csmeance

I'm probably going to have to do a brake fluid flush soon and had a few questions for the folks that have already done it:

1. For the AT, is 1/4 inch pipe good or 3/16 inch pipe needed? I figure the latter would make a better seal

2. In a thread someone mention putting 2 of the check-valves inline with one another (us plastics 57172/57173); are both necessary or is 1 good enough (1 man brake flush)?

3. Is it advisable to suck out all/a good majority the old brake fluid from the reservoir and put in new fluid and then drain from the calipers till I get new fluid, or is it better to add fluid as needed to the reservoir and just drain from the caliper until it looks new?

4. How much fluid will I need for a full complete flush? I've seen some folks use only 2, others with 4 in a picture in a DIY and so on. I'm looking at Motul 5.1 (7.99 on amazon + 6.99 shipping for 500ml bottles) and it's the same price to ship no matter the # of bottles.

5. How long will the fluid last on the shelf? I will probably swap out the fluid in my MDX and the accord soon (accord's fluid is already a year old and the Florida humidity and living by the ocean doesn't help)

6. While I have the wheel off, is it advisable to grease/lubricate or clean/degrease anything else?

nfnsquared

dude, really? there's 4-5 page thread on this subject...

ez12a

at least in my experience, where the fluid was very, very dark almost like coke, 2 small bottles of fluid was not enough. It's just a dark amber now. I would get 2 bigger bottles (double the size of the smaller ones iirc.) i dont remember the fluid oz.

fluid should last quite a while on the shelf. They've got their own airtight seal. Definitely more sealed than your master cyl and brake sys. Of course given that the seal isnt broken.

I think it's better to pump out as much as you can until the Min line, then refill. Introducing air into the system would give you a headache. I'd rather have 3/4 clean fluid than have to go through getting the air out. Fluid is cheap imo.

csmeance

yes really, I read though that thread with "humble pie" posted and about 30 other threads but some folks were varying a bit and no one really said the amount of fluid needed. I also checked the service manual in various sections and couldn't find any specific sizes, it was generalized (IE use properly sized drain tube).

These bottles were 500ML so about 16.9 Fluid OZ. Amazon has a case of 12 for 90 dollars and I have 3 cars to do in the future so I might just buy that and sell what I don't use.

Thanks for the help!

Inaccurate

Hi csmeance,

I am sorry for taking so long to reply. I have not been hanging out on the forum much because of time constraints.

The link below (especially page 4) discusses my check valve method. I do highly recommend the check valve bleeding method. I will for sure use it the next time I bleed brakes.

Brake Fluid change (click here)

Also, I wish to apologize on behalf of any disrespectful replies. Your contribution to our forum is very much appreciated. Any time that we can offer you help in return is a pleasure my friend.

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

How I bleed brakes. 100% success rate.

Put car on 4 jackstands, you dont have to but it helps alot.
Remove all 4 wheels.

FLUSH Needs about 1 liter of fluid
Start with the rear right, remove rubber nipple and then use a wrench or socket to loosen the bleeder valve.

Remember, lefty loosey, righty tighty.

After it's loose, there now is air in the system but don't worry about it right now.

You can attach a clear hose around the end of the bleed valve so you can see if there are any air bubbles coming out of the brake system.

Open your hood , if you haven't yet and look for the master cylinder. Should be at the top right corner of the engine bay. Unscrew the cap and remove the filter inside.

Go in your car (with the engine off) pump your brakes a few times , check the fluid level in the master cylinder. I try to get it as low as possible so when I do put the new fluid in, theres not much of the fluids mixing. Also, make sure that the fluid coming out of the bleed valve is going into a bucket or something.

Pump the brakes a bunch of times so you are sure that the old fluid is gone. If you are using a fluid such as ATE super blue, then you can see the color change. Once you have pumped enough, then close up the bleeder valve but not too tightly because you can strip it.

Repeat for the other 3 corners.

