'04 to '08 front lower control arm bushing failure - please read and look
06-16-2009, 07:27 AM
#121
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I've never seen a poly bushing warp like that. This is not an attack at the quality of urethane they used, but its either that or a manuf defect...
I still believe we would benefit from poly bushings in the control arm.
I still believe we would benefit from poly bushings in the control arm.
06-16-2009, 08:40 AM
#122
Safety Car
ive seen them warp like that plenty of times and the girl that u speak to at innovative that takes care of the warranty claims n shipping..... says its not uncommon to see them come in like that....sometimes they come in split straight up n down other times the spiderweb effect... but it all gets fixed no question.
06-16-2009, 08:49 AM
#123
Safety Car
I spoke to a friend of mine yesterday who does crazy suspension work on cars and said poly bushings for rack days because of stiffness and for all other times...rubber.....your gonna wanna kill urself after the poly is in because if its not a rattle box now, itll become one over night......and we all know this car and its rattle issues....im sure everyone here wants more rattles
06-16-2009, 01:04 PM
#127
Poly bushings in engine mounts will definitely add to NHV issues, but not in the suspension.
Putting poly bushings in the suspension in this particular would severely limit free travel of the suspension and would make the handling pretty sketch on the street. On the track it would probably feel good.
I don't think poly is the right way to go here. A harder rubber MIGHT improve the life but you'd need to redesign the mount and do a better job than honda. I am not sure how easy that is to do. If you just filled the mount with some kind of rubber compound then you'd see better life but again only because you'd be limiting the movement of the suspension.
That's why I think a spherical bearing or pillow ball in this case is best. It will have strength and full range of movement. Expensive, and potential for noise or play (very minute but noticeable) exists though.
Marcus
Putting poly bushings in the suspension in this particular would severely limit free travel of the suspension and would make the handling pretty sketch on the street. On the track it would probably feel good.
I don't think poly is the right way to go here. A harder rubber MIGHT improve the life but you'd need to redesign the mount and do a better job than honda. I am not sure how easy that is to do. If you just filled the mount with some kind of rubber compound then you'd see better life but again only because you'd be limiting the movement of the suspension.
That's why I think a spherical bearing or pillow ball in this case is best. It will have strength and full range of movement. Expensive, and potential for noise or play (very minute but noticeable) exists though.
Marcus
06-16-2009, 01:10 PM
#128
Safety Car
Id gut out the bushing completely.....start from nothing except with the ring and the sleeve in the middle. I wouldnt want to try to bond the oem rubber with other rubber...it just wouldnt make sense in trying to improve something.
I also thought of what you thought but again your limiting movement unless your on a gyro lol. plus the metal pillow ball would be pretty stiff. when i thought about it i thought about putting a hole right through the side of the control arm and through the bushing to the other side and pressing a pillow ball joint in place... then i thought god thats gonna be stiff as hell. but hey if the rubber doesnt work then back to the drawing board
I also thought of what you thought but again your limiting movement unless your on a gyro lol. plus the metal pillow ball would be pretty stiff. when i thought about it i thought about putting a hole right through the side of the control arm and through the bushing to the other side and pressing a pillow ball joint in place... then i thought god thats gonna be stiff as hell. but hey if the rubber doesnt work then back to the drawing board
06-16-2009, 01:19 PM
#129
Id gut out the bushing completely.....start from nothing except with the ring and the sleeve in the middle. I wouldnt want to try to bond the oem rubber with other rubber...it just wouldnt make sense in trying to improve something.
I also thought of what you thought but again your limiting movement unless your on a gyro lol. plus the metal pillow ball would be pretty stiff. when i thought about it i thought about putting a hole right through the side of the control arm and through the bushing to the other side and pressing a pillow ball joint in place... then i thought god thats gonna be stiff as hell. but hey if the rubber doesnt work then back to the drawing board
I also thought of what you thought but again your limiting movement unless your on a gyro lol. plus the metal pillow ball would be pretty stiff. when i thought about it i thought about putting a hole right through the side of the control arm and through the bushing to the other side and pressing a pillow ball joint in place... then i thought god thats gonna be stiff as hell. but hey if the rubber doesnt work then back to the drawing board
Since this bushing really needs to rotate on an axis (I am assuming the center of axial rotation is the center of the mounting pin in the middle) I think the bearing would provide plenty of rotation for the suspension movement, but at the same time limit lateral and perpendicular movement. It would confine suspension movement to only the up and down rotation the arm needs to move in an limit other degrees of freedom. Actually, replacing this bushing with a bearing would probably do a lot for the handling...
