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No, it's the constant freezing of water contained within the vinyl coupled with the vaporization of the ice when the sun hits it from the east at just the right angle.
Water encapsulation between a scrim and vinyl layer will lead to blistering during the gelation and fusion phases of plastisol cure upon time of manufacture. You will have some inherent encapsulation, no matter how balanced the construction may be, and would readily present itself in a far more acute manner than what is occurring here.
If you look at a cracked dash you can see the natural "fracking" down in the vinyl and even down in the age rings that indicate the age of the dash. You can tell if it had a particularly bad winter according to which age ring has the worst fracking.
I'd have to see an image to corroborate this visual. I'm curious if this is being confused with propagation of crazing throughout the body of the unit.
(For those not familiar with crazing, it's when there's a mechanical distortion in the crystalline structue of the lattice that refracts light to provide a certain wavelength and whiten)
Back to reality, I think it's several things and without most if them it won't crack.
I wholly agree with this comment, I'll detail that further at the bottom.
The material drying out, losing it's elasticity as you said.
Plastisols typically contain general use plasticizers such as diisononyl phthalate, dioctly terp-phthalate, diisononyl adipate, or the like...aka "that new car smell". The "dry out" occurs when the plasticizer volatilizes over time, thereby reducing the mechanical properties of the construction.
When you mention dimensional stability would you consider my experience with the dash skin under severe tension from being only partially in the sun, unevenly heated in that category?
I have to wonder if some of the dimensional instability comes from the overall attachment to the cars chassis and chassis flex. Is it the vinyls attachment to the rest of the dash? I truly think it's the uneven heating or cooling of the dash coupled with a brittle material especially when not maintained correctly, and the inability to allow proper expansion and contraction independent of the cars chassis or the frame of the dash itself.
This would easily explain why some can survive in really hot areas and some crack in milder climates.
This is where my train of thought ends up as well.
There are MULTIPLE avenues that would make for an absolutely nightmarish review in any PPAP. The factors at hand are plasticizer content, heating/cooling flux, and time. This would require a full Design of Experiments to determine the interactions between the three treatments to determine which combination of treatments yielded the highest number of failures where we're simply declaring a failure as any single well defined non-linear region of the dash on an attribute (OK/NOK) basis.
It is absolutely not one, but a combination of the three.
This is why I use a leather conditioner bi-weekly on my dash. At the least, theoretically and for the time being, gives the energy of the system a boundary layer that must evaporate before the plasticizer gets all dicksih and evaporates.
Water encapsulation between a scrim and vinyl layer will lead to blistering during the gelation and fusion phases of plastisol cure upon time of manufacture. You will have some inherent encapsulation, no matter how balanced the construction may be, and would readily present itself in a far more acute manner than what is occurring here.
I'd have to see an image to corroborate this visual. I'm curious if this is being confused with propagation of crazing throughout the body of the unit.
If case you didn't notice it was an attempt to make fun of my stupidity.
Back to the cracks
It appears that Acura used two different materials one over passenger side and another material on the driver's side yet both end up cracking. Could it be that it is the soft part of the dash under the surface is the cause of the problem?
Acura's Corporate Office Fixed my Cracked Dashboard
I have a2004 Acura TL and started noticing the cracking a while back. I usually took my car to Nalley Acura in Marietta, GA (best service center on the planet!), but moved up to NYC for law school. I inquired about how much it would be to replace the dashboard and they told me some ridiculous amount, so I called the Acura Corporate Office and threatened them a little bit and they contacted Manhattan Acura (now closed) and instructed them to fix my dashboard for $500.00. Just take pictures of your seats before the dash gets replaced, Manhattan Acura ripped up my seats. I haven't had an issue with the dashboard since. Best of Luck to you all.
Just spent a few minutes googling different manufactures for cracked dash problem and it appears that most of the automakers suffer from it.
