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After reading all of this info I can now make sense of a lot of the handling issues I felt with my 07 accord and 04 tsx last year. Wobbling, near accidents in the rain while going over 30mph, etc... granted, taking into consideration what Marcus has said, both vehicles had high milage and all I changed in the rear ends were the jpower kits and the coils of choice were different over time. So now I pose a simple but obviously serious question to all of you who have e, pwriwnce with all these other kits. I now daily a 04 tl, about 110k on it, im the second owner, its mechanically and physically mint. PO was an elderly man. Now its winter so I left it stock so far but in my garage I have function and form type 1's, a tl-s rsb with new links, and the jpower kit (just because its what ive had before, and I was running stupid camber so I never blamed the jpower arms as I should have). I also have a square set of 18x9 +30 wheels, I plan on putting 215/40/18's on those wheels, they should clear without issues with close to 0 camber from what ive seen on other tl's.
NOW, I obviously will not be using the jpower kit, and I do not plan on lowering the tl excessively, mainly because I love driving again. Not worried about every tiny pothole in sight, and I mainly want to kill most of the wheelgap. No need to tuck any rubber, thats why I chose +30 wheels, to bring the tire out a bit to help hide more wheel gap without having to drop the suspension lower. So now my question is this, from what I see most of you say, id stay with the OEM camber and toe arms, and get the spc camber kit? I daily my car at most 15-20 miles, but i want a near perfect alignment and I want good performance. And a lasting alignment if I didnt make that clear lol. I do not track my car, I do not beat on it, but we all have those spurts of spirited driving when we see turns coming up. Im sure you understand. Any advice from anyone is greatly accepted.
Ok, Finally installed the Hardrace arms...some pics below. Saying they are night and day from the Ingalls, & OEM arms for that matter, is such an understatement. Did not have time for alignment so that's totally wacked out but, had to take for quick spin anyway. I can't even describe how tight the rear end feels. I mean zero dip/mush..Zero. Steering response is such that I'm going to need some miles just to get used to it. So, first impression is exactly what I thought it would be. The spherical bushings/bearings make all the difference and the 150% harder than OEM rubber bushings seems to tighten/stiffen things up nicely. Paired with the progress rear sway bar and a-spec, suspension is a total winner. Let you know how it really feels after alignment is in spec and I "play" a little.
After reading all of this info I can now make sense of a lot of the handling issues I felt with my 07 accord and 04 tsx last year. Wobbling, near accidents in the rain while going over 30mph, etc... granted, taking into consideration what Marcus has said, both vehicles had high milage and all I changed in the rear ends were the jpower kits and the coils of choice were different over time. So now I pose a simple but obviously serious question to all of you who have e, pwriwnce with all these other kits. I now daily a 04 tl, about 110k on it, im the second owner, its mechanically and physically mint. PO was an elderly man. Now its winter so I left it stock so far but in my garage I have function and form type 1's, a tl-s rsb with new links, and the jpower kit (just because its what ive had before, and I was running stupid camber so I never blamed the jpower arms as I should have). I also have a square set of 18x9 +30 wheels, I plan on putting 215/40/18's on those wheels, they should clear without issues with close to 0 camber from what ive seen on other tl's.
NOW, I obviously will not be using the jpower kit, and I do not plan on lowering the tl excessively, mainly because I love driving again. Not worried about every tiny pothole in sight, and I mainly want to kill most of the wheelgap. No need to tuck any rubber, thats why I chose +30 wheels, to bring the tire out a bit to help hide more wheel gap without having to drop the suspension lower. So now my question is this, from what I see most of you say, id stay with the OEM camber and toe arms, and get the spc camber kit? I daily my car at most 15-20 miles, but i want a near perfect alignment and I want good performance. And a lasting alignment if I didnt make that clear lol. I do not track my car, I do not beat on it, but we all have those spurts of spirited driving when we see turns coming up. Im sure you understand. Any advice from anyone is greatly accepted.
I've been following this thread with interest over the last few weeks, and it seems like the most accepted methods of correcting alignment would be to retain your OEM toe arm, and either go with Ingalls camber arm or SPC. The Hardrace arms pictured above look phenomenal, but also pricey. It looks like we share the same mindset as far as what we are trying to achieve with our cars, and in my case I am finally able to track down the insecurity and wobbling in the rear to the Ingalls kit.
