Malibu Flyer

I have followed this thread with much interest. I have had an annoying problem that also might to be related to Bob's issue. Mine isn't nearly as big an issue but a significant delay has been occurring when I shift into reverse. Over the past 6 months or so, when I start the car and shift into reverse my transmission seems to sit and think for around 5 seconds before the transmission engages reverse. I don't remember noticing this until recently. I also have the rough shifting that George and others have experience -- under mild acceleration in the 35 -45 mph range there is a noticeable "juttering' when the transmission changes gears. I have not bothered taking it in but thought I would wait until the next regular service. I have a similar early build to Bob's. The car has 26,500 miles on it. I did complain about the rough shifting when the car was last in the shop and they told me that they did a software update to the tranny which would solve the issue. It did not.

Don't know if the lag when shifting into reverse is at all related but the 5 second delay while the transmission is "thinking" is what made me wonder if it was another manifestation of the same thing Bob is reporting.

I welcome your thoughts and insights.

pgeorg

Malibu Flyer, did the 5 sec engagement delay start before or after the Software Update the Service Department did?

Malibu Flyer

Sometime after the software update.

pgeorg

So it could be from the software update......

Maybe they need to apply the software update again, or maybe there is a newer one that will take care of this issue.

I believe the 4cyl TLX with using the 8 speed DCT had the same problem (or something similar), and it was fixed via a software update....

Maybe a trip to the Service Department is warranted......

TampaRLX-SH

I noticed a delay in shifting with the 2014 'prototype' in March 2014. Most all the early reviews of the SH mention it and excused it as an early build issue. I did not notice it in my 2016 SH and I chalked it up to software tweaking - which all modern trannies are subject to logic programming. The Chrysler tranny issues comes to mind where newly built cars sat unsaleable until the right mix of software updates were applied. And keep in mind the tranny of the SH engages and disengages based on which motor source is propelling the car. That requires interface with the Intelligent Drive Unit (IDU?) that decides when to engage Emotors with or without ICE and also which Emotor propels and which regen.

But I also wonder if there was a change in the processor that runs the software? Perhaps it was not fast enough, could buffer enough or just was strained to the task? It is obvious to me the processor in the infotainment system is better than the 2014-2015 RLXs. Perhaps after the prototypes toured the country the shift lag was determined to be the result of the processor? And new processors were not sourced and into the supply chain until the 2016 SH release?

What concerns me long term, is ANY software driven product tends to perform well out of the box. But after various updates, 'learning' fuzzy logic and interaction with other software driven devices, they become laggy, freeze up and features gain hiccups in performance. As with a Windows computer, a defrag and optimization must be routinely performed to restore performance and clean out the clutter that accumulates. Are we on the brink of such maintenance for our cars? God help us if these cars become as unstable and buggy as the Android OS and OTA upgrade process.

holografique

^ Degraded performance usually has more to do with the vendor/manf adding more features and/or updates that end up taxing the available cpu/ram/disk resources available. Think of the iPhone 4 trying to run iOS 8 or higher vs an iPhone 6 running iOS 8 or higher. Same concept here. Essentially newer updates and revisions of the OS and the application code become too much for the previous hardware to handle. In the case of the the 14-15' model RLXs, the system was clearly undersized from the get go. And whoever QA tested it was clearly not someone who was even remotely tech-savy to have not noticed how poor it performed to report to the Product team. Or maybe it just wasn't QA tested at all...(I digress).

If the info I found online at the Honda OEM online website a couple months ago is correct, the entire NAV system in the RLX is still based on an OEM system from Alpine. Which is more than likely running a non-Windows based operating system (Linux, or some flavor it). If it is, then it's very unlikely it will ever need to be de-fragmented, as the EXT file system used in Linux based systems is much more efficient than FAT/NTFS used in Windows. So it's probably unlikely the systems would ever degrade in performance due to poor disk performance from running the same OS/firmware version for a long period of time. It's would be more the case of them releasing a new OS/firmware trying to add new features that tax the CPU/RAM more than the previous OS/firmware version.

We also know that the improvements to the 16' RLX wasn't a pure software fix (memory leaks removed, more efficient code and/or program routines), otherwise they would just be able to load that latest version on to the NAV system of the 14-15' models and you'd see an instant improvement. And as far I know, there were never any updates released that addressed poor performance, and I had the latest release running on my 14' Advanced right before I turned it in back in June of last year.

