BMW: Development and Technology News
02-19-2006, 09:33 AM
#82
Race Director
Originally Posted by ilitig8
Low as in you think the number will be higher? Not at ALL if that is what you meant. BMW almost always rates their 0-60 time conservatively. C&D in November got 6.1 and 14.5 in a 325 with 215hp/185tq, so it would seem the 5.7 would be very conservative! The best thing the BMW gives you the IS doesn't is a third pedal.
02-19-2006, 09:52 AM
#83
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I can't wait to see what kind of numbers this puts up. I'd agree that it is probably underrated like most BMW engines, and the addition of a smaller turbo for less lag is a nice touch. The fact that BMW has posted 5.7s to 60 means we'll probably see quicker numbers in rag tests. What will be interesting is to see if the decision to go with a turbo 6 in the 300hp range will effect the weight balance compared to the N/A engines Lexus and Infiniti will be using. Gonna be a heck of a shootout when the new 3.xL from Infiniti debuts. Judging by their past habit of slightly over-rating they'll probably need to be in the 320-325hp/tw range to compete.
I wonder about that too. Any chance you guys think it might be an emissions issue?
Originally Posted by Loseit
i like, but ....it might not be available in the US? :wtf:
02-19-2006, 09:58 AM
#84
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Originally Posted by ilitig8
The best thing the BMW gives you the IS doesn't is a third pedal.
02-19-2006, 11:05 AM
#85
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Originally Posted by TSX Hokie
I think our attorney friend nailed the important issue here. Real driving enthusiasts don't even give the IS350 a second thought, because it doesn't come with a MT. Even if it did, there is no way it would handle like the 335 will, nor have the same level of driver feedback. Unfortunately, the new BMW interiors are utter tripe. If only BMW could source a Lexus interior, we'd have the perfect sports sedan.
02-19-2006, 12:35 PM
#86
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Originally Posted by goldmemberer
And more specifically, the distribution thereof.
The 335i will outaccelerate an IS350, with the "same hp figure." And handling really is not a question here.
The 335i will outaccelerate an IS350, with the "same hp figure." And handling really is not a question here.
02-19-2006, 12:36 PM
#87
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Originally Posted by Maximized
Who cares about the published HP? Anyone that cares about performance will do basic turbo mods and this thing will fly.
02-19-2006, 12:38 PM
#88
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Originally Posted by titan
... That's what I here.
02-19-2006, 12:47 PM
#89
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I think the 335 coupe will be a great offering. The main reason? Torque. 295 pounds is significantly more than the current M3! Forget about peak HP here. That gives BMW the ability to over-tire the car and tune its suspension very aggressively. It also allows them to put bigger brakes for which BMW would not care those brakes would "steal" some torque (due to the known inertia reasons).
Finally, BMW competes with acceleration numbers and driving feel. They have previously shown that they are not necessarily taken by claimed peak HP numbers.
Once again, they will out-accelerate everyone and even if Infiniti pars with them, they will win the "drive-feel" contest. Same story, repeated.
Finally, BMW competes with acceleration numbers and driving feel. They have previously shown that they are not necessarily taken by claimed peak HP numbers.
Once again, they will out-accelerate everyone and even if Infiniti pars with them, they will win the "drive-feel" contest. Same story, repeated.
02-20-2006, 07:37 AM
#90
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There is always interweb "talk" about BMW under-rating horsepower and torque figures, which from personal experience I don't think is true. I think the problem is most people are so hung up on peak numbers. The I-6 coupled with the way BMW tunes their engines results in wide flat torque curves. When looking at performance of an engine it is only mildly important what the peak numbers are, the real performance marker is how much area is under the HP and TQ traces. For example take two engines in one car, the first has peak numbers 20% lower than the second engine, but the first produces quicker acceleration because it starts making TQ at a lower RPM and continues to make torque all the way up. Now there are a lot of other factors like gearing and weight but in general the engine with more area "under the curve" will produce faster acceleration in the same car.
The preceding is also the reason many "tuner" or modded cars (particularly NA ones) never live up to their hype or pricetag. Many of those in the car modding culture mod for those magic peak numbers at the expense of area under the curve resulting in underachieving cars, well except on the rollers at the local dyno shop. The analogy that hits me is cars used in a sound off, sure they can eclipse 170 decibels but they do one thing well, move tons of air reproducing essentially a sine wave, but when it comes to accurately producing music they fall flat on their ear. Like HP it is nice to have peak numbers but in the end most of the time people just want beautiful music...
