Bluetooth Fails
09-24-2010, 07:56 AM
#1
Bluetooth Fails
Well known Acura electronics reliability issue!
My 2006 TL has had a reliable Bluetooth Handsfree Link system (HFL) for 4 years. A couple of weeks ago I purchased a new wireless handset and attempted to pair it with the HFL. The HFL did not 'see' the phone. I then performed a HFL system clear and a battery pull (hard reset) on the phone. Subsequent attempts to pair the new phone as well as several other phones consistently fails.
User initiated HFL diagnostics pass (10 second Talk and cancel button hold) as does the NAV system diagnostics (cancel, menu and map button hold). System voice recognition interface works fine. So much for the built-in diag effectiveness!
Dropped by the dealer to get the HFL problem checked out. Only a couple of minutes in the service bay and the technician returned, advised that the HFL was not working and that the bluetooth module in the roof console would have to be replaced. The dealer service for this repair / replacement was quoted at $708.00!
This price is ridiculous and I declined the service. A little investigation reveals this problem to be very common. Acura apparently is aware of the problem but has not been forthcoming on a relief plan for Acura owners. I understand that electronics fail but gouging the customer for >$700.00 US on a R&R of a module that likely costs less than $100.00 US certainly gives me pause as I look at a new car purchase. Over the years I have bought several Acuras but maybe not this time.
Johnson Controls manufactured the module in Mexico and if I get a chance to economically replace my failed unit, I will attempt to analyze the root cause of the failure and report back here. Johnson Controls likely well knows the root cause and how to repair and re-engineer future versions but they are not telling.
My 2006 TL has had a reliable Bluetooth Handsfree Link system (HFL) for 4 years. A couple of weeks ago I purchased a new wireless handset and attempted to pair it with the HFL. The HFL did not 'see' the phone. I then performed a HFL system clear and a battery pull (hard reset) on the phone. Subsequent attempts to pair the new phone as well as several other phones consistently fails.
User initiated HFL diagnostics pass (10 second Talk and cancel button hold) as does the NAV system diagnostics (cancel, menu and map button hold). System voice recognition interface works fine. So much for the built-in diag effectiveness!
Dropped by the dealer to get the HFL problem checked out. Only a couple of minutes in the service bay and the technician returned, advised that the HFL was not working and that the bluetooth module in the roof console would have to be replaced. The dealer service for this repair / replacement was quoted at $708.00!
This price is ridiculous and I declined the service. A little investigation reveals this problem to be very common. Acura apparently is aware of the problem but has not been forthcoming on a relief plan for Acura owners. I understand that electronics fail but gouging the customer for >$700.00 US on a R&R of a module that likely costs less than $100.00 US certainly gives me pause as I look at a new car purchase. Over the years I have bought several Acuras but maybe not this time.
Johnson Controls manufactured the module in Mexico and if I get a chance to economically replace my failed unit, I will attempt to analyze the root cause of the failure and report back here. Johnson Controls likely well knows the root cause and how to repair and re-engineer future versions but they are not telling.
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Popular Reply
10-31-2010, 01:33 PM
Good news! I was able to repair my Acura Bluetooth module. As you may recall it suddenly quit pairing with any phone but passed the onboard diagnostics. It now works fine.
Since Acura, the dealership and the manufacturer of the Bluetooth module all declined to swap out my failed unit to perform a root cause failure analysis, I decided to have a look at this infamous module.
It is located in the roof console and takes just a few minutes to remove the bezel where the module is mounted. On the bench, the cover protecting the ciurcuit boards was removed with three torx fasteners and the processor board piggy-backed on the main board was unplugged and set aside on a static control mat. The processor board is not serviceable without specialized test equipment.
So looking at the main board, a switching power supply was obvious. The capacitors used in a switch power supply must have a low ESR (equivalent series resistance) to permit the supplly to start up and operate. Capacitors used in this function must be quality parts with a high temperature rating and appropriate safe voltage rating.
The large capacitor adjacent to the switching inductor exhibited a terrible ESR and for all practical purposes had an open circuit.
This is a surface mounted device and once removed I replaced it with a conventional thru-hole leaded capacitor. I chose a 25 volt 220 uF 105 degree C component. Just for S&Gs, I reassembled the console and the Bluetooth system in the car once again works as well as it did when purchased new.
Costs?
30 minutes to remove and replace the console
30 minutes on the bench to test and replace the bad capacitor
$2.15 for the capacitor
Observations:
The dealership's labor estimate of 30 minutes to an hour is fairly typical. The parts markup is by the dealer and or the manufactureer is where the greed comes in. This is NOT a $650.00 part.
Johnson Control's attitude is very defensive - I am sure that they would not compromise their lucrative contract with Acura to produce these modules. They have no real retail face to the consumer.
Acura's attitude is surprising to me in that they do not care that these modules are failing. That is just my reaction to what I once imagined was an exceptional car company.
Recommendation: If your Bluetooth module is not working and you are out of warranty / goodwill assistance getting it fixed by Acura, take it out and let an electronics technician have a look. You might just be able to repeat my experience.
Good luck!
