'04 to '08 front lower control arm bushing failure - please read and look
11-20-2009, 02:17 PM
#323
Three Wheelin'
True you can do that but if someone has a press why not make it easier on yourself? Yea I cut the cage to the old one and popped it out. Took some time but it slid out eventually. Gotta love corrosion around the metals that makes it more fun until you break the seal and it comes out.
11-20-2009, 04:13 PM
#324
practicing nihilist
so, anytime you have the opportunity to get brand new parts, especially getting deep into the warranty, I say do it.
11-21-2009, 10:46 AM
#328
Three Wheelin'
From looking on whats available on Mcmaster, all the large OD bearings seem to have large ID as well. So maybe an option is a standard off-the-shelf spherical bearing in addition to a sleeve pressed or welded in its center.
11-21-2009, 10:57 AM
#329
Safety Car
pressed or welded into the oem sleeve? I dont really think thats possible....if u look at the way the oem bushing is shaped it has the edges shaved down.... my guess is so that it can fit in the arm properly..... welding would have to be done at lower than normal heat and press fitting something in there would scare me a bit because of fitment issues in the arm afterwards for 1 and for 2 theres an offset the bolt hole isnt in the center, so those 2 things have to be looked into carefully. im still messin around with a few ideas, waiting to see what heeltoe gets out there.
11-23-2009, 12:32 PM
#330
The only real drawback I could see happening is more torque steer. And this might actually be the reason for these bushings wearing in the first place. The design of the standard bushing looks to me like it would dampen the torquing of the LCAs under power, but perhaps there was an underestimation of the amount of torsional fatigue on the bushing as the suspension cycles...
11-24-2009, 04:26 PM
#332
Safety Car
heel i agree with u 100%
the poly stiffened the ride, now its got a stiffy all the time and its ready to go and it feels lighter o its feet and when the gas is punched or u launch it pulls a lil but not that much more than when its a new car......i think with stiffer bushings (bearing or poly) people would get used to it especially if its going to save them a unnecessary trip to the dealer and the car rides better.
the poly stiffened the ride, now its got a stiffy all the time and its ready to go and it feels lighter o its feet and when the gas is punched or u launch it pulls a lil but not that much more than when its a new car......i think with stiffer bushings (bearing or poly) people would get used to it especially if its going to save them a unnecessary trip to the dealer and the car rides better.
11-30-2009, 07:02 PM
#334
The 04-06 and 07-08 (all 07-08 are the same) di have a different part number but the part is the same design. Accord and Civics and TSX use the design as well. And they all seem to have varying degrees of the same issue.
So no putting 07 arms in an 04 will not fix the issue.
So no putting 07 arms in an 04 will not fix the issue.
11-30-2009, 08:05 PM
#336
Safety Car
The 04-06 and 07-08 (all 07-08 are the same) di have a different part number but the part is the same design. Accord and Civics and TSX use the design as well. And they all seem to have varying degrees of the same issue.
So no putting 07 arms in an 04 will not fix the issue.
So no putting 07 arms in an 04 will not fix the issue.
12-01-2009, 04:34 AM
#338
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so let me guess, if you buy a pair of bushings type s or none type s to you base tl will only work for a while and brake again? that's sucked! how long will they last and will you notice any difference in you car with new oem bushings installed? thanks
12-01-2009, 09:44 AM
#340
I should clarify, I wasn't trying to say the bushings were identical but the the arms are the exact same design and the bushings operate the same way. They may be more resistant to tearing but they are not immune from it. Others with Type-Ss on this thread have tearing.
12-01-2009, 06:29 PM
#341
Three Wheelin'
pressed or welded into the oem sleeve? I dont really think thats possible....if u look at the way the oem bushing is shaped it has the edges shaved down.... my guess is so that it can fit in the arm properly..... welding would have to be done at lower than normal heat and press fitting something in there would scare me a bit because of fitment issues in the arm afterwards for 1 and for 2 theres an offset the bolt hole isnt in the center, so those 2 things have to be looked into carefully. im still messin around with a few ideas, waiting to see what heeltoe gets out there.
