IcePak

It's been a good run with my car. I have a 2004 TL with 235k miles on it and the original transmission (listed as Made in Japan on the window sticker). Since buying it 6 years ago I have changed the fluid about every 10k miles and have had the Transmission Filter changed at 125k. (Had a long distance commute before.) The original owner only changed the fluid once.

I need to make a call should I put some more money into the car (tires, compliance bushings, etc.) with a car with 235k miles on the original transmission or buy a new to me lower mileage car? I really don't want to pay for a new transmission in the next 2-3 years and would rather put that potential cash outlay towards a newer car.

My current car is running fine. The service dealer told me he has heard the original transmissions lasting up to 235k, another advisor said 300k.

What do you guys think, count myself lucky that I made it this far with my original transmission or don't worry about it keep changing the fluid and I will be fine up to 300k and beyond? Thanks for the feedback.

Due_Diligence

IMO if the cars runs fine and can get you from point A to point B then I would start saving for a newer car. I'm sure the car could last but there's probably going to be many maintenance type work coming your way.

I hate cars

A transmission has a finite number of shifts before the clutches wear out. Every time it shifts it gets closer to its end number, whatever that may be. If it's not shifting the clutches are not wearing. If the car is mostly freeway driven where you're in 5th gear for many miles, covering long distances with no shifting, the transmission can outlast the rest of the car. Judging by your mileage you do a fair amount of freeway driving. This is one of the reasons some get 80k and some get 300k out of them. If you were to look at the total number of shifts over their lifetime they would probably be similar.

Where the transmission was made isn't the issue. The factory fluid along with a long change interval along with pressure switches that get out of calibration every couple years leads to early failures. Of course, if it practically never shifts it doesn't wear even with these deficiencies.

I'm beginning to experience the other common failure mode, the torque converter clutch failure. Now that mine is doing it, I've figured out the cause and I caught it before it failed. It's a sneaky failure mode for sure and it's temperature/viscosity related.

Scottwax

I have a 7th gen Accord and it has the same transmission. Made it to 157,200 miles on the original automatic. First owner had it serviced regularly, I've done the same. But where I live, the traffic light timing is so awful you basically drive red light to red light. I bet if I still lived in the Phoenix area where the traffic lights are timed to the speed limit, I would have got another 50k miles out of it. I know I get 25-26 mpg city there where its about 21 mpg city here since I don't constantly stop and then accelerate again when I am in Phoenix.

Regular servicing does help extend the life, but once its shifted enough to wear out the clutches, its done.

nokkieny

Sell car for $5k, buy TL with 100k miles for $10k, save $2.5K on rebuild, I would pay $2.5k to knock 135k miles off my car. But, thats assuming the new TLs transmission lasts as long as the one you have now.

I hate cars

That sounds like where I live. One red light at a time. 13mph average, 13mpg average. The Murano got about the same and even the GN was in the same ballpark. Just too much time idle and accelerating. I actually start off in second gear most of the time to avoid the 1-2 shift especially when it's not too hot outside to avoid wear on the most often shifted gear.

On a different note my new '14 328i was only getting 14mpg city thanks to the light timing and I do a lot of easy acceleration and coasting. I finally re-enabled the start stop that I disabled on the drive home from the dealer after a month or so. I didn't like the engine shutting off when I stopped but where I live this is a great feature. My pure city mpg stays at 24-25mpg average over a couple months with me driving. Now that the fiancée has claimed the BMW it's around 18-19mpg pure low speed city which is still excellent considering her punch it and slam on the brakes driving style. I'm off topic but I thought it was interesting how something I looked at as a gimmick (start stop) works so well in driving conditions like ours.

Oh, and I loved Phoenix/Mesa. I only moved because my office shut down.

Timthetoolman

Did you ever change the pressure switches and if so how often? Also, what transmission fluid did you use?

