200K Miles, ATF change or not?
#1
200K Miles, ATF change or not?
Hi Everybody,
I bought used car with 190K. Right now it s 202K and I love how it s drive. I have made full maintenance after I bought it but only questions for me - what to do with transmission fluid.
I don't know was it changed before me and when. Some mechanic told me that with this high mileage it s not recommended to change AFT at all because can hurt to transmission. And I m scarred of it.
Right now shifting is not smooth. Changing of every gear with small jerks. I try look at this as a normal things for car with so high milage.
What do you say folks? Is it safe to change ATF on this mileage or don't risk and just continue to drive...
P.S. When I changed Timing Belt on 195K, my mechanic told that seems it s the first time this car has timing belt change
I bought used car with 190K. Right now it s 202K and I love how it s drive. I have made full maintenance after I bought it but only questions for me - what to do with transmission fluid.
I don't know was it changed before me and when. Some mechanic told me that with this high mileage it s not recommended to change AFT at all because can hurt to transmission. And I m scarred of it.
Right now shifting is not smooth. Changing of every gear with small jerks. I try look at this as a normal things for car with so high milage.
What do you say folks? Is it safe to change ATF on this mileage or don't risk and just continue to drive...
P.S. When I changed Timing Belt on 195K, my mechanic told that seems it s the first time this car has timing belt change
#2
Have you driven a low mileage example of the 3rd Gen TL before? Just wondering. The only reason I ask is because I bought mine in JAN with 40K miles, and my transmission is harsh as well. It took me awhile to get used to the abrupt shifts and rev matching. Coming from my 2002 RL which shifted like butter (4 speed), this was a big difference. I have also driven my mom's 2012 TL, which is an AT, and hers is similar. Low miles, shifts are harsh, rev matching, etc.
As far as whether to change fluid or not? I am by no means an expert, but I would recommend the following:
Complete a single transmission drain, and save the old fluid. Refill with about 3 quarts of Honda DW-1 ATF (measure the drained volume to match).
If the old fluid is especially dark, has a lot of loose clutch material, or metal shavings visible to the naked eye, I would say leave it alone and hope that the 3 new quarts can improve the lubricating properties of the old fluid . If there is a lot of clutch material in the fluid, it can actually prevent worn out clutch packs from slipping. This is why a 3X3 drain and refill can cause problems in old transmissions (even more so with a flush, which Honda never recommends), and most likely why the mechanic told you not to drain/refill.
If the old fluid is dark pink but appears to be somewhat healthy (not discolored, burnt smelling, no obvious shavings or clutch material) albeit "used up", then you might consider another 1X3 drain/refill (for a total of two). I personally would be hesitant to do any more, maybe just give the first 1X3 a few thousand miles to determine if the changes are positive (or worse), and repeat accordingly. I personally do not have experience with a tranny going bad, so this should be taken with a grain of salt. I am just sharing what I would most likely do in your case.
My RL had 225K when I sold it, and the tranny was still amazing. In that case, I had control over the maintenance from about 105K until I sold it. I always drained/refilled per manufacturer rec's, which I believe was a 3X3 every 30K. Hope this is helpful to you! Definitely do your research, get a second opinion, and hopefully some other Aziner's will come along and provide more concrete results from their own experiences.
As far as whether to change fluid or not? I am by no means an expert, but I would recommend the following:
Complete a single transmission drain, and save the old fluid. Refill with about 3 quarts of Honda DW-1 ATF (measure the drained volume to match).
If the old fluid is especially dark, has a lot of loose clutch material, or metal shavings visible to the naked eye, I would say leave it alone and hope that the 3 new quarts can improve the lubricating properties of the old fluid . If there is a lot of clutch material in the fluid, it can actually prevent worn out clutch packs from slipping. This is why a 3X3 drain and refill can cause problems in old transmissions (even more so with a flush, which Honda never recommends), and most likely why the mechanic told you not to drain/refill.
