neuronbob

I've read that story from you before, George. That response puzzled me. I probably would have replied, "go look inside, and touch the interior of a Mercedes E-Class and then ask that question again".

This could be a problem. This is the sort of stuff people notice, who buy luxury cars. This person just didn't get it. That attitude comes from somewhere. Is it just that one person? Is it something that comes from her supervisor? Does it come from the top brass at Acura? Does it come from mother Honda? If it's just that person, then maybe she's not the one to run these sessions with customers, as one wouldn't reveal a bias like that if they're just listening to customrs. If it's higher than that, then Acura is in real trouble. We simply don't know.

So, to make it clear, here's what I want from generally from Acura in the next RLX, or Legend, or whatever they decide to call their next flagship sedan, and IF they stay in that market.

1. Legendary Honda/Acura reliability.
2. Legendary Honda user interface simplicity (it used to be legendary, not so much now). If you're gonna stick with two screens, make it so simple my ten-year-old could figure it out.
3. Exterior styling that doesn't make me say "hm?", or makes me say "sleeper", but makes me drool. Bribe/kidnap/steal a designer from Germany or Italy if you have to, to accomplish this. This is your flagship sedan, for God's sake.
4. Luxury features that match up, or nearly match up with the Germans....real wood, no cheap plastic, USB ports in the back seat, etc. Guys, go look at what the Germans are offering, look at what Hyundai is pricing at for incorporating most of those features into the G80 and G90, and they should be able to figure out what to do.
5. For the love of all that is automotively holy, please communicate with people why SH-AWD is just as useful in dry weather as in inclement weather....use mechanical SH-AWD in the base RLX, and keep the Sport Hybrid eSH-AWD in the Advance trim.
6. I know this isn't going to happen, but TTV6 hybrid!
7. Price it appropriately. Here's a hint: no one is buying the RLX unless it's severely discounted. Maybe that means it's priced too high. Better lease deals would be a good start. I will acknowledge that my "me first" lease really sucked price-wise. That will not be happening again.
8. Please keep the driver's oriented suspension tuning (ie kinda like it is in the 2014 SH), but with less noisy shocks.

For 1-6, rinse, lather, repeat for the MDX. That will make the MDX sell more like hotcakes than it already does. Again, realistically MDX is my next lease given some of the lease loyalty deals Acura puts out there, but I'm looking elsewhere as well (Cadillac, Audi, Genesis, and now Volvo in particular). (an aside: Acura leases are great if you lease another.....I'm WAY under in miles--20k of 36k leased for, and I won't be adding much more--and those miles can be rolled into the next Acura lease, damage waiver up to $1500, a few other perks. I'm satisfied with that part of the lease.)

This is just a general list. I know folks from Acura look over our humble forum periodically and I am sure they are working hard on the next RLX design. Make it count, guys, we want you to succeed!

Edit: I added #8 for suspension.

George Knighton

Do I recall correctly that Canadian market or other KC2 elsewhere in the world were delivered with wood trim?

holografique

While use of real-wood (or not) isn't a major factor for me, I'm not going to complain one bit if it's an option available in a trim. The ash wood in the C-class I test drove was gorgeous and can see how it adds a real touch of class and refinement to the interior of any vehicle.

What's more concerning is George's example of the interview when the topic was brought up. There seems to be an arrogance there or some unwillingness to acknowledge what attracts the luxury buyer/market. To me is seems like too much cultural influence from the mothership, Honda. Honda does wonders when it comes to being smart, economical, efficient, value-focused, family friendly, etc. etc. And all that is great, but Honda should be the one to focus on those things, not Acura.

Let Honda be Honda and let Acura be Acura, the luxury brand that took the market by storm. Why they can't get that simple concept down continues to baffle me. They truly are their own worst enemy and can't seem to get out of their own way. And I continue to stand firm that until there is a fundamental change in their mindset, then it will continue to be more of what we've seen since the downward spiral of their glory years...products that are always just shy of being absolutely incredible...well designed and executed in some areas, but overly constrained and "lazy" in others.

I want nothing more than for them to get out of this funk, or haze or whatever you want to call it and just kill it. But they continue to make it hard for me to feel good about pouring my money into a company where their products don't reflect a company willing to put their best into it. Look at that whole "GT" repackaging of the TLX tack-on components. Stuff like that (blunders IMO) just leave a bad taste and just continue to show how out of touch they are.


You should go test drive a 2016/2017 ILX A-spec, they nailed the suspension tuning on it. It's that perfect balance of sporty driver oriented suspension, with just the right amount of compliance to make it handle even the worst of road conditions. I love driving my ILX, it really is a fun car to drive.