Since Acura, the dealership and the manufacturer of the Bluetooth module all declined to swap out my failed unit to perform a root cause failure analysis, I decided to have a look at this infamous module.
It is located in the roof console and takes just a few minutes to remove the bezel where the module is mounted. On the bench, the cover protecting the ciurcuit boards was removed with three torx fasteners and the processor board piggy-backed on the main board was unplugged and set aside on a static control mat. The processor board is not serviceable without specialized test equipment.
So looking at the main board, a switching power supply was obvious. The capacitors used in a switch power supply must have a low ESR (equivalent series resistance) to permit the supplly to start up and operate. Capacitors used in this function must be quality parts with a high temperature rating and appropriate safe voltage rating.
The large capacitor adjacent to the switching inductor exhibited a terrible ESR and for all practical purposes had an open circuit.
This is a surface mounted device and once removed I replaced it with a conventional thru-hole leaded capacitor. I chose a 25 volt 220 uF 105 degree C component. Just for S&Gs, I reassembled the console and the Bluetooth system in the car once again works as well as it did when purchased new.
Costs?
30 minutes to remove and replace the console
30 minutes on the bench to test and replace the bad capacitor
$2.15 for the capacitor
Observations:
The dealership's labor estimate of 30 minutes to an hour is fairly typical. The parts markup is by the dealer and or the manufactureer is where the greed comes in. This is NOT a $650.00 part.
Johnson Control's attitude is very defensive - I am sure that they would not compromise their lucrative contract with Acura to produce these modules. They have no real retail face to the consumer.
Acura's attitude is surprising to me in that they do not care that these modules are failing. That is just my reaction to what I once imagined was an exceptional car company.
Recommendation: If your Bluetooth module is not working and you are out of warranty / goodwill assistance getting it fixed by Acura, take it out and let an electronics technician have a look. You might just be able to repeat my experience.
Good luck!
09-24-2010, 08:56 AM
#3
Update
Talked with customer service at Johnson Controls. They do not work with the end user on any reliability problems, will not help defray R&R costs at the dealerships and will not release any field service problems now being reported on these units. Johnson Controls maintains an 'arms-length' distance from the end user. They will only communicate with Acura for procurement and Acura dealerships through their US distributor.
The customer service posture was what I expected with this company but I had to make an honest effort to help them address the issue on current units as well as future designs. On the positive side, an attitude like Johnsoon Controls has, is a great opportunity for either a C-level change in management to listen to the customer or a competitor to get some Acura vendor business.
The big loser for now is Acura, with a perceived reliability problem. Reliability is one of the key criteria that sold me on Acura.
The customer service posture was what I expected with this company but I had to make an honest effort to help them address the issue on current units as well as future designs. On the positive side, an attitude like Johnsoon Controls has, is a great opportunity for either a C-level change in management to listen to the customer or a competitor to get some Acura vendor business.
The big loser for now is Acura, with a perceived reliability problem. Reliability is one of the key criteria that sold me on Acura.
09-30-2010, 02:38 PM
#4
I just had the HFL replaced in my 06 TL for a similar failure. In my case none of the phone buttons worked. In my case, dealership worked a partial good will repair. Acura declined to cover it under "Good Will". Dealership gave a nice discount for repair so I fixed it this time-but still quite expensive.
Concur that the price of the parts ($650+) is out of line with what it costs to manufacture. I think Honda is spreading out the costs of the warranty work for this technology. 3G garage has 2 TSBs for HFL and they cover the entire 3G run (except for 06). Hope that Honda decides to extend the warranty for these units based on quality issues. Not likely, because Honda considers HFL a convenience item-not a safety issue.
Some members report having issues with battery drain (ie. dead batteries) that could be related to bad HFL. I had planned to drop console and disconnect the module connector if I was unable to get it replaced. The TSBs have illustrated instructions for how to remove and disconnect the module.
Concur that the price of the parts ($650+) is out of line with what it costs to manufacture. I think Honda is spreading out the costs of the warranty work for this technology. 3G garage has 2 TSBs for HFL and they cover the entire 3G run (except for 06). Hope that Honda decides to extend the warranty for these units based on quality issues. Not likely, because Honda considers HFL a convenience item-not a safety issue.
Some members report having issues with battery drain (ie. dead batteries) that could be related to bad HFL. I had planned to drop console and disconnect the module connector if I was unable to get it replaced. The TSBs have illustrated instructions for how to remove and disconnect the module.
09-30-2010, 07:01 PM
#5
[x] FWCC [x]
so technically this problem persists on 06 TL's only? hmmm dammm, cause i been trying how to set up my phone with my 08 TL and it doesn't find the f**** phone lol.
09-30-2010, 07:39 PM
#6
Moderator
The Bluetooth module on my '06 failed a few weeks ago as well. Fortunately, it was replaced under warranty.
10-31-2010, 01:33 PM
#7
Good news! I was able to repair my Acura Bluetooth module. As you may recall it suddenly quit pairing with any phone but passed the onboard diagnostics. It now works fine.
Since Acura, the dealership and the manufacturer of the Bluetooth module all declined to swap out my failed unit to perform a root cause failure analysis, I decided to have a look at this infamous module.