If the old fluid is dark pink but appears to be somewhat healthy (not discolored, burnt smelling, no obvious shavings or clutch material) albeit "used up", then you might consider another 1X3 drain/refill (for a total of two). I personally would be hesitant to do any more, maybe just give the first 1X3 a few thousand miles to determine if the changes are positive (or worse), and repeat accordingly. I personally do not have experience with a tranny going bad, so this should be taken with a grain of salt. I am just sharing what I would most likely do in your case.
My RL had 225K when I sold it, and the tranny was still amazing. In that case, I had control over the maintenance from about 105K until I sold it. I always drained/refilled per manufacturer rec's, which I believe was a 3X3 every 30K. Hope this is helpful to you! Definitely do your research, get a second opinion, and hopefully some other Aziner's will come along and provide more concrete results from their own experiences.
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bakaryu18 (06-16-2016)
#7
Thank you guys.
So today I visited my mechanic for consultation, he checked a transmission fluid and it smelled burned (I tried as well but personally I m not sure that felt the burn smell). He told it seems that fluid was not changed very long time and he is not sure to change it or not. He had experience when transmission failed after fluid was changed on high mileage transmission. So this is my risk and if I want he can drain and fill it but can not guarantee the result.
Then I decided to go to Acura dealership and ask them. They told me almost the same, but they didn't recommend me flush and just make drain and fill which is usually safe procedure. It was not really expencive procedure, $104 with tax so I decided to make it. Carwash and full diagnostic is included in this price. They changed the fluid and I felt difference immediately. Gear shifting became more smooth, espesially from 1 to 2 gear. So here is my positive experience, hope will be usefull for somebody.
So today I visited my mechanic for consultation, he checked a transmission fluid and it smelled burned (I tried as well but personally I m not sure that felt the burn smell). He told it seems that fluid was not changed very long time and he is not sure to change it or not. He had experience when transmission failed after fluid was changed on high mileage transmission. So this is my risk and if I want he can drain and fill it but can not guarantee the result.
Then I decided to go to Acura dealership and ask them. They told me almost the same, but they didn't recommend me flush and just make drain and fill which is usually safe procedure. It was not really expencive procedure, $104 with tax so I decided to make it. Carwash and full diagnostic is included in this price. They changed the fluid and I felt difference immediately. Gear shifting became more smooth, espesially from 1 to 2 gear. So here is my positive experience, hope will be usefull for somebody.
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#8
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (1)
Thank you guys.
So today I visited my mechanic for consultation, he checked a transmission fluid and it smelled burned (I tried as well but personally I m not sure that felt the burn smell). He told it seems that fluid was not changed very long time and he is not sure to change it or not. He had experience when transmission failed after fluid was changed on high mileage transmission. So this is my risk and if I want he can drain and fill it but can not guarantee the result.
So today I visited my mechanic for consultation, he checked a transmission fluid and it smelled burned (I tried as well but personally I m not sure that felt the burn smell). He told it seems that fluid was not changed very long time and he is not sure to change it or not. He had experience when transmission failed after fluid was changed on high mileage transmission. So this is my risk and if I want he can drain and fill it but can not guarantee the result.
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Postavshik (06-16-2016)
#10
Advanced
#12
Start with the fluid first. You switchers can be still in a good shape
#14
Garage Park / Ikon
Thank you guys.
So today I visited my mechanic for consultation, he checked a transmission fluid and it smelled burned (I tried as well but personally I m not sure that felt the burn smell). He told it seems that fluid was not changed very long time and he is not sure to change it or not. He had experience when transmission failed after fluid was changed on high mileage transmission. So this is my risk and if I want he can drain and fill it but can not guarantee the result.
Then I decided to go to Acura dealership and ask them. They told me almost the same, but they didn't recommend me flush and just make drain and fill which is usually safe procedure. It was not really expencive procedure, $104 with tax so I decided to make it. Carwash and full diagnostic is included in this price. They changed the fluid and I felt difference immediately. Gear shifting became more smooth, espesially from 1 to 2 gear. So here is my positive experience, hope will be usefull for somebody.