The preceding is also the reason many "tuner" or modded cars (particularly NA ones) never live up to their hype or pricetag. Many of those in the car modding culture mod for those magic peak numbers at the expense of area under the curve resulting in underachieving cars, well except on the rollers at the local dyno shop. The analogy that hits me is cars used in a sound off, sure they can eclipse 170 decibels but they do one thing well, move tons of air reproducing essentially a sine wave, but when it comes to accurately producing music they fall flat on their ear. Like HP it is nice to have peak numbers but in the end most of the time people just want beautiful music...
02-20-2006, 02:39 PM
#92
Moderator Alumnus
Originally Posted by srika
damn, forgot how many BMW fanboys there are. 
Or how many people just reply before reading the thread entirely. You completly changed your stance on the use of the turbo in later posts. However people are still commenting on it.
Maybe people just feel the need to speak?
lol, sorry I couldn't resist
02-20-2006, 04:53 PM
#93
Originally Posted by srika
soooo..... BMW needs 2 turbos to make the same power as the IS350's NA 6-cylinder... now that's some engineering. 
I'm disappointed, BMW.
I'm disappointed, BMW.
This is a 3.0L6, basic the same block as N52 with sequential turbo attached to reduce lag.
The US will get 3.5L L6 N/A version. This engine is exclusive to european only.
The US will most likely get a 3.5 L6 with around same HP, but significantly less than N54 29X lb-ft of torque.
02-20-2006, 05:39 PM
#94
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by chiawei
???????
This is a 3.0L6, basic the same block as N52 with sequential turbo attached to reduce lag.
The US will get 3.5L L6 N/A version. This engine is exclusive to european only.
The US will most likely get a 3.5 L6 with around same HP, but significantly less than N54 29X lb-ft of torque.
This is a 3.0L6, basic the same block as N52 with sequential turbo attached to reduce lag.
The US will get 3.5L L6 N/A version. This engine is exclusive to european only.
The US will most likely get a 3.5 L6 with around same HP, but significantly less than N54 29X lb-ft of torque.
03-13-2006, 01:56 PM
#95
Senior Moderator
C&D just "announced" this... lol. seriously though they have a good write-up on it that gives a good answer to the question "why".
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....ticle_id=10753
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....ticle_id=10753
News: 2007 BMW 335i Coupe to Have 302-HP Turbo Six
The new 2007 BMW 335i coupe has 302 hp and 295 lb-ft of torque and breaks ground as the first turbocharged gasoline-powered BMW in decades.
BY MIKE DUSHANE
PHOTOGRAPHY BY CHRISTA LEHMANN/HIDDEN IMAGE
March 2006
The BMW 335i coupe that will appear later this year may look like nothing more than the latest chapter in the 3-series coupe book, but there are some radical changes under the skin. The 335i (the C goes away on this coupe as it did on the 650i for the 2006 model year) will have a 3.0-liter twin-turbo inline-six with piezoelectric direct injection. The symmetrical turbos are relatively small and each feed three cylinders. Power output is up only 47 hp over the normally aspirated version of the same 3.0-liter six found in the 330i, but BMW claims that turbo lag is all but avoided and — more importantly — peak torque increases 34 percent and is available from 1500 to 5800 rpm. BMW estimates that the twin-turbo setup gives the 335i's six the power and torque characteristics of a 4.0-liter V-8 with 10 percent less fuel consumption and 145 fewer pounds. BMW expects the 335i to shave more than half a second from the 330i's 0-to-60 time, which should put it in the low-five-second range — scarcely more than the outgoing E46 M3. The 335i is expected to carry a base price of approximately $42,000 when it goes on sale this summer. The 2008 M3 is expected to have a 400-hp naturally aspirated V-8 and cost $10,000 more.
Why, you ask, would BMW go to all the trouble of making this complex turbo engine when a V-8 would be a simpler and purer means to the same end? As worldwide petroleum reserves decline and prices go up, efficiency becomes paramount, even for performance and luxury vehicles. As worldwide emissions standards become increasingly strict, high-performance diesels — recently thought to be the next big thing — become less feasible. Mercedes-Benz also recently announced a piezoelectric direct-injection gasoline six which is naturally aspirated — for now. Dr. Thomas Weber, Mercedes-Benz's top engineering and development officer, confirms that turbocharged smaller-displacement engines are in Mercedes-Benz's near-term future as well. Turbos are here to stay.
