Those with lack of power/surging in hot weather...
06-08-2012, 12:46 AM
#1
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Those with lack of power/surging in hot weather...
So this subject has been ongoing in a few threads, namely the "valve chatter" thread started years ago.
All cars lose power in hotter weather, it's normal. This thread is not about those cars. This is about the TLs that surge and will barely move out of their own way in higher temps. I'm talking about flooring it and barely being able to keep up with traffic. Having to shift manually in the auto because it has nothing under 4,000 rpm. The car hesitating and surging under acceleration. I can hear the induction noise so I know the throttle is open but it just makes no power above about 78 degrees ambient... or maybe it was 68 degrees. It was like someone flipped a switch and it lost 100hp. It literally takes around 1/2 to 3/4 throttle to accelerate normally in the summer.
In the past, I've had success with raising the octane with a mix of 109 unleaded and 91 to get a minimum mixture of 96 octane. It still was not perfect but this was the best "solution". Everything else has been tried from thermostat to plugs to fuel brand to TPS, IAT, EGR, etc.
The one common factor that's been here since the car started this summer time behavior around '07 or '08 is the Optima battery. The stock one lasted about a year (or two, can't remember). The Optima was installed over the winter a long time ago but it was never a great battery (I hate Optimas) and after being run completely dead early on it never quite recovered completely. I procrastinated getting a new battery until it finally started worrying me the car was not going to start this last winter.
I replaced it with a Sears Diehard Platinum which is an AGM battery made by Enersys. The exact same battery is also sold under the Odyssey label. It's a great battery and the exact same battery re-branded as a Sears instead of an Odyssey is about $100 cheaper. So enough about the type of battery. As it started getting hotter this year, I noticed that although the car was losing power, it was a more normal loss of power. I didn't get my hopes up because I've gotten them up many times before only to be let down. So as temps climbed, the car continued to run normal. I didn't want to say anything until we had at least a few weeks of high temps to be sure. The only thing that's changed is the battery. I've done nothing else to the car.
So as of now, I can say that at least into the 90s, the car for the first time since it was 2 years old behaves normal. No more surging and huge loss of power. It drives as it should and it's been consistent on every hot day so far. To clarify, battery connections were checked several times over the years, it was not the connections but the battery itself.
I'm not saying everyone has to go out and get a $200 battery but if you're having these issues as I know some people have been and you've tried everything with no luck, replace the battery especially if you're still on the stock one or if you know battery performance has degraded. This one "mod" has made me go from wanting to sell the car each summer to enjoying it year round again.
If the car goes back to running like crap at some point this summer, I'll update this thread but we've had quite a few days in the 90s so far and I'm pretty confident it's fixed this time. We'll see what happens when it gets over 100 degrees.
All cars lose power in hotter weather, it's normal. This thread is not about those cars. This is about the TLs that surge and will barely move out of their own way in higher temps. I'm talking about flooring it and barely being able to keep up with traffic. Having to shift manually in the auto because it has nothing under 4,000 rpm. The car hesitating and surging under acceleration. I can hear the induction noise so I know the throttle is open but it just makes no power above about 78 degrees ambient... or maybe it was 68 degrees. It was like someone flipped a switch and it lost 100hp. It literally takes around 1/2 to 3/4 throttle to accelerate normally in the summer.
In the past, I've had success with raising the octane with a mix of 109 unleaded and 91 to get a minimum mixture of 96 octane. It still was not perfect but this was the best "solution". Everything else has been tried from thermostat to plugs to fuel brand to TPS, IAT, EGR, etc.
The one common factor that's been here since the car started this summer time behavior around '07 or '08 is the Optima battery. The stock one lasted about a year (or two, can't remember). The Optima was installed over the winter a long time ago but it was never a great battery (I hate Optimas) and after being run completely dead early on it never quite recovered completely. I procrastinated getting a new battery until it finally started worrying me the car was not going to start this last winter.
I replaced it with a Sears Diehard Platinum which is an AGM battery made by Enersys. The exact same battery is also sold under the Odyssey label. It's a great battery and the exact same battery re-branded as a Sears instead of an Odyssey is about $100 cheaper. So enough about the type of battery. As it started getting hotter this year, I noticed that although the car was losing power, it was a more normal loss of power. I didn't get my hopes up because I've gotten them up many times before only to be let down. So as temps climbed, the car continued to run normal. I didn't want to say anything until we had at least a few weeks of high temps to be sure. The only thing that's changed is the battery. I've done nothing else to the car.