I purchased my set on March 11, 2013, so I must have a set with the old bushings. I installed this kit along with a set of preowned Tein Street Advance coilovers with 11k miles on them, new Progress RSB with Moog endlinks, and preowned Akata wheel spacers (which have passed numerous inspections by various Discount Tire locations and dealerships upon tire rotations after install). I always wondered if this was the norm with the combination of mods - one friend attributed the wobbles to the wheel spacers, another said that the wobbles were normal with aftermarket camber and toe arms - but my experiences also fall in line with others in this thread.
I have not filed a formal complaint, but add me to the list in this thread. I do love the customer service and prompt responses by both HeelToe and Excelerate, since I have purchased things through both vendors, so I would want to try and alleviate my concerns through them and Ingalls before being completely disappointed. I wonder if I can receive the updated version and send my old ones in to be inspected, since I had to cut my old OEM arms off due to the bolts being seized and can't afford to have my car down. I will have to contact Josh at Excelerate however, since I purchased my Ingalls kit from him and I see that Excelerate hasn't really made a big presence in this thread (props to Marcus and HeelToe for maintaining a dialogue here with us!).
Or I can always go with those sweet-looking Hardrace arms!
@marcus if your attempts to contact hardrace become a success, maybe a group buy deal? It would be pricey but considering how noticeable the improvements are, I can guess theres lots of potential buyers already interested.
I don't have to go further into what transpired here. More and more people are chiming in to sound off that they have issues with Ingalls arms.
My OEM lower rear arms + SPC upper arm is already night and day from Ingalls lower arms + oem upper arm. I can't imagine how stiff the hard race setup is!
I would be more than happy to send in my Ingalls arms as well, I'll give them to HeelToeAuto for free for testing.
So now my question is this, from what I see most of you say, id stay with the OEM camber and toe arms, and get the spc camber kit?
That's what they are saying...yes.
Originally Posted by paperboy42190
I understand that you arent happy with the ingalls kit, but why are you posting private emails/convos on a public forum?
Unfortunately, I'm a business owner...I assume most of what I say is going to be repeated somewhere.
Originally Posted by cfv22
one more...
So, this raises a question for me. I've been using a stock rear sway bar. Are you guys all using upgraded sway bars? That could be causing some differences in our experiences.
@marcus, I was asking if how I drive my car at times makes any difference and I would need more aftermarket parts to support my driving style at times. I am also going to be running a bigger sway bar and I might downgrade to a 35 profile tire so I can get a wider size without fitment issues maybe 245 and I know all that adds to the stress on the arms. Cause I know thats what a few people are saying, im asking for your opinion on what setup would best suit my needs, since im sure youve tested probably more set ups than others.
When do u think ull be free to sell the other set? I may still do this, OEM replacements are 300 anyway, so 450 isn't that much more of a stretch.
Not sure. Like I said, weather here is awful and still need alignment. Want to really drive on them for a while. Want to be able to give a true review before I do/sell anything. Will keep you posted.
Oh... here is a shot of my getting pretty rusted 3
yr old Ingalls arms along with the Hardrace and OEM arms below. Originals were on car about 5 years, and still look pretty good to me.
the hardrace ones are spherical bushings on all 4? I'm a bit curious why OEM has only 1 spherical bushing?
The Hardrace come as all spherical or all hardened rubber(150% harder than OEM, so they say). They are performance/race arms designed to be better than OEM. I mixed and matched the 2 hardrace sets to get close to OEM. Rubber bushings on inner arms and spherical bearing on outer arms.. I think all spherical would really only work for track car not street like mine is used for. See pics below. You can see how they come and how I configured them. First pic is the all rubber, second is the all spherical and third is the way I have them set up.
[QUOTE=cfv22;15320879]Oh... here is a shot of my getting pretty rusted 3
yr old Ingalls arms along with the Hardrace and OEM arms below. Originals were on car about 5 years, and still look pretty good to me.
THOSE LOOK JUST LIKE MINE!! The funny thing is that you can see the OEM trailing arm nearby and there is NO rust on it.