I hate cars

I know where you're coming from but a trasmission that is used on the freeway most of its life where it has far fewer shifts per mile traveled will naturally last several times longer than one used in city driving. The fluid and the switches don't matter unless it's shifting gears. Or said another way, switches and a good fluid reduce wear drastically on the shifts but if it isn't shifting it isn't wearing and the switches don't matter and the fluid becomes more important to hard part wear than clutch wear. It's possible to go 200,000+ miles on original switches if the car is used as a commuter. In the city, they should be replaced every 2 years.

jblessing

So ignoring the transmission, how long would you like to keep the car?

How much would you spend on something new?

Maintenance (not counting the tranny) will start to add up on a 10 year old car. Buying the same car just a couple years newer will probably have similar (but less) costs because of age related maintenance items. Like they said above, if you buy a car with half the miles but city driven, is the tranny going to last that much longer than your current one?

Details?

I hate cars

I can't give advice on how long to keep the car because who knows how it was maintained. I know with mine it's turning 9 this month and I plan to keep it at least another 5 years. I've been so fanatical about maintenance and I've replaced anything that's shown wear including most interior components like the steering wheel, carpet, trim, etc, when I did the timing belt I replaced everything that could be replaced plus all mounts and a ton of small things under the hood that I know even if the transmission goes out I'm not looking at it nickel and diming me to death as the years and miles go on. If it were mine I would keep it for quite a bit longer. If it's like some of the cars I've seen, 10 years would probably be my limit and I would sell it.


I don't want to get too far into the transmission failure thing again. I made the mistake of posting the transmission switch and fluid threads in the past and I've regretted it badly.


My torque converter clutch (TCC) started dragging badly when cold and it goes away when hot. I believe this is the precursor to the full on failures, the ones where the car drives for a while, stops moving, and will move again once it's shut off for a while. Sometimes it felt like it fully locked with the engine dead cold on a 45F morning in second gear. Moving to a much thinner fluid has cured it of this. I haven't looked into which solenoid might be causing the dragging yet.


Usually the TCC is applied with spring pressure and hydraulic pressure is used to release it. The hydraulic release pressure would be the equivalent of your foot pressing on the clutch on a manual transmission. If the transmission can't supply enough hydraulic pressure to release it, it will drag or fully lock. I haven't looked at the TL's setup yet so I'm only assuming it works this way. If the trans was getting old and worn and was unable to supply adequate pressure, it would get worse when hot so I know it's not a wear issue. There's most likely a failing solenoid or a plugged solenoid screen causing the issue. The thin fluid has cured it for now but it's something I need to look into more carefully. It's fully viscosity related, not temperature related and I have my suspicions that the newer thinner DW-1 might not have just been brought out for that .01mpg improvement but possibly Honda knew of this issue already but I'm just guessing.


This isn't an obvious in your face problem. Most would never notice what it's doing. I can see why there have been so many TCC failures and no one knows why. The first couple times I thought I was imagining the clutch locking up but once I started paying closer attention it's most definitely there about 50% of the time. Luckily I caught it dragging so now I know what causes the failure, I just need to stop being lazy and broke and figure out how to fix it before I destroy the clutch and the whole transmission eventually.

aIRpeACE

iTrader: (2)

just change the fluid regularly since your car drives fine and you don't have any problems with the transmission yet. if the tranny lasts that long i think it will be good for another 100k based on your driving style.

IcePak

I will keep changing the fluid at my current schedule but will start thinking about getting a new car later next year.

BTW, I have never changed the pressure switches. My independent Honda mechanic has talked me out of doing it each time I ask. But is passionate about keeping the tranny fluid changed on my car. So far so good,

I hate cars

The pressure switches have been proven beyond a doubt to significantly extend transmission life. Even the dealers won't acknowledge the switches but most mechanics do not know anything about transmissions or even cars for that matter lol. I would do the switches without a doubt. As I said earlier, wear only occurs on the shifts so if you spend a lot of time on the freeway not shifting it doesn't wear much. The switches will significantly reduce wear when it does shift. At your mileage it will feel like a new transmission with switch replacement. I hate that mechanics that know nothing about these things say they don't help instead of keeping an open mind. It's up to you but there's a mountain of proof the switches greatly extend the life of the trams. $100 is considerably cheaper than buying a new car.

