looking at the A/S4. Some trade in value eh? Plus, Audi wasn't really discounting the price of the A/S4 (and neither was Acura since the TL 6MT was so new).

Audi (along with the rest of dealerships) all said something about a calling the buying dealership for a buy-back bid because the car was so now. I believe that as is with ANY car, trading in a car within a year of ownership, especially IMHO if the car's model year and calender year are the same, is going to be a monstrous loss.

I hated my IS, so I went back with what worked for me, Acura (I had a problem free 05 TSX prior to the IS). Technocat will very likely go back to what works for me, Audi. There is only so much one can tell from a test drives; kind of like a mattress, house, or even a significant other/spouse/gf/wife, one can only realize what one can tolerate and what one can't after spending lengthy amounts of time.

Even still today (I don't regret buying the TL) but I do regret buying the IS and having to fork over extra thousands for such an early trade in. Life is so short, so goes with what makes you happy. Just make sure you're okay with the extra $$ spent

TechnoCat

Thanks! Fully agree with your post. And it made me re-look at the pics I posted. To others...

• I didn't move the seats for the interior shot. Look at how far forward the passenger seat is. My significant other is only a smidge over 5-feet, and barely 100 pounds. The seats don't quite work for her, but also you'd have to look through the head restraint to see if the moonroof is angled-open.
• They aren't troll-pics; they're ALIEN pics! I forgot about the alien poking out of our bushes (upper right of the frontal shot.)

DocBoy, I'm sympathetic you went through the same thing, though glad it's not just me. Glad your TL is perfect for you!

compewterbleu

LMAO! To each his own, my experience in a down pour at night on I-20 west to Atlanta was different, so was a few close calls like the one I had lad night, this nut in an Escalade merged into traffic with no lights on doing 60mph and I had to floor and cut a wicked turn to avoid being totaled.

PsychDoc

Reading thru this thread I can't believe how myopic people can be about their cars. And defensive. Calm down guys, it's just a friggin' car. And here's a newsflash, -- there are better cars in the world. Even within the segment there may be cars that are better in some respects but not in others. While I'm generally very happy with my TL I have no doubt that the suspension leaves much to be desired. I know this because other cars with superior reputations for handling and suspension ride FAR more comfortably. Talk all you want about "road feel," "compliance," etc....at the end of the day, it's all BS. The car is fine on the open road, but in a city environment the car is way too stiff. If it makes you feel better to say otherwise, have at it, but you're just kidding yourselves. With respect to the car's positive qualities -- it's solid as a tank, no squeaks/rattles, it gets decent gas mileage, it's technology is very good and it provides great bang for the buck. Some 'not-so-positives' (beyond the awful ride) the nav system in the Lexus line is far superior, however as is the implementation of the weather feature. The weather feature in our cars is a joke and is completely useless. The traffic feature is pretty good but again here, Lexus has a better implementation of this as well. All in all a very nice car, but far from perfect.

docboy

Lots of similarities here Technocat. My wife is 5'1" , 110lbs at most. FWIW, my wife complains of my TL's 1) head restraints, 2) bucket seats, and 3) the jerkiness when I shift. She's never been fond of the sporty "bucket seats" in the TL or my 1G TSX. She likes her cushy and floaty RX330.

Unfortunately, 2 cars later, I'm still not sure if the TL is the perfect physical fit for me (I love the TL's 6spd transmission, its power, and high tech interior). I traded in the IS because after the purchase, I started noticing the dam AWD bump into the footwell; eventually I couldn't drive the car without my right leg/knee/hip hurting (I'm sure you read of this in my older posts).

Now that I have the TL, my right leg does not hurt, but gets a little numb and sore when I drive and after I drive. I recently adjusted the seats so I'm getting the most thigh support possible (ie. tilting the driver's seat upwards as far as it will go). It's helped quite a bit, but the numbness is still there. If you have any advice, I would appreciate it. FWIW I don't experience this numb feeling in my wife's RX330 and in the loaner MDX I've driven. And no, as someone on AZ suggested, I'm not out of shape. Sorry for the hi-jack, I might have to start a new thread on this...

Back on topic, does the S4 have a thigh extender? Also, does the S4 have a protruding bump into the passenger's footwell space? I recall the B8 A4 did. Just curious.

smarty666

The Lexus nav system is better than the Acura? Are you kidding me? Acura's is far superior in the nav department with, better voice recognition, can do more from the steering wheel, better graphics and color, doesn't lock you out of ALL functions while driving (this is a big one), better database information, and the list can go on and on, oh, and you don't have to use a ridiculous mouse control in the Acura's like you do in the Lexus vehicles, which you know they will put throughout their line-up. Mouse control interface is intuitive/not distracting my ass!

Anyway, I guess its a matter of taste and what you consider comfort, I can't believe you think the base TL ride quality is rough/harsh. I found it very comfortable, even on very catered/crappy roads. I thought it let in just the right amount of feedback without being harsh. Now if your talking about the SH-AWD, that is a different story. I found that suspension to be a little bit too harsh/rough for my taste.

miketala

one of our cars is a 2008 honda fit. it too has closed painted sheet metal. i don't know what this really means.

sammietime

The S4 is badass. --I had one for long T/D and it was delightful. --Too bad you didn't get it in the 1st place especially with the comfort problems you're experiencing with the TL. And, what's your secret to being so skinny? This wide body wants to know..

TechnoCat

Yeah, well, I believed the Acura ads.

Secret to skinny? It's 5am here and I've already done weights, aerobics, pull-ups and bar-dips. As a form of stress-control, not weight-control, but the side-effect is pleasant.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Doesn't mean a thing other than 1) Acura uses foam in fenders, A pillars, etc. to dampen road noise; 2) Acura chooses not to encase said foam in more steel adding more weight to the car (compare S4 weight vs TL-AWD); and 3) the crafty Audi salesmen found something to pimp Technocat about in hopes of making him feel bad (worse, actually) about his TL and eager (more eager, actually) to trade it for a brand new Audi.

TechnoCat

The S4 weighs 310 pounds LESS than the TL SH-AWD.
I noticed and mentioned the foam months ago; the Audi-drones didn't even know about it. My guess is it's another cheapening (cost-saving) omission that sacrifices the "luxury" perception... but in this case something that even most $20K cars don't expose!

docboy

At 5am? More power to ya

I tried working out at 5am a few times. Literally made me nauseous the rest of the day. What time do you sleep?

TechnoCat

During meetings in the office.

Actually, typically from 9p to 4:15a. Because my darling SO can't drive (vision problems), there are some schedule accomodations needed.

JM2010 SH-AWD

I haven't put them on the scale but Automobile did:

TL-AWD =3,860 pounds
S4=3,940 pounds

Maybe the Audi folks have different numbers?