Marcus
06-16-2009, 03:59 PM
#131
Not difficult, just need to tackle it. It could be a pretty significant thing though...
The oem bushing is available separate from the arm, its about $20. 51394-SEP-A01. Thing is replacing it will be kind of a pain with the pressing. And if it is just going to go bad It might be worth it to do something better.
The oem bushing is available separate from the arm, its about $20. 51394-SEP-A01. Thing is replacing it will be kind of a pain with the pressing. And if it is just going to go bad It might be worth it to do something better.
06-16-2009, 04:18 PM
#132
Team Owner
You need to think more about the loading direction here. This bushing lies flat and the arm moves through an arc. The reason this bushing is failing in my mind is because the twisting motion on it tears it. This bushing doesn't move up and down as much, or back and forth. Acura must have underestimated the effect of using this sort of bushing in this app because it looks to me like the sort of bushing that is more for lateral loads parallel to the direction of mounting and perpendicular to the center pin.
Since this bushing really needs to rotate on an axis (I am assuming the center of axial rotation is the center of the mounting pin in the middle) I think the bearing would provide plenty of rotation for the suspension movement, but at the same time limit lateral and perpendicular movement. It would confine suspension movement to only the up and down rotation the arm needs to move in an limit other degrees of freedom. Actually, replacing this bushing with a bearing would probably do a lot for the handling...
Marcus
Since this bushing really needs to rotate on an axis (I am assuming the center of axial rotation is the center of the mounting pin in the middle) I think the bearing would provide plenty of rotation for the suspension movement, but at the same time limit lateral and perpendicular movement. It would confine suspension movement to only the up and down rotation the arm needs to move in an limit other degrees of freedom. Actually, replacing this bushing with a bearing would probably do a lot for the handling...
Marcus
It would have to move in all directions otherwise Honda would've used a standard bushing in this spot.
06-16-2009, 05:00 PM
#133
I believe Honda used this bushing to allow the arm to move in different directions, but I in no way believe this MUST be the case. For performance and function this bushing needs to move in only specific directions. The rest of the movement is non-linear, feel-sapping slop.
06-16-2009, 05:18 PM
#134
Team Owner
I believe Honda used this bushing to allow the arm to move in different directions, but I in no way believe this MUST be the case. For performance and function this bushing needs to move in only specific directions. The rest of the movement is non-linear, feel-sapping slop.
06-16-2009, 05:27 PM
#135
???? Why would you stop it from moving everywhere except up an down? You'd want to stop it moving everywhere but allow it to rotate.
A bearing will not move up and down at all. It would allow rotation. Maybe you are thinking of it different than I am.
I was thinking of something like this:
Marcus
A bearing will not move up and down at all. It would allow rotation. Maybe you are thinking of it different than I am.
I was thinking of something like this:
Marcus
06-16-2009, 06:16 PM
#136
Team Owner
???? Why would you stop it from moving everywhere except up an down? You'd want to stop it moving everywhere but allow it to rotate.
A bearing will not move up and down at all. It would allow rotation. Maybe you are thinking of it different than I am.
I was thinking of something like this:
Marcus
A bearing will not move up and down at all. It would allow rotation. Maybe you are thinking of it different than I am.
I was thinking of something like this:
Marcus
06-16-2009, 10:36 PM
#140
Team Owner
Clicking while accelerating with the wheels turned is usually a CV joint.
06-16-2009, 11:23 PM
#141
practicing nihilist
06-16-2009, 11:27 PM
#142
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im going to have them check on these bushings too...
meanwhile my dad's CL transmission died too(used to be my car and tranny died on me once)
what a week...
06-17-2009, 11:38 AM
#144
Safety Car
well im thinking if the piece is solid and no other movement is allowed the energy and movement thats supposed to be absorbed by the bushing will be compensated in other parts of the car like the subframe mounts or endlinks...or whatever else would be part of the whole setup.... those pieces move in a few directions not just up n down especially in a turn....if u take the control arm apart n leave the bushing in place and flex it side to side or up n down you'll see how much shift is allowed....about 1-3 degrees without a lot of force being applied. if they are stiff.....the car will drive like an F1 car.