It is located in the roof console and takes just a few minutes to remove the bezel where the module is mounted. On the bench, the cover protecting the ciurcuit boards was removed with three torx fasteners and the processor board piggy-backed on the main board was unplugged and set aside on a static control mat. The processor board is not serviceable without specialized test equipment.
So looking at the main board, a switching power supply was obvious. The capacitors used in a switch power supply must have a low ESR (equivalent series resistance) to permit the supplly to start up and operate. Capacitors used in this function must be quality parts with a high temperature rating and appropriate safe voltage rating.
The large capacitor adjacent to the switching inductor exhibited a terrible ESR and for all practical purposes had an open circuit.
This is a surface mounted device and once removed I replaced it with a conventional thru-hole leaded capacitor. I chose a 25 volt 220 uF 105 degree C component. Just for S&Gs, I reassembled the console and the Bluetooth system in the car once again works as well as it did when purchased new.
Costs?
30 minutes to remove and replace the console
30 minutes on the bench to test and replace the bad capacitor
$2.15 for the capacitor
Observations:
The dealership's labor estimate of 30 minutes to an hour is fairly typical. The parts markup is by the dealer and or the manufactureer is where the greed comes in. This is NOT a $650.00 part.
Johnson Control's attitude is very defensive - I am sure that they would not compromise their lucrative contract with Acura to produce these modules. They have no real retail face to the consumer.
Acura's attitude is surprising to me in that they do not care that these modules are failing. That is just my reaction to what I once imagined was an exceptional car company.
Recommendation: If your Bluetooth module is not working and you are out of warranty / goodwill assistance getting it fixed by Acura, take it out and let an electronics technician have a look. You might just be able to repeat my experience.
Good luck!
Since Acura, the dealership and the manufacturer of the Bluetooth module all declined to swap out my failed unit to perform a root cause failure analysis, I decided to have a look at this infamous module.
It is located in the roof console and takes just a few minutes to remove the bezel where the module is mounted. On the bench, the cover protecting the ciurcuit boards was removed with three torx fasteners and the processor board piggy-backed on the main board was unplugged and set aside on a static control mat. The processor board is not serviceable without specialized test equipment.
So looking at the main board, a switching power supply was obvious. The capacitors used in a switch power supply must have a low ESR (equivalent series resistance) to permit the supplly to start up and operate. Capacitors used in this function must be quality parts with a high temperature rating and appropriate safe voltage rating.
The large capacitor adjacent to the switching inductor exhibited a terrible ESR and for all practical purposes had an open circuit.
This is a surface mounted device and once removed I replaced it with a conventional thru-hole leaded capacitor. I chose a 25 volt 220 uF 105 degree C component. Just for S&Gs, I reassembled the console and the Bluetooth system in the car once again works as well as it did when purchased new.
Costs?
30 minutes to remove and replace the console
30 minutes on the bench to test and replace the bad capacitor
$2.15 for the capacitor
Observations:
The dealership's labor estimate of 30 minutes to an hour is fairly typical. The parts markup is by the dealer and or the manufactureer is where the greed comes in. This is NOT a $650.00 part.
Johnson Control's attitude is very defensive - I am sure that they would not compromise their lucrative contract with Acura to produce these modules. They have no real retail face to the consumer.
Acura's attitude is surprising to me in that they do not care that these modules are failing. That is just my reaction to what I once imagined was an exceptional car company.
Recommendation: If your Bluetooth module is not working and you are out of warranty / goodwill assistance getting it fixed by Acura, take it out and let an electronics technician have a look. You might just be able to repeat my experience.
Good luck!
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10-31-2010, 02:01 PM
#8
Team Owner
Good news! I was able to repair my Acura Bluetooth module. As you may recall it suddenly quit pairing with any phone but passed the onboard diagnostics. It now works fine.
Since Acura, the dealership and the manufacturer of the Bluetooth module all declined to swap out my failed unit to perform a root cause failure analysis, I decided to have a look at this infamous module.
It is located in the roof console and takes just a few minutes to remove the bezel where the module is mounted. On the bench, the cover protecting the ciurcuit boards was removed with three torx fasteners and the processor board piggy-backed on the main board was unplugged and set aside on a static control mat. The processor board is not serviceable without specialized test equipment.
So looking at the main board, a switching power supply was obvious. The capacitors used in a switch power supply must have a low ESR (equivalent series resistance) to permit the supplly to start up and operate. Capacitors used in this function must be quality parts with a high temperature rating and appropriate safe voltage rating.
The large capacitor adjacent to the switching inductor exhibited a terrible ESR and for all practical purposes had an open circuit.
This is a surface mounted device and once removed I replaced it with a conventional thru-hole leaded capacitor. I chose a 25 volt 220 uF 105 degree C component. Just for S&Gs, I reassembled the console and the Bluetooth system in the car once again works as well as it did when purchased new.
Costs?
30 minutes to remove and replace the console
30 minutes on the bench to test and replace the bad capacitor
$2.15 for the capacitor
Observations:
The dealership's labor estimate of 30 minutes to an hour is fairly typical. The parts markup is by the dealer and or the manufactureer is where the greed comes in. This is NOT a $650.00 part.