cokorote

iTrader: (1)

@IHC

Why in hell do you regret about posting about transmission switch and fluid threads? That thread helped me to learn a lot of stuff as viscosity fluid level and the purpose of the switches. No doubt it helped to extend my tl transmission life considerably.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

2004 TL with 235k on it and original tranny? I'd say you did real good on it! That's exactly what any of us would wish for. I'd say start over while you're ahead. You got the most out of that car. Sure it will keep running but at this point you are most likely to run into all the headaches. Not just tranny. Just things here and there. Navigation glitches, seat heaters not working, etc. etc.

If it's in your budget get something new. Sounds like you do a lot of miles so it's worth running up the odometer up with peace of mind. You are good with maintenance so expect to run another 235k problem free. If the TLX is more than you want to spend, don't hesitate to look at the new Accord. You can load it up and it's one of the greatest values out there. Sitting in new seats, with new technology, more efficiency. I doubt you will look back. Buying used sounds like a value but it's a gamble because the majority of people aren't going to maintain the car like you and you just might be inheriting more problems than your 235k car.

michaelap95

So by the TCC locking up, it essentially causes the car to stall? Sorry I'm not mechanically inclined, but would love to know the tell-tale signs of a transmission that's about to die (besides slipping).

Can you explain the drag?

I hate cars

You're on the right track in that if it were to fully lock in first gear at a low speed it would kill the engine. Luckily it can't apply in first gear but it is supposed to apply in the higher gears under light load to increase mpg and reduce transmission heat buildup.

By dragging, I mean it partially applies, slipping but not locking up all the way. In the beginning, a TCC was on or off. The cellulose type of clutch lining would burn up quickly if there was much slip. Those kind are easy to detect when they lock and unlock. They feel like an extra gear and they're more abrupt. The newer style with its carbon or combination of linings can slip a little more and are more subtle as they lock slowly because apparently drivers don't want to feel a lockup or a shift.

Obviously dragging or slipping this clutch excessively will burn it up and shed lots of clutch material which will plug the internal filter and cause transmission failure. You can run without a TCC, cars did it for decades but the transmission is going to run very hot on the freeway and the stock cooler does not have the capacity to keep it from overheating without the TCC locked on the freeway.

This is why it's all making sense now. We have two problems the May both be related to the switched but most likely just the 3rd gear issue is switch related.

The TCC clutch drags and sheds material. This super heats the fluid in the converter from friction reducing fluid life. The shed material eventually gets caught up in the internal filter and causes restricted flow which. Further reduces internal line pressure and causes more drag, more heat, more wear, etc.. Eventually there's enough material to plug the filter. This is the common failure where we read about the car coming to a stop and just revving but not moving. They turn it off, the material falls back to the dump and it works again for a while.

Next, the clutch completely fails which most drivers Dont notice other than the engine is turning an extra couple hundred rpms than normal on the freeway. If the trip is long enough and there's even a slight incline it will overheat. This is when the car comes to a stop on the freeway and the transmission usually pukes from the vent tube. It usually works fine once it cools down and more fluid is added.

The converter clutch is subtle when it's working well and when it malfunctions and drags its even more subtle. Once it's completely non functional most can't tell any difference other than the higher rpm on the freeway. I have a really good feel for transmissions and I had to pay close attention for 3 mornings in a row before I was sure what was going on. Now I feel like I have the last piece of the puzzle and the failures that weren't from the switches and fluid are now explainable.

If anyone cares, I'm running a mix of Redline lightweight racing and Redline D6 to get a much lower than normal viscosity and its stopped the dragging for now. I'm not suggesting just these fluids but I highly suggest whatever brand you use, it should be a DexVI equivalent. DW-1 is a very thin when cold fluid so it's not a bad idea if yours has this problem and I suspect the converter clutch issue may be part of the reason Honda went with this thinner fluid

I hate cars

I'm glad it helped people such as yourself and I try to remind myself that there are people it probably helps that don't comment. The problem is having to repeat myself literally hundreds of times and that's ok if people are trying to learn but most were too lazy to read. Then there were the ones that said I was full of shit despite offering evidence because they found some snipet of bad info from some people poorly made website believing that anything found on Google is correct vs some guy on Acurazine. It got to the point I stopped looking at the threads and leaving my PMs full.

