Just for you Stogie: What Hard Drive Should I Buy?
#81
Sanest Florida Man
Thread Starter
If all 3TB Barracudas are like that then that's some class action level fuck up
The following users liked this post:
mcflyguy24 (06-15-2016)
#82
Race Director
1.5 years so far on my 12TB Raid5 setup. The 4 WD Reds (4TB each) have been flawless so far and I still have another 3.5 years of full replacement warrant
#83
Needs more Lemon Pledge
One of my Seagate external HDDs that I use for backups just started having some problems with bad sectors. It's a 3TB model that is still under warranty. I am sure it has a 3TB barracuda drive inside. Currently running Seatools "Long Generic" test that will attempt to repair the bad sectors. If not, I will wipe it and ship it back to Seagate for replacement.
#84
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Just failed the repair. RMA it is...
#85
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Just received the refurb drive. Running tests on it now. It has the same troublesome 3TB barracuda drive inside...
#86
Sweet!
iTrader: (1)
My worst HD experience was with Maxtor drives (before they were acquired by Seagate). I had many many Maxtor drives die within weeks of being unboxed. They were then nicknamed Crapstor and never purchased again.
These days I buy Seagate Constellation series drives (usually SAS) and have had good luck with those. I run a 4TB version (can't remember the model exactly) in most of our servers at work (RAID 10) and have had good luck with them.
*shrug*
These days I buy Seagate Constellation series drives (usually SAS) and have had good luck with those. I run a 4TB version (can't remember the model exactly) in most of our servers at work (RAID 10) and have had good luck with them.
*shrug*
#87
Needs more Lemon Pledge
The Constellation droves are awesome, but pricey!
My 3tb is now in service as a backup drive...
My 3tb is now in service as a backup drive...
#88
Sanest Florida Man
Thread Starter
#89
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Ewwww.. It's IDE!
#90
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Just had a second Barracuda class drive in an external enclosure fail.
This was a 4TB Seagate External USB3.0 'BackupPlus". I had a 3TB (the dreaded 3TB Barracuda) external (same model as the 4TB) fail previously and was replaced under warranty, but this 4TB is just over 3 years old. It was used for backups, so no huge loss, but if I have any Barracuda drives, they will get replaced at the three year mark on the dot from here on out.
This was a 4TB Seagate External USB3.0 'BackupPlus". I had a 3TB (the dreaded 3TB Barracuda) external (same model as the 4TB) fail previously and was replaced under warranty, but this 4TB is just over 3 years old. It was used for backups, so no huge loss, but if I have any Barracuda drives, they will get replaced at the three year mark on the dot from here on out.
#91
Sanest Florida Man
Thread Starter
Oh I thought for sure you'd be posting this...
SSD reliability in the real world: Google's experience | ZDNet
That last bolded bit is important. I've seen it a couple times so far. I've had two clients SSDs just fail and when they failed that data was not coming back.
With normal hard drives you almost always get signs of an impending drive failure from a slow PC, program crashes or BSODs, clicking noises, or whining bearings. Not necessarily true with an SSD. It's been a while but I think one of my Intel m25 SSDs died on me one day out of nowhere, but the Samsung evo SSD I have now is giving me error messages in event viewer and is hanging up often when I boot up. That's what got me to finally upgrade me PC.
In my limited experience with SSD failure and extensive experience with hard drive failure it seems that the chance of data loss from a failed SSD is much higher than a normal drive but an SSD is less likely to fail. It seems Google agrees with me.
SSD reliability in the real world: Google's experience | ZDNet
SSDs are a new phenomenon in the datacenter. We have theories about how they should perform, but until now, little data. That's just changed.
The FAST 2016 paper Flash Reliability in Production: The Expected and the Unexpected, (the paper is not available online until Friday) by Professor Bianca Schroeder of the University of Toronto, and Raghav Lagisetty and Arif Merchant of Google, covers:
KEY CONCLUSIONS
THE STORAGE BITS TAKE
Two standout conclusions from the study. First, that MLC drives are as reliable as the more costly SLC "enteprise" drives. This mirrors hard drive experience, where consumer SATA drives have been found to be as reliable as expensive SAS and Fibre Channel drives.
