DuoDSG

Happy Saturday, y'all:

As was discussed in a number of threads, among others (especially these two: Best Fluids: Episode II, Inaccurate's optimal Racing ATF % thread), a lot of explanation has gone into the way to ease into Redline ATF fluids, especially on higher mileage engines.

The lowdown:

• 2004 AT TL
• ~180,000 miles
• Original transmission
• Honda OEM fluid in the tranny at the moment
• Service wanted: 1x3 with Type F ATF, 3rd and 4th gear pressure switch replacement

After calling a few places, most won't do the kind of service I'm looking for (it's a really small market up here in the Idaho Falls area), so I called the one Honda dealer just to see if they knew what I was talking about and were willing to do it.

To my surprise, they had the lowest price, would do all the work at once, and would let me bring in my own parts and fluids (some dealers won't do that, even if your car is out of warranty).

Estimate was ~$150 for all work (the estimate I got was for a flush and fill, NOT a drain and fill or 1x3- he said he would talk to the tech and give me a precise number come Monday), taking about two hours, which doesn't include price of parts and fluids I would bring in myself. Strictly labor.

Four questions:

1. Considering the mileage (and how a flush has not been performed since I got the car at 127,000 miles- it's only been drains and fills with Honda OEM ATF fluid), should I be considering a flush with Honda OEM ATF for this particular service to "clean things out" and then wait for the next oil change to to a 1x3 with Type F? Is there any benefit to me doing that vs just doing a 1x3?

2. If a 1x3 is best, how much is too much price-wise for the 1x3 (considering the replacing of the pressure switches as part of the process)?

3. I remember reading that it's about 9 quarts of ATF that I should purchase for a flush/drain and fill. If I'm doing a total fill, should I get an extra quart (9+1)? If I'm getting a 1x3, should I get 3 quarts or 4?

4. No doubt I'll replace the ATF filter. Is it best to stick with OEM or go with a different brand? If OEM, what part number am I looking for? I saw the part number in a DIY thread listed as "25450-RAY-003" but on none of the parts websites I have seen does that trans fluid filter even come up. I've been digging and I only see oil, air and fuel filters.

I know this sounds so elementary and basic, considering how I've discussed with these techs (and on this forum) quite a bit about this work, but finding quantities is hit and miss on the threads that cover the topic, since they go more into the "theory" behind it and not so much the liquid amounts required for the work.

Thank you for your time in reading and I appreciate your help! Have a great day and happy driving!

1KLRTOY

You might want to read this AT3rdClutch then search the site for Redline ATF and decide for yourself if you want to use 65% racing (typeF) and 35% D4/D6 I happen to use this mix of Redline in my 06 and couldn't be happier. I also changed the switches and the filter, I used an oem filter, I have done 5X3 flushes so far all with the Redline mix.
Here's what you need;
28610-RAY-003 3rd gear switch
28600-RAY-003 4th gear switch
90471-PW7-A00 washer X2
25450-RAY-003 element (filter)
91301-RAY-004 O-ring
25803-RAY-000 spring
91302-RAY-003 filter gasket
I hope this helps..

DuoDSG

Thanks for the quick response, this is great reading for me to do regarding the clutch packs and pressure switches so I'll keep reading and researching so I understand the situation behind it more fully.

My goal so far is to eventually get closer to the mixture you're referring to, and I know that getting the old Honda OEM fluid out and replacing it eventually with Type F is the first step along that long road of 1x3s that lies ahead of me and my 04 TL.

1black_seven

iTrader: (2)

You don't want to flush this transmission. It's not good for this car.
From what I've been told, any certified Honda tech should know that and it's printed in the service manual.
Drain and refill, drain and refill.

Type-F is good stuff. I've stuck to the 33(D4)/66(type-f) ratios and I have minimal flaring.

1black_seven

iTrader: (2)

To elaborate, do 3 drain and refills and put miles in between each drain/refill. Cycle thru all 5 gears. The oil is detergent and will be a cleaning process.

pohljm

yes, no flushing. drain and fill only.

nist7

Awesome thanks for the parts list. I'm hoping to get this done as well with my newly bought 06 TL.