Rear Right --> Rear Left --> Front Right --> Front Left
Rear Passanger --> Rear Driver --> Front Passanger --> Front Driver

Don't forget, as you can progress closer to the front right, there is less fluid in the lines since the length from the master cylinder is getting shorter so you don't have to pump as much.

When you are done , it's time to bleed.

Gravity BleedingThis is why you need at least 1 liter of fluid if you plan on doing both.

Fill up the MC fluid to the top or a bit more.

Find 4 bottles or buckets to collect the brake fluid.

Open ALL bleeder valves, for Brembos such as the ones I have, there are two bleeder valves on the front so you open both at the same time. You can put plastic hoses around the valves to pretend the brake fluid from going everywhere.

Let the brake fluid drip for a while. It can take from 10-30+ mins depending on how bad your brakes were (if you had a bunch of air in it)

Make sure to keep any eye on the MC and keep filling up the fluid.

After you are done waiting, it's time to close the bleeder valves.

You can tighten any of them in any order. Once you car done tightening them, clean the area with brake cleaner. Then put on the wheel, etc.

Turn on the car and try out the pedal feel, it should feel good.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

A few items need to be addressed so as to avoid any confusion.

After loosening the bleeder there will no air that enters the system, but I wouldn’t loosen the bleeder until a hose is attached and submersed in brake fluid or after pumping has been done if 2 man operation.

With the bleeder opened and a clear hose attached, when the brake pedal comes up it will suck air back into the system if you don’t close the bleeder or have the hose submersed in brake fluid. Even if the hose is in brake fluid there is a remote possibility that air can come in through the threads on the bleeder. This is why some may want to put some grease around the area where the bleeder enters the caliper.

Actual bleeding procedure for the TL is:
LF, RF, RR, LR and if 4 piston caliper the outside is bleed, then the inside.

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

Turbonut, it's ok to let air in the lines when flushing because gravity bleeding will be done right afterwards. This method I like over the 2 man pumping brakes because it puts less stress on overworking the master cylinder and the possibility of pushing the brake pedal past it's regular travel motion

s_vares

I agree, I gravity bleed most systems. Cycling the key a few times is a good practice as it turns on the ABS pump

94eg!

This thread is fail. You guys should quit monkeying around and do the 2 person method as that is what is outlined in the OEM shop manual. Even with a hose over the bleed port, there is not an air-tight seal at the threads between the port and caliper once the port is loosened. This is why Honda doesn't recommend gravity or check-valve bleeding. Plus slow gravity bleeding will not guarantee removal of all air in the lines. It can still get trapped in cavities and high spots as long as the slow moving fluid can still get past it.

And the proper bleed sequence for the 3G TL is LF, RF, RR, LR. And if you have brembo's you bleed the outer port first, followed by the inner port.

I have not seen one single Honda that had a bleed sequence of RR, LR, RF, LF in OEM/Helm shop manual. I personally looked up 88-91 Crx, 92-95 Civic, 92-96 Prelude, 94-01 Integra, 03+ Element, 03-08 Pilot, 04-08 TL.

s_vares

Gravity bleeding does not require a seal, and if you are not replacing parts and filling the system with air I have not had a case where it didnt work.
Im not saing other methods are "fail" or wont work, there are many ways to to this with the same results.

The only time I have had an issue was with a ford truck that requires a scan tool to cycle the pump. Since then, I use the key trick. I have never had a brake job I have done come back to my shop.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Gravity bleeding is just that, open the bleeder and let the fluid drips out. There will be no air that enters the caliper as there will be no suction action to bring it in.

You are correct, but why would anyone want to have air enter the system and then need to do a gravity bleed to make a correction. Do it right the first time and one time only.

I’ve bleed brakes 2 man, 1 person with hose into brake fluid, used a pressure bleeder and a vacuum bleeder, and never had a problem with air entering though the bleeder threads. If one wanted to be extra careful, as stated before, just dab some grease around the bleeder threads at the caliper and you’ll be good to go.

Best of all, pressure bleeder.

Hacura

Thanks for the confusion guys.

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

thank my post then

94eg!