One of the major reasons that "enterprise" SSDs are more expensive is due to greater over-provisioning. SSDs are over-provisioned for two main reasons: to allow for ample bad block replacement caused by flash wearout; and, to ensure that garbage collection does not cause write slowdowns.
The paper's second major conclusion, that age, not use, correlates with increasing error rates, means that over-provisioning for fear of flash wearout is not needed. None of the drives in the study came anywhere near their write limits, even the 3,000 writes specified for the MLC drives.
But it isn't all good news. SSD UBER rates are higher than disk rates, which means that backing up SSDs is even more important than it is with disks. The SSD is less likely to fail during its normal life, but more likely to lose data.
The FAST 2016 paper Flash Reliability in Production: The Expected and the Unexpected, (the paper is not available online until Friday) by Professor Bianca Schroeder of the University of Toronto, and Raghav Lagisetty and Arif Merchant of Google, covers:
- Millions of drive days over 6 years
- 10 different drive models
- 3 different flash types: MLC, eMLC and SLC
- Enterprise and consumer drives
KEY CONCLUSIONS
- Ignore Uncorrectable Bit Error Rate (UBER) specs. A meaningless number.
- Good news: Raw Bit Error Rate (RBER) increases slower than expected from wearout and is not correlated with UBER or other failures.
- High-end SLC drives are no more reliable that MLC drives.
- Bad news: SSDs fail at a lower rate than disks, but UBER rate is higher (see below for what this means).
- SSD age, not usage, affects reliability.
- Bad blocks in new SSDs are common, and drives with a large number of bad blocks are much more likely to lose hundreds of other blocks, most likely due to die or chip failure.
- 30-80 percent of SSDs develop at least one bad block and 2-7 percent develop at least one bad chip in the first four years of deployment.
THE STORAGE BITS TAKE
Two standout conclusions from the study. First, that MLC drives are as reliable as the more costly SLC "enteprise" drives. This mirrors hard drive experience, where consumer SATA drives have been found to be as reliable as expensive SAS and Fibre Channel drives.
One of the major reasons that "enterprise" SSDs are more expensive is due to greater over-provisioning. SSDs are over-provisioned for two main reasons: to allow for ample bad block replacement caused by flash wearout; and, to ensure that garbage collection does not cause write slowdowns.
The paper's second major conclusion, that age, not use, correlates with increasing error rates, means that over-provisioning for fear of flash wearout is not needed. None of the drives in the study came anywhere near their write limits, even the 3,000 writes specified for the MLC drives.
But it isn't all good news. SSD UBER rates are higher than disk rates, which means that backing up SSDs is even more important than it is with disks. The SSD is less likely to fail during its normal life, but more likely to lose data.
With normal hard drives you almost always get signs of an impending drive failure from a slow PC, program crashes or BSODs, clicking noises, or whining bearings. Not necessarily true with an SSD. It's been a while but I think one of my Intel m25 SSDs died on me one day out of nowhere, but the Samsung evo SSD I have now is giving me error messages in event viewer and is hanging up often when I boot up. That's what got me to finally upgrade me PC.
In my limited experience with SSD failure and extensive experience with hard drive failure it seems that the chance of data loss from a failed SSD is much higher than a normal drive but an SSD is less likely to fail. It seems Google agrees with me.
#92
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Interesting
#93
Race Director
Hard Disk Sentinel Pro shows my OCZ Agility3 still at 100% health. 835 days, 4 hours of power on time. Estimated lifetime remaining: >989 days power on time.
#94
Team Owner
Bad news: SSDs fail at a lower rate than disks, but UBER rate is higher
Ignore Uncorrectable Bit Error Rate (UBER) specs. A meaningless number.