So today I visited my mechanic for consultation, he checked a transmission fluid and it smelled burned (I tried as well but personally I m not sure that felt the burn smell). He told it seems that fluid was not changed very long time and he is not sure to change it or not. He had experience when transmission failed after fluid was changed on high mileage transmission. So this is my risk and if I want he can drain and fill it but can not guarantee the result.
Then I decided to go to Acura dealership and ask them. They told me almost the same, but they didn't recommend me flush and just make drain and fill which is usually safe procedure. It was not really expencive procedure, $104 with tax so I decided to make it. Carwash and full diagnostic is included in this price. They changed the fluid and I felt difference immediately. Gear shifting became more smooth, espesially from 1 to 2 gear. So here is my positive experience, hope will be usefull for somebody.
You options are to leave the fluid as is and do not drain and refill. Or draining and refilling, if you go that route, I recommend using OEM honda fluid for this. Do not use any other at this point.
I also recommend that you save up for a transmission rebuild or look for a 2007 base TL transmission to swap in. All Automatic transmission are prone to fail at some point in their life, as the clutch packs need to be replaced / rebuilt. They are a consumable item.
Seems like his mechanic appears to have good intentions.
Last edited by Mykizism; 06-16-2016 at 12:25 PM.
#15
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (1)
QUOTE=Mykizism;15779627]You're mechanic is correct. This is very risky, when changing fluid on such high mileage vehicle. What has happened is the clutch disks are worn and what is allowing you to continue to drive the car is due to the clutch material that is actually in the fluid now instead on the clutch disks. If you drain all the old fluid out you may not have the friction material suspended in the fluid to allow the clutch packs to "grab" each other and drive.
You options are to leave the fluid as is and do not drain and refill. Or draining and refilling, if you go that route, I recommend using OEM honda fluid for this. Do not use any other at this point.
I also recommend that you save up for a transmission rebuild or look for a 2007 base TL transmission to swap in. All Automatic transmission are prone to fail at some point in their life, as the clutch packs need to be replaced / rebuilt. They are a consumable item.
Seems like his mechanic appears to have good intentions.[/QUOTE]
According to you he's correct, but certainly not in the trade. Can't believe anyone would believe that the transmission is
only operating correctly because of the clutch material in the fluid.
If you look at any OEM maintenance schedule, it certainly doesn't state to spot changing the fluid after
what, 100K, 150K,200K?
You options are to leave the fluid as is and do not drain and refill. Or draining and refilling, if you go that route, I recommend using OEM honda fluid for this. Do not use any other at this point.
I also recommend that you save up for a transmission rebuild or look for a 2007 base TL transmission to swap in. All Automatic transmission are prone to fail at some point in their life, as the clutch packs need to be replaced / rebuilt. They are a consumable item.
Seems like his mechanic appears to have good intentions.[/QUOTE]
According to you he's correct, but certainly not in the trade. Can't believe anyone would believe that the transmission is
only operating correctly because of the clutch material in the fluid.
If you look at any OEM maintenance schedule, it certainly doesn't state to spot changing the fluid after
what, 100K, 150K,200K?
Last edited by Turbonut; 06-16-2016 at 03:48 PM.
#16
Senior Moderator
Unfortunately it's very common to hear from mechanics. When my old Accord was going in for some work, I had asked about transmission fluid drain and refill. He said the same thing.. So I didn't. It started shifting roughly and I figured what could hurt . I did a few frail and refills and lo and behold, it shifted better ..
#17
Garage Park / Ikon
Originally Posted by Turbonut
According to you he's correct, but certainly not in the trade. Can't believe anyone would believe that the transmission is
only operating correctly because of the clutch material in the fluid.
If you look at any OEM maintenance schedule, it certainly doesn't state to spot changing the fluid after
what, 100K, 150K,200K?
We also don't know the full history of the car 200k is a lot of miles more than mine when my AT died at 130k. Most of those miles could be highway miles which then there is minimal wear when you are at highway speeds.
