RLX-Sport Hybrid

It is very possible that this won't work. I was told that all 4 tires have to engage power at the initiation of power delivery or the system might not engage. This is an experiment at best. We will see.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Well boys, I tried to DYNO the car and the electronics did not like it one bit. I don't know if it was the type of DYNO or the car, but the car did not want me doing what I did. Every light on the dash lite up in protest almost immediately. It was a grueling effort to set it up properly, and we tried to make it work. I killed it after one run. We could not get higher than 4th gear in manual sport mode. The DYNO measured 401 ft/lbs of torque @ 1,154 rpm, peaked @ 419 ft/lbs @ 3,999 rpm, showed 349 ft/lbs at 6,493 rpm. HP started at 162 @ 1,154 rpm, 288 @ 4,000, and 389 @ 6,535 rpm. I'm supposed to get the chart emailed to me so I will post when I can. Within the software, it had an option to estimate the crank numbers based on the measured numbers. It suggested that the crank peak HP is 431 and the peak TQ is 473 ft/lbs. I don't know how it came to those figures. Also it verified and cross referenced the measurements in relation to the 4.89sec 0-60, 13.6 @ 106 mph 1/4 mile times that the HP and TQ figures are likely spot on based on the weight of the car including the driver.

neuronbob

Imagine that--a car too complex to dyno. Only Honda could come up with such a beast. Will reserve comment until we see the actual curves but the (apparently uncorrected) results are promising.

I'll have to get off my duff and drive out to Buschur's to give it a shot. They dynoed my RL a few years ago.

hondamore

I suppose the safety-based electronics are so much smarter these days that the car knows that it is not cruising down the road somewhere but rather just spinning it's wheels while stationary and it is just trying to stop you from attempting to accelerate while the wheels are spinning. Seems logical and safe, just frustrating to anyone trying to run a dyno.
I fear the only "dyno run" will have to be accomplished with software and a computer or a good old fashioned pencil and calculator running backwards off performance numbers.
Thanks for the effort RLX-Sport Hybrid!!

RLX-Sport Hybrid

I tried to make it work, but it was a lot of effort and I don't have information that is more reliable than we we already had. Maybe the type of DYNO that has the rollers that the tires drive on is the better version to use. I don't know where I could test it on that version. I think someone else will do it, not me. I'm quite frustrated as I was really looking forward to seeing the results of multiple runs to share. I don't know how to blur my license plate in the pictures when the car was hooked up to the dyno. Once I can figure out how to do that, then I will post them (or give them to Dr. Bob to post them for me).

Sorry guys.

Zoommer

The numbers are very impressive. Reminds of me of the canonball run movie...all the electronics!

neuronbob

Just thankful you gave it a try. We are all in the beta-testing spirit here!

I believe you already have my email, I'm happy to host what images/video you have.

George Knighton

The crank HP is underestimated if you ended up using the kind of dyno that you described to me a while back.

It's a little low for US Net HP, too, but you can set it up any way you want and the owner probably over corrected to be on the safe side. Typical Honda drivetrain losses would put US Net HP more like 447; however, I have to admit that I have never been on a dyno with a Honda DCT transmission of any kind.

Your problems with this were predictable! :-) The load on the wheels caused by the bolt-on devices prevented proper gear changes, and it was further complicated by the front electric motor trying to pre-select a gear while also anticipating what to do with its power when trying to interpret the unusual drag on all four wheels.

I'm not an engineer, but the summary of their explanation is that the load on the wheels is not where the car's designed to take the load, if that makes sense. It's confusing to the car, and their explanation is confusing to stupid old men.

Thanks very much for giving it a go for us and reporting the results!