Also, whats the rationale behind a blend of the Type F and D4?

I was reading Inaccurate's huge Red Line Racing ATF thread and it looks like it's for people who want to use Racing ATF but then I guess 100% racing ATF may be too "low" FM so have to mix in D4 with it?

Should everyone do that mix? I'm simply trying to upgrade from the OEM ATF and put something in it so that it's maximizing the 5AT life potential without going into too much hassle...in other words I just want to use the Red Line D4 for the ATF, that won't be too much worse than the racing ATF mix?

1black_seven

iTrader: (2)

If you're not using type-f for performance, why deviate from OEM And spend more money?
I may have misread something but I don't see the benefit over OEM for a casual driver.

Sparky16

Well, I (tried to) replace OEM Z-1 with something better, not for performance, did 3x3 drain & fill with 100% Redline D4, drove about 1500 miles. I just found my ATF level was a bit higher, siphoned out a few oz. The fluid siphoned out seemed to be a little darker than I wished it be (after 1500miles) just by looking.

Is this thickness OK (because it's synthetic) or should I go back to new OEM DW-1 or should I do another 1x3 with Redline Racing ATF to thin out? After this 3x3 drain & fill with a few other work, I'm getting flashing D. /!\. VSA and CEL, setting code P0977(shift solenoid B circuit high).

Any and all help will be greatly appreciated.

Steve

1black_seven

iTrader: (2)

I would stick to OEM, there's no need for racing ATF unless you race. But sounds like to me you need to change your transmission pressure switch(s). Or oil pressure switch as some people call them.

Sparky16

I already have replaced 3rd & 4th pressure switch at the same time I did 3x3 ATF drain and fill...Z-1 was considered the culprit for a lot of premature tranny failure.

DuoDSG

Thanks for all the replies, everyone- this is exactly the reason why I always go here to AZ first before I do anything substantial on my car. It is greatly appreciated (and I'm glad others are getting a benefit from this thread as well!).

Let me add some additional clarification to what I shared in the original post:

1) The service department tech told me--after telling him that I would be bringing in my own ATF to use during the procedure--that they add a "BM [sic] conditioner to whatever fluid they use to prevent damage to the clutch packs" (presumably because, as has been discussed in other Redline product-related threads, some ATFs do not have the kinds of detergents or friction modifiers that the Honda Z1 does...they still swear by it, even though I've read differing opinions on this). What is he talking about, and is absolutely necessary?

2) The tech also mentioned that when they do a drain and fill, they lose so much of the fluid from removing the pan that doing a 1x3 isn't an option the way that I envision it (only replacing 1/3 of the fluid). Again, I'm confused, especially since he clearly has access to the same service manual that I do for my TL, so why did he say that, and how can I word it to him differently (apart from what I've already shared) so he sees what I'm getting at? If he does the drain and fill the way he's described, it will end up being a 3x3 all right there at once, and I do NOT want to replace all my ATF because it will inevitably lead to tranny failure from so much new fluid in the system.

Thanks again for everyone's replies- you are all great. And thanks again for the parts list- I'll definitely be getting a hold of the vendors on this forum since they will give me a good deal AND because they may be able to track down these parts since I'm trouble finding them through the standard parts websites I'm looking at.

Happy Monday!

livitupdan

He is right. You DO NOT want to drain it all and fill with new fluid. It will break much faster. The Acura dealer in Ohio has told me repeatedly that they only do a 1/3 drain and fill. Thus, I had them do this once a month for 3 straight months. Runs great now.

stephen88

I live in fort myers florida and need help with this too. I have an 04 auto and past few weeks my car has been turning on with a whine and driving with it almost sounding like a super charger pulley. I can tell its the tranny cause theres very slight vibration at times when its shifting from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th. I want to do the pressure switch replacement but I'm not hands on with cars at all so I'd have to take it somewhere to have it done. I just joined too so I can't pm anyone yet.