The NAV system in my 16' ILX Tech A-Spec is about 5-10x faster than what was in my 14' RLX and responds very much how I remember the NAV in the 16' Sport Hybrid I test drove. So it's definitely clear that somewhere along the way (mid to late 15?) when they started building the 16 models across the brand, they must have upgraded to a better OEM unit from Alpine.

getakey

Agree with your assessment on the Infotainment system and performance.

As for Bob's problem, it seems odd to me that the RPM does not respond at all no matter what the Tranny is trying to figure out what to do. You would think some sort of throttle response would happen. I think this is what Tampa was saying.

TampaRLX-SH

Very good points. Thank You holographique.

The part numbers for the 2014-15 head units is different from the 2016+. So I would agree a hardware improvement was made. This is similar to the 2005 RLs not having rearview cam capability as the 2006+ models, which also was a change to the head unit.

And I agree the systems in the MDX and TLX (after the software upgrade) behave the same and my SH (speed, features, stability).

TampaRLX-SH

Yep. My point is not about fuel delivery. I think it is the electronic throttle is not getting the message to the fuel delivery system. So no matter what you do to the accelerator pedal - fuel delivery remains unchanged. Along with electronic throttle control the SH has the force reactive pedal - which is more software logic piled into the mix.

TacoBello

Sounds like we might be narrowing in on the cause. Bob, it might be worth suggesting or asking the dealership to check out the transmission and anything related to the gas pedal/ throttle/drive-by-wire. Granted, that's still a pretty wide window, but it seems like the fuel system can be crossed off the potential culprits list.

neuronbob

I did not have this prolem until the last three months. Throttle response has always been instantaneous, no delays. The car hasn't had any software updates I'm aware of. I'll have to ask whether this was done during the three weeks the car was out of service last month.

Thanks for all the troubleshooting.

getakey

ok have to ask
did you break your right ankle and it is in a cast?

neuronbob

Roflmao

pgeorg

Could you try the "Sport" button, next time it happens? Curious to see if the mapping change would change this also....

Thanks Bob!

George Knighton

You might recall that my car was taken out of service for an extended period a while ago, and they decided to spend money replacing the entire setup of the VCM rocker arm assemblies.

Just something to think about.

The problem began to evince itself as delayed throttle response and/or transmission shifting problems.

There is no TSB about this, but it is an issue that a dealer can search because there have been enough cases. They're still not sure what's causing it.

It's an involved and expensive solution, replacing the VCM rocker arm assemblies. But if a service manager who's felt the problem in other cars can drive your car, he will probably be able to decide if that is a problem.

I'm not saying that this is even likely, because it's supposed to be a rare problem, but people are beginning to say things that are sounding familiar to me. :-)

George Knighton

If it is the VCM rocker arm assemblies, the car will need to be fully warmed up to evince the problems associated with it.

This can complicate troubleshooting at the dealership because an owner will drive in with a complaint and then the car might sit for a long time before the personnel can get into the car, and there's no pressure because the owner's gone on to work or something.

The car will cool off enough that when they finally drive it, they'll come back and tell the service manager that you've gone crazy. :-)

RLX-Sport Hybrid

The only complaint I can think of is actually something fun in a way. Occasionally from low speeds in the under 20mph range, in the "eco" mode, I can get much more of a hit of acceleration from the EV motors than I am expecting. It almost feels like I am getting rear ended because the torque delivery is so immediate from the EV motors. Not to exaggerate by my last statement, but there are times I can feel like there is Tesla like torque for just a second or two. I have to catch it just right to have that perception. I bet all of you SH owners have experienced what I am trying to describe at one time or another. The "eco" mode driving experience is completely different than the "sport" mode. In many ways I prefer the "eco" mode driving experience more. Just a personal taste. I hope someone can validate my perception with their own experiences.

Spent 8 hours over the weekend polishing up the bird. Looks purdy.

Bulldog2

George, did it fell "jerky" under normal acceleration from a stop? Mine feels like it surges in a jerky fashion. I never hear any abnormal noise coming from the engine compartment. It almost feels like the transmission is slipping.