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Sorry it wasn't more successful. We were all hoping it would work better. I guess it did ok, but just not to my expectations. It is interesting you mentioned a higher potential crank HP number, but I think I saw the screen say 12.49% estimated measured parasitic drag coefficient (or something like that). Does that make any sense to you? Maybe the Dynapack was able to measure a smaller than expected drive train drag based on the electric motors likely having a very small parasitic loss in the transfer of the power? Maybe it was sensitive enough to see that the power delivery is more efficient than we expected? Just a guess. What do you think? Do you think the DCT could have had a +/- effect on the outcome? Or could it be that the electric motor between the DCT and the gas engine affected it? There are so many variables that I doubt we will ever know the absolute scientific results. It was cold in the shop and we had fans blowing air on the front of the car (not that I think that made any difference).

neuronbob

We need to try again on an AWD dyno like that made by Mustang, one in which the tires turn the drums. Even then....it's complicated, as I found with my RL. We got puzzlingly low numbers when I tried that route.

George Knighton

I understand what it means, yes, but I do not understand how he would have arrived at that.

If the DCT is 3% more efficient than a conventional manual transmission with an LSD, I just don't know what.

:-)

timmins

Thank you SH! A promise delivered.

Colin

It could be the same problem that Honda sees when estimating total power. Probably why they quote gas hp and electric motors separately but when combined they don't add up. But maybe the actual work they do adds up and then some.

ptbarnett

If you have a Windows laptop, it's really easy to do it with Paint (which you will find in the Accessories menu).

Once you have opened the image, use the "eraser" tool (the icon looks like the pink eraser) to obliterate whatever you want to remove. Save the file, and you are done.

George Knighton

I think it's going to be a rare occurrence that the ICE and all three electric motors are putting down maximum power at the same time.

If you were Honda and about to put out a 450 US Net HP car, that nobody would be able to buy and which you refused to advertise, while remembering the ITR heritage and the Fast and Furious debacle, you probably wouldn't talk to talk about it very much.

neuronbob

RLX-Sport Hybrid

As I was gassing up tonight a 2011 MB SL550 driver pulled up and started to fill up in front of me. He asked about the SH and we struck up a conversation. Soon after we both departed at the same time. At the first light he joked with me that we should race to 60mph for kicks. The road was clear, and nobody was around, so two dudes hit the gas. I put it in Sport, Brake Hold and M1, then we took off. Shockingly I got him all the way by a car length and a half. At the next light which was a few hundred yards away, he asked me to pull over because he wanted to learn more about the car. Of course I obliged and we talked for a few minutes. He was very impressed. My phone performance app displayed a 4.93 sec to 60 mph which is fractionally slower than I recorded previously. Mind you it was in the rain at the time.

What a cool car. Good night everyone.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Sorry everything was so dirty before shooting the pictures. Here they are from Monday's attempt to dyno the car:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/129921...6/16760222880/

RLX-Sport Hybrid

https://www.flickr.com/photos/129921819@N06/16921732736
https://www.flickr.com/photos/129921819@N06/16921732446
https://www.flickr.com/photos/129921819@N06/16327616533

George Knighton

Thanks for sharing so much. :-)

neuronbob

I'll see if I can get on a local AWD dyno. It's going to be a while before I can do it because I am, honestly, overwhelmed with work (and thankful I have enough work to be overwhelmed with it, thank you), but it will happen.

dturboman

When I dynoed my TL AWD on a Mustang dyno the ECU and tranny went all wonky and it was near impossible to get a full pull. - Acura's dont dyno well.

Does anyone have a Vbox? I'd be interested in seeing some true performance data. I'd be happy to let someone use mine. - I've gotten much data on my RLX FWD

dturboman

The 0-60 time doesn't line up with a 430hp and 470 ft/lb car, even with the weight being 4300lbs+ that should be running a very very low 4 if those numbers were accurate. 1/4 mile is hard to judge as your running only on the 3.5L after 80mph.

The 2014 4450lb E550 4matic makes 400hp and 440ft/lbs, It runs a 4.3 to 60 and runs the 1/4 in 12.8@112mph.

The 2010 4300lb E550 4matic made 382hp and 390 ft/lbs ran a 4.8 to 60

The 420hp (rated) 4.0 turbo in the Audi S6 & S7 usually dynos in the 390-415whp range and 400-410 ft/lbs of torque. The S6 has the same weight to propel as the RLX hybrid... but the S6 runs 0-60 in 3.7 seconds.

I'd say at best the RLX hybrid is equal to a 380-390hp gasoline engine, and the dyno results are very inaccurate due to the electric motors coming in and out of duty as speeds climb.