The new 2007 BMW 335i coupe has 302 hp and 295 lb-ft of torque and breaks ground as the first turbocharged gasoline-powered BMW in decades.
BY MIKE DUSHANE
PHOTOGRAPHY BY CHRISTA LEHMANN/HIDDEN IMAGE
March 2006
The BMW 335i coupe that will appear later this year may look like nothing more than the latest chapter in the 3-series coupe book, but there are some radical changes under the skin. The 335i (the C goes away on this coupe as it did on the 650i for the 2006 model year) will have a 3.0-liter twin-turbo inline-six with piezoelectric direct injection. The symmetrical turbos are relatively small and each feed three cylinders. Power output is up only 47 hp over the normally aspirated version of the same 3.0-liter six found in the 330i, but BMW claims that turbo lag is all but avoided and — more importantly — peak torque increases 34 percent and is available from 1500 to 5800 rpm. BMW estimates that the twin-turbo setup gives the 335i's six the power and torque characteristics of a 4.0-liter V-8 with 10 percent less fuel consumption and 145 fewer pounds. BMW expects the 335i to shave more than half a second from the 330i's 0-to-60 time, which should put it in the low-five-second range — scarcely more than the outgoing E46 M3. The 335i is expected to carry a base price of approximately $42,000 when it goes on sale this summer. The 2008 M3 is expected to have a 400-hp naturally aspirated V-8 and cost $10,000 more.
Why, you ask, would BMW go to all the trouble of making this complex turbo engine when a V-8 would be a simpler and purer means to the same end? As worldwide petroleum reserves decline and prices go up, efficiency becomes paramount, even for performance and luxury vehicles. As worldwide emissions standards become increasingly strict, high-performance diesels — recently thought to be the next big thing — become less feasible. Mercedes-Benz also recently announced a piezoelectric direct-injection gasoline six which is naturally aspirated — for now. Dr. Thomas Weber, Mercedes-Benz's top engineering and development officer, confirms that turbocharged smaller-displacement engines are in Mercedes-Benz's near-term future as well. Turbos are here to stay.
03-13-2006, 05:41 PM
#97
Race Director
Originally Posted by MaximaPower
but $42k base price is pretty hefty
The 330 starts at like $38K so this is not out of line. Considering this would be pretty close in performance to the current M3, the price seems quite reasonable.
03-13-2006, 09:03 PM
#98
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never thought BMW AND Acura would go turbo. Kind of makes me sad, these companies have always squeezed a lot out of a little.
03-13-2006, 09:35 PM
#99
Walk the walk
Driving a 740 with a 4.4 with 282/325 this seems totally absurd to me. The complexity of twin turbos versus a small V8 that get excellent gas mileage seem like more marketing BS than common sense. A BMW V8 is like a turbine and the 740 averages 21+ MPG. Highway trips are 27+. A nice modern 4.0 would drive like silk, get excellent mileage and last 250K. First year BMW turbo owners, you have been warned!
03-13-2006, 11:20 PM
#100
Aint Doing Sh*t
Originally Posted by gocubsgo55
never thought BMW AND Acura would go turbo. Kind of makes me sad, these companies have always squeezed a lot out of a little.
03-14-2006, 09:57 PM
#103
Drifting
Originally Posted by srika
I guess moving to 2 small turbos and lower displacement to make the same power as a larger NA 6-cyl just doesn't make much sense to me.. why? is there an advantage?
03-15-2006, 08:11 AM
#104
Fahrvergnügen'd
Originally Posted by Alin10123
I thikn it's a weight thing. BMW puts huge important on handling. Most of their cars have a very close to 50/50 weight distribution. If they put in a larger 6 cylinder that's N/A, it might throw off the weight distribution. Plus the turbo probably gets more power at lower RPMs.
03-15-2006, 08:24 AM
#105
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by charliemike
Not to turn this into a S/C vs Turbo debate but I was under the impression that an engine needed higher RPMs before you'd see significant power from a turbo ... Hence the term "turbo lag" ... Am I mistaken?
Last edited by F23A4; 03-15-2006 at 08:28 AM.