Every time an AT shifts from 1-2 / 3-4 wear on the clutch bands is impacted. Once a car in motion and set at a certain speed no wear is induced.
#18
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (1)
While that idea may seem bizarre it is true that if the clutch packs are worn to the point that there no longer any clutch material on the bands. And you performed a 3x3 flush you could end up with a non working transmission. The OP is fortunate to have done a drain a refill in which most cases will be fine. As there is still 2/3 ATF in there with Clutch material suspended in the fluid.
We also don't know the full history of the car 200k is a lot of miles more than mine when my AT died at 130k. Most of those miles could be highway miles which then there is minimal wear when you are at highway speeds.
Every time an AT shifts from 1-2 / 3-4 wear on the clutch bands is impacted. Once a car in motion and set at a certain speed no wear is induced.
We also don't know the full history of the car 200k is a lot of miles more than mine when my AT died at 130k. Most of those miles could be highway miles which then there is minimal wear when you are at highway speeds.
Every time an AT shifts from 1-2 / 3-4 wear on the clutch bands is impacted. Once a car in motion and set at a certain speed no wear is induced.
Unfortunately it's very common to hear from mechanics. When my old Accord was going in for some work, I had asked about transmission fluid drain and refill. He said the same thing.. So I didn't. It started shifting roughly and I figured what could hurt . I did a few frail and refills and lo and behold, it shifted better ..
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csmeance (07-07-2016)
#20
IMO, if you only plan on keeping a vehicle for a few more months, then it might make sense to avoid changing the fluid. Otherwise, however, I'd change it now and accept that the trans may be toward the end of it's current life. The alternative is what? Keep driving it with fluid that you know is abrasive and increasing the rate of wear?
#21
OP: You may want to consider these items below. After that, you should be set to go. For some reason the tranny on these TL shifts are rough like my friend's old 1992 Honda Accord.
The 2008 TLS was my first automatic and I sure did not like the old car shifts. Even the Park to Drive delay annoyed me a bit.
Engine mount
Tranny mount
Control arm
Valve Adjustment
Replace all fluids
Spark Plugs
Alternator
Bushings
The 2008 TLS was my first automatic and I sure did not like the old car shifts. Even the Park to Drive delay annoyed me a bit.
Engine mount
Tranny mount
Control arm
Valve Adjustment
Replace all fluids
Spark Plugs
Alternator
Bushings
#22
Safety Car
iTrader: (8)
I want to chime in again on this topic. After 500 Miles on the fluid change, I would like to go back in time......... Trans is missing shifts, down shifting on the freeway, i can't accelerate without the car just revving. I wish i didn't change it. Looks like i am going to have to retire my TL and part it out!
After first hand experience, i would recommend just running it into the ground! My trans went to :poop:
After first hand experience, i would recommend just running it into the ground! My trans went to :poop:
#23
Advanced
I want to chime in again on this topic. After 500 Miles on the fluid change, I would like to go back in time......... Trans is missing shifts, down shifting on the freeway, i can't accelerate without the car just revving. I wish i didn't change it. Looks like i am going to have to retire my TL and part it out!
After first hand experience, i would recommend just running it into the ground! My trans went to :poop:
After first hand experience, i would recommend just running it into the ground! My trans went to :poop:
#24
Racer
I want to chime in again on this topic. After 500 Miles on the fluid change, I would like to go back in time......... Trans is missing shifts, down shifting on the freeway, i can't accelerate without the car just revving. I wish i didn't change it. Looks like i am going to have to retire my TL and part it out!
After first hand experience, i would recommend just running it into the ground! My trans went to :poop:
After first hand experience, i would recommend just running it into the ground! My trans went to :poop:
BTW... when was the last time you had changed the fluid before this?
#25
Suzuka Master
I hate people making statement "after I do drained and filled the AT start to slip" hell from what I saw most TL owner asking to change the ATF after they notice slipping. I would like to make it clear that if you gonna do drain and fill at highmileage makes sure you do it with OEM Honda ATF instead bring the car to jiffy lube or walmart.