RDX10

There are certain laws in place governing the use of things like the open pore wood and I assume that Volvo was even more stringent when it came time to use the open pore wood. I understand where you are coming from, but MANY manufacturers are now using open pore wood so I assume that is a sign that they have found a way to use it without it being a concern anymore. This same idea used to be a concern with normal lacquered wood trims as well.

I agree 100% with the engine concerns. I think the idea of both turbo and supercharging to only get 316hp is complete overkill. Mercedes has a 2.0l (iirc) single turbo engine that makes 360hp. So why the need for overkill? I believe it is because no one would bite if it was only turboed or supercharged because buyers in that market like to have exotic engine setups.

You should have responded with, "have you sat in any top end Kias or GM's lately? They use real wood while your flagship Acura does not". That would have shut her up really quick. It has absolutely nothing to do with safety, real wood has been used on cars for well over a decade and I have never heard of issues except occasional cracking on certain models. I believe it is nothing more than some bean counter winning over logic at Acura HQ. To top it off we got real wood on both the MDX and RLX here in Canada since the 3G MDX and RLX debuted.

Yes you are correct. We get real wood since the beginning and if I recall correctly we even had a couple of wood types/tones that change depending on the interior color you choose.

hondamore

I'm pretty sure that my Canadian Sport Hybrid has the same fake wood as the US version. It looks nice, but I doubt it is real wood. My '05 RL definitely had real wood but didn't look a whole lot different with all the protective layers of polyurethane over top of it.

My two cents is the "real wood" trend was likely started by one manufacturer who didn't give a damn about anything but marketing the car has having real wood and giving ZERO thought to durability and/or safety. Other manufacturers then scrambled to follow suit to allow them to make the same claim in their marketing and sales pitches. This follows a larger trend AWAY from concern about durability and reliability since more and more people are leasing their vehicles and don't really give a damn about what the car looks like after they turn it in at lease end.

RDX10

This is highly personal and subjective. It also goes without saying that everyone has individual things that they attribute to luxury. When you go into luxury homes for example, you expect a certain amount of materials or touches, real wood floors, heavy or thick pile carpeting, real stone finishes...etc. If you were to walk into a new luxury house that had laminate floors and plastiwood counters you would be underwhelmed because you were expecting more exotic finishes.

So IMHO it is necessary to have real wood because I attribute real wood to luxury. Would it stop me from buying a car that I loved knowing it had fake wood? No probably not, but I would expect it. Other people, like yourself, could not care less about real wood and attribute other things to luxury such as say nice leather or quiet ride...etc. It really depends on who you ask to determine what they think means luxury.

wstr75

I like plastic that looks like wood. Why? Because injection molded parts have exact dimensions and exact thermal shrinkage/expansion characteristics part to part whereas wood is a more variable material. Just my QC and manufacturing background speaking here. Additionally, with manufacturers paring every possible ounce/gram of weight, hollow backed injection molded parts "should" be lighter than wood parts. Lastly, while I'm not sure it is required for automobile interiors, injection molded parts can be made from UL 94 5VA resin, which, ensures no flame propagation in those parts in the event of a crash with flames in the interior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UL_94

RDX10

But wood trim is not truly made out of a solid piece of wood unless it is on really really high end cars. Most wood trims are just a piece of plastic with wood veneer on the front. They also know the shrinkage/expansion characteristics of these heavily modified trim pieces just like they do on the plastiwood. In both cases both materials can be prone to crack, it just depends where the piece is being placed. Also because they are a veneer, they weight the same as their hollowed back counterparts.

dwboston

Fwiw, I just read an interview with Audi's design chief and apparently they are going away from buttons, knobs, and rotary dials completely for the next-gen A8. They're going with a 2-screen setup with haptic feedback, that will be usable while keeping eyes on the road (he mentioned gesture controls as well). Apparently Acura was ahead of its time again and the other brands are co-opting. Hopefully, the usability of the 2-screen system improves. There's a picture of it in the concept car at the bottom of the story.

Audi's Q8 SUV predicts a wilder future | Top Gear

sooththetruth

The open pore wood of the Genesis 80 and 90 made me gasp in appreciation. I like things to last, and fit well, but sometimes there is a value to beauty that is more than just the cost.