Ignore Uncorrectable Bit Error Rate (UBER) specs. A meaningless number.
#95
Sanest Florida Man
Thread Starter
The published spec is meaningless. UBER is a real thing to be concerned about but the metric used to quantify it is BS.
further down in the paper
The full paper is here: https://www.usenix.org/sites/default...roceedings.pdf
We study a wide
range of reliability characteristics and come to a number
of unexpected conclusions. For example, raw bit error
rates (RBER) grow at a much slower rate with wear-out
than the exponential rate commonly assumed and, more
importantly, they are not predictive of uncorrectable errors
or other error modes. The widely used metric UBER
(uncorrectable bit error rate) is not a meaningful metric,
since we see no correlation between the number of reads
and the number of uncorrectable errors. We see no evidence
that higher-end SLC drives are more reliable than
MLC drives within typical drive lifetimes. Comparing
with traditional hard disk drives, flash drives have a significantly
lower replacement rate in the field, however,
they have a higher rate of uncorrectable errors.
range of reliability characteristics and come to a number
of unexpected conclusions. For example, raw bit error
rates (RBER) grow at a much slower rate with wear-out
than the exponential rate commonly assumed and, more
importantly, they are not predictive of uncorrectable errors
or other error modes. The widely used metric UBER
(uncorrectable bit error rate) is not a meaningful metric,
since we see no correlation between the number of reads
and the number of uncorrectable errors. We see no evidence
that higher-end SLC drives are more reliable than
MLC drives within typical drive lifetimes. Comparing
with traditional hard disk drives, flash drives have a significantly
lower replacement rate in the field, however,
they have a higher rate of uncorrectable errors.
5.1 Why UBER is meaningless
The standard metric used to report uncorrectable errors
is UBER, i.e. the number of uncorrectable bit errors per
total number of bits read. This metric makes the implicit
assumption that the number of uncorrectable errors
is in some way tied to the number of bits read, and hence
should be normalized by this number.
This assumption makes sense for correctable errors,
where we find that the number of errors observed in a
given month is strongly correlated with the number of
reads in the same time period (Spearman correlation coefficient
larger than 0.9). The reason for this strong correlation
is that one corrupted bit, as long as it is correctable
by ECC, will continue to increase the error count
with every read that accesses it, since the value of the
cell holding the corrupted bit is not immediately corrected
upon detection of the error (drives only periodically
rewrite pages with corrupted bits).
The same assumption does not hold for uncorrectable
errors. An uncorrectable error will remove the affected
block from further usage, so once encountered it will
not continue to contribute to error counts in the future.
To formally validate this intuition, we used a variety of
metrics to measure the relationship between the number
of reads in a given drive month and the number
of uncorrectable errors in the same time period, including
different correlation coefficients (Pearson, Spearman,
Kendall) as well as visual inspection. In addition to the
number of uncorrectable errors, we also looked at the incidence
of uncorrectable errors (e.g. the probability that
a drive will have at least one within a certain time period)
and their correlation with read operations.
We find no evidence for a correlation between the
number of reads and the number of uncorrectable errors.
The correlation coefficients are below 0.02 for all drive
models, and graphical inspection shows no higher UE
counts when there are more read operations.
As we will see in Section 5.4, also write and erase operations
are uncorrelated with uncorrectable errors, so an
alternative definition of UBER, which would normalize
by write or erase operations instead of read operations,
would not be any more meaningful either.
We therefore conclude that UBER is not a meaningful
metric, except maybe in controlled environments where
the number of read operations is set by the experimenter.
If used as a metric in the field, UBER will artificially
decrease the error rates for drives with high read count
and artificially inflate the rates for drives with low read
counts, as UEs occur independently of the number of
reads.
The standard metric used to report uncorrectable errors
is UBER, i.e. the number of uncorrectable bit errors per
total number of bits read. This metric makes the implicit
assumption that the number of uncorrectable errors
is in some way tied to the number of bits read, and hence
should be normalized by this number.
