Virtual Dyno - Anyone use it?
08-20-2014, 11:33 PM
#41
Hey screaminz28. HP on a dyno is calculated from Torque
An inertia dyno uses a large steel drum with a known mass moment of inertia (MID) this times acceleration of the drum equals torque.
The RPM is taken from an RPM pick-up on the engine, not the roller.
Torque=MID x Acceleration
HP=(Torque X RPM)/5252 <- note that once RPM equals 5252, TORQUE and HP are equal
This is why the two lines always cross over at 5252 RPM.
This is the bare bones of what an interia dyno is doing.
You shouldn't see a Torque or HP increase on a dyno when you change FD. You will notice the benefits of a higher FD when accelerating through the gears with your "bigger lever". I don't know the inner workings of an Edyno but the FD is probably messing with the calcs or it's just bad data.
An inertia dyno uses a large steel drum with a known mass moment of inertia (MID) this times acceleration of the drum equals torque.
The RPM is taken from an RPM pick-up on the engine, not the roller.
Torque=MID x Acceleration
HP=(Torque X RPM)/5252 <- note that once RPM equals 5252, TORQUE and HP are equal
This is why the two lines always cross over at 5252 RPM. This is the bare bones of what an interia dyno is doing.
You shouldn't see a Torque or HP increase on a dyno when you change FD. You will notice the benefits of a higher FD when accelerating through the gears with your "bigger lever". I don't know the inner workings of an Edyno but the FD is probably messing with the calcs or it's just bad data.
One of the complaints of inertia dynos is that they are not "truly" measuring torque, but simply performing a mathematical calculation to estimate horsepower. You can see this when a dyno operator forgets/neglects/decides not to hook up the tach signal. On a dyno jet, you will only get a horsepower calculation across speed. If the dyno were measuring torque, then you'd get just torque across speed, but since it is giving you only horsepower, and with no rpm measurement, it cannot even calculate torque.
I agree that you 'shouldn't' see a difference with a final drive, but alas the proof is in the pudding, or data. All empirical evidence and anecdotal evidence shows there is a slight reduction in 'measured' horsepower on an inertia dyno. There's numerous discussions on domestic forums where final drive swaps are much more common.
Here's a great explanation between the differences of an inertia (DynoJet) vs eddy current dyno (Mustang, Land&Sea/DynoMite) - it must be noted that DynoJet does offer an eddy current loading module now.
http://www.zerotohundred.com/newforu...rtia-dyno.html
An inertia dyno is also fairly criticized for performing steady state tuning - while not completely useless, I've seen tuners apply the dyno brake intentionally to increase load, it's not designed for it and is really only beneficial when performing sweeping measurements. An eddy current dyno is much better for cruise tuning, though nothing beats the street for a truly accurate tune.
08-20-2014, 11:37 PM
#42
Inertia dynos are also criticized for having a single mass that is being accelerated - this can give false impressions of horsepower readings on lightweight turbo cars, since it is accelerating a mass more than it would ever see in motion. Same with an exceptionally heavy car - if the car has to accelerate a mass more than the dyno, the reading will be slightly off. But don't mistake that a dynojet ever measure torque, or horsepower for that matter- it extrapolates it from force.
08-23-2014, 10:17 AM
#43
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uploaded a 3rd gear WOT to fuel cut yesterday to the virtual dyno and results are below. i think it runs high (i think i'm only at 290-300), but below is my upload and another member's upload of the same WOT run i did. at least we got the same results independently. ignore the spike/drop at the end of my run
my settings
another member's settings on same WOT
my settings
another member's settings on same WOT
08-23-2014, 02:05 PM
#44
08-23-2014, 03:09 PM
#45
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And you need to get it. With your mods it will make your car feel like night and day. It's crazy how great it makes the car drive. With your mods it's a no brainer
08-23-2014, 10:40 PM
#47
All motor
Thread Starter
Damn, sockr1! Great power. I see you used Smoothing 1, usually that makes the graph bumpy. I use 3 and it smooths it out pretty good. Peak power suffers a little, but the graph is much easier to read. Dom is doing a great job with my car as well 
Below is my most recent graph after I deleted the butterflies. The tune really hasn't been touched since I took them out, but it still made the most overall power out of all the runs I've done with them in. I'm making more power from 5-6k as you can see here. Car feels good and is still on the stock catback.