"A cynic knows the cost of everything, and the value of nothing."
Oscar Wilde

People vote with their feet. I appreciate the different points of view, but I'd rather the "rice grained" aluminum (Infiniti) or even piano black plastic (Porsche) over the fake wood. The Formica cabinets in 1970's homes is holding up beautifully, but they're not beautiful. I am sure no realtor can, with a straight face, point out the "long lasting Formica cabinets" as a perk of buying the home now. Then, there's Swedish Pergo floors. My past Phaeton sure had beautiful chestnut wood, and it had held up very well after 5 years. The leather was gorgeous, too, and looked new. Too bad those were the only parts of the car that didn't need work every month.

RDX10

You had a phaeton?!?? Man that is one extremely under-rated car. I absolutely love the phaeton. I would definitely buy one (dirt cheap right now) but SUPER expensive to maintain, it is a bentley after all. I would say closer to a bentley than the A8.

George Knighton

Piech's Folly.

wstr75

Piech's 'folly' | Automotive Industry Blog | just-auto

sooththetruth

The VW dealerships couldn't align the tires, and I ran through a set of Michelin MXV's in 22,000 miles. Required a specially designed machine for alignment, and VW mandated the machine for dealers that sold the Phaeton around the world, except in the USA. The closest to me was in Toronto. The front brakes (only the front) had to be replaced after 80K miles: $2200. The car had a massive blind spot, and US law prevented them from selling the car with the asymmetric mirrors on the driver side that were used in the rest of the world. The sheer size and bulk of the car made it more difficult to drive around town, and the blind spot drove me crazy, but on the highway it was a dream, except for the constant misalignment that the dealership couldn't fix, of course, that led to constant corrections while cruising. The worst feature? There were no soft close doors on the 2004, and when a door was closed while another was open, the sound was startlingly loud, and passengers would look at me with alarm that something had broken. Well, the wires to the subwoofers in the door WERE breaking with the door closing, and the dealership fixed them once, then kept telling me nothing was wrong. (they were supposed to be warrantied). They added soft-close (mechanical latching) in 2005 and 2006.

Instead of Piech's folly, I would rather call Piech the "Don Quixote of Volkswagen". The intentions were good. I won't bring this up again; I am almost through with therapy.

RDX10

I owned 3 Touaregs...the Touareg too was conceived at a time when Piech wanted to move VW upmarket. This of course meant you were driving a Porsche Cayenne with VW packaging and this meant Porsche repair costs. So while the material quality really was second to none (in fact the Touareg was nicer inside than a cayenne and Q7 materials wise) it also meant you needed to mortgage your house to repair some VERY common issues. I bet you had to change the valve body on your phaeton as well correct?

Ah Piech! A time where VW was looked at as not being the filth of the automotive world. I still love VW and VAG, but they have a very uphill battle to even get back to mainstream level in terms of acceptance.

RDX10

I owned 3 Touaregs...the Touareg too was conceived at a time when Piech wanted to move VW upmarket. This of course meant you were driving a Porsche Cayenne with VW packaging and this meant Porsche repair costs. So while the material quality really was second to none (in fact the Touareg was nicer inside than a cayenne and Q7 materials wise) it also meant you needed to mortgage your house to repair some VERY common issues. I bet you had to change the valve body on your phaeton as well correct?

Ah Piech! A time where VW was looked at as not being the filth of the automotive world. I still love VW and VAG, but they have a very uphill battle to even get back to mainstream level in terms of acceptance.

Well anyways, I appologize for the thread derailment. I happen to love the RLX and can't wait for it to get a bark to match it's bite.

TSX69

Spy photos have leaked of the TLX MMC & this may give us an idea of what the new grille will look like on the RLX. Not really a fan but to be fair, it is an MMC so the diamond pentagon was kinda shoehorned in there like an afterthought ... a FMC will give a better idea of how it looks.



2018 Acura TLX Spied ? Future Cars ? News ? Car and Driver

2018 Acura TLX Spied: Goodbye Beak, Hello Diamond Pentagon

Revised grille, sport-oriented A-Spec version coming next year.

• JAN 2017
• BY JOSEPH CAPPARELLA
• PHOTOGRAPHY BY BRIAN WILLIAMS

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What It Is: An updated version of Acura’s mid-size TLX sedan with a new face. Like the MDX SUV before it, the TLX will abandon the Acura beak in favor of the signature “diamond pentagon” grille first shown on the Acura Precision concept. Along with the facelift, the TLX will gain a performance-oriented A-Spec package, as evidenced by the white car pictured in spy photos with a more aggressive body kit, larger wheels and tires, and black accents. We also suspect that Acura may add a hybrid to the TLX lineup, possibly using a version of the Honda Accord hybrid’s setup.