Here's what I meant as far as welding or pressing:
I had no idea the hole was an offset alignment...
Can someone take a few good pics of this area uninstalled?
I would love to see something nice and solid like this though
:http://www.off-roadweb.com/tech/0904.../photo_06.html
12-03-2009, 12:19 AM
#342
Safety Car
Im going to take some measurements n picturess before i do gerzands bushings tomorrow. ill let u guys know if its really offset i could be wrong, ill be 100% tomorrow.
12-03-2009, 02:41 PM
#343
I have one here in front of me, 04-06 TL Base one.
The measurement from ID wall of the bolt hole to the OD of the bushing metal is 2.5mm greater on one side.
I am calling this side the TOP because of the orientation of the rubber insert.
In this pic, the bushing is pushed to the left about 2.5mm.
Here is the bottom.
The thing that is screwing me up is, the bushing is marked front in opposing directions on top and bottom, and there is not a left and right bushing...so on the driver's side the bushing is offset to the outside of the car and on the passenger side it is offset to the outside?
Seems fishy...I think this offset is relatively meaningless. It effectually alters the orientation of the lower control arm, but I think what this insert is really there to do is prevent torque steer.
As the engine torques the axles, it puts a force into the tires. There must be an opposing force so it seems that the reaction to spinning the wheels is twisting of the steering knuckle which would normally feedback force into the steering linkage causing torque-steer. But in order to add compliance to the system (psst, Honda calls this bushing a compliance bushing) this bushing is designed to absorb and dampen torque forces, thereby reducing torque-steer, a major niggling point of drivers and magazine editors.
I believe that rubber insert is actually pushing the bushing offset. Besides the insert, the bushing seems identical on both sides.
Also I noticed that the height of the bushing is about 1.5 mm off as well, but this could have just been due to my quick-n-dirty measurements. I don't find any reason why someone would install this bushing "upside down."
My conclusions/hypotheses:
A) This bushing really should just be considered a sacrificial item in a big HP FWD application.
B) The bushing is under a lot of loads. Twisting from the suspension, and torquing of the arm. The fact that this bushing breaking is due to the extra loads exerted on it in the name of preventing torque-steer.
C) Making it a rigid mount would prevent wear in the bushing but would cause major issues with drivability. Safety, even.
D) By taking the compliance out of this bushing, where else will torque be transferred to? The steering wheel? The other bushings in the system? We might just be causing wear on other bushings and steering components by "fixing" this issue.
Who here really wants to niggle about a $20 bushing failing when "fixing" it really could open another can of worms?
A poly bushing is not going to twist. A rigid bearing is not going to squish.
The measurement from ID wall of the bolt hole to the OD of the bushing metal is 2.5mm greater on one side.
I am calling this side the TOP because of the orientation of the rubber insert.
In this pic, the bushing is pushed to the left about 2.5mm.Here is the bottom.
The thing that is screwing me up is, the bushing is marked front in opposing directions on top and bottom, and there is not a left and right bushing...so on the driver's side the bushing is offset to the outside of the car and on the passenger side it is offset to the outside?
Seems fishy...I think this offset is relatively meaningless. It effectually alters the orientation of the lower control arm, but I think what this insert is really there to do is prevent torque steer.
As the engine torques the axles, it puts a force into the tires. There must be an opposing force so it seems that the reaction to spinning the wheels is twisting of the steering knuckle which would normally feedback force into the steering linkage causing torque-steer. But in order to add compliance to the system (psst, Honda calls this bushing a compliance bushing) this bushing is designed to absorb and dampen torque forces, thereby reducing torque-steer, a major niggling point of drivers and magazine editors.
I believe that rubber insert is actually pushing the bushing offset. Besides the insert, the bushing seems identical on both sides.
Also I noticed that the height of the bushing is about 1.5 mm off as well, but this could have just been due to my quick-n-dirty measurements. I don't find any reason why someone would install this bushing "upside down."
My conclusions/hypotheses:
A) This bushing really should just be considered a sacrificial item in a big HP FWD application.
B) The bushing is under a lot of loads. Twisting from the suspension, and torquing of the arm. The fact that this bushing breaking is due to the extra loads exerted on it in the name of preventing torque-steer.