#26
Safety Car
iTrader: (8)
Not being dramatic, just stating what the car is doing. Last time the fluid was changed was 165K. Mainly highway driving and never beaten on. At almost 200K miles why throw $2-3K at it when I can knock that off the top of a newer car with sub 85K miles (07-08 Type S)? Seems like a no brainer to me. While the car would get the trans it could use some other work while it is dropped. TB/WP work since it is nearing that next 100k service mark, new axles since the ones now click during cold temps when turning, I think my Oil pump seal is leaking since there is rundown on the passenger side of the oil pan. It will cost me well over $4,000 to have all this work done at a shop since I don't have the tools or space to do this. Wisconsin winters are very hard on cars and I have a feeling it will be rusting this year since I already had to get some rust repair last year. Only gonna get worse!
I did a 1x3 using Redline D4 in my garage, I don't trust any shop doing work on my car, so it didn't go to wally world or jiffy lube. I have heard to many horror stories.
I did a 1x3 using Redline D4 in my garage, I don't trust any shop doing work on my car, so it didn't go to wally world or jiffy lube. I have heard to many horror stories.
#28
Suzuka Master
I think this is the answer we all been looking for, many member here does not recommend switch over to Redline and for those that switches over they mixed with OEM ATF go over and over before putting in all D4 fluid. There are case that D4 ATF cause flare and slipping so the fluid is the actual problem and yes it involved some 04-06 and 07-08 TL I think Paperboys is one of them, Another member also posted a while ago when Redline got a bad batch and the email he got back from Redline was "Redline ATF was not recommended use for Acura TL".
#29
Senior Moderator
OEM fluid
#30
Garage Park / Ikon
You're mechanic is correct. This is very risky, when changing fluid on such high mileage vehicle. What has happened is the clutch disks are worn and what is allowing you to continue to drive the car is due to the clutch material that is actually in the fluid now instead on the clutch disks. If you drain all the old fluid out you may not have the friction material suspended in the fluid to allow the clutch packs to "grab" each other and drive.
You options are to leave the fluid as is and do not drain and refill. Or draining and refilling, if you go that route, I recommend using OEM honda fluid for this. Do not use any other at this point.
I also recommend that you save up for a transmission rebuild or look for a 2007 base TL transmission to swap in. All Automatic transmission are prone to fail at some point in their life, as the clutch packs need to be replaced / rebuilt. They are a consumable item.
Seems like his mechanic appears to have good intentions.
You options are to leave the fluid as is and do not drain and refill. Or draining and refilling, if you go that route, I recommend using OEM honda fluid for this. Do not use any other at this point.
I also recommend that you save up for a transmission rebuild or look for a 2007 base TL transmission to swap in. All Automatic transmission are prone to fail at some point in their life, as the clutch packs need to be replaced / rebuilt. They are a consumable item.
Seems like his mechanic appears to have good intentions.
While that idea may seem bizarre it is true that if the clutch packs are worn to the point that there no longer any clutch material on the bands. And you performed a 3x3 flush you could end up with a non working transmission. The OP is fortunate to have done a drain a refill in which most cases will be fine. As there is still 2/3 ATF in there with Clutch material suspended in the fluid.
One of the major problems is finding someone who can do a quality job of rebuilding the transmission.
#31
Garage Park / Ikon
I think this is the answer we all been looking for, many member here does not recommend switch over to Redline and for those that switches over they mixed with OEM ATF go over and over before putting in all D4 fluid. There are case that D4 ATF cause flare and slipping so the fluid is the actual problem and yes it involved some 04-06 and 07-08 TL I think Paperboys is one of them, Another member also posted a while ago when Redline got a bad batch and the email he got back from Redline was "Redline ATF was not recommended use for Acura TL".
Regardless, the main problem is that the fluid no longer had the clutch material suspended in the fluid to engage the clutch bands, due to draining it out.