Johnson Control's attitude is very defensive - I am sure that they would not compromise their lucrative contract with Acura to produce these modules. They have no real retail face to the consumer.
Acura's attitude is surprising to me in that they do not care that these modules are failing. That is just my reaction to what I once imagined was an exceptional car company.
Recommendation: If your Bluetooth module is not working and you are out of warranty / goodwill assistance getting it fixed by Acura, take it out and let an electronics technician have a look. You might just be able to repeat my experience.
Good luck!
Since Acura, the dealership and the manufacturer of the Bluetooth module all declined to swap out my failed unit to perform a root cause failure analysis, I decided to have a look at this infamous module.
It is located in the roof console and takes just a few minutes to remove the bezel where the module is mounted. On the bench, the cover protecting the ciurcuit boards was removed with three torx fasteners and the processor board piggy-backed on the main board was unplugged and set aside on a static control mat. The processor board is not serviceable without specialized test equipment.
So looking at the main board, a switching power supply was obvious. The capacitors used in a switch power supply must have a low ESR (equivalent series resistance) to permit the supplly to start up and operate. Capacitors used in this function must be quality parts with a high temperature rating and appropriate safe voltage rating.
The large capacitor adjacent to the switching inductor exhibited a terrible ESR and for all practical purposes had an open circuit.
This is a surface mounted device and once removed I replaced it with a conventional thru-hole leaded capacitor. I chose a 25 volt 220 uF 105 degree C component. Just for S&Gs, I reassembled the console and the Bluetooth system in the car once again works as well as it did when purchased new.
Costs?
30 minutes to remove and replace the console
30 minutes on the bench to test and replace the bad capacitor
$2.15 for the capacitor
Observations:
The dealership's labor estimate of 30 minutes to an hour is fairly typical. The parts markup is by the dealer and or the manufactureer is where the greed comes in. This is NOT a $650.00 part.
Johnson Control's attitude is very defensive - I am sure that they would not compromise their lucrative contract with Acura to produce these modules. They have no real retail face to the consumer.
Acura's attitude is surprising to me in that they do not care that these modules are failing. That is just my reaction to what I once imagined was an exceptional car company.
Recommendation: If your Bluetooth module is not working and you are out of warranty / goodwill assistance getting it fixed by Acura, take it out and let an electronics technician have a look. You might just be able to repeat my experience.
Good luck!
I'm not surprised in the least at Acura's unwillingness to help and overcharging us. They have the attitude of replacing whole systems instead of repairing. If you've ever read the transmission threads and power steering threads, it's the same over there. They've been replacing transmissions over $90 switches and the wrong fluid. Replacing PS pumps over a $.77 O-ring.
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10-31-2010, 06:46 PM
#10
Way to go mmclendon,
Thank you for figuring this out. It sounds like questionable component sourcing or shoddy fabrication of the SMT. I had my unit replaced by Acura-but I wonder how many of the units in the supply chain are really refurbs they are selling as new for $650+ There is no way they would just throw out an expensive module that can be easily repaired-particulary if they know where it fails.
Any chance you took pics for a DIY?
Thank you for figuring this out. It sounds like questionable component sourcing or shoddy fabrication of the SMT. I had my unit replaced by Acura-but I wonder how many of the units in the supply chain are really refurbs they are selling as new for $650+ There is no way they would just throw out an expensive module that can be easily repaired-particulary if they know where it fails.
Any chance you took pics for a DIY?
11-02-2010, 09:05 AM
#11
Way to go mmclendon,
Thank you for figuring this out. It sounds like questionable component sourcing or shoddy fabrication of the SMT. I had my unit replaced by Acura-but I wonder how many of the units in the supply chain are really refurbs they are selling as new for $650+ There is no way they would just throw out an expensive module that can be easily repaired-particulary if they know where it fails.
Any chance you took pics for a DIY?
Thank you for figuring this out. It sounds like questionable component sourcing or shoddy fabrication of the SMT. I had my unit replaced by Acura-but I wonder how many of the units in the supply chain are really refurbs they are selling as new for $650+ There is no way they would just throw out an expensive module that can be easily repaired-particulary if they know where it fails.
Any chance you took pics for a DIY?
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=mjmclendon&target=ALBUM&id=5534950078 261825233&authkey=Gv1sRgCK3f5ILx4PScDg&invite=COHj 7KsI&feat=email
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11-02-2010, 09:38 AM
#12
06 Anthracite TL
It's very impressive you were able to fix this, and the writeup is very helpful- it's saved in my favorites as well.
Thanks
Thanks
Last edited by erdoc48; 11-02-2010 at 09:41 AM.
11-09-2010, 08:58 AM
#13
10th Gear
This is so great. I want to give this a try on my 2006 Acura TL. My HFL Bluetooth just quit working. I starting looking for capacitors on the web and realized there are too many choices. Is there any way you could recommend a specific part from www.mouser.com or some other electronics website? Is the '25 volt 220 uF 105 degree C' capacitor you installed still working?