C) Making it a rigid mount would prevent wear in the bushing but would cause major issues with drivability. Safety, even.
D) By taking the compliance out of this bushing, where else will torque be transferred to? The steering wheel? The other bushings in the system? We might just be causing wear on other bushings and steering components by "fixing" this issue.
Who here really wants to niggle about a $20 bushing failing when "fixing" it really could open another can of worms?
A poly bushing is not going to twist. A rigid bearing is not going to squish.
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12-03-2009, 03:18 PM
#344
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I work in the department at toyota motor manufacturing that builds the lower arm,h-frame and rear cross member.We have never seen a 270 hp camry come back with this bushing ripped.I have also checked some buddys cars at work and no issues either.One thing I have noticed is the bushing we call the bowtie is bigger on the camry than the Honda.Its the other bushing that ties the contol arm to h-frame.
12-03-2009, 03:33 PM
#345
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
^ interesting.. Although Toyota has always been known to be realistic with mount stress while Honda have always been minimalist.
12-03-2009, 04:10 PM
#346
I work in the department at toyota motor manufacturing that builds the lower arm,h-frame and rear cross member.We have never seen a 270 hp camry come back with this bushing ripped.I have also checked some buddys cars at work and no issues either.One thing I have noticed is the bushing we call the bowtie is bigger on the camry than the Honda.Its the other bushing that ties the contol arm to h-frame.
Also, how do the cars compare weight and torque-wise?
12-05-2009, 11:07 PM
#347
Modding my TL in
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Mine are slightly ripped also, 50K+ miles. Tried to swap one out - it's not worth it (w/o proper press as previously stated)! Need the whole arm and then some!
12-06-2009, 02:13 AM
#348
Aren't the bushings in the camry suspension softer? I am assuming they are because of the fact that they tend to be overall less sports-minded vehicles with less road feel and more pillow like ride. If they are softer then there would be more flexibility to prevent tearing but also less a more vague road feel. Not all hp is created equally with the same intent.
Also, how do the cars compare weight and torque-wise?
Also, how do the cars compare weight and torque-wise?
12-06-2009, 11:47 AM
#350
Safety Car
ur right there is no reason for all that but the dudes right as well.....toyota drivers are very laxed and usually drive like my blind grandmother. anyway thats not here or there.....i want to see the pillow ball mounts already! lol
12-06-2009, 04:50 PM
#351
Actually, there is reason for that when the claim that Toyota's big power V6 FWD car does not have bushing issues effectively insinuates some sort of engineering superiority. As well as you say it or don't wish to convey it that's how it came across to me.
Of course, you are right, as all cars have their issues. And be it a Honda or Toyota product, the fact that you can count these issues on one hand in most cases I don't think there is really grounds to complain about this issue as vehemently as some here are.
BMWs need completely new cooling systems anywhere north of 60,000 miles. To me that is something to complain about. A radiator should not need to be replaced as preventative maintenance!
Of course, you are right, as all cars have their issues. And be it a Honda or Toyota product, the fact that you can count these issues on one hand in most cases I don't think there is really grounds to complain about this issue as vehemently as some here are.
BMWs need completely new cooling systems anywhere north of 60,000 miles. To me that is something to complain about. A radiator should not need to be replaced as preventative maintenance!
12-06-2009, 07:15 PM
#352
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I agree healtoe 100%.Didnt mean to come across that way,Toyota has had all the V6 and SUA trouble etc.Just wondered what the relation between problem .Yea I had a 96 bmw 5 and anything that touched coolant had issues,my favorite car I ever owned including 900 hp mkiv supra.They all have trouble.
12-07-2009, 12:22 AM
#353
Dolfan, I think the main reasons why a similar camry bushing would not fail is because of variation in compound and differences in other vehicle dynamics. The TL is bred as a different animal, as you know.
You should know I am somewhat envious of people in the oem industry. Its pretty tough to get in there. And it's been a goal of mine for some time to work for an oem. Especially a japanese one. Your input is certainly valued. Maybe the TL bushing just needs to be bigger?