George Knighton

Yes, basically. That's no guarantee that it's the same problem, but that's how it sort of felt. There would be a sense that the car would take longer to come onto the cam that it should, too, when trying to accelerate briskly.

neuronbob

I'll bring these possibilities to the service folken. I'm waiting to hear from them about when/whether to bring the car back.

They've still got the 2016 SH in silver/black that's been there for about four months + at this point. Looking at it, longingly....

TampaRLX-SH

DO IT! Or be GONE!

getakey

i thought it was get er done and had a completely different image
but liking yours better

neuronbob

I'll be talking to my sales guy about it this week, in tandem with my talking with the service folks.

First time I've been bitten this badly by the early build blues.

mk5

^Is there a defined date range or VIN range on the "early build" SH's to proceed cautiously on?

I ask because I am looking at a SH-AWD and will certainly find out the build date from the door jamb.

neuronbob

If you really think about it, all the 2014 SHs were "early build". There were only 250 produced, after all. They were all built around the same time, in late 2013-early 2014 IIRC. I'll have to jog out to my SH to look at the door sticker to refresh myself on the production date.

And again, don't freak out about the SHs. I still think mine is a one-off issue.

TacoBello

What was Honda's reasoning for not building the SH-AWD in 2015?

neuronbob

There were 2015s sent to Canada, but none in the U.S.

The 2014s were finally delivered to customers in the US in October 2014 (i.e. the 2015 model year). So far as we know, the issue was the late release, and that the VINs, once assigned to 2014 cars, could not be changed to 2015. Of course, we hardly ever know what Honda is actually thinking.

mk5

Gotcha. Wondered about the 2015 issue myself. I am keeping up with your issue with great interest -- my money goes to a software issue of some sort.

Scott in AZ

My personal experience with the 2nd tranche of 2016's >> mine (#379) is near flawless. Good mileage; no bugs in the software; primo performance, smooth and quiet ride. I had some static in the hands-free phone feature but turns out that was in my phone not the car; and after I upgraded iOS and re-loaded the BlueTooth, the hands-free sound was back to normal (no static).

If if I think hard about any issues:

- The subwoofer is under-thumped for what is an otherwise superb audio system. For this kind of coin it should carry deeper than 50-ish Hz. At least it sounds like 50hz to me. Needs to be 10 inch subwoofer and <35 hz rather than 8 inch.
- I wish the one tap "auto-turn-signal" was five flashes instead of three
- I'd appreciate an extra cup holder in the door wells up front, in addition to the two cup holders in the front console and two in the rear console.
- The fake wood looks fake.
- For safety reasons, some of the navigation features are locked out when the car is rolling. This can be annoying. My 2010 MDX does not have this "upgrade" and I'm a little spoiled on it. It would be slick if he lock-out was unlocked when pax seat is occupied.
-

moose66

In complete agreement with your points, In particular the turn signal, fake wood, and navigation comments. Spot on!

Limelight

Bob - is it safe to assume then that the 'early build' SH's are strictly those built in late 2013-early 2014 then? You mentioned that these units were built early, presumably sat in Japan, and then shipped to the US in October 2014 when the 2015 model year would have been out.

Reason I ask is that I'm looking at a 2015 SH with an 09/14 build date. You say not to freak out but I have to be honest, these posts are making me a little nervous about pulling the trigger.

I have to assume this 2015 has all the same parts/components as yours - other than Japan simply had an extra year of experience in building it?? I have one the first 2014 P-AWS VIN's to roll off the assembly line so I know the joy of owning an early build RLX. I will say however that my SH test drive was a blast...

neuronbob

I think you'll be OK. test drive and buy.

holografique

It's been awhile, but I want to say I remember getting at least 30-20Hz response when I tested the range of the system on my 14 Advanced using a sine wave generator app from my iPhone. I was actually using it to try and isolate rattles in the interior, since cranking up the volume with a sub kicking out low freq is the closest you'll get to having the car vibrate on the road while having it in the garage to actually fix the rattles.

Again, it's been awhile, so can't quite remember, but there's plenty of free apps for the iPhone to generate a free-running sine wave and dial in whatever freq you want. The Krell system was another one of the few things they got right in the car that I really enjoyed (and miss). I'm an audio engineer / mix engineer / sound-designer / song-writer / producer by night and I can say the Krell is hands down the best in-car audio system I've had the experience of using.