It's all good guys. As you can see there is many ways to skin this cat. You can gravity bleed, vacuum bleed, check-valve bleed, or 2-person bleed. All will work just fine. The 2-person method is what's outlined in the OEM shop manual as is the bleed sequence of LF, RF, RR, LR. One person pumps the pedal and holds pressure, while the other opens & closes the bleed port. Do it over and over again till you see clean fluid coming out.

To directly answer your questions with my opinions:

1- As for the hoses that fit the bleed ports, I can't remember and the manual doesn't say. I know the last clear hose I bought was pretty small and it made it very difficult to slip over the bleed port. You may want to go for the 1/4" size.

2- I wouldn't do the check-valve thing.

3- using a turkey baster to suck the old fluid out and filling the reservoir with fresh fluid will save you time bleeding. You can also just pump the old fluid out of a caliper till it's low and then fill it with fresh fluid. This takes longer cause you have to do extra bleeding.

4- You will need at least 2 small bottles or one big bottle of brake fluid. I would rather use DOT-3 because it soaks up the most water which helps protect your brake system from corrosion. The less water the fluid soaks up, the more corrosion you will have within the system. You just have to replace it more often (every 2 to 3 years).

5-Once the seal on the brake fluid has been broken, consider the fluid spent. You should not try to store it for use at a later time. It will begin absorbing moisture right away, and will probably absorb more moisture on the shelf than in your brake system. Always use a freshly sealed bottle of brake fluid when working on a brake system.

6- I like to wash the calipers since I've got the brembos (6MT). They are hard to clean completely with the wheels on. The standard calipers come clean just fine through the wheels when washing the car. You may want to check the thickness of your pads while your in there. Just remove the bottom bolt of the caliper and it should swing up to reveal the pads (if you have 5AT). The 6MT brembo pads can be viewed by simply turning the steering wheel. The only time you really need to service the calipers is when your replacing pads.

sodaks2k

iTrader: (4)

subscribed

sodaks2k

iTrader: (4)

I wonder why Honda recommends this way, when stoptech recommends the opposite.

"1. Begin at the corner furthest from the driver and proceed in order toward the driver. (Right rear, left rear, right front, left front.) While the actual sequence is not critical to the bleed performance it is easy to remember the sequence as the farthest to the closest. This will also allow the system to be bled in such a way as to minimize the amount of potential cross-contamination between the new and old fluid."

From here

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...edbrakes.shtml

94eg!

That Stoptech method is just the old wife's tale that you will hear repeated endlessly in every bleed thread you ever read. It's not important do the furthest to closest "caliper". It's important to bleed through the fluid junction devices from furthest to closest. Honda does it this way on this vehicle because of how the brake lines connect to the ABS system since that is the junction that sends fluid to each wheel.

If you look at non ABS 92-95 Civics, they bleed RR, RF, LR, LF. That is because of the two separate channels (1 for each opposite corner). The junction device is the proportioning valve.

sodaks2k

iTrader: (4)

Ahhhh, that makes sense. I learned something new today. Thanks!

DeathMetal

iTrader: (2)

94eg! is alllll over the correct way to do this. Highly recommend this method.

Majofo

csmeance isn't a noob, he's an encyclopedia of knowledge in this section.. so I wouldn't treat him like one.

ez12a

alrighty this thread inspired me to attempt to flush the rest of the amber fluid out. Now i have fresh clear fluid in the reservoir. I'll need to continue at another time (dad's busy) and flush the rest out of the other lines.

my fluid: (left was sucked out of my reservoir via baster, right was the resulting fluid from pumping and filling). The reservoir fluid had this greenish cloud

HondaFan81

I too agree with 94eg's comments.

I recently completed 6MT Brembo front rotor & pad replacement for first time since I purchased my 04 TL. Changed brake fluid while in there, given no prior history and fluid was amber color. I took me 2 new bottles of Honda brake fluid (small bottles).