I'm willing to bet a FWD RLX with sticky rubber could come within 2 tenth of the hybrid in the 1/4 mile.

has any magazine or member done a full performance test on the RLX hybrid? I only see estimated out there.

neuronbob

No. The automotive press doesn't have enough interest in the Sport Hybrid to have done a performance test on it.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

On the other hand, a BMW 550i with 4400lb and 400hp/450lbft does 0-60mph in 4.8s and runs the 1/4 in 13.1s@109mph:

2011 BMW 550i ? Instrumented Test ? Car and Driver

A Infinti M56X with 420hp/417lbft at 4243lb does 0-60mph in 4.9s and 1/4 mile in 13.5s@108mph.

2011 Infiniti M56x - Short Take Road Test - Car Reviews - Car and Driver

The Hyundai Genesis 5.0 at 4600lb with 420hp/383lbft does 0-60mph in 5s and 1/4 mile in 13.6s@105mph

2015 Hyundai Genesis 5.0 Test ? Review ? Car and Driver

The older Genesis 5.0 at 4234lb with 429hp/376lbft does 0-60mph in 5.1s and 1/4 mile in 13.7@103mph

Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0 Sedan Test ? Review ? Car and Driver

Most of the above cars don't have AWD, so may be they are a couple tenths slower to 60mph. But without the AWD losses, their trap speeds should also be higher. When you compare the Genesis numbers to the RLX numbers, the RLX is slightly faster. Yet, the Genesis is rated at 429hp.

hondamore

The RLX Sport Hybrid is unique in that the peak horsepower numbers don't tell the whole story. The instant torque from the electric motors and the high rev boost from the VTEC complement each other making the sum of the two greater than the total hp/torque numbers would suggest. What I'm trying to say is that, even though the total HP is only 377, the complementary nature of the power train's multiple components will result in performance numbers equal to or better than cars with much higher peak HP numbers.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

I agree completely with the argument. After spending many days in Florida (east coast south), I have to say that Acura was not represented at all. I saw 3 MDX, 2 TSX, 3 4gTL, and 1 TLX. No RLX in sight.

After driving the rental 2015 Chrysler 300 with the V6, getting back in my MDX at the airport was refreshing. However getting into the Blackbird SH was like a hot knife through butter awesome. Damn I love that car. How anyone drives it and not fall in love with it is beyond me. Have to take it to dinner tonight with the family. Now if it could stop snowing already..... Florida 80's felt great and a real shock to step out of the airport at JFK to get smacked in the face with the cold.

Shotgun

I'm playing catch-up here! What did you mean by "Blackbird SH" when you said:


"However getting into the Blackbird SH was like a hot knife through butter awesome. Damn I love that car. How anyone drives it and not fall in love with it is beyond me."

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Blackbird - SR71 (baddest Air Force stealth airplane ever designed), SH - RLX Sport Hybrid. Sorry my short hand is such that I reference the Sport Hybrid as an SH.

Make sense now?

Shotgun

Yes, I "suspected" you may have referred to the fastest plane ever made but it simply didn't register that it would be mentioned in an auto forum and when you said "Damn I LOVE THAT CAR" I immediately assumed the was a new model out there somewhere that was named "Blackbird"... :-)

ptbarnett

It just occurred to me today: did you turn off VSA? If that was on, I would think the unsynced wheel spin would get it very confused.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Yes. I tried everything. If you look at the begining of the thread you will see the graph I created with the data that came from the Vbox which was generally very conservative relative to the dyno measurements. Regardless of the exact numbers which we may never really know scientifically, the car hauls ass regardless. Hey I read tonight on Car and Driver that the new Ford GT will be limited to 250 units. That means that the RLX-SH will be just as rare!

miner

I am now looking for a SH Adv in my area - thanks guys.

George Knighton

Honda Challenge has basically given up on monitoring a lot of things and relies on horsepower limits to regulate what cars are in which class.

This means that there will be a portable dyno at all NASA events.

I thought I'd be able to avail myself of these, but after speaking with them they're saying that they know that they cannot get an accurate reading.