This assumption makes sense for correctable errors,
where we find that the number of errors observed in a
given month is strongly correlated with the number of
reads in the same time period (Spearman correlation coefficient
larger than 0.9). The reason for this strong correlation
is that one corrupted bit, as long as it is correctable
by ECC, will continue to increase the error count
with every read that accesses it, since the value of the
cell holding the corrupted bit is not immediately corrected
upon detection of the error (drives only periodically
rewrite pages with corrupted bits).
The same assumption does not hold for uncorrectable
errors. An uncorrectable error will remove the affected
block from further usage, so once encountered it will
not continue to contribute to error counts in the future.
To formally validate this intuition, we used a variety of
metrics to measure the relationship between the number
of reads in a given drive month and the number
of uncorrectable errors in the same time period, including
different correlation coefficients (Pearson, Spearman,
Kendall) as well as visual inspection. In addition to the
number of uncorrectable errors, we also looked at the incidence
of uncorrectable errors (e.g. the probability that
a drive will have at least one within a certain time period)
and their correlation with read operations.
We find no evidence for a correlation between the
number of reads and the number of uncorrectable errors.
The correlation coefficients are below 0.02 for all drive
models, and graphical inspection shows no higher UE
counts when there are more read operations.
As we will see in Section 5.4, also write and erase operations
are uncorrelated with uncorrectable errors, so an
alternative definition of UBER, which would normalize
by write or erase operations instead of read operations,
would not be any more meaningful either.
We therefore conclude that UBER is not a meaningful
metric, except maybe in controlled environments where
the number of read operations is set by the experimenter.
If used as a metric in the field, UBER will artificially
decrease the error rates for drives with high read count
and artificially inflate the rates for drives with low read
counts, as UEs occur independently of the number of
reads.
Last edited by #1 STUNNA; 03-02-2016 at 12:11 AM.
#96
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Just had a second Barracuda class drive in an external enclosure fail.
This was a 4TB Seagate External USB3.0 'BackupPlus". I had a 3TB (the dreaded 3TB Barracuda) external (same model as the 4TB) fail previously and was replaced under warranty, but this 4TB is just over 3 years old. It was used for backups, so no huge loss, but if I have any Barracuda drives, they will get replaced at the three year mark on the dot from here on out.
This was a 4TB Seagate External USB3.0 'BackupPlus". I had a 3TB (the dreaded 3TB Barracuda) external (same model as the 4TB) fail previously and was replaced under warranty, but this 4TB is just over 3 years old. It was used for backups, so no huge loss, but if I have any Barracuda drives, they will get replaced at the three year mark on the dot from here on out.
#97
Needs more Lemon Pledge
WD got final approval to purchase SanDisk.
Western Digital gets final regulatory approval for $19 billion SanDisk acquisition - TechSpot
Western Digital gets final regulatory approval for $19 billion SanDisk acquisition - TechSpot
#98
Team Owner
Suckers.
#99
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Well, my last Seagate BackupPlus 3TB, that was a refurb replacement for a previous failed one, just failed, at the 11 month mark.
I am now rid of all the 3TB barracuda drives and these enclosures.
I have an IcyDock USB3/eSata enclosure on the way and a 4TB Seagate SV series drive to go in it for local backups of the one machine the BackupPlus was connected to.
Good riddance to the Seagate 3TB Barracuda drives...
I am now rid of all the 3TB barracuda drives and these enclosures.
I have an IcyDock USB3/eSata enclosure on the way and a 4TB Seagate SV series drive to go in it for local backups of the one machine the BackupPlus was connected to.
Good riddance to the Seagate 3TB Barracuda drives...
#100
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Just picked up a little USB3 enclosure for an SSD/laptop drive for $10.
ORICO 2588US3 2.5-Inch SATA to USB 3.0 Tool-Free External Enclosure / Case for 9.5mm & 7mm SATA HDD SSD - Silver - Newegg.com
I like to have a large storage portable USB drive available, but 5400rpm? Hell no.... I am going to put a 500GB Samsung SSD in and see how it goes.