TheTitus

That does not sound right, hopefully he misspoke. It should be a 1x3, draining out ~3 quartz of old fluid and adding the same amount of new fluid back in, doing this once and only once. That process should then be repeated after you put some miles on the car.

Sparky16

Everyone else on forum, including many on 3rd Gen TL are doing 3x3 drain & fill, why this thread be different?

https://acurazine.com/forums/diy-faq...-794451/page3/

https://acurazine.com/forums/problem...change-855387/

And this one below is in 3G garage;
https://acurazine.com/forums/third-g...-556044/page5/

Sparky16

And here's Acura Service News published Jan 2008, calls for at least 2x drain & refill;

LinkDeny

LaCostaRacer

A single drain and fill will suffice. If you bring your own parts and can't work on the car yourself, take your car to a good independent mechanic to do this work for you. There is nothing called out in the drain/refill which requires a Honda trained mechanic to do. Also there is no need to do a 3x3 either in close intervals or even month intervals if your car has been properly maintained. The only time I would consider a 3x3 is if the OPs car has NEVER had an ATF change or was changed with some bogus ATF.

I personally went with the Redline Type-F and have 2 drain/refills of this now- my car has 65K miles now. I started using Redline at 38K miles. The transmission shifts nice and quick which I like. The newer DW1 fluid is also good and came out after I did the Redline. Cost-wise I would go with the DW1 now and just change it every 20k miles.

Sparky16

Single drain and service may or may not be sufficient in this case. OP stated he had drain & fill done, but not much in detail.

OP knows what he had done as far as tranny service on his TL, he'll have to decide what's needed. As long as he had service done regularly since the TL was in his possession, single 1x3 is all he needed.

Sparky16

Oh, OEM filter doesn't cost much more than EBay one, stick with OEM. It's in very tight area, certainly do-able DIY, I did this myself, took me a while, but done it. DIY is here;

https://acurazine.com/forums/third-g...t-pics-787078/

In the DIY above, make sure you understand what is not shown in the photos(steps 6 & 7), because he needed both hands. They're the hardest part and took me considerable amount of time.

DuoDSG

Thanks again for the continued replies, everyone- everything has been a great resource, and hopefully continues to help others in the future.

Some clarifications:

Sparky asked why this thread/my situation would be different and not require a 3x3, like the usual procedure. The reason: I am introducing a new ATF into the vehicle (Redline), NOT using the standard Z1 that is already in the car. Replacing all of it at once would be a disaster for the transmission, hence why I would do a 1x3 now, another 1x3 after another short while, etc.

LaCosta- you asked about my particular situation and why I would go with a Honda tech to do this. First, the market here in eastern Idaho for transmission service is slim pickings- there are only three places within an hour and a half radius that are willing to do this work (including replacing the pressure switches)- one independent transmission shop, the Honda dealer in Idaho Falls and the Ford dealer in Idaho Falls. Out of the three, the Honda dealer is surprisingly enough the lowest-priced AND they're willing to do the pressure switches for me right then and there as well. Although the procedure isn't super crazy, there's something to be said for the fact that they work on Hondas and Acuras so much in-house (so they are more familiar with Honda-specific procedures than the other two places would be). Mostly it's price- the other places were charging me over $100 more for the same service, bringing in the same parts.

As for the service intervals, the last drain and fill was around 30k miles ago and with my transmission being at 180,000 right now, I'm more concerned about wear (ironic, I know, because I could have changed the ATF sooner, but my nonstop schedule since May and lots of highway driving didn't allow me ANY time to get this service done).

Hence the question still stands: should I do a drain and fill with the Z1 just to get a higher proportion of newer, cleaner fluid in there BEFORE I start trying to introduce a different, new fluid into the car? (Basically a 3x3 with new Z1 and then after that is done--eventually--then start putting in Type-F). If I go with the latter option, I would be mixing super old fluid with a brand new, very different fluid and I'm concerned about the way it could affect the transmission leading to sudden failure.

Thanks for the link to your transmission filter change thread, Sparky- I have actually looked over it a number of times and it has been an invaluable resource. Thank you again for that write-up and for the follow-up found within that thread!