06-17-2009, 05:56 PM
#147
Team Owner
well im thinking if the piece is solid and no other movement is allowed the energy and movement thats supposed to be absorbed by the bushing will be compensated in other parts of the car like the subframe mounts or endlinks...or whatever else would be part of the whole setup.... those pieces move in a few directions not just up n down especially in a turn....if u take the control arm apart n leave the bushing in place and flex it side to side or up n down you'll see how much shift is allowed....about 1-3 degrees without a lot of force being applied. if they are stiff.....the car will drive like an F1 car.
06-17-2009, 10:17 PM
#150
practicing nihilist
clicking is, especially when turning, is almost undoubtedly your CV's. It's rare, but a few ziners have had early CV failure. I guess I'll try the other big Acura dealer in town and see what they say about warranty work.
06-17-2009, 10:39 PM
#152
practicing nihilist
can't answer why. if the suspension isn't super aggressive and was installed correctly, doubt it. Are you the first owner? Flogging this heavy car around turns, like break the tires and stuff a lot, would be very hard on them. I put my H&R Sports with Koni Yellows on at 40K and still have no drivetrain issues at almost 50K.
06-17-2009, 10:46 PM
#153
can't answer why. if the suspension isn't super aggressive and was installed correctly, doubt it. Are you the first owner? Flogging this heavy car around turns, like break the tires and stuff a lot, would be very hard on them. I put my H&R Sports with Koni Yellows on at 40K and still have no drivetrain issues at almost 50K.
06-17-2009, 10:48 PM
#154
practicing nihilist
how does having rear at 1.75 treat ya? I dialed both up to 2 turns recently. Was trying to get info about varying front and back stiffness but didn't find much.
06-17-2009, 11:41 PM
#155
Team Owner
That's pretty stiff unless you have a very aggressive spring in there. I have holes drilled in my strut bar so I can adjust easily and I've been doing lots of testing. Mine are now at .5 turns from softest with a-spec springs and I've lost nothing in terms of handling from the original 1.5 turns. It was unnecessarily stiff before. I may have to go another half turn when I install the monster front swaybar soon. With them at 1.5 turns it seemed to have trouble keeping contact with the road over large bumps in corners.
06-17-2009, 11:45 PM
#156
Team Owner
With the rear stiffer, it seems more likely to kick out on an aggressive turn-in.
With the front stiffer I can feed it much more throttle while turning in or exiting a corner. If you turn in to a corner very quickly it seems more likely for the front tires to break free.
Since the Konis only adjust rebound, you stand to gain more from having the front firmer.
The only way you'll truly know is by making changes and experimenting on a deserted road and it's fun lol.
What I just wrote may go against what's in books so take it with a grain of salt.
06-17-2009, 11:55 PM
#158
That's pretty stiff unless you have a very aggressive spring in there. I have holes drilled in my strut bar so I can adjust easily and I've been doing lots of testing. Mine are now at .5 turns from softest with a-spec springs and I've lost nothing in terms of handling from the original 1.5 turns. It was unnecessarily stiff before. I may have to go another half turn when I install the monster front swaybar soon. With them at 1.5 turns it seemed to have trouble keeping contact with the road over large bumps in corners.
Now, to me this is perfect. I drove the new S2000 and compared to mine the S2000 was really stiff.
Last edited by tihomirbg; 06-17-2009 at 11:58 PM.
06-18-2009, 12:02 AM
#159
Team Owner
I have Eibach springs. To me at 1.5 front and 1 turn on the rear I felt like the car was bouncing to much. then, I did 1.75 front and 1.5 rear. It got better but I felt that the front was not stiff enough. So I did 2 full turns and 1.75
Now, to me this is perfect. I drove the new S2000 and compared to mine the S2000 was really stiff.
Now, to me this is perfect. I drove the new S2000 and compared to mine the S2000 was really stiff.
Mine feels almost like stock now yet I lost nothing in cornering... at least around town less than 75mph handling. It may need a little more if I decided to really push it out on a higher speed twisty road but for driving to work every day and on the weekends it's perfect.
06-18-2009, 12:38 AM
#160
Just make sure you're not adjusting the Konis based on how stiff they feel. That will do you no good for handling.
Mine feels almost like stock now yet I lost nothing in cornering... at least around town less than 75mph handling. It may need a little more if I decided to really push it out on a higher speed twisty road but for driving to work every day and on the weekends it's perfect.
Mine feels almost like stock now yet I lost nothing in cornering... at least around town less than 75mph handling. It may need a little more if I decided to really push it out on a higher speed twisty road but for driving to work every day and on the weekends it's perfect.