Anyone else familiar with the Orico brand? I have been having pretty good luck with their stuff. Just ordered a 7 port USB3 hub from them. My DLink 4port sucks...
ORICO 2588US3 2.5-Inch SATA to USB 3.0 Tool-Free External Enclosure / Case for 9.5mm & 7mm SATA HDD SSD - Silver - Newegg.com
I like to have a large storage portable USB drive available, but 5400rpm? Hell no.... I am going to put a 500GB Samsung SSD in and see how it goes.
Anyone else familiar with the Orico brand? I have been having pretty good luck with their stuff. Just ordered a 7 port USB3 hub from them. My DLink 4port sucks...
#101
Team Owner
I just replaced four Seagate Constellation 2TB drives in my home server with a pair of Seagate 4TB NAS drives.
Three of the four had gone critical on their SMART parameters (end-to-end errors) and the fourth was pre-failure with a lot of remapped sectors.
The 4TB drives are supposed to have significantly better reliability.
It was incredibly easy to retire the old drives, repair the Storage Spaces array (all while the server remained online), physically remove the failed/failing drives, install the new ones, and then add the new drives to the Storage Space array. Some simple PowerShell commands were my friend.
Three of the four had gone critical on their SMART parameters (end-to-end errors) and the fourth was pre-failure with a lot of remapped sectors.
The 4TB drives are supposed to have significantly better reliability.
It was incredibly easy to retire the old drives, repair the Storage Spaces array (all while the server remained online), physically remove the failed/failing drives, install the new ones, and then add the new drives to the Storage Space array. Some simple PowerShell commands were my friend.
#102
Race Director
#103
Needs more Lemon Pledge
I just replaced four Seagate Constellation 2TB drives in my home server with a pair of Seagate 4TB NAS drives.
Three of the four had gone critical on their SMART parameters (end-to-end errors) and the fourth was pre-failure with a lot of remapped sectors.
The 4TB drives are supposed to have significantly better reliability.
It was incredibly easy to retire the old drives, repair the Storage Spaces array (all while the server remained online), physically remove the failed/failing drives, install the new ones, and then add the new drives to the Storage Space array. Some simple PowerShell commands were my friend.
Three of the four had gone critical on their SMART parameters (end-to-end errors) and the fourth was pre-failure with a lot of remapped sectors.
The 4TB drives are supposed to have significantly better reliability.
It was incredibly easy to retire the old drives, repair the Storage Spaces array (all while the server remained online), physically remove the failed/failing drives, install the new ones, and then add the new drives to the Storage Space array. Some simple PowerShell commands were my friend.
#104
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Anyone have any experience with the Seagate IronWolfPro NAS drives?
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16822179100
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16822179100
#105
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Guess not... I am probably going to throw a bunch into a Synology 8 bay device here shortly.
#106
Sanest Florida Man
Thread Starter
#107
Race Director
Anyone have any experience with the Seagate IronWolfPro NAS drives?
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16822179100
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16822179100
FWIW, I just went over 3 years on my WD 4TB Red drives (4 x 4TB) and they've been rock solid, zero issues...
#108
I am still leery of using a Seagate drive... as for WDC drives I think they are great most of my functional drives are between 9-14 years old with the newest one being a 1TB drive purchased in 2008... and they are all still kicking...
#109
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Does WD have a 7200rpm NAS specific drive with a 5 year warranty?
NVM, just found the RedPro
NVM, just found the RedPro
#110
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Wow, so the (6TB) WD Red Pro is $379, has a 128MB cache, and a 5 year warranty.
The Seagate IronWolf Pro is $275 on sale (regularly $300), a 256MB cache and a 5 year warranty.
The Seagate IronWolf Pro is $275 on sale (regularly $300), a 256MB cache and a 5 year warranty.