That's what I've been thinking. My friends $200,000 CL65 has a crack on the drivers side. My friends Camry has a few cracks. My parents beater Bomneville is cracked on the dash and doors. My fathers '71 Opel GT is cracked horribly and even has a strap that the factory used in an attempt to control cracking. My GNs dash is in 3 pieces but the way it's cracked you can only see it if you look through the windshield.
Out of every car I've been in recently, the only ones that aren't cracked are my fathers GN and my TL. I think the TL looks especially bad because it's so noticeable.
Just had a noticeable crack show up basically at the center of the steering wheel at the 'bump' close to the window. Almost at 139k, and I haven't been keeping up with 303 aerospace applications for the last 2 years.
I've heard some say Acura helped them out others say Acura screwed them.
My TL is literally at the shop right now getting the dash fixed. Acura covered 80% i covered the rest. They even filled up the gas tank and gave me a shiny car wash LOL. But for real that whole defect is a mess. If you're down to pay $300 like me you should be able to fight w/ your dealership about having Acura/Honda cover a large portion of the expense and repairs. good luck.
I bought my 04 TL a few months ago and it came with a cracked dashboard BUT that's because this TL was originally from Arizona so the heat was the cause of it. I could have opted to keep looking for other TLs but this one had a good deal on it so I went through with it.
It had 2 missing door handle caps so I just bought those online and replaced those myself and since the 4G front seats are known to rip, the Acura dealership even replaced my 2 front seats with new cushions before I bought the car so that was cool.
The cracked dashboard bugged me for a bit but I got over it, maybe one day I'll have it replaced and I know that the new dashboard won't crack up here in Minnesota since I park in a garage at work and on a hot sunny day I'd have the sunshade up.
I just don't see how vehicles pre-1990 like my 88' Integra that has been parked outside for over 20 years doesn't have a single crack on the dashboard, but a 'sport-luxury' car has one that is nearly 20 years newer. :/
I just don't see how vehicles pre-1990 like my 88' Integra that has been parked outside for over 20 years doesn't have a single crack on the dashboard, but a 'sport-luxury' car has one that is nearly 20 years newer. :/
I agree, I had a 1998 Honda Civic for 8 years and the dashboard had no cracks in it at all and you would think that they'd use the same material for the dashboard since it works perfectly for the Hondas.
Heat is not the cause - it's a treatment to a system. The cause lies in the formula used to skin the dash.
Originally Posted by TheChamp531
I just don't see how vehicles pre-1990 like my 88' Integra that has been parked outside for over 20 years doesn't have a single crack on the dashboard, but a 'sport-luxury' car has one that is nearly 20 years newer. :/
Originally Posted by Atlas_Gen
I agree, I had a 1998 Honda Civic for 8 years and the dashboard had no cracks in it at all and you would think that they'd use the same material for the dashboard since it works perfectly for the Hondas.
Back to my original point regarding the composition of the dashboard - it all lies in the formula. Latter day plasticizers are almost primarily made of phthalate-free (or at a minimum free of ortho-phthalates) which simply do not perform as well as their phthalate-bearing counterparts that were all the rage in the 20th century before they were widely recognized as Endocrine Disruptors.
Oh moving forward I tinted my windows and will use sun visors!!
Originally Posted by DeathMetal
Heat is not the cause - it's a treatment to a system. The cause lies in the formula used to skin the dash.
^^^Hmmm, so then what can we do to minimize or prevent dash cracking? I just bought a 06 TL and it was lucky since the owner had a garage but I do not and so it will be sitting in the sun for quite a while (in the midwest, so summer can get brutal).
I would hate for the dash and things to start cracking. I'm planning to own this car for at least 10 years.
Someone mentioned a 303 Aerospace protectant spray? And obviously tint/sunshade would help? Is there any way to keep off these cracks or are we essentially screwed?
Heat is not the cause - it's a treatment to a system. The cause lies in the formula used to skin the dash.
Back to my original point regarding the composition of the dashboard - it all lies in the formula. Latter day plasticizers are almost primarily made of phthalate-free (or at a minimum free of ortho-phthalates) which simply do not perform as well as their phthalate-bearing counterparts that were all the rage in the 20th century before they were widely recognized as Endocrine Disruptors.