Why It Matters: Although it’s pleasant to drive in both 4-cylinder and V-6 forms, the TLX was in need of more visual drama, and that’s what the A-Spec trim looks to bring. Sadly, if the smaller ILX’s A-Spec treatment is any indication—it includes flashier wheels, a body kit, a rear spoiler, and faux suede trim for the interior—the package won’t go much beyond the appearance upgrades.



Platform: Since this is just a mid-cycle update, don’t expect any significant changes to the TLX’s Accord-based chassis, only slight tuning adjustments.

Powertrain: The base front-wheel-drive TLX is likely to carry over its powertrain combo of a 206-hp 2.4-liter inline 4-cylinder mated to an eight-speed dual-clutch automatic transmission. A 3.5-liter V-6 will remain optional, paired with either front-wheel drive, front-wheel drive with rear-wheel steering, or Acura’s torque-vectoring all-wheel-drive setup called SH-AWD. All V-6 models currently use a ZF-sourced 9-speed automatic, but it’s possible that the updated TLX could use Honda’s 10-speed unit that is making its debut in the 2018 Odyssey. If Acura does deem the TLX A-Spec model worthy of any mechanical upgrades, we could see the V-6’s output rise to 300 horsepower or so, compared with the current car’s 290-hp output. Expect the potential TLX hybrid to use a version of the Honda Accord’s hybrid setup that makes a maximum of 212 horsepower and achieves an EPA combined rating of 48 mpg.



Competition: Audi A4, Buick Regal, Infiniti Q50, Lincoln MKZ, Volvo S60

Estimated Arrival and Price: The undisguised TLX sedans pictured here appear to be part of some sort of photo shoot, so we probably won’t have to wait very long for the car’s official debut. Look for it at the Chicago auto show in a few weeks, before it goes on sale sometime later this year. Pricing should say within the same range as the current car, which starts at $32,950 for the base 4-cylinder model and tops out at $45,850 for the fully loaded V-6 SH-AWD version. The anticipated TLX hybrid will likely slot in between the 4-cylinder and V-6 models, and the A-Spec package should add a few thousand dollars to the sticker.

holografique

Problem is, "being ahead of it's time" doesn't always equate to being successful. Ultimately it comes back to how well that idea is executed. Look at the Apple Newton, waaay ahead of it's time, poorly executed, 15+ years later to become properly executed with the iPhone, leading to massive global success.

I personally don't have a problem with touch-screens. Between my iPhone, iPad(s) and my Surface Pro, touch-screens have become second nature for me and has opened doors for me in the way I interact and engage with others. I did a presentation/working session the other day for a room full of engineers/architects on a large format LED touchscreen, and it was amazing how I was able to virtually "whiteboard" along with my presentation slides to augment and aid in my conversations, and then save all of it as notes for follow-up! Try that with your traditional white-board/dry-erase markers (short of taking tons of pictures with your iPhone).

Overall I've been able to work with the Acura dual-screen NAV system, the problem for me comes back to execution: out-dated UI elements/graphics, overly-complicated menu diving (too many menus) and under-performing compute resources to run the system properly. And while the ILX NAV system is a massive improvement over my prior RLX, it's still not what it should be when compared to the competition. For me, the best Infotainment/Nav implementation to date is the Audi MMI / Virtual Cockpit. They've really nailed not only the UI, but the overall UX (user-experience) design as well.

dwboston

You don't have to convince me, I should have put "ahead of its time" in quotes as it was a back-handed compliment.

I had a 2006 CMBS/PAX RL and was looking to upgrade in late 2012/early 2013. The Sport Hybrid wasn't announced yet (and I wouldn't buy the first model year with so much tech after owning a 2005 RL), but I could have waited for the second model year of it. I went and sat in a PAWS-version RLX at the dealer and played around with the infotainment system and wasn't a fan, though I could have dealt with it if the AWD version had been available sooner (like a year sooner). I ended up buying a CPO 2012 Audi A6, and now I'm moving on to a 2015 A8, so I'm with you on the Audi MMI. Much more intuitive interface overall, though the NAV system isn't. I'm excited to see where Audi takes it based on the versions that have already rolled out to the Q7 and A4, and the concept cars.

robscharp05

Went by this picture earlier today, looks good, but not sure where its from. Main point is I have no problem with the current RLX, it looks good inside and out...but...We all know that this RLX is the worse selling of the mid-size luxury sedans, as well as quite possibly the worse selling mainstream product from Acura. I am very curious to hear what you guys have to say about a possible mid-model update, or even a replacement in the near future. I guarantee what ever it is going to be it will sell like the current RLX. I would love to see them release a true flagship full size, but it most likely won't happen.

getakey

there's a huge thread on this topic
I believe that is a photoshopped pic posted in that thread

https://acurazine.com/forums/third-g...920348/page15/

neuronbob

Thread merged.

kurtatx

That certainly looks like the best depiction of the new grille, however I think the RLX in and of itself should be replaced with something more athletic, with standard SHAWD on the base and a more fun and dynamic ride.

neuronbob

Episodic thread title change complete.