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11-12-2010, 07:41 AM
#14
Over Caffeinated
Awesome job! My '06 HFL was constantly "booting up"... it generated enough heat to keep the windshield area adjacent free of overnight condensation (yeah, my TL doesn't get to live in the garage). I went through a lot of the same things you did, searching out Johnson Controls, etc. But you were able to figure out the failed capacitor (beyond my ability to diagnose, but I can solder ;-).
I was lucky and found a module on eBay. Don't recall what I paid... maybe $60. It was something of a crap shoot, but it does work... although it seems to be "going deaf"... I say "call house" and it responds "886" or some nonsense.
Not sure if I have my old module or not... might be worth poking at it ;-)
Great job, thanks for sharing (and the photos).
Steve
I was lucky and found a module on eBay. Don't recall what I paid... maybe $60. It was something of a crap shoot, but it does work... although it seems to be "going deaf"... I say "call house" and it responds "886" or some nonsense.
Not sure if I have my old module or not... might be worth poking at it ;-)
Great job, thanks for sharing (and the photos).
Steve
11-12-2010, 11:28 AM
#15
Mikethecpa,
I recommend a 50 volt replacement cap and definitely 105 degrees C as that is what was orignally installed. I have used the Panasonic FK series caps with good success. I think Digi-Key and Mouser sell these. Select a part with the same physical dimensions so that the processor motherboard will still fit securely. It is probable that the original cap will be destroyed when you remove it unless you have a surface mount soldering station. That is OK though as the pads underneath the cap are very sturdy and a little cleanup and the replacement cap will fit just fine.
Given the high-temp environment that this module 'lives' in, other components may have heat damage over time as well but the capacitors are the first to go.
Owners with 30 minutes to spare can save hundreds of dollars in dealer repairs by ordering a replacement bezel with module attached from hondapartsunlimited ot other online OEM parts store. The OEM part is less than $400.00 for the '06TL and less for other models.
Good luck!
I recommend a 50 volt replacement cap and definitely 105 degrees C as that is what was orignally installed. I have used the Panasonic FK series caps with good success. I think Digi-Key and Mouser sell these. Select a part with the same physical dimensions so that the processor motherboard will still fit securely. It is probable that the original cap will be destroyed when you remove it unless you have a surface mount soldering station. That is OK though as the pads underneath the cap are very sturdy and a little cleanup and the replacement cap will fit just fine.
Given the high-temp environment that this module 'lives' in, other components may have heat damage over time as well but the capacitors are the first to go.
Owners with 30 minutes to spare can save hundreds of dollars in dealer repairs by ordering a replacement bezel with module attached from hondapartsunlimited ot other online OEM parts store. The OEM part is less than $400.00 for the '06TL and less for other models.
Good luck!
This is so great. I want to give this a try on my 2006 Acura TL. My HFL Bluetooth just quit working. I starting looking for capacitors on the web and realized there are too many choices. Is there any way you could recommend a specific part from www.mouser.com or some other electronics website? Is the '25 volt 220 uF 105 degree C' capacitor you installed still working?
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11-14-2010, 07:32 AM
#16
06 Anthracite TL
My sister in law's 06 MDX HFL went out several months ago, but in her case, there's no power to the HFL (the talk and hang up buttons when pushed do nothing)- if the capacitor failed in her HFL, is it possible for the whole unit to be dead? She had it investigated at Acura and was told it would be $700 to get it fixed. If I'm able to help her to get it running again via a change in the cap (assuming this will correct the problem), I want to do this. I also checked the fuses and they all look OK. Could a completely failed cap cause the unit to completely die?
11-14-2010, 07:56 AM
#18
06 Anthracite TL
My assumption...like other electronic components in the car, it should last indefinitely. I could understand if a few out of thousands of cars fail, but it seems like a higher number of these are failing (reminds me of the 2G TL transmissions- Acura indicated the cars had no issues with the transmission, then many started to, and they realized they had a more serious problem on their hands). Unfortunately, the HFL isn't a safety related defect, so it won't be handled as aggressively as something that affects the running of the car.
11-14-2010, 01:02 PM
#19
Concur that HFL should not a wear and tear item (though I think it is always on with the key in the car).
What I have learned from this thread is that failure is caused by quality issue with components (capacitor) or with manufacturing problem (surface mount of capacitor-which could be a soldering issue). I had my unit replaced before mmclendon figured out this fix.
Not sure, but I am willing to guess that Acura has had a continuing issue with these units. It does not become an issue-as long as it is replaced under warranty. No way there should be this many failures after just 4-5 years.
Speaking for myself only, I would be willing to pay a "reasonable" amount to fix this problem (say a refurbed HFL for $100 with exchange of the broken one). It is the MSRP $600+ that is the killer. You can get a 3G NAV drive (which is a more complex unit) fixed by Alpine for less than $200 shipped.
What I have learned from this thread is that failure is caused by quality issue with components (capacitor) or with manufacturing problem (surface mount of capacitor-which could be a soldering issue). I had my unit replaced before mmclendon figured out this fix.
Not sure, but I am willing to guess that Acura has had a continuing issue with these units. It does not become an issue-as long as it is replaced under warranty. No way there should be this many failures after just 4-5 years.