Oh... here is a shot of my getting pretty rusted 3
yr old Ingalls arms along with the Hardrace and OEM arms below. Originals were on car about 5 years, and still look pretty good to me.
THOSE LOOK JUST LIKE MINE!! The funny thing is that you can see the OEM trailing arm nearby and there is NO rust on it.
Crazy right! I have a good shot at home as well of the bushings. You can see the indent in the soft rubber where the spherical bearing should have been. Off tomorrow, get alignment, then really see how new stuff responds.
I was looking at my car and just thought of another possible inherent issue from adjusting the bottom arms as opposed to adjusting the top arm.
If you "pulled" bottom of the knuckle to correct camber, you'll decrease rear track width more than you would if you "pushed" the top of the knuckle. That affects car handling. It may be just couple mm (1mm ~~ 1/25nd of an inch) but you can easily feel the changes in front/rear track width. Several years ago, bored friends of mine tried with various aftermarket rims with various offsets on a same car.
Yes there are cars that uses bottom arm to adjust for camber OEM, but those suspensions are designed to be adjusted that way, and it's not that much. So thinking of TL, I think it's best to minimize other changes while trying to correct camber.
Some are saying that when making camber adjustment with the upper SPC arm , the toe does not move. According to the speed shop that did my install, this is not true. The toe still moves a little bit when adjusting the upper arm, but the toe does not move AS MUCH as when doing adjustments using the 2 lower arms.
My 2 cents. Our cars require 4 wheel alignment. Doesn't matter if rear camber is adjusted from top or bottom. Acura was kind enough to include neither;( All specs, including total toe, thrust angle, etc need to be dialed in correctly. Furthermore, I don't look at lower adjustable arms as one only for camber and one only for toe. They work in conjunction with each other to more precisely and easily dial settings in the way you want. This site was very informative for me when playing with my settings... TurnFast! Race Driving Techniques for Heel Toe Downshift, Driving Line, Cornering, Braking, and More ? Handling Tuning Table
Ok, here are my thoughts. Ridiculously tight planted rear end. Combined with the Progress bar, Hardrace arms and aspec I don't think you can get your car to handle/track better. On/off ramps are a pleasure and steering response is virtually instant. Not sure if I attribute it to the extra spherical bushing on the outside camber arm or the harder than OEM rubber, probably a combination of all. I'm posting my alignment below and will have it checked again and post new reading in a month or 2. With the Ingalls arms, rear went out of spec pretty quickly, especially toe. So we'll see. Expensive yes but if you like to really drive/push your car it's so worth it. If you go in w/ another member you can have 2 sets set up like mine for $450 each. Or maybe heeltoe can get them to produce one specifically for our cars cheaper with one spherical bearing on outside toe arm and the rest hardened rubber bushings similar to OEM.
Alignment: The toe specs were set to slight toe out in the front and slight toe in in the rear. Makes a huge difference to turn response and tracking. Posted a link earlier if anyone wants to check it out.
Ingalls is shit. Going on third set of ingalls bushings and over $1,500 in fried tires. When my current installer talked to Marcus originally, he denied any issues with these parts. Marcus originally installed them, he did not follow proper install procedures. Using a torque wrench and tightening bushings at ride height would of helped longevity slightly, but that's not how Marcus operated at the time of the original install. At the end of the day, these suck, no matter how correct you install them or much gibberish is said here.
Ingalls is shit. Going on third set of ingalls bushings and over $1,500 in fried tires. When my current installer talked to Marcus originally, he denied any issues with these parts. Marcus originally installed them, he did not follow proper install procedures. Using a torque wrench and tightening bushings at ride height would of helped longevity slightly, but that's not how Marcus operated at the time of the original install. At the end of the day, these suck, no matter how correct you install them or much gibberish is said here.
I'm done for now, carry on.
here we go!
6000 miles later on SPC arms, car is still straight as an arrow and tires are "wearing back to normal". Tail is following through SOLID while cornering, no side-to-side sway.
XLR8 performance is another one that jumps in here to try to sell Ingalls whenever someone asks about camber kit. I read threads here and there and notice this. Perhaps the profit margin on Ingalls is way higher than SPC. I don't condone this kind of practice trying to sell products that don't live up to its name. A sale is a sale, they make the money then leave. But the consumers suffer.