#111
Sanest Florida Man
Thread Starter
WD Red Pro 6TB is $275 on Amazon with prime shipping
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CHP20MG...ure-scomp-wm-4
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CHP20MG...ure-scomp-wm-4
#112
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Cool, thanks!
#113
Needs more Lemon Pledge
I am struggling with the search feature on the Synology forum to find out if there is any advantage in a multi-drive RAID to have a larger PER-DISK onboard cache.
I do MUCH more sequential, large data transfers than random, small transfers, so an SSD cache volume on the RAID is of less importance to me.
I do MUCH more sequential, large data transfers than random, small transfers, so an SSD cache volume on the RAID is of less importance to me.
#114
Sanest Florida Man
Thread Starter
Then it doesn't seem like the 128mb vs 256mb cache would make a big difference.
The following users liked this post:
stogie1020 (01-30-2017)
#115
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Dang...
#116
Needs more Lemon Pledge
I have a 1TB Samsung 850Evo that I bought in 1/2016 and have used in an external USB enclosure for transferring large data sets. It just started acting weird and I realized I may be at or near the TBW max for the drive. I think it was 75TB for these (150 for the Pro models).
This has never come up before for me. I am glad I labeled the drive with the date I put it into service.
I am not going to open a computer case and attach it to a SATA cable to get the actual TBW from Samsung Magician (won't work via USB), as it's just a pain in the ass... So, I will probably just wipe it and toss it in the trash.
This has never come up before for me. I am glad I labeled the drive with the date I put it into service.
I am not going to open a computer case and attach it to a SATA cable to get the actual TBW from Samsung Magician (won't work via USB), as it's just a pain in the ass... So, I will probably just wipe it and toss it in the trash.
#117
Senior Moderator
I have a 1TB Samsung 850Evo that I bought in 1/2016 and have used in an external USB enclosure for transferring large data sets. It just started acting weird and I realized I may be at or near the TBW max for the drive. I think it was 75TB for these (150 for the Pro models).
This has never come up before for me. I am glad I labeled the drive with the date I put it into service.
I am not going to open a computer case and attach it to a SATA cable to get the actual TBW from Samsung Magician (won't work via USB), as it's just a pain in the ass... So, I will probably just wipe it and toss it in the trash.
This has never come up before for me. I am glad I labeled the drive with the date I put it into service.
I am not going to open a computer case and attach it to a SATA cable to get the actual TBW from Samsung Magician (won't work via USB), as it's just a pain in the ass... So, I will probably just wipe it and toss it in the trash.
With larger capacity and higher endurance drives, some vendors quote PBW figures. This is simply the endurance expressed as petabytes written. For example, the Intel DC P4600 Series 2TB SSD has an endurance of 11.08 PBW, which translates to a DWPD of 3. The warranty of an SSD is typically expressed as either a time period or the point at which the absolute capacity has been written. Taking another example, the Samsung 850 Pro SATA III 1TB SSD has a warranty of 10 years or 300 TBW. Over the 10-year lifetime, this means a DWPD of 0.08, which seems quite low. With a 5-year period, this value naturally doubles to 0.16. The manufacturer will guarantee the drive to either the capacity written or time the drive has been in use, which ever comes first. This means DWPD is more of a useful guide than a warrantied specification.
#118
Needs more Lemon Pledge
The larger the capacity, the higher the TBW max. So for the 850Pro 500GB it might be 1505TBW, while the 1TB version of the same drive might be 300TBW.
#119
Senior Moderator
I meant it as a data point to see if perhaps you could get it warrantied
#120
Race Director
Hard Disk Sentinel Pro monitors HD and SSD health. I really like it. Not sure if it offers any more than Magician or if it will provide TB write info via USB. It does provide that info via SATA.
https://www.hdsentinel.com/store.php
$53 for a 5 PC lifetime license, not bad (Pro Version)
https://www.hdsentinel.com/store.php
$53 for a 5 PC lifetime license, not bad (Pro Version)