Speaking for myself only, I would be willing to pay a "reasonable" amount to fix this problem (say a refurbed HFL for $100 with exchange of the broken one). It is the MSRP $600+ that is the killer. You can get a 3G NAV drive (which is a more complex unit) fixed by Alpine for less than $200 shipped.
11-14-2010, 03:45 PM
#20
6th Gear
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mmclendon
Thanks for sharing this info, great job!
I have a 06 TL with a HFL that's not working, I'm not very good with a soldering iron but I'm tempted to take it to one of my audio techs and have him put the new cap it, certainly worth a shot compared with paying $700+.
Thanks for sharing this info, great job!
I have a 06 TL with a HFL that's not working, I'm not very good with a soldering iron but I'm tempted to take it to one of my audio techs and have him put the new cap it, certainly worth a shot compared with paying $700+.
11-15-2010, 07:00 AM
#21
Dead Acura Bluetooth
Hi erdoc48,
Too bad there isn't more documentation, schematics and wiring harness diagrams for the system but we can make some assumptions.
1. The HFL control switches are separate from the cabin IVR (interactive voice response) system so it is likely that they are wired to the HFL module.
2. The HFL module has two circuit boards: and analog/power main board and a digital processor daughter board.
3. Given the close proximity of the microphone also in the roof console it is a good guess that most all Bluetooth features and functions are handled by the one unit.
So, I'll make an assumption that a failure in the HFL unit would in fact cause a dead system. Just for the sake of more info, hold the speak and cancel buttons down simultaneously for 10-15 seconds and see if you can trigger the normal system diagnostic tests.
Lastly, as an unlikely but possible cause of the failure, your problem may be as simple as a poor connection that might be fixed by simply disconnecting and reconnecting the daughter board and cable. This wiping action will clean minor corrosion off of the contacts and will cost only 30 minutes of your time.
Once you have mastered the console bezel removal procedure, you can save some money and replace the module yourself for hundreds less than the dealer by ordering a replacement part from an online dealer like hondapartsunlimited dot com.
Good luck!
Too bad there isn't more documentation, schematics and wiring harness diagrams for the system but we can make some assumptions.
1. The HFL control switches are separate from the cabin IVR (interactive voice response) system so it is likely that they are wired to the HFL module.
2. The HFL module has two circuit boards: and analog/power main board and a digital processor daughter board.
3. Given the close proximity of the microphone also in the roof console it is a good guess that most all Bluetooth features and functions are handled by the one unit.
So, I'll make an assumption that a failure in the HFL unit would in fact cause a dead system. Just for the sake of more info, hold the speak and cancel buttons down simultaneously for 10-15 seconds and see if you can trigger the normal system diagnostic tests.
Lastly, as an unlikely but possible cause of the failure, your problem may be as simple as a poor connection that might be fixed by simply disconnecting and reconnecting the daughter board and cable. This wiping action will clean minor corrosion off of the contacts and will cost only 30 minutes of your time.
Once you have mastered the console bezel removal procedure, you can save some money and replace the module yourself for hundreds less than the dealer by ordering a replacement part from an online dealer like hondapartsunlimited dot com.
Good luck!
My sister in law's 06 MDX HFL went out several months ago, but in her case, there's no power to the HFL (the talk and hang up buttons when pushed do nothing)- if the capacitor failed in her HFL, is it possible for the whole unit to be dead? She had it investigated at Acura and was told it would be $700 to get it fixed. If I'm able to help her to get it running again via a change in the cap (assuming this will correct the problem), I want to do this. I also checked the fuses and they all look OK. Could a completely failed cap cause the unit to completely die?
11-15-2010, 01:31 PM
#25
8th Gear
Join Date: Apr 2010
Age: 41
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Cap has been replaced with a 220 45v.
Im going to throw it back in and give it a shot. The original cap wasn't bulging like I have seen in other blown caps so not sure if that was my issue.
Im going to throw it back in and give it a shot. The original cap wasn't bulging like I have seen in other blown caps so not sure if that was my issue.
11-18-2010, 09:33 PM
#30
06 Anthracite TL
Don't pay for the whole module- do the repair as above- it's a lot cheaper and if it doesn't work, you're not out that much $$$. Also, see if the contacts are dirty (oxidized- you won't see dirt)- I hooked up the MDX's HFL to my TL, and initially it didn't work- a few seconds later it did- I sent both modules (the MDX and my TL's) to my brother in CO for repairs- mine will be a pre-emptive strike. It hink the fact that the MDX module eventually worked in the TL is related to connector oxidation- getting the new cap is a bonus- I used the 50V, 220 uF, 105C cap from Panasonic (the FK), 10 mm which is a surface mount cap. My brother is a genius with electronics, I am not.
A special thanks to mmclendon to figuring this all out.
A special thanks to mmclendon to figuring this all out.
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Mark2006 (08-01-2016)
11-19-2010, 01:47 AM
#31
Race Director
Someone with a little electronic knowhow could probably make themselves a fair amount of $$ on the side by offering their services for Acura HFL repair.....