Rez

guess i gotta see one up close and personal, but for right now, eeewwwww i think the grille is too wide and not proportionate, and it looks hideous on the red but a lil better in white..

neuronbob

I'm happier that the Beak is gone. This looks far better than the Beak. Anything looks far better than the Beak. All hail, the Beak is gone, never to return!

holografique

I think the problem with these pics is the aspect ratio is dramatically distorted by the camera zoom. You can tell by how much larger the rear wheels look vs the front wheels (almost like the NSX), when we all know that's definitely NOT going to be the case. As a result it's making the proportions look really bad with the front end seemingly much smaller, and significantly lower than the rear of the car. All you have to do is look at the side-profile pic of the white to see that it will have much better proportions.

Overall, I'm still on the fence and just gonna wait till we see official pics/marketing info, or better yet...a real one in person.

TampaRLX-SH

Yes, to me proportions are important. The Acura logo is large, but understandably it contains the radar transmitter. I cannot say I like it more than the current grille. I cannot say I like it less. If the RLX version drops the double stacked jewel eyes, I think it makes the RLX less unique. I never liked the power phlegm grille, but the evolved shield of the current models is OK by me. I like they way the shield covers the radar. Cars where the radar is obvious in the grille, generally do not appeal to me (the Genesis G80 comes to mind). The Acura over-sized A is similar to the large MB grille logo. Perhaps they should offer an illuminated version like MB as the size is just not big enough to draw attention to the brand.

kurtatx

Really good stuff. I think the key is the grille has to flow with the overall body lines of the car. I think the final version of this grille has more potential than the beak ever did, but Acura just isn't there yet.

R.L. ina TL

I just hope they don't change the grille proportions on the 2018 RLX and it fits nicely on any previous model years.

TacoBello

It will likely be an all new front bumper. The shape of the current grille compared to th 2018 grille are completely different. You can't just swap the grille, unless you get the bumper too.

TSX69

Rumors from Japan state that it will go in production Sept 2017.

Changes... Exterior,Front Face(Precision Concept looking) and better Interior Quality

Power-train.....same but most likely improvements with Hybrid System because they state it will be the fastest AWD Sedan in Japan.

So it looks like they are not going to let it rot until FMC in two years.

neuronbob

Please let this rumor be true please let it be true pleaseopleaseoplease

TSX69

I have mixed feelings on this. On the 1 hand, I am glad that they are putting some effort into the RLX, albeit a little late.

However, I feel that using those resources towards the FMC may have been a better plan. MMCs rarely increase sales significantly so I would be surprised if they could get the RLX back above 200 units per month. The 2009 RL refresh was pretty extensive appearance wise & I felt that ILX refresh did a lot to improve shortcomings but neither did much sales wise.

Also, a 5th year refresh suggests that the RLX will be on @ least a 6 year lifespan. I doubt that Acura would invest in a MMC for a model's final year.

Guessing the improved interior means real wood like the MDX MMC?

George Knighton

I basically agree with your assessment and I suspect it will be the 6th generation before I buy another.

If there are significant changes to power delivery and efficiency of operation as you hinted, then maybe 5th-plus is a possibility. But with the 2020 just a couple of years after that, they would have to be significant improvements indeed.

For me, anyway.

And all of this supposition assumes that we do not have a 50% Trump tariff on Saiyama cars.

:-)

George Knighton

And remember that they made significant improvements to the USDM ZDX in the final year.

Sometimes it looks like making money is a secondary consideration at Honda.

neuronbob

While true, TSX69, any progress is a good thing with this car.

"Fastest AWD sedan in Japan" is what really got my attention, but then again, I'm a leadfoot, so there's that.

neuronbob

Precision concept grille and maybe better tails, hard to tell.

Story:
https://www.carnichiwa.com/car-news/...on-the-street/

Video:

Hat tip to the TOV.

TampaRLX-SH

Looks like they are returning to exposed exhaust as did the MDX. Not sure if that translates to the SH....seems most hybrids hide the exhaust.

neuronbob

We have a hidden quad exhaust. That exhaust should be shown to the world (with some appropriate polished tips, of course). The Hybrid is a PERFORMANCE hybrid, so more reason to show exhaust tips IMHO.