I'm not entirely sure about that. I don't know the scientific facts for the reason, but I do know my observations.
I had a dash cover for xx amount of time. No new cracks.
I take it off... new cracks show. Only variable that changed was the direct exposure of heat/sun.
^^^Hmmm, so then what can we do to minimize or prevent dash cracking? I just bought a 06 TL and it was lucky since the owner had a garage but I do not and so it will be sitting in the sun for quite a while (in the midwest, so summer can get brutal).
I would hate for the dash and things to start cracking. I'm planning to own this car for at least 10 years.
Someone mentioned a 303 Aerospace protectant spray? And obviously tint/sunshade would help? Is there any way to keep off these cracks or are we essentially screwed?
I honestly don't know, but I'm coming up on 11 years with no cracks so far. It spent the first 2 years in the Louisiana heat and the next 9 years in the harsh North Dakota winters.
I have always used a sun shade and I do have Huper Optic tint which has amazing heat reduction. I have applied 303 only 3-4 times previously and haven't done it in the last 5 years or so. My car has always been garaged when at home (heated garage in ND), but it spent many hours during the work day in both the heat and bitter cold.
I wonder if UV light plays a bigger role than heat and/or cold? But if that's the case, you'd expect the folks who were religious with 303 to be crack free...
^^^Hmmm, so then what can we do to minimize or prevent dash cracking?
Any application that lends to UV repellance and temperature gradients is our best bet...but this is real life, and cars aren't always garaged.
Originally Posted by TheChamp531
I'm not entirely sure about that. I don't know the scientific facts for the reason, but I do know my observations.
Ok, good, let's run with that perspective...your contention is correct, but the perspective is a bit off.
Only variable that changed was the direct exposure of heat/sun
Which would be expected. You're changing the response variable by altering the treatment (energy applied to the system), ergo, the aforementioned remains unchanged.
Originally Posted by nfnsquared
I wonder if UV light plays a bigger role than heat and/or cold?
It does, I have to sit on that a moment.
Originally Posted by nfnsquared
But if that's the case, you'd expect the folks who were religious with 303 to be crack free...
That's the silver bullet here, and lends itself to the previous point that this simply wasn't properly engineered. There's a massive design flaw that's claiming victims in larger numbers over time.
The black box is the dimensional stability of the system (mechanical attachment, substrate, topcoat). Without proper study, it cannot be conclusively determined the extent to which one factor is influencing vinyl fracture at the topcoat.
All that can be done is minimizing energy flux in to the system.
Last edited by DeathMetal; 09-28-2014 at 02:52 AM.
I wonder if UV light plays a bigger role than heat and/or cold? But if that's the case, you'd expect the folks who were religious with 303 to be crack free...
My initial, and possibly incorrect guess is "no". UV absorption is a function of the concentration of an absorbent species...so if this concentration remains constant, heat/cold "should" not have an effect on absorption rate.
I don't know if it helps or not but what I have done to try to not have my second dash crack was four easy things..
1. Tint it as dark as the law allows me
2. Only clean it with a damp microfiber towel, no chemicals
3. Installed OEM vent visors so I can always park the car with the windows a bit cracked open allowing the temp inside the car not to get extremely hot
4. Always have a windshield shade on when parked
When I had the car in PR when you got into it after it sitting all day in the sun and cracked open the windows or turned on the AC you could sometimes hear the dash making noises like if it was expanding and contracting..
Since I have been doing the above I get in the car and the temperature is not as hot inside and you cannot hear the noise..
It might work, might not but it does make me feel like at least I'm doing my part to not let it happen again..
I have a cracked dashboard and I am on my second transmission. What do I win?
Honestly though it's a car and stuff happens. I doubt you could file a lawsuit over a cracked dash unless like the one guy said it poses a safety risk by affecting the airbag deployment. Just like a ding or paint scratch I was annoyed when I first saw the dash cracking, but I got over it.