So as of now, I can say that at least into the 90s, the car for the first time since it was 2 years old behaves normal. No more surging and huge loss of power. It drives as it should and it's been consistent on every hot day so far. To clarify, battery connections were checked several times over the years, it was not the connections but the battery itself.
I'm not saying everyone has to go out and get a $200 battery but if you're having these issues as I know some people have been and you've tried everything with no luck, replace the battery especially if you're still on the stock one or if you know battery performance has degraded. This one "mod" has made me go from wanting to sell the car each summer to enjoying it year round again.
If the car goes back to running like crap at some point this summer, I'll update this thread but we've had quite a few days in the 90s so far and I'm pretty confident it's fixed this time. We'll see what happens when it gets over 100 degrees.
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06-08-2012, 08:06 AM
#3
Could a faulty/weak battery really be the true cause of this "loss" of power? Maybe swapping the battery reseted the ECU which provided the true power? But it seems like you know what you're talking about so you would've probably already manually reset the ECU :/.
06-08-2012, 08:16 AM
#4
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Cool, although it has been hot here I haven't had this problem, yet -knock on wood-.
06-08-2012, 09:08 AM
#5
Drifting
I hate cars -
that could be a very plausible explanation. one of the misconceptions by a lot of people is that most if not all car batteries lose power during the cold months. I did a lot of reading and found out that heat is actually one main cause of degrading battery life. so it is quite possible a good battery (I normally swap out batteries after two years, regardless of the condition) would alleviate these loss of power.
I have had to endure this power loss over the past 6 years, but the power loss was more of what you described as "normal". its not like I suddenly lost 100hp and the car became an anchor or something. it just ran poorly during the summer months.
that could be a very plausible explanation. one of the misconceptions by a lot of people is that most if not all car batteries lose power during the cold months. I did a lot of reading and found out that heat is actually one main cause of degrading battery life. so it is quite possible a good battery (I normally swap out batteries after two years, regardless of the condition) would alleviate these loss of power.
I have had to endure this power loss over the past 6 years, but the power loss was more of what you described as "normal". its not like I suddenly lost 100hp and the car became an anchor or something. it just ran poorly during the summer months.
06-08-2012, 09:16 AM
#6
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heat kills a battery faster.
06-09-2012, 02:08 AM
#7
Cruisin'
Thanks a Million for posting this, I have a 2003 TL-S and was gonna trade it in for a 07-08.
Sometimes when I turn the car on, it wont start or it will start up very weak and then turn off...I have to give it a litttle gas for it to stay on.
Everything in the car is new, so i was getting really worried about this.
(First car) well beside my crappy dodge stratus that isnt even worthy of talking about.
Ugh cars and the headaches they give.
Sometimes when I turn the car on, it wont start or it will start up very weak and then turn off...I have to give it a litttle gas for it to stay on.
Everything in the car is new, so i was getting really worried about this.
(First car) well beside my crappy dodge stratus that isnt even worthy of talking about.
Ugh cars and the headaches they give.
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06-09-2012, 08:14 AM
#8
Correlation does not equal causation. If you had a voltage meter and checked the voltage of the old battery in hot conditions vs cold conditions then you might have the data that you need to form this assumption. Maybe the old battery would get so hot that it was causing problems? I doubt that's the case though if the battery was starting the car just fine.
06-09-2012, 08:27 AM
#9
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I hope someone else will chime in when they replace their battery with just a regular one, $200 seems like A LOT for a battery.
06-09-2012, 11:20 AM
#10
07 WDP TL Type S
Im having the same issue in mine although i replaced my battery with an optima red top just 4-5 months ago. I was thinking that maybe i should replace my AEM V2's air filter as well just in case.
06-09-2012, 01:13 PM
#11
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Correlation does not equal causation. If you had a voltage meter and checked the voltage of the old battery in hot conditions vs cold conditions then you might have the data that you need to form this assumption. Maybe the old battery would get so hot that it was causing problems? I doubt that's the case though if the battery was starting the car just fine.