One last thing: this sounds silly, and I can't find the answer to this through the resources I have looked up--but I find on the Redline website that they list "Type-F" as the Racing ATF, which is obviously the highest tier of ATF. The only other kind I'm seeing is D4.

I had previously understood there to be a distinctly-named Type F fluid (even though I know it refers to a category standard of fluid as well), with the next step up being D4, and the last step up being Racing. Which is the specific name of Redline ATF that I am looking for if I'm going into the Redline family?

Thanks again for everyone's patience- I may very well be overthinking it, but I'd rather be 100% sure since it's the life or death of my car at stake.

1black_seven

iTrader: (2)

Doing 3 1x3 is recommended if you never changed your fluid in a very long time.
Put miles between each drain to let the detergents clean out the tranny.

1KLRTOY

If you still have Z1 in the transmission get it out as soon as you can its junk. The DW-1 is better but not that good. Redline is 100% synthetic and the best available. I switched to the Redline mix at 68k and have had great results (1 year). You have a lot more miles so the results might not be the same.

AMG149

thanks everyone as a new owner i find the information on this thread very helpful

DuoDSG

The only lingering question I have is about the "BM [sic] conditioner" that the tech told me they would add to any ATF they put in during the fill procedure. Apparently this is done because they want to prevent clutch pack wear from not enough friction modifiers being present in the new ATF.

Granted, everything I've read on here says that the reason why Redline's ATFs are preferable is precisely because D4 doesn't have as many friction modifiers as Z1, and Racing has none.

Obviously I can tell him to not put whatever he would put into the ATF because at the end of the day it's my car, but is there any credence to what he's saying about this conditioner that he would normally add? I'm really leaning on it being just because he's trying to be "by the book" about friction modifiers and that he's just used to doing that.

Thanks guys, great thread as always!

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

The suggestion for using Redline Racing has NOTHING to do with 'Racing'. It does have to do with the NO FM that is in the ATF that are one of the causes of failures in our transmissions.

For every two quarts of D4, put a quart of Racing Type F.

You do NOT have to wait that long to switch out the fluid. You can also just do a 1x3 and drive the vehicle for 10-15 minutes and switch through all the gears, reverse, and neutral, and then, you're set to do it again. I'd recommend doing a full 3x3 in a day-- then every other oil oil change (~10k) do a 1x3.

DO IT YOURSELF if you can. It is one of the easiest jobs possible. It is as easy as doing an oil change. I'd save your money and have the peace of mind that you know what went into it.

DuoDSG

Thanks for the response, Champ. I have done a plethora of reading in the last few hours and it is all coming together in my head-

1. The D4 already has the amount of friction modifier that I need- the tech's desire to put in the additional conditioner (to make sure that any non-Z1 ATF has enough FM to follow Honda recommendations) is bogus and unnecessary. The whole point of getting D4 into the system is to reduce the FM levels and preserve the clutch packs from constantly slipping, as would happen under a high-FM loaded ATF like Z1.

2. Type-F = Redline Racing. Since it has zero FM, and you need at least something in there with FM, the D4 serves that purpose without causing the problems that arise from using Z1. Hence the 65% racing mixture shared by Inaccurate and tested by so many people on the forum, with universally great results (taking into consideration the horror stories some people posted).

Having read even more threads on the subject, and reading on other non-AZ websites, has really put the nail in the coffin for Z1 for me. And especially for a higher-mileage engine like my TL (it is just over 180,000 right now), every little bit helps.


HOWEVER, regarding your comment, Champ, let me ask you for your specific feedback:

1. I am not doing the 1x3/3x3 myself precisely because I do not have the tools or facilities to be able to do it myself. Additionally, it has become cold enough outside that I am unable to do the work outside without freezing to death (I've tried similar projects before in these conditions, and my lack of tolerance to any cold has made it absolutely awful). As I moved here to where my wife is finishing up her undergrad, I do not have any friends here, much less anyone with a garage or tools to complete the job.