I'm still sticking to uneven heating of the dash based on my observations. The BMW is in the shop getting a scratch fixed so my fiancee has been driving my TL to work. Instead of being parked under covered parking it's in direct sunlight and even with the sun shade, by the time she gets to my work to pick me up (2-3 minutes later) there's a dimple on the passenger side again. Not as bad as the time I mentioned previously in this thread but it was noticeable.
I had her park East to West today where heating should hopefully be even. I'll know in a few hours if it makes a difference, after work.
I'm sure there are material changes over time that exaggerate this problem but I think uneven heating is the trigger.
I got an 08 TL this past June, and I have no cracks yet even after the brutal Texas heat over the Summer. I don't know if the car was previously garaged or not. I have noticed the outline of the airbag starting to become visible. Everyone in this thread has had pretty good opinions. I agree with most everything said. My overall opinion after reading this thread is IT IS best to do everything possible to keep the dash at the same temp (not half in the sun and half out) if parked outside. I think Acura went with a cheaper material for the dash to begin with which is THE MAIN problem. And, the most important thing in my opinion is being careful in regards to extreme temp changes too quickly. Many materials can't handle rapid temp changes without being damaged. Take glass for instance. If you take a glass still hot fresh out of the dishwasher and pour ice cold water in it, it will break. And just the same, if you take an ice cold frozen beer mug out of a freezer and pour extremely hot water in it, it will break. This would explain why people in the Northeast have experienced the dash crack issues as well. If it's 20 degrees outside and you turn on the defrost full blast, the dash is going to heat up quickly causing stress. I've seen windshields crack before due to this. And, if it's 100 degrees outside, and you turn on the AC full blast, the dash is going to cool off very quickly. My plan is to use a sunshade on extremely sunny days and keep the sunroof tilted to keep the inside heat down as much as possible. Cool the car down slowly by first opening the door and letting the heat out first before turning the AC on low for a while at first before turning it to high so the dash will cool off slowly. And, slowly heat up the car in Winter when the dash is extremely cold. Other than that, all I can do is use 303 once a week or so and keep my fingers crossed. As far as the transmission, which is obviously a much bigger concern, I did a 3x3 with DW1 and plan on doing at least a 3x1 every time I change my oil about every 6-7 thousand miles. I think one thing we can all agree on is nothing is perfect and all cars have a flaw or two. However, the 3G TL is a beautiful ride! Nothing last forever! Even we die.
2006 NBP in the midwest
~130k miles
Sits in the sun all day (not garage-kept)
I don't use a sun shade
I don't treat the dash or clean it
I have zero cracks
Reading this thread worries me. I guess whatever will happen, will happen.
I wonder if treating or cleaning the dash can make things worse. Maybe I'll just use a damp cloth to wipe it down once in a while.
2006 NBP in the midwest
~130k miles
Sits in the sun all day (not garage-kept)
I don't use a sun shade
I don't treat the dash or clean it
I have zero cracks
Reading this thread worries me. I guess whatever will happen, will happen.
I wonder if treating or cleaning the dash can make things worse. Maybe I'll just use a damp cloth to wipe it down once in a while.
I think your dash will be fine because in the Midwest the sun isn't as harsh as it is down in the West Coast or desert and the weather up here isn't hot 365 days a year either since we get Winter.
I think your dash will be fine because in the Midwest the sun isn't as harsh as it is down in the West Coast or desert and the weather up here isn't hot 365 days a year either since we get Winter.
It's all a matter of time and some bad luck. There is always a good chance they will crack eventually no matter where you live and no matter how much cleaning/treatment is done.
Do your best, keep it clean, keep it covered, and keep it treated. When it is time to crack...it will crack.
My '05 is in the Midwest and in my possession since 2008, finally started cracking out last month. I kept mine mostly clean, mostly treated, and usually covered in a garage.
I know there was an attempt to get a class action lawsuit going on the paint issues on Honda/Acuras from the early to mid 2000s due to clear coat failure issues on the darker colors. It was denied and I'm guessing that now due to the age of the 3rd gen TL's, any class action suits will be denied unless it's a major safety issue. Acura will argue that's what happens when cars get old.