03-15-2006, 08:42 AM
#106
Senior Moderator
EDIT: I don't think the N54 is sequential....which probably explains its WIDE flat torque curve (being driven by two small turbos early and simultaneously).
03-15-2006, 08:51 AM
#107
Senior Moderator
Found some more info:
The turbo “gap” – a thing of the past .
Developing this highly innovative power unit, BMW’s engineers have also succeeded in eliminating the former disadvantages of turbocharged engines attributable to their concept and design principle. Hence, BMW’s new turbocharged six-cylinder is absolutely free of some not so desirable characteristics so typical of turbocharged engines to this very day:
There is not the slightest delay in the development of power and thrust, and at the same time the engine does not have the same high fuel consumption as a conventional turbocharged power unit.
Particularly the biturbo concept ensures a significant improvement of spontaneous power, two smaller turbochargers each supplying three cylinders with compressed air, instead of just one big turbocharger for all cylinders together. An essential advantage of these turbochargers is their lower inertia, even the slightest pressure exerted by the driver on the gas pedal leading to an immediate surge of power and performance. In other words, the turbo “gap” so typical of turbocharged engines so far – the time-lag until the turbocharger starts to build up power – is no longer perceptible. On the road, therefore, this new turbocharged engine has virtually the same power and performance characteristics as a much larger normal-aspiration power unit: The 3.0-litre develops its impressive torque of 400 Newton-metres or 295 lb-ft without any noticeable delay consistently all the way from 1,500–5,800 rpm. And from there the engine continues to rev up smoothly all the way to 7,000 rpm,
offering the driver a particularly superior standard of dynamic performance for accelerating all-out in superior, relaxed style.
Developing this highly innovative power unit, BMW’s engineers have also succeeded in eliminating the former disadvantages of turbocharged engines attributable to their concept and design principle. Hence, BMW’s new turbocharged six-cylinder is absolutely free of some not so desirable characteristics so typical of turbocharged engines to this very day:
There is not the slightest delay in the development of power and thrust, and at the same time the engine does not have the same high fuel consumption as a conventional turbocharged power unit.
Particularly the biturbo concept ensures a significant improvement of spontaneous power, two smaller turbochargers each supplying three cylinders with compressed air, instead of just one big turbocharger for all cylinders together. An essential advantage of these turbochargers is their lower inertia, even the slightest pressure exerted by the driver on the gas pedal leading to an immediate surge of power and performance. In other words, the turbo “gap” so typical of turbocharged engines so far – the time-lag until the turbocharger starts to build up power – is no longer perceptible. On the road, therefore, this new turbocharged engine has virtually the same power and performance characteristics as a much larger normal-aspiration power unit: The 3.0-litre develops its impressive torque of 400 Newton-metres or 295 lb-ft without any noticeable delay consistently all the way from 1,500–5,800 rpm. And from there the engine continues to rev up smoothly all the way to 7,000 rpm,
offering the driver a particularly superior standard of dynamic performance for accelerating all-out in superior, relaxed style.
03-16-2006, 10:36 AM
#108
'Big Daddy Diggler'
Here we go. This engine will turn the 3 series into a legend, like the Supra and other cars. Minor mods will get this car running hard, and full turbo upgrades will make this a super car killer.
03-16-2006, 12:43 PM
#109
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That's what I'm hoping for. Perhaps BMW threw a bone to performance enthusiasts who might not want or be able to afford the next M3.
Instead of dropping 60 - 70 grand for a luxury high performance coupe, maybe I could pick this one up for maybe 45k and another 5 to 10 for a turbo kit upgrade?
Instead of dropping 60 - 70 grand for a luxury high performance coupe, maybe I could pick this one up for maybe 45k and another 5 to 10 for a turbo kit upgrade?
03-16-2006, 12:47 PM
#110
Burn some dust here
Originally Posted by bigman
Here we go. This engine will turn the 3 series into a legend, like the Supra and other cars. Minor mods will get this car running hard, and full turbo upgrades will make this a super car killer.
03-17-2006, 10:07 AM
#112
'Big Daddy Diggler'
Originally Posted by MaximaPower
so would it be safe to say that this might even be better than the new M3?
03-19-2006, 09:44 PM
#114
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this looks good. i am glad to see that bmw isn't afraid to try new things if they think it makes more power. turbo technology has gotten really good lately. i cant believe that it can be cheaper than simply slaping on 2 more cyl's.