Battery power drops off in cold conditions. Starting requirements are higher in cold conditions. See how this might be a problem with a marginal battery? Regardless, as I stated, car ran fine in the winter but it was about the leave me stranded.
Hot conditions will shorten the life of the battery but output is at it's highest in the summer and starting requirements are lower as well. Regardless, the battery can start the car and still show low voltage when running even with the alternator putting out.
Extensive testing has been performed over many years. The battery fixed the problem in the end. The past 4 summers have been miserable when I had a crappy battery. The problem is gone after replacing the battery for the first time in over 4 years. Would you like me to explain how important full voltage is and why it can cause the problems I was experiencing especially in the summer?
But to clarify, if someone else was having this issue, a $200 battery is not needed to fix it, any new battery will do the job. I added this line in the OP just so people wouldn't think I was saying a $200 battery was necessary. "I'm not saying everyone has to go out and get a $200 battery but if you're having these issues as I know some people have been and you've tried everything with no luck, replace the battery especially if you're still on the stock one or if you know battery performance has degraded."
For the ones suggesting resetting the ECU was the cause, it's been done about 50 times in the past.
So again, this won't cure normal summertime power loss. If you're wondering if your car falls into the same category as mine, it probably doesn't. The car driving this badly in the summer would cause most people to take it to the dealer to get it fixed. It's not a subtle problem. This is only for a handful of TLs, most of which posted in the valve chatter thread with this problem. I identified the problem years ago, it was a matter of how to fix it. The car ran lean and detonated badly in the summer on premium fuel. One summer I ran 100 octane and it drove much better since it cured the detonation but it still had some surging due to the lean condition. The problem is, the ECU was not seeing a lean condition, I had to drive it normally on the dyno with a sniffer to detect it. I also didn't put a whole lot of weight on the dyno results post catalytic converter but coupled with everything else it was another clue. I knew it was running lean because it drove like it was running lean but the ECU showed a normal AF ratio on the scanner. Most likely reference voltage was off.
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06-09-2012, 03:47 PM
#13
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Between me and my father, we went through over 10 Optimas in a few years in various cars. One of which was a GN with the battery in the trunk so heat wasn't much of a factor. Several friends with BMWs and Mercedes with the batteries in the trunk went through Optimas quickly. In all cases, switching to a regular battery was the cure. The one I put in my TL (knowing better) lasted for a while but runtime with the engine off was worse than the stock battery and after the first year it was always making me nervous it wasn't going to start the car. The fact that they charge a premium price for a worse than average battery makes the decision to not buy one easy.
I would never tell anyone they NEED an expensive battery but if they're going to spend more money on a premium battery, Optima is not the one you want.
06-09-2012, 04:11 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
As you know i might be the guy complaining the most about this problem and so many parts i have changed and nothing.... Funny thing is that i do have an optima yellow top in my car ....
Which exact battery did you purchase??
Which exact battery did you purchase??
06-09-2012, 04:32 PM
#15
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Did you have the issues before the Optima?
06-09-2012, 05:06 PM
#18
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Two summers in the Bossier City and Dallas summer heat. Heat soaking 8-10 hours/day in the base parking lot. Never had a problem. OEM battery.
06-09-2012, 05:10 PM
#19
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I really hope it fixes your problem. You sound as frustrated as I have been and your problem from your previous posts sounds identical. Looking forward to your results but don't throw the Optima away yet lol.
06-09-2012, 05:17 PM
#20
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06-09-2012, 08:15 PM
#21
Three Wheelin'
I didnt throw it away but it started leaking recently and today when i opened the hood to replace it with the new battery there was a lot of acid around the negative terminal.... So i replaced it, had to get new tie down because the original ones i think i had cut down at one point. So far so good, it cranks much easier and feels good. Even though tonight it was very humid and i had the car idle a lot and no power extreme power loss. So yes so far so good, lets see how it will hold up in the next few days...
06-09-2012, 09:49 PM
#23
06-09-2012, 10:39 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
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06-10-2012, 01:33 PM
#27
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I did not have any issues last summer but I recently had to charge my current battery over-night last week. Think one of the relay's I installed may have been culprit.
If I have to jump my battery 1 more time I will buy a new one. That sears one sounds decent as I also have owned 2 optimas. The yellow top I was very disappointed in and I actually had no complaints with the red top.