This is probably why Honda plays it safe and rates the car for 377 HP when the total of electrics adds up to something like 430 HP. I know from the acceleration times that 430 is unreasonable, but I also know from the acceleration times that 377 is too low.

:-)

RLX3G

I've got a theory on why the RLX is so underrated in terms of the numbers. First, I'm not sure if the SAE does the testing or Acura in-house, either in Japan or USA. But the theory is that perhaps the power of the mechanical engineer, and the variable clutches' distribution of power between the 3 motors, is varying the power at the front and rear(side to side) on different RPMs. This would essentially mean that gas power, and electric power would peak at different RPMs. So with the graph RLX-Sport-Hybrid has posted, we can see the maximum amount of power at a given RPM with all electric and gas power sources combined. Considering the on board computers on the SH didn't like the dyno, these results themselves are most likely underrated. Since the Acura specified results only say peak power @ RPM, you can't see the advantage of the SH-AWD system, as the computer is too advanced to deliver all the power from all the electric sources @ a given RPM(depicted in a dyno graph) in unison with the gas engine. Essentially, the gas engine and electrical motors distributed and peak power at different RPMs. Say if you were actually driving and a rear wheel began to slip, SH would send power to that wheel. This power distribution is not depicted in the Acura ratings or the dyno rating, which immediately makes it inaccurate. My theory is that the power peaks at different RPMs, as the computer actively distributes power according to throttle & steering input and the road condition. So this would mean that it would be impossible to peak the gas and electric power, even remotely, as the Sport Hybrid system wouldn't allow it, unless the power is needed. This would be the answer to why vehicles as mentioned on this thread, have significantly higher HP & torque ratings, and weight a little less than the RLX. Yet the RLX gets a sub 4.9sec 0-60(real world), which is mind blowing. Considering the RLX weighs more, and has 'less power'; that's a lie. The car has more more usable power cause of those electric motors, and the active torque distribution that none of the proclaimed, 'higher power' can come close to. This is my theory behind the RLXs secret electric power, the isn't depicted by the Acura claimed 377hp and 341ft. lbs of torque, there's a lot more power, hidden within.

George Knighton

I can't help wondering about the real world performance figures for the NSX Sport Hybrid and how they're going to end up publishing its HP.

Nobody's floored it so far with the two red tour cars, but everybody's curious. It's not worth anybody's job to do it, but you know they want to do it. :-)

neuronbob

I'm sure "obey all traffic laws" is in their contract, somewhere. Too bad, really. I'd love to see how it does on a drag strip, somewhere.

George Knighton

They have not been obeying all traffic laws.

The command might've sounded more like, "Don't give too much away yet."

RLX3G

Dont' worry, press drives will be soon enough. I feel as if the performance figures on the NSX may be more unacceptable depicted, when taking into account those twin turbos. I have no idea how the turbos operate, weather the power is linear based on throttle input, or? But I feel as if, since the RLX is underrated, I think it would be within reason that the NSX makes around 650BHP & 675+ft.lbs of torque(twin turbos and electric motors are phenomenal for torque, electric motors aiding on the low-end of the power band). My guess: NSX 0-60 <3.0sec.

Malibu Flyer

What might be nice if Acura allowed the auto press a chance to drive the NSX and SH back to back to demonstrate more than one application of the "hybrid" drive train. The we might get some positive press on the RLX-SH.

While I am dreaming, I am still dumbfounded at why Acura has so far been keeping the RLX Sport Hybrid under a peach basket. It just fails to make any sense. Those of us with the car continue to report how wonderful and impressive the electric/gas drive train is, yet Acura doesn't seem to want to publicize it. While Acura seems to ignore the car, the early reports on the 2016 indicate that Acura has invested in developing additional new features. They aren't abandonding the model. No matter if they want it to be a limited production car, why not use it to highlight Acura's cutting edge engineering? In the meantime I just take solace in the fact that I have a Sport Hybrid sitting in my garage. Whatever Acura chooses to do or not do, I can enjoy my ride. That is a whole lot nicer than getting frustrated in trying to make any sense reason out Acura's marketing.