11-19-2010, 10:22 AM
#33
06 Anthracite TL
Check this- it shows pics and a narrative for cap location:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mjmclend...ir?feat=email#
If you're not good with electronics, find someone who can do it for you- first, I would clean the contacts with contact cleaner spray from Radio Shack- spray on the female end on the board, plug harness into it, and wait 30 minutes for the stuff to evaporate so you don't get a short (potentially)- if that doesn't work, take the board out and see if someone you know can do the soldering for you.
This is the exact cap I bought- it's a surface mount cap from www.mouser.com:
667-EEE-FK1H221P
Panasonic Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors - SMD
220UF 50V
It was $1.12 + shipping.
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acura04owner (10-05-2011)
11-19-2010, 06:49 PM
#35
06 Anthracite TL
11-21-2010, 03:03 PM
#36
Instructor
Awesome job! My '06 HFL was constantly "booting up"... it generated enough heat to keep the windshield area adjacent free of overnight condensation (yeah, my TL doesn't get to live in the garage). I went through a lot of the same things you did, searching out Johnson Controls, etc. But you were able to figure out the failed capacitor (beyond my ability to diagnose, but I can solder ;-).
I was lucky and found a module on eBay. Don't recall what I paid... maybe $60. It was something of a crap shoot, but it does work... although it seems to be "going deaf"... I say "call house" and it responds "886" or some nonsense.
Not sure if I have my old module or not... might be worth poking at it ;-)
Great job, thanks for sharing (and the photos).
Steve
I was lucky and found a module on eBay. Don't recall what I paid... maybe $60. It was something of a crap shoot, but it does work... although it seems to be "going deaf"... I say "call house" and it responds "886" or some nonsense.
Not sure if I have my old module or not... might be worth poking at it ;-)
Great job, thanks for sharing (and the photos).
Steve
11-21-2010, 03:17 PM
#37
Instructor
So does the 05 use a different capacitor? were you able to solve your problem or not yet?
11-21-2010, 04:57 PM
#38
PXAMG / ISBT21 Bluetooth 2005 Acura TL fix
There's another option for fixing the failed Acura Bluetooth module.
I had already installed the $145 iSimple PXAMG gateway and harness to interface with my 3G iPod and later, my iPhone 4.
It works well, considering how lame Hands Free Link is. For instance, as you all know, the car won't download the phonebook from the phone. You have to teach the system each number you want to call. This is simply awful.
When Apple released OS4 for the Touch and iPhone 3 and 4, the PXAMG quit altogether because iSimple had not installed the official Apple chip. This forced me to buy a new chip that had to be installed inside the PXAMG. After that little $30 upgrade, it worked fine.
This week, (Nov 16, 2010) the '05 Acura TL's non-navi's Bluetooth transmitter/receiver failed. I cannot pair the phone.
This thread and other research revealed this Johnson Controls module is located in the overhead cabin light console and tends to get baked in the sun, then die. And the part alone is $540! $708 if the dealer supplies and does the install. And I'd still have a poorly working system that will no doubt fail again in the future. Bad design, Acura. For that money, I can install a full aftermarket stereo!
Fortunately, Pac-Audio.com offers the ISBT21 Bluetooth interface for the PXAMG. Ordered one from Amazon for $72. This will (hopefully) replace the failed Acura Bluetooth system and allow full wireless music streaming and phone answering/calling via the PXAMG gateway.
The ISBT21 box comes with its own mic that I'll route to just in front of the instrument panel. The box plugs into one of the DIN-plug ports on the PXAMG.
The plan is to install the ISBT21 box under the center panel air duct outlets (the part with the clock). I found that it easily comes out without disassembling the whole dash like I had to do to get to the back of the radio to install the PXAMG initially. Now I just pull the air duct module out and will be able to stash the ISBT21 in there somewhere.
The only concern is not to block the Bluetooth signal with dash panel metal. If it doesn't transmit/receive cleanly, I'll have to reposition the box somewhere else, perhaps down by the footpedals or in a hollow beside the glove compartment.
Based on how well the PXAMG now works, I have pretty good confidence this ISBT21 Bluetooth fix will also work, and for hundreds of dollars less than Acura's $700 "solution."
I might also try my hand at the replacement capacitor solution as mentioned in this thread. Brilliant. Then again, I see that the '05 module seems different from other modules.
Currently, with the PXAMG only, I have to plug the phone physically into a cord to get it to work with the system (added plus: it also charges the iPhone while driving). This ISBT21 solution will add full wireless music and phone use (but without charging).
My Pioneer DEH-7100BT head unit that I installed in my '94 Ford Ranger works this way. It streams music and phone via Bluetooth. I just get in, turn the car on and it hooks wirelessly. I love it.
It works MUCH better than the Hands Free Link: automatically downloads the phonebook from the phone to the head unit, allows voice activated calling and displays all info on the display including battery state, antenna power, names and numbers. It also has a wheel-mounted remote control. So for $200 I have better technology in my '94 Ranger than I do in my vaunted TL. Go figure. Why Acura can't just install a Pioneer head unit is beyond me.
Anyway, this PXAMG/ISBT21 combo should get me an as good or better Bluetooth system than the factory Bluetooth, full iPhone/iPod support and wireless connectivity.