I performed 2 man operation. I used brake bleed sequence first time to remove old fluid and second time to bleed out and while new fluid came through. Brakes are firm and very responsive.

A SiQ TL

Went ahead and did this today. I ended up buying a 32oz bottle of brake fluid and using it all. The LF wheel took the longest. For some reason , I was thinking the new fluid would show up in the hose once all the old fluid was pushed through. In other words, you could clearly see where the dark old fluid ended, and the clear new fluid started.
Actually the color just gradually got lighter. I used the 2 man method, and pumped a lot before I noticed the change. The fluid never got totally clear in the line, but did get a light amber shade.
I put everything back together and test drove it, making sure to do 2 ABS stops. I didn't notice any change in my pedal, but I did notice my steering wheel didn't pulse nearly as bad. I thought my front rotors were warped, now I'm not sure.
After the test drive I was going to change my brakes, but my 4 year old did something with my wheel lock lug key while I was gone. Can't find it anywhere. Now I can't get my damn wheels off.

94eg!

I just did my brake fluid as well on a 6MT. What a bitch. If you try doing this with the wheels on, it's totally lame. I won't make that mistake again. I was being a total spaz.

I had the same experience with the LF. Took what seemed all day. I was trying to pump all the old fluid out of the reservoir as well, so that explains some of the extended time.

And yes it always takes a long time to notice the gradual change in color of the fluid. This is why most enthusiest and racers use a brake fluid like ATE Super Blue. It's blue in color so you can easily tell when you get to the fresh fluid. Cool part is ATE makes the same fluid in Amber (ATE Type200) for the next time you change your brakes. This is one of the worlds best DOT 4 brake fluids with a wet boiling point (388*) almost as high as DOT 4's standard for dry boiling point (446*f). This stuff is awesome. You can get it for about $21 shipped for a 1L can on ebay. Less if you buy more in one order of course.

Izzy-Type-S

iTrader: (1)

Will check in on this later.

94eg!

BTW: I gave gravity bleeding a try last night and found it would be pretty decent IF you don't already have air in the lines (ie: if you didn't replace anything in the hydraulic system). One important note is that you will want to loop your bleed-hose so it turns upward immediately after the bleed port. This way any air in the bleed hose cannot back up into the caliper during the process. I figure I will use this method again when it's time to replace old brake fluid when I'm by myself. If at some point you've replaced a component and introduced air into the system, then the two-person method is still the best because the speed & pressure of the fluid is the only guarantee that ALL the air is moving down the lines.

Gravity bleeding with air in the system: This method will get enough air out to have your car running again if you absolutely have to get to work the next day, and nobody is around to help you. In my case I tried it after replacing the master cylinder (bench bled it), proportioning valve, front brake hoses and front calipers. It did get enough air out to make the car driveable, but I can tell there is still some in there. Be sure to road test with your hand on the e-brake just in case there is not enough pedal pressure to stop the car.

Chessie724

Subscribed. I need to do this sooner rather than later. Thanks to the contributors.

94eg!

ABS system won't let gravity bleeding work on this car. Fluid won't flow on it's own. The car I tried it on didn't have ABS. Your going to have to go with the two person method or check-valve method.

Azndjay

phoenix system reverse brake bleed are the way to go with one person bleeds. i just used them on my TL-S works great.

http://www.brakebleeder.com/products.../v-12-diy.html

94eg!

That "reverse" system is ridiculous. Your forcing all the old fluid back up into the reservoir where you have to suck it out. Then each time you change to a different caliper, your forcing old fluid back up into the fresh fluid. What a joke. And $80 for that plastic thing seems silly. If I had that I would hook it up backwards and suck the old fluid down and out the caliper. This draws only fresh fluid into the system from one point where it will spread out. No opportunity for old fluid to get left behind.

STL_2kTL

I am an old guy. Maybe I can help by letting you guys know you are putting yourselves through way too much pain to flush brakes!