I was under the impression that EVERYONE's dash was cracking, and that it is inevitable in 2004-2005 models. From what I'm told they fixed the issue in later models. Here is my cracked dash 2004 TL. First started cracking at 2010 though. From North Carolina, fairly moderate climate.
I am a reliability engineer, so I know a lot about root cause analysis, design problems, reliability of components, etc. I have not put a lot of thought into coming up with a root cause analysis, but this is what I do know.
From the person that said that ALL dashboards will crack, that's hogwash. Was the person that told you that a design engineer? If not, then it's an opinion based on a couple of cases that they have (might have) see personally. There might be a fair amount of cracked dashboards for 2004-2008 Acura TLs, but there are such a wide ranging amount of things that go into why a dashboard might have cracked, including: where it's parked (and for how long), humidity, amount of maintenance done to maintain dashboard, previous accidents, use of sunshields, etc. The factors are all scattered. Until someone comes up with a root cause analysis for this problem, no one will ever know or pin down what the problem is.
I agree with you...
My thoughts are that one of the following or a combination of things is a contributory factor..
car rigidity but I think personally that this is not really it as the TL is a very rigid car built upon a solid platform.
complexity of said dash. Compared to the previous gen cars, this dash has a pretty complex design and as such it might need some reinforcements to alleviate the problem. The older TL/CL dash has a large surface area but does not crack like that. My CL is 14 years old and still looks awesome despite sitting outside for most of it's life.
material or manufacturing process defect... This is the one I would lean towards...
Mine recently cracked and it's probably because I don't garage my car. I have a 90 crx that has been parked outside for years and no cracks, so it is pretty disappointing to see the 07 tl-s with only 65k all cracked up. SMH
Mine recently cracked and it's probably because I don't garage my car. I have a 90 crx that has been parked outside for years and no cracks, so it is pretty disappointing to see the 07 tl-s with only 65k all cracked up. SMH
I wish they would have put that same material from the older Hondas' dashboard into the 3rd Gen TLs. I owned a 98 Civic for 8 years that had no garage and sat in the sun and had no cracks, now that dashboard material was really good too. I guess it's like how they use cheaper materials these days when bulding anything compared to the past due to the cost of it.
"Angry owners of Accords — as well as Civics, Odysseys and Pilots — have filed a total of about 3,500 complaints with the highway safety administration, the Center for Auto Safety and CarComplaints.com, although there is likely to be some duplication."
"The class-action suit that was settled in 2006 had been filed in the Superior Court of California for Alameda County. It claimed that Honda had misled consumers by selling them vehicles with defective transmissions. Honda denied those assertions but settled the case without admitting a defect."
^Nothing here that we don't already know. Initially I felt that simply filing a complaint is the equivalent of just simply bitching at the wall in passive aggression. I mean, what action will come of it?..... But now I feel that anyone up here might as well do it. It will show some evidence of all the silent cases. Who knows it MAY influence something. Since nobody is really going to go on an all out war with a class action suit it's better than doing nothing:
I will throw two more in the pot. One 2005 in Jax FL, the other 2004 in Charlotte NC. Both did EXACT same thing. Crack at the airbag then within 6 months it looks like a piece of meat at a hibachi grill. I absolutely can vouch that the 05 had a heat shield up during day and used Aerospace 303. I have come to the conclusion as others have that it is the expansion and contraction of the dash under temperature change. When it is hot out some of the cracks disappear entirely. When it is cold they get as big as 2.5-3mm wide. What ever material Acura used significantly expands and contracts compounding the stress risers in certain areas of the dash.
When it is warmer out I had always noticed getting in my car after work a popping sound coming from the dash within a couple of seconds of getting in the car and driving. I was waiting for the day that that sound would happen and a crack would shoot down my dash. I have never witnessed the "birth" of any of my new cracks. I will say though this 100% is a design flaw and not some freak anomaly under specific conditions.
07-30-2014, 08:47 PM