You should know I am somewhat envious of people in the oem industry. Its pretty tough to get in there. And it's been a goal of mine for some time to work for an oem. Especially a japanese one. Your input is certainly valued. Maybe the TL bushing just needs to be bigger?
12-07-2009, 10:33 AM
#354
Safety Car
Heel....the design is flawed...VERY flawed.... if u look at a lot of other cars whether german US or Japanese( other than honda) they have a few different ways of making their Multipoint suspensions flawless.....honda picked the fast lazy way and slapped things together and said ok put it online lets get this junk out of the factory....or at least thats how i view it. they never did any extensive testing on the car...like really legit.... u see the car as a concept one day and a week later in production and on the road.
when i look at the knuckle area of the TL, I see a lot of potential to make it so flawless it would survive an accident better as well.
i mean f*ck my life man ur in ohio building cars just drive it down to NY for a month....beat the living piss out of it and see how it handles....sure bet the parts fail more so than not. then get back to the drawing board n make it better..... sure as shit it wont cost that much to revamp a few minor things.
they did something amazing with the subframe.....but didnt suspend it correctly they put crappy damper mounts to hold it....crappy motor mounts (same design as 1998.5 til 2010) thats pretty sad. Im sure theyve seen these arms failed so many times over the years they just stopped caring and didnt redesign much to make it better. You pout a car out in stick thats typically auto and expect certain things to hold up to the abuse, thatsll never happen.... i once had my mounts changed tranny n motor n i made a right turn on to the street from the dealer to leave when it was ready and i hear my upper tranny mount blow.....and i mean snap blow scary noise type of shit lol. they have a long way to go and prob have to hire better engineers or younger ones with newer ideas to make this car better or any honda product. BUT all in all....job security goes a long way as well.
when i look at the knuckle area of the TL, I see a lot of potential to make it so flawless it would survive an accident better as well.
i mean f*ck my life man ur in ohio building cars just drive it down to NY for a month....beat the living piss out of it and see how it handles....sure bet the parts fail more so than not. then get back to the drawing board n make it better..... sure as shit it wont cost that much to revamp a few minor things.
they did something amazing with the subframe.....but didnt suspend it correctly they put crappy damper mounts to hold it....crappy motor mounts (same design as 1998.5 til 2010) thats pretty sad. Im sure theyve seen these arms failed so many times over the years they just stopped caring and didnt redesign much to make it better. You pout a car out in stick thats typically auto and expect certain things to hold up to the abuse, thatsll never happen.... i once had my mounts changed tranny n motor n i made a right turn on to the street from the dealer to leave when it was ready and i hear my upper tranny mount blow.....and i mean snap blow scary noise type of shit lol. they have a long way to go and prob have to hire better engineers or younger ones with newer ideas to make this car better or any honda product. BUT all in all....job security goes a long way as well.
12-07-2009, 10:39 AM
#355
Safety Car
I myself would love to be in the oem game making things too, when i went to school one of the teachers there told us some stuff...and this guy was an amplifier designer.....amps that cost us 1000 only cost 9$ in parts to make. and most of the time the manufacturer wont want to invest the extra 1$ to make it slightly better for whatever reason, theyd rather have it come back to fix when its time so they can keep their jobs
12-11-2009, 01:10 PM
#356
So I met with district rep today to discuss the "boot" problem with him since the dealer wants to blame my tires. He showed me an 08 TL and another 04 TL with the same problem on the boots of the control arms. He said that it is normal wear and tear and that as long as the rip doesn't go all the way down to the bushings they can't good will it. He did however good will my side view mirrors which were turning brown. He told me that if I could figure out what is causing my vibration he would be more than happy to good will it!! He also recommended that I have my tires rebalanced because that was probably my problem. I then told him that they were balanced on a hunter road force and he balked and saif that it must be in the suspension?? WTF???
12-11-2009, 04:05 PM
#358
^not sure?? The vibration is slight and appears around 67-68 mph and doesn't go away. It gets a little worse around 80 but calms down if I go faster?? They are torn pretty good but he said that that is normal!! And that they shouldn't tear all the way down!!