Good thread.
If I have to jump my battery 1 more time I will buy a new one. That sears one sounds decent as I also have owned 2 optimas. The yellow top I was very disappointed in and I actually had no complaints with the red top.
Good thread.
06-10-2012, 01:40 PM
#28
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I did not have any issues last summer but I recently had to charge my current battery over-night last week. Think one of the relay's I installed may have been culprit.
If I have to jump my battery 1 more time I will buy a new one. That sears one sounds decent as I also have owned 2 optimas. The yellow top I was very disappointed in and I actually had no complaints with the red top.
Good thread.
If I have to jump my battery 1 more time I will buy a new one. That sears one sounds decent as I also have owned 2 optimas. The yellow top I was very disappointed in and I actually had no complaints with the red top.
Good thread.
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06-10-2012, 01:42 PM
#29
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I didnt throw it away but it started leaking recently and today when i opened the hood to replace it with the new battery there was a lot of acid around the negative terminal.... So i replaced it, had to get new tie down because the original ones i think i had cut down at one point. So far so good, it cranks much easier and feels good. Even though tonight it was very humid and i had the car idle a lot and no power extreme power loss. So yes so far so good, lets see how it will hold up in the next few days...
06-10-2012, 05:39 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Same like yours i believe... It was the 35.. For 219 die hard platinum. I dont wanna jinx anything but the car drives much better in general more responsive and finally there is acceleration below 2000 rpm. There is no sign of power loss yet. I just hope so much that it stays this way. You are a genious !!
06-10-2012, 05:52 PM
#31
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Same like yours i believe... It was the 35.. For 219 die hard platinum. I dont wanna jinx anything but the car drives much better in general more responsive and finally there is acceleration below 2000 rpm. There is no sign of power loss yet. I just hope so much that it stays this way. You are a genious !!
06-10-2012, 06:15 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
today i went to a croatian community gathering which was like an hour away from my house with mixed highway and local driving, some uphills as well. It was me and my wife with her made of honor, cant say we were to heavy but i do have a system in the trunk which is kept to a minimum but there is weight none the less. To my point ... the car never felt lighter Driving 60mph seemed smooth and a nicely flowing. I can tell on the comptech exhaust if something is up but in this case it was in sync and it was beautiful driving the car. I actually didnt mind having more people in my car
I was also paying attention to the rpm's needle, noticed a change there too. much more responsive to my input.
Going back i was afraid it would be different but the drive back home was exact as going there.
It was very humid today... but everything turned out good, even croatia won against ireland in the UEFA 2012 european cup match.
06-10-2012, 09:59 PM
#35
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Interesting. Subscribed. I have the same battery as you Matt but I got it a few months ago while the temps have not been so high. I wonder how it will perform based on what your saying.
06-10-2012, 10:55 PM
#36
Drifting
I always buy the highest cranking amps in a battery. Because I like the current and I'm weird. It's like tires. I hate crap tires.
06-10-2012, 11:10 PM
#37
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06-10-2012, 11:14 PM
#38
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If you weren't experiencing a huge power loss with the old battery, you're not going to see any improvements. But it is a great battery in many ways. With the warranty it has, I just can't imagine ever having to buy another battery, at least not for full price. If you do see improvements, I would love to know about it. On my GN I installed a resistor that bumped alternator voltage up to 14.9v. It made the car feel a little more responsive even though that was not the purpose of it. I wonder if the TL can benefit from a small voltage boost even if everything else is ok. I'm guessing no but you never know.
06-10-2012, 11:20 PM
#39
Drifting
If I get a warranty and high cranking amps, I'm happy. I've never had a problem with low power as a result from a battery, like what u described. I've been driving for years. That's not to say u have not encountered a problem.. but the next time I get a battery it will like be at Walmart or some auto store ..and with high cranking amps and all batteries have warranties so I'm good.
06-11-2012, 12:32 AM
#40
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If I get a warranty and high cranking amps, I'm happy. I've never had a problem with low power as a result from a battery, like what u described. I've been driving for years. That's not to say u have not encountered a problem.. but the next time I get a battery it will like be at Walmart or some auto store ..and with high cranking amps and all batteries have warranties so I'm good.