Below is my most recent graph after I deleted the butterflies. The tune really hasn't been touched since I took them out, but it still made the most overall power out of all the runs I've done with them in. I'm making more power from 5-6k as you can see here. Car feels good and is still on the stock catback.
08-23-2014, 11:19 PM
#48
Suzuka Master
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Nice, Sonnick. Do you think I should pull my butterflies?? I've never seen so much conflicting feedback on any mod as I have on that one.
Just e-mailed Vit to set up my first data log. Flashpro install went off without a hitch. Dealer programmed the immobilizer and then I got it home, locked it, squashed the error codes and uploaded the modded base map. Rev hang is completely gone! It's a little disconcerting revving over 7k ( think the limiter kicks in at ~7200), but the car accelerates smoothly. Still have a little issue with the abrupt TB plate closure, but I know the fix for that.
Just e-mailed Vit to set up my first data log. Flashpro install went off without a hitch. Dealer programmed the immobilizer and then I got it home, locked it, squashed the error codes and uploaded the modded base map. Rev hang is completely gone! It's a little disconcerting revving over 7k ( think the limiter kicks in at ~7200), but the car accelerates smoothly. Still have a little issue with the abrupt TB plate closure, but I know the fix for that.
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Sonnick (08-23-2014)
08-23-2014, 11:47 PM
#49
All motor
Thread Starter
^ What's the fix for abrupt TB plate closure? Because I have the same issue.
To be honest, it's too soon to tell about the butterfly delete. Jiga over on V6P gained some great power once tuned, though. My car hasn't been tuned for it yet, but I hope to see some gains with it after it's tuned. I'm still on the stock catback, so who knows if I will gain more from the butterfly delete with the cutout. The car definitely sounds different under 4k though with them deleted and the "secondary runner" unchecked in FlashPro. I may have lost a little low end, but again, I'm not tuned for the delete yet and although it's a great tool, I'm not 100% set on the VDyno.
To be honest, it's too soon to tell about the butterfly delete. Jiga over on V6P gained some great power once tuned, though. My car hasn't been tuned for it yet, but I hope to see some gains with it after it's tuned. I'm still on the stock catback, so who knows if I will gain more from the butterfly delete with the cutout. The car definitely sounds different under 4k though with them deleted and the "secondary runner" unchecked in FlashPro. I may have lost a little low end, but again, I'm not tuned for the delete yet and although it's a great tool, I'm not 100% set on the VDyno.
08-24-2014, 01:17 AM
#50
Suzuka Master
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It's in pa1nt13aller's thread on V6P on page 4. You have to do a throttle plate re-learn with the HDS. (I'm 95% sure that'll fix it)
Damn, now that I think about it, I should have had the dealer do it. I paid them an hour's labor for 20 minutes worth of work. Maybe I'll just buy an HDS at some point. As annoying as it is, it's not as bad as the rev hang, which is now cured.
Damn, now that I think about it, I should have had the dealer do it. I paid them an hour's labor for 20 minutes worth of work. Maybe I'll just buy an HDS at some point. As annoying as it is, it's not as bad as the rev hang, which is now cured.
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Sonnick (08-24-2014)
08-24-2014, 05:48 PM
#51
It's in pa1nt13aller's thread on V6P on page 4. You have to do a throttle plate re-learn with the HDS. (I'm 95% sure that'll fix it)
Damn, now that I think about it, I should have had the dealer do it. I paid them an hour's labor for 20 minutes worth of work. Maybe I'll just buy an HDS at some point. As annoying as it is, it's not as bad as the rev hang, which is now cured.
Damn, now that I think about it, I should have had the dealer do it. I paid them an hour's labor for 20 minutes worth of work. Maybe I'll just buy an HDS at some point. As annoying as it is, it's not as bad as the rev hang, which is now cured.
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anx1300c (08-25-2014)
08-25-2014, 06:36 PM
#53
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I have an '06 S2000 with the Hondata Flashpro, I'll have to try it out!
Thanks for the link.
Thanks for the link.
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Sonnick (08-26-2014)
08-26-2014, 12:52 AM
#58
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No worries. Nothing too crazy for tuning. Just a variable VTEC engagement point, usually around 5000 rpms.
looks like we have to guess numbers, and like usuall, no real documentation on this on the hondata website...
08-26-2014, 09:16 PM
#60
I learned a lot of my "bucking" was due to the injector overrun and cut. I then cut the throttle plate in half at low throttle, but that will differ from everyone else, being I have a DTB set up.