I had already installed the $145 iSimple PXAMG gateway and harness to interface with my 3G iPod and later, my iPhone 4.
It works well, considering how lame Hands Free Link is. For instance, as you all know, the car won't download the phonebook from the phone. You have to teach the system each number you want to call. This is simply awful.
When Apple released OS4 for the Touch and iPhone 3 and 4, the PXAMG quit altogether because iSimple had not installed the official Apple chip. This forced me to buy a new chip that had to be installed inside the PXAMG. After that little $30 upgrade, it worked fine.
This week, (Nov 16, 2010) the '05 Acura TL's non-navi's Bluetooth transmitter/receiver failed. I cannot pair the phone.
This thread and other research revealed this Johnson Controls module is located in the overhead cabin light console and tends to get baked in the sun, then die. And the part alone is $540! $708 if the dealer supplies and does the install. And I'd still have a poorly working system that will no doubt fail again in the future. Bad design, Acura. For that money, I can install a full aftermarket stereo!
Fortunately, Pac-Audio.com offers the ISBT21 Bluetooth interface for the PXAMG. Ordered one from Amazon for $72. This will (hopefully) replace the failed Acura Bluetooth system and allow full wireless music streaming and phone answering/calling via the PXAMG gateway.
The ISBT21 box comes with its own mic that I'll route to just in front of the instrument panel. The box plugs into one of the DIN-plug ports on the PXAMG.
The plan is to install the ISBT21 box under the center panel air duct outlets (the part with the clock). I found that it easily comes out without disassembling the whole dash like I had to do to get to the back of the radio to install the PXAMG initially. Now I just pull the air duct module out and will be able to stash the ISBT21 in there somewhere.
The only concern is not to block the Bluetooth signal with dash panel metal. If it doesn't transmit/receive cleanly, I'll have to reposition the box somewhere else, perhaps down by the footpedals or in a hollow beside the glove compartment.
Based on how well the PXAMG now works, I have pretty good confidence this ISBT21 Bluetooth fix will also work, and for hundreds of dollars less than Acura's $700 "solution."
I might also try my hand at the replacement capacitor solution as mentioned in this thread. Brilliant. Then again, I see that the '05 module seems different from other modules.
Currently, with the PXAMG only, I have to plug the phone physically into a cord to get it to work with the system (added plus: it also charges the iPhone while driving). This ISBT21 solution will add full wireless music and phone use (but without charging).
My Pioneer DEH-7100BT head unit that I installed in my '94 Ford Ranger works this way. It streams music and phone via Bluetooth. I just get in, turn the car on and it hooks wirelessly. I love it.
It works MUCH better than the Hands Free Link: automatically downloads the phonebook from the phone to the head unit, allows voice activated calling and displays all info on the display including battery state, antenna power, names and numbers. It also has a wheel-mounted remote control. So for $200 I have better technology in my '94 Ranger than I do in my vaunted TL. Go figure. Why Acura can't just install a Pioneer head unit is beyond me.
Anyway, this PXAMG/ISBT21 combo should get me an as good or better Bluetooth system than the factory Bluetooth, full iPhone/iPod support and wireless connectivity.
11-22-2010, 07:59 AM
#39
Over Caffeinated
I have an 05 TL that i got a month ago and i don't think the bluetooth works, when i go to "handsfree link" on the info and press select it just stays as booting up. Also I'm confused is there suppose to be two talk button? one for the navi and one for the hands free link? because the on with the phone on it doesn't do anything when i press it and the one under neath that one, when i press it and say phone set up, it just takes me on the navigation menu to set up. I tried saying hands free link, and it repeated fan speed three.
The "upper" buttons are for the Hands Free Link. If the display says "booting up", your HFL is not going to work. Before I replaced mine, it would *occasionally* work.
Now my replacement is starting to (seemingly) have problems decoding what I say. Personally, I feel it's a VERY poor Bluetooth implementation, which is too bad
Steve
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kkimbo (07-08-2012)
11-22-2010, 06:41 PM
#40
My assumption...like other electronic components in the car, it should last indefinitely. I could understand if a few out of thousands of cars fail, but it seems like a higher number of these are failing (reminds me of the 2G TL transmissions- Acura indicated the cars had no issues with the transmission, then many started to, and they realized they had a more serious problem on their hands). Unfortunately, the HFL isn't a safety related defect, so it won't be handled as aggressively as something that affects the running of the car.
This is a safety defect. Hand free was put in place to aid in people could keeping both hands on the wheel.
This was one of the reasons I bought my Acuras. I thought alot more of Honda than this.
This site has enough members to get something like this resolved. This fix maybe simple but this should all be on honda. Its all a matter of us taking our cars to the dealer, to get this on the books. DO NOT GET THE REPAIR UNLESS THE DEALER IS REPAIRING FOR FREE. Come back to the site and simply get a thread like this one started. Actions will be taken when a large number of people starts to complain all at one time. We all just need to hold Hondas feet to the fire......
This is also a way to get a recall on this item. Remember, this is a safety defect and it should also hurt resale value.
Last edited by DeMAN; 11-22-2010 at 06:43 PM.
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