Anyway, I may continue with the torque converter problems until the usual posters come in that will disagree with anything I say just to disagree. Im glad it's helped you.

michaelap95

Wow.. Thank you. Appreciate the response!

I hate cars

Thanks. I just re-read my post for the first time and it looks like it was written by a 6th grader so I apologize. That's what I get for being lazy and writing it from my phone and not a computer. I confused myself reading it so if there's anything that didn't make sense, feel free to ask. I can go into a lot more detail if anyone wants it but I'm trying to stop writing novels lol.

quantum7

I have 184000 original miles on my transmission. Regular fluid change but original switches. Plan is to keep driving vs new....love no payments.
Good luck.

IcePak

Just to update everyone on my car / transmission status 1 year after my original posting:
* Car now is at 247k miles and transmission is doing well (knock on wood).
* Had the pressure switches changed out about 11 months ago and have had two fluid changes since then. Thanks Mr. I Hate Cars!

Though 2015 was a fairly pricey year for keeping my car. Compliance Bushings, Both Engine Mounts, Upper Control Arm, and new Michelin Pilot Sport A/S3 Tires all costed me about $2.5k. In addition Depreciation wise my car lost about 1.5k in value from Dec 2014 to today Dec 2015 and only added 13k miles to it (per KBB.com). I figure that I am ok for one more year with all the repairs and then bail for a new car.

Last Few Years of My Maint., Repairs & Depreciation
* 2013 - $3,060 ($1,562 repairs & maint.)
* 2014 - $2,028 ($1,328 repairs & maint.)
* 2015 - $4,143 ($2,574 repairs & maint.)
Average cost per month over last 3 years is $256. Not far off from a new car lease payment.

Since I purchased the car 6.5 years ago here are my total costs:
* Depreciation $10,000 (purchased used in 2009)
* Maintenance $12,668
* Total Costs $22,668
* Miles Traveled 162,600
* Cost per Mile $0.14

P1zzaman

iTrader: (1)

I think the last time I changed my pressure switches were about 3 years ago. I am about 120K miles. I may need to do another round of switch changes and change my fluid. I don't normally drive my car that much, mostly on the weekends now.

3gstealth

iTrader: (2)

What transmission fluid are you using?

IcePak

The independent shop who did nearly all my tranny fluid changes used the Acura transmission fluid. They only charged $80 per change.

The first owner of my car didn't do the first tranny fluid change until 80k (have the service records from the local dealer she went to). Needless to say but when I bought the car at 84K miles the fluid condition was in bad shape. The Honda independent mechanic said that if the fluid isn't taken car of in the first few years it gets dirty pretty quickly even after changes.

Summary of my service history. Since I put a ton of miles on it I spent a lot of time tracking it all in excel. The formatting is a little weird but mostly lines up. If some ever wanted to see what costs to expect it might give them insight.