03-25-2006, 04:21 PM
#115
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that's 2 small turbos putting in the new 3.0 engine and virtually no turbo lag, that's pretty much what the audi did to the 2.7T bi-turbo
there's always an option to turbo cars...chip it!!!
they are playing safe at 300hp and u can mod it for 400hp or more, just like audi they put at a very generous 250hp but can be go up to 600hp
there's always an option to turbo cars...chip it!!!
they are playing safe at 300hp and u can mod it for 400hp or more, just like audi they put at a very generous 250hp but can be go up to 600hp
03-25-2006, 04:25 PM
#116
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anyways...BMW does have a 3.5L engine for a long long time, but never imported to US market
they have a 3.5L V8 that is used on mostly the 735i in europe and asian market, making 235hp, and the 740i was the entry level for US, so you never see it
they have a 3.5L V8 that is used on mostly the 735i in europe and asian market, making 235hp, and the 740i was the entry level for US, so you never see it
04-06-2006, 09:51 AM
#118
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Originally Posted by SM-4
A tuners dream. First I6 turbo since the supra. I forsee big single turbos in the future.
06-04-2008, 05:03 PM
#119
old school
3M, Visteon BMW X-Wave Concept Demonstrates Future Of In-Car Tech
Featuring a host of Human Machine Interface, lighting, surface and display innovations, 3M and Visteon have created the X-Wave to showcase technology they'd like to bring to the automotive market. The two companies have combined expertises—Visteon with in-car tech and 3M for transmissive optical film and other materials—to find new ways to display information, provide lighting and interact with drivers and passengers. The first thing you'll notice looking at the interior of this adapted X5 is the center console. The buttons are hidden behind its surface, illuminating when the car is on. In lieu of the tactile push a physical button delivers, the virtual buttons react by way of haptic feedback, vibrating or clicking when pressed depending on programming.
That hidden display technology continues throughout the interior, providing as-need data on otherwise traditional-looking surfaces. For example, the doors include proximity sensors to warn of on-coming traffic or cyclists, flashing a warning just below the side windows when it's unsafe to open a door. Those proximity sensors are used inside, too, for adaptive, as-need lighting in places like the foot wells and map pockets.
3M has also developed a new, reconfigurable 3-D information display to replace traditional instruments. These can give the appearance of a manufacturer's own unique design in a universal package and be adapted to deliver optimal information levels for a specific driver or environment.
The X-Wave also feature a variety of less sexy, but practical innovations like films, glues and materials that will offer manufacturers new ways of constructing vehicle interiors. As well as things like new-style hinges that allow the center console to pivot in multiple directions and the door-mounted arm rests to adjust for height.
Lighting solutions continue outside, with the use of precision lighting elements that offer more aesthetically pleasing and effective surface lighting. Expect to see many of these technologies appear on production cars in the next few years.
Click linky for pics - I can never figure out how to swipe Jalopnik's image links:
http://jalopnik.com/394971/3m-visteo...of-in+car-tech
That hidden display technology continues throughout the interior, providing as-need data on otherwise traditional-looking surfaces. For example, the doors include proximity sensors to warn of on-coming traffic or cyclists, flashing a warning just below the side windows when it's unsafe to open a door. Those proximity sensors are used inside, too, for adaptive, as-need lighting in places like the foot wells and map pockets.
3M has also developed a new, reconfigurable 3-D information display to replace traditional instruments. These can give the appearance of a manufacturer's own unique design in a universal package and be adapted to deliver optimal information levels for a specific driver or environment.
The X-Wave also feature a variety of less sexy, but practical innovations like films, glues and materials that will offer manufacturers new ways of constructing vehicle interiors. As well as things like new-style hinges that allow the center console to pivot in multiple directions and the door-mounted arm rests to adjust for height.
Lighting solutions continue outside, with the use of precision lighting elements that offer more aesthetically pleasing and effective surface lighting. Expect to see many of these technologies appear on production cars in the next few years.
Click linky for pics - I can never figure out how to swipe Jalopnik's image links:
http://jalopnik.com/394971/3m-visteo...of-in+car-tech
06-04-2008, 06:18 PM
#120
The sizzle in the Steak
Hurray for an ugly future!!!