6000 miles later on SPC arms, car is still straight as an arrow and tires are "wearing back to normal". Tail is following through SOLID while cornering, no side-to-side sway.
XLR8 performance is another one that jumps in here to try to sell Ingalls whenever someone asks about camber kit. I read threads here and there and notice this. Perhaps the profit margin on Ingalls is way higher than SPC. I don't condone this kind of practice trying to sell products that don't live up to its name. A sale is a sale, they make the money then leave. But the consumers suffer.
I found out that the margin is higher today. Although, I'm not sure this is the only reason the Ingalls is pushed, it sure makes it more appealing. I also found out that they are made In china. Is that other style arm made there too? I hear only a few things made over there are worth a second look.
A sale is a sale, they make the money then leave. But the consumers suffer.
Hey, that's pretty offensive. You are really out of line with this comment and I insist that you please take it back with respect to Heeltoe and Excelerate. Both of us have been supporting this forum for nearly a decade each. This is completely uncalled for.
We have ALWAYS been here for our customers. ALWAYS. Anyone who has ever needed support from us has gotten it. All someone needs to do is tell us. I mean, REALLY tell us. Directly in an email or other formal means of obtaining service. All this and we have NEVER received even ONE bad bushing back from a customer.
Flinging sh*t in the hen house only serves to soil the forums' already bad reputation for hearsay and stirring up controversy.
Marcus
949-295-1668
Call me and tell me this garbage in person.
Hey, that's pretty offensive. You are really out of line with this comment and I insist that you please take it back with respect to Heeltoe and Excelerate. Both of us have been supporting this forum for nearly a decade each. This is completely uncalled for.
We have ALWAYS been here for our customers. ALWAYS. Anyone who has ever needed support from us has gotten it. All someone needs to do is tell us. I mean, REALLY tell us. Directly in an email or other formal means of obtaining service. All this and we have NEVER received even ONE bad bushing back from a customer.
Flinging sh*t in the hen house only serves to soil the forums' already bad reputation for hearsay and stirring up controversy.
Marcus
949-295-1668
Call me and tell me this garbage in person.
Easy way out, aye.
Profit margin isn't the issue here, It's the crap being sold to folks. Multiple bushing failures are not acceptable within a few years. Stock bushings last the life of the car in nearly every tl from what I'm told. I'm sure someone here with more experience than me can vouch for this. Comments are likely an emotional extension from being a victim of the ingalls kit. If you dumped $1500 on tires, you'd be pissed off too.
Not to be inflammatory, but you (claimed expert) of all people should know more about these issues. I asked at a few car meets, and almost everyone with a lowered tsx or tl had or dumped the ingalls kit.
I called around looking for stock rods, several places said they have none available, they sell out immediately upon arrival. Any correlation with owning the Ingalls kit?
Please review again those pictures I posted with rusted rods and lifted bushings. I used them for 3 years, I didn't pull this out of thin air. I didn't even post pictures of my strangely worn tires after 5 alignments in 3 years without hitting a single pot hole. I didn't buy from you, I don't have a problem with you, but I have a problem with vendors pushing products that have major issues. Newbies come in here all the time, a vendor jumps in immediately and say "hey you can buy Ingalls kit from us because you are lowering to correct the camber and toe." Should I put out a potential warning or let him waste hundreds of dollars like I did? I went as far as responding to questions honestly on Amazon as well on the same Ingalls kit. I just don't want others to suffer as I did, out of whack toe settings, side-to-side sway, constant alignment issues, worn and loud whirring sound tires. And I'm lowered only 1". I can't imagine what happened to those lowered more than 2".
XLR8 performance is another one that jumps in here to try to sell Ingalls whenever someone asks about camber kit. I read threads here and there and notice this. Perhaps the profit margin on Ingalls is way higher than SPC. I don't condone this kind of practice trying to sell products that don't live up to its name. A sale is a sale, they make the money then leave. But the consumers suffer.
You probably shouldn't make false claims unless you have evidence to back them up. It's easy for someone behind a keyboard to make assertions but the fact is we've been on this forum for over a decade and we've contributed far more to this forum than many. So don't sully our good name on this forum because you're irritated about a part you had a bad experience with.