2004 Acura TL Service History
Year Date Mileage Description Cost
6 2/12/09 80,090 Oil Change, Rotate Tires, Transmission Fluid $150
6/4/09 84,422 Car Purchased, 2nd Owner (Paid $13,500)
6/9/09 84,774 B1,2,3 Service (Air Filter, Micron Air Filter, Transmission Fluid, Brake Fluid, Engine Coolant) $412
6/22/09 86,051 Transmission Fluid, Grease Sunroof Track $99
8/8/09 90,941 Oil Change, Transmission Fluid. $83
9/25/09 95,000 New Continental DWS Tires (Tire Rack) $527
10/10/09 96,711 Oil Change, Mount Tires, Alignment, Transmission Fluid $268
12/19/09 103,124 Oil Change, Transmission Fluid. $837
1/23/10 105,585 B4 Timing Belt, Water Pump, Engine Coolant, Spark Plugs $806
3/20/10 110,894 Oil, Transmission Fluid, Valve Adjustment $347
4/10/10 113,000 Side Marker Light, Rear View Mirror Clip $155
5/22/10 116,576 Oil Change, Wiper Inserts $46
7/10/10 121,680 A1,2 Service (Oil Change, Air Filter, Micron Air Filter) $185
8/20/10 125,887 Oil Change $28
10/1/10 130,000 B1,3 Service (Oil Change, Transmission Fluid), Rear Brakes, and Drive Belt $432
11/24/10 135,200 Oil Change, Resurface front rotors $107
8 1/15/11 140,075 Oil Change, Rotate Tires $60 $1,792
3/17/11 144,174 Oil Change, Replaced Rear Brake Calipers $486
5/14/11 149,701 Oil Change $16
5/25/11 150,500 Install Replacement Hood Emblem $56
6/18/11 152,612 Switch Blade Key FOB - Purchase, Cut & Program $162
7/9/11 154,472 Oil Change, Replace Brake Master Cylinder, Brake Fluid $449
9/3/11 160,189 Transmission Fluid & Filter, Wiper Blade Inserts, Oil Change, Air Filter $241
9/6/11 160,258 Replaced - Right Front Upper Control Arm $210
10/22/11 164,450 Oil Change $30
12/19/11 169,526 Oil Change, Transmission Fluid $83
9 2/11/12 174,759 Oil Change $30 $1,835
3/24/12 180,083 Oil Change, Mount Summer Tires, Micron Air Filter $124
5/16/12 183,033 Front Suspension Compliance Bushings $264
6/16/12 185,480 Oil Change, Coolant Change, Transmission Fluid $141
8/4/12 190,218 Oil Change $27
9/21/12 195,160 Oil Change, Wiper Inserts $43
11/3/12 200,079 Oil Change, Front Brake Rotors, Front Brake Pads, Brake Fluid Change $512
12/1/12 203,023 Power Steering Pump, Mount Snow Tires $399
12/21/12 205,003 B1,2,3 Service: Oil Change, Transmission Fluid, Wiper Inserts, Engine Air Filter, AC Filter, Inspect: Suspension, Hoses, Fluids $296
10 2/17/13 209,949 Oil Change $27
3/18/13 212,500 B4 Timing Belt, Water Pump, Engine Coolant, Spark Plugs, Valve Adjustment $1,100
4/20/13 213,583 Oil Change, Acura OEM Battery, Summer Tire Swap $236
7/27/13 216,479 Oil Change $46
8/9/13 216,931 Transmission Fluid $80
11/23/13 219,956 Oil Change, Mount Winter Tires $73
11 3/22/14 223,162 Oil Change, Mount Summer Tires, Hood Supports - DIY $107
6/30/14 226,853 Oil Change, Transmission Fluid, Brake Fluid, Micron Air Filter, Engine Air Filter $265
7/12/14 227,199 Transmission Fluid, Rear Sway Bar & End Links $205
9/20/14 229,857 Oil Change, Marker Light (Rt. Front), License Plate Bolts, Rear Brakes $363
11/15/14 232,156 Oil Change, Mount Winter Tires $72
12/20/14 233,329 Brake Fluid, Transmission Fluid, 3rd & 4th Gear Pressure Switches $316
12 2/14/15 235,243 Oil Change $28 $2,574
3/1/15 235,777 New Michelin Pilot Sport A/S3 Tires (45k warranty) $711
5/23/15 238,724 Oil Change, Alignment, One Lug Nut $155
7/17/15 240,682 Transmission Fluid $60
8/21/15 242,119 Both Compliance Bushings, Oil Change, Engine Air Filter, Transmission Fluid (free) $392
11/2/15 245,300 Oil Change, Engine Coolant Flush, Mount Winter Tires, Left Front Upper Control Arm, Engine Mounts (Front & Right Side), Wiper Blade Inserts $1,227

sopmodm14

my 06 automatic is approaching 100k miles

what are the warning signs of transmission issues ?