For a grand total of $8.49 you can get the Autozone OEM/One man brake bleeder kit... I have used mine probably two dozen times over fifteen years and it is the easiest, cheapest, bestest method you will find. You can do it yourself in a jiffy. I use a 90 degree rubber vacuum adapter to get on the TL bleeder screw without having to remove the wheels. No kidding.

I hope this helps.

Sparky16

Just watched YouTube video on above "one man brake bleeder kit" demonstration, looked pretty simple and easy, no second person needed. Here's the YouTube link, I need to get this done ASAP, let me know what you gurus think;

STL_2kTL

Right on!

Forget about putting the cap back on the master cylinder reservoir before you are completely finished with the job. You need to add fluid after every few bottle-fulls of old fluid you remove from the system. Notice he slipped a box-end offset wrench on the bleeder fitting before the hose is slipped onto the bleed screw. Also, save yourself some grief and carefully spray a couple of drops of Twister or other penetrating oil on all four of your bleeder screws and let it sit before you attempt to loosen them. A snapped bleeder makes for a crappy day.

fordcourier72

I just used the bg flush machine. makes it quick and easy. it also helps that my shop has 5 of them running around, and doing it on a lift and not having to even remove the tires is even better.

sam617

Can I use a motive power bleeder to perform the brake flush job?? Also, let get the bleeding order straight. It's outer left front,inner left front, outer right front, inner right front, rear right, and left rear, is this right?? Thanks, Sam

thegipper

Just replaced my fluid using the following method and it worked flawlessly. The fluid was $6, a turkey baster was a buck, and the piece of hose was 40 cents. I used Valvoline synthetic Dot 3/4 fluid btw.

Use the turkey baster to suck as much of the oil fluid out of the reservoir as possible.
Top off with new fluid.
Crack open bleeder valve on frost left wheel.
Hook up 1/4" clear hose to bleeder valve.
Drill hole on top of old water bottle (clean with nothing in it) and insert hose so that the hose goes all the way to the bottom.
Put a few inches of the old fluid in the water bottle ensuring that the hose is fully submerged.

Now start pumping the brake pedal with the car off and keep an eye on the reservoir, filling it as needed. Do NOT let the reservoir ever get below the "min" line, if you suck air in the master cylinder you're screwed.

As soon as you see nice new clean fluid coming out, simple re tighten the bleeder valve.

Repeat the bleeding process for the rear right, front right, and rear left wheels.

Top off fluid, take it for a test drive. Give it a couple good hard ABS brake checks to make sure everything is working and you're done.

Worked perfectly for me, no issues, super simple and dirt cheap. I know I'm not the first to use this method just letting everyone know my experience. I did it last night by the way. The old fluid was pitch black.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Maybe just a typo error, but you listed FL, RR, FR, RL
The actual sequence should be:
FL....FR.... RR.... RL

Can't see what, if any problems would be encountered by deviating from the sequence, but starting with the closest and following the Acura sequence may be easier and a more efficient method.

csmeance

Just to post an update after a while of posting this...

I bought a vacuum brake bleeding kit at harbor freight for $22 and used that with some Honda Dot3 Fluid. I didn't even need to take off the tires to get the the bleed valves since I jacked it up high enough.

I used a "fluid pump" from Harbor Freight ($4) and took out all the fluid from the container and it was def. time to change it. I took out about 1/2 a water bottle of fluid from the container and then added in new fluid until it was full.

I slipped the end of the wrench on the bolt, attached the clear tubing that came with the kit and pumped it up to form a vaccum to ensure that it was sealed. I loosened the valve 1/2 turn and kept pumping for 3-4 min until the little bottle (100ml) was filled with the old fluid.

I emptied the dirty fluid and repeated this process (your fingers get tired by the 3rd wheel ). I took the car for a drive, engaged the ABS and made sure everything was night and tight.

I did the MDX, 3G TL and accord in one day over the course of 2 hours and saved a TON of money. The local honda dealership wanted $69.99 plus tax for each car. I spend $72 on supplies and did the equivalent of $210.00 + Tax worth of work.

sam617

Is this the right order to bleed Brembo brakes? Thanks, Sam