Out of the thousands of units INGALLS sell I've seen maybe a dozen complaints on this forum. We've had only one customer have an issue.
Personally I don't care whether a person buys INGALLS or SPC units. They both make good products but INGALLS has a kit that adjusts camber and toe.
Originally Posted by 3GTLCHICK
I found out that the margin is higher today. Although, I'm not sure this is the only reason the Ingalls is pushed, it sure makes it more appealing. I also found out that they are made In china. Is that other style arm made there too? I hear only a few things made over there are worth a second look.
That's actually not true. The margin is the same. We make all of $10-$15 per kit so it's not about $.
I'm not sure why people are worried about where they are made considering they're interested in J-power camber kits. Where do you think those are made?
Originally Posted by MrHeeltoe
Hey, that's pretty offensive. You are really out of line with this comment and I insist that you please take it back with respect to Heeltoe and Excelerate. Both of us have been supporting this forum for nearly a decade each. This is completely uncalled for.
We have ALWAYS been here for our customers. ALWAYS. Anyone who has ever needed support from us has gotten it. All someone needs to do is tell us. I mean, REALLY tell us. Directly in an email or other formal means of obtaining service. All this and we have NEVER received even ONE bad bushing back from a customer.
Flinging sh*t in the hen house only serves to soil the forums' already bad reputation for hearsay and stirring up controversy.
Marcus
949-295-1668
Call me and tell me this garbage in person.
If someone has an issue why don't they call INGALLS? Why do the handful of people having a negative experience outweigh the positive experiences of the thousands of others who didn't?
I have pics of the failures somewhere, otherwise, I'd of never posted. Ingalls was called after the first failure years ago and would not acknowledge the issue. They said they sell lots and never see an issue. My installer, spoke to them as well, they were no help. They only offered to sell new parts to alleviate the issue. I found out they are in CO, could they be too stoned to realize these issues? Lol
People need to call them and get them to wake up. For some reason, folks are just walking away and not saying anything. A call to the nhtsa and the opening of a case, along with the pictures would sure put a fire under someone's ass, if not a recall or even a payout for loss. The car becomes very twitchy towards the end of the short lived bushings. My car ends up tracking all over the place. It's a safety issue as much as it's a tire wear issue.
It is funny how people asked me if I've contacted Ingalls. I did a month ago and I just received a call from Todd at Ingalls TODAY. Below is what transpired:
Todd: "This is Todd from Ingalls. Would you like to send in the arms for testing? I would send you a UPS label to ship them back to us for testing. I've gotten complaints and yelled at, but you'd be the first one who is willing to send the arms back in to us."
Me: "I would be more than happy to send the arms in!"
Todd: "Have you been on the track? Because once your car is on the track and the bushings get subjected to high load, then it's a totally different story."
Me: "I have never been on a track. I occasionally drive my car hard but it is driven normally 95% of the time"
Todd: "Ok, that's exactly the sample I need. We sell 2500 of these kits a year and the failure rate is less than 5%" We may need to re-design the arms after the tests are performed on these bushings.
Me: (in my mind) "ok sure, so I got nailed with some crappy bushings handed over through the backdoor in China somewhere."
-------------------------------
So my set of arms will go directly to Ingalls for stress testing next week! This is the start of improvement, through my personal agony! EVERYONE with Ingalls issues, ALL call Ingalls and send in your arms for testing to get to the bottom of this.
I call bs, that's not the first set of bushings they've seen fail whether in person or in pics. I know that for a fact. It's obvious the design and materials are an issue. But hey, just buy more bushings from them, they'll gladly sell them to you and let the money Bank drain, along with the tire replacements.
This is a safety issue for sure. I'm out of many hundreds of dollars. Might be smart to open a case over at the nhtsa for a recall. Maybe ask for a refund from Ingalls for all the wasted alignments and tires.
He said, it is the "first time someone will send the arms back." But I doubt that's the case. If I'm the first one ever to send a set of used arms back, then why did they already update the bushings to harder ones!? I also call bs.
01-31-2015, 11:26 PM
The funny thing is that you can see the OEM trailing arm nearby and there is NO rust on it.