2. You mentioned just doing the full 3x3 in the same day, but changing it all at once, with Z1 that has been sitting in my transmission for such a long time, makes me worried of having my transmission die in short order, and with it, my entire vehicle wouldn't be worth owning anymore. I know, there's an inherent amount of risk involved with any procedure like this--and that I am ultimately accountable for what I choose to have done to my vehicle-- but I just don't want to basically create a disaster if it's a matter of doing a 1x3 instead of a full 3x3.

Considering MY specific situation as I've shared it in my posts above, do you STILL recommend a full 3x3 in ONE day with a 6 quarts D4 and 3 quarts Racing, even though my transmission is at 180k and only has old Z1 within it?

Once this is answered, I will click "Place Order" on my cart ( since I'll know the quantities and fluids I need) and finally be on my way to get this done once and for all.

You guys have been a TREMENDOUS help. So many thanks!

DuoDSG

I couldn't edit the above post, so let me ask my question a bit clearer:

In the original Inaccurate thread where he was testing ratios and they were discussing the ramifications of this new fluid mixture in the transmission, IHC said this specifically as a response to another person with a similar question to mine:

Also, the suggested 2 quarts of D4 to 1 quart of racing in this thread seem contrary to the 65% racing/D4 mixture in Inaccurate's Optimal Percentage thread. I need to know which is the correct one so I can actually order the right quantities for the procedure.

Sorry to be asking so many questions, but I am super paranoid about doing this right and not blowing up my car. Thanks!

1KLRTOY

You might start out doing a 1X3 with all Redline racing this will reduce the amount of FM in the transmission. There is a post giving the steps to reach the 65-35%, if you haven't done a search already for the post do so as I found it very helpful as I'm a fairly new owner of a TL also. My results with Redline have been excellent, I also flushed my PS and used Redline high temp ATF along with 4ozs of Redline's break-in additive which has the anti wear properties needed, the fluid is still red after 1 year and no leaks or noise from the PS. You should see a big improvement in the shifting after you change the switches and do the first flush with the racing fluid, but like life there are no guarantees..

DuoDSG

Well I think I just answered my own question...

https://acurazine.com/forums/third-g.../#post13268523

Somehow I scrolled over this post since I was focusing on Inaccurate's and IHC's posts on the subject. The original poster that Inaccurate responded to is essentially in my same situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would need eight quarts of Racing and one quart of D4- I was being an idiot and thinking of the math too simplistically. Of course the first two of the drains and fills would be 3 quarts of nothing but Racing, it's going through and cleaning out the old Z1. The last fill would need the D4, since that's where the FM that I need still in the mixture would come from, and it would "stay" in my car.

Sorry for such a rambling thread. I've been contacted by a number of people PMing me that have said that they appreciate it, because they are also overthinking the problem like I am, so this kind of thinking aloud (and asking for feedback) is helping quite a few people.

Thanks!

1KLRTOY

Just change the switches (very important) and drain and refill with 3qts racing and see how it shifts, you should notice an improvement right away, not huge but just better then just follow the procedure in the post. The idea is to finally get you to the 65-35%. I've had that ratio for a year and its the wife's car and she has no complaints about harsh shifting, the shifts are just quick and positive. I hope this works out for you, let us know your results after you've done several flushes. I do a flush with 2 racing and 1 D6 at every oil change now or at 5k that maintains the 65-35% ratio.

DuoDSG

Update:

I've gone ahead and purchased 4 quarts Lightweight Racing, 4 quarts Racing and 1 quart of D4, so I will be following Inaccurate's recommended mixture during the 3x3.

The only thing I'm worried about is doing it all at once when I change the switches (meaning, I'd be doing a 1x3 this first time, and then after some interval do the next one, etc, until I finish the process).

I think in my mind I'm still trying to see what the difference/pros and cons would be of doing the entire 3x3 at once (meaning, the same day) compared to just doing a 1x3 now. Good points have been shared in this thread but I'm looking for as final of a verdict as possible- aka "would YOU do it to your car, if you were in my situation".

So:

1x3 and switches now, with the 2nd and 3rd parts after some interval

OR

3x3 all in the same day (along with switches obviously)

?