Last edited by Mykizism; 07-18-2016 at 01:11 PM.
#32
Garage Park / Ikon
I hate people making statement "after I do drained and filled the AT start to slip" hell from what I saw most TL owner asking to change the ATF after they notice slipping. I would like to make it clear that if you gonna do drain and fill at highmileage makes sure you do it with OEM Honda ATF instead bring the car to jiffy lube or walmart.
#33
Suzuka Master
#34
Safety Car
iTrader: (8)
Turbonut- Thats the beginning, middle, and end of the story bro. Plain and simple 1x3 at 165K with no issues, and 1x3 at 196K. Bought the car at 142k, previous owner had the fluid changed before I took it in. I checked it to make sure, and it was done. Could have been at the end of its life... Glad it made it to almost 200K miles.
I guess it is all personal opinion on fluid, half the forum says D4 is fantastic and OEM causes failures, while the other half swear by OEM. I took a gamble following the ones that say D4 is the best and lost. I have to do some shopping around but I am leaning towards getting a new car. I am long over due for a new one! I tend to get sick of cars after a year but the TL grew on me and didn't want to let go!
I am assuming the trans is toast but would I be able to revive it with new OEM fluid, a new trans filter for it and 3rd/4th gear pressure switches, or should I save those if I go the rebuild route? I have the old fIuid still, I could dump that back in and see if it fixes it.
I guess it is all personal opinion on fluid, half the forum says D4 is fantastic and OEM causes failures, while the other half swear by OEM. I took a gamble following the ones that say D4 is the best and lost. I have to do some shopping around but I am leaning towards getting a new car. I am long over due for a new one! I tend to get sick of cars after a year but the TL grew on me and didn't want to let go!
I am assuming the trans is toast but would I be able to revive it with new OEM fluid, a new trans filter for it and 3rd/4th gear pressure switches, or should I save those if I go the rebuild route? I have the old fIuid still, I could dump that back in and see if it fixes it.
#35
Senior Moderator
#37
Since you live in the frozen tundra, I would use the money for a car/truck AWD. You may end up spending $6,000. But that $6,000 can go a long way if it last another 10 years. You get your money back if it last at least 20 months. (monthly car payment of $300 a month)
Tranny failing thats $2,000 to have it rebuilt and then you have to fix the oil pump which is another $200-500. Might as well do the Water Pump and timing belt since the oil pump is near the area $600-$1,000. Then new axles $200-500
Then pretty much the 200k maintenance stuff. $800-$2000
Engine mount
Tranny mount
Control arm
Valve Adjustment
Replace all fluids
Spark Plugs
Alternator
Bushings
Tranny failing thats $2,000 to have it rebuilt and then you have to fix the oil pump which is another $200-500. Might as well do the Water Pump and timing belt since the oil pump is near the area $600-$1,000. Then new axles $200-500
Then pretty much the 200k maintenance stuff. $800-$2000
Engine mount
Tranny mount
Control arm
Valve Adjustment
Replace all fluids
Spark Plugs
Alternator
Bushings
Last edited by nothome17; 07-19-2016 at 02:26 PM.
#38
Unfortunately it's very common to hear from mechanics. When my old Accord was going in for some work, I had asked about transmission fluid drain and refill. He said the same thing.. So I didn't. It started shifting roughly and I figured what could hurt . I did a few frail and refills and lo and behold, it shifted better ..
#39
I also put D4 in a my TL a few weeks ago based on recommendations from this website. People saying Redline was the tits. Also, many people on FB groups say Redline is awesome. I did a 3x3 drain and fill and havent had any problems. If you did only a 1x3, that means you really only swapped out 40% or less of the OEM for redline. It seems a little unlikely that this would ruin your transmission. With that being said, I am considering going Amsoil just cause. No one has anything bad to say about Amsoil that Ive heard.
#40
Redlines website lists their D4 ATF as good with Gen 3's.
Red Line Synthetic Oil - Application Guide
Red Line Synthetic Oil - Application Guide