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Sonnick (08-26-2014)
08-26-2014, 10:45 PM
#61
Suzuka Master
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I just got my base calibration from Vit and I need to flash it. I looked at some of the parameters and see he put vtec at 5800. I'm guessing he did that to make sure I stay out of it since he expressly stated he wanted me to take it easy for a 20-25 minute drive.
I honestly don't know if I'm going to have the patience for this whole process.
08-27-2014, 12:26 AM
#62
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Lol, no. I don't know much about tuning. I'm not ready to start messing with stuff.
I just got my base calibration from Vit and I need to flash it. I looked at some of the parameters and see he put vtec at 5800. I'm guessing he did that to make sure I stay out of it since he expressly stated he wanted me to take it easy for a 20-25 minute drive.
I honestly don't know if I'm going to have the patience for this whole process.
I just got my base calibration from Vit and I need to flash it. I looked at some of the parameters and see he put vtec at 5800. I'm guessing he did that to make sure I stay out of it since he expressly stated he wanted me to take it easy for a 20-25 minute drive.
I honestly don't know if I'm going to have the patience for this whole process.
just be patient it will do wonders for your car and vit is just being cautious and getting all your parameters lined up. a solid tune (part and full throttle) will prob take 20 cals or so
08-27-2014, 12:57 AM
#63
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
Why are you overriding what Vit did? It's a basic N/A configuration. I can see the K's taking longer due to adjustable cam angles and all, but that just seems excessive.
If I have to go that many calibrations, I'll still be datalogging during this winter. Screw that. I'll keep the base calibration and take it somewhere and have it dyno tuned.
If I have to go that many calibrations, I'll still be datalogging during this winter. Screw that. I'll keep the base calibration and take it somewhere and have it dyno tuned.
08-27-2014, 01:29 AM
#64
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I'm not overriding it's just a different type of tune. They are two different tunes one is tps based and one is map based. They aren't all that long or tedious, some are just 5 min.
I wanted to try a new tune because vits tune made me a gross polluter. My car was polluting worse than a 1990s civic so I wanted to try another approach
I wanted to try a new tune because vits tune made me a gross polluter. My car was polluting worse than a 1990s civic so I wanted to try another approach
08-27-2014, 07:59 AM
#65
I'm not overriding it's just a different type of tune. They are two different tunes one is tps based and one is map based. They aren't all that long or tedious, some are just 5 min.
I wanted to try a new tune because vits tune made me a gross polluter. My car was polluting worse than a 1990s civic so I wanted to try another approach
I wanted to try a new tune because vits tune made me a gross polluter. My car was polluting worse than a 1990s civic so I wanted to try another approach
08-27-2014, 08:42 AM
#66
Suzuka Master
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I'm not overriding it's just a different type of tune. They are two different tunes one is tps based and one is map based. They aren't all that long or tedious, some are just 5 min.
I wanted to try a new tune because vits tune made me a gross polluter. My car was polluting worse than a 1990s civic so I wanted to try another approach
I wanted to try a new tune because vits tune made me a gross polluter. My car was polluting worse than a 1990s civic so I wanted to try another approach
08-27-2014, 11:41 AM
#67
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i didn't pass on emissions, specifically the NOX readings. My NO reading was 2300 (15/25 mph). The max limit is 400/700 and the gross polluter limit is 1900/1700. i was a gross polluter big time, i felt bad about what i was spitting out. i'll try to get an unofficial smog once dom is done tuning my car (should be soon). i was taking switching back cats and checking egr stuff to see what was causing it and i kept failing, the only time i passed was when i flashed back to stock on my ecu. there's a whole thread on my dilemma haha, what a mess and waste of time/money
08-27-2014, 12:35 PM
#69
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i'll PM you i have some questions and i'm not knowledgeable enough but don't want to bog down this thread
08-27-2014, 01:35 PM
#71
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anx1300c (08-27-2014)
08-28-2014, 07:35 AM
#72
Burning Brakes
yea i agree and that was the reason why. i didn't know enough about it to realize it at the time and i even emailed vit before i went to smog to see if i need to do anything or if i would be alright. he said i would be and then i went through all those pains to find out it was the tune. emissions were horrible but gas mileage wasn't that bad, about 24 mpg
i'll PM you i have some questions and i'm not knowledgeable enough but don't want to bog down this thread
i'll PM you i have some questions and i'm not knowledgeable enough but don't want to bog down this thread
10-21-2014, 07:13 PM
#73
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
Ok, this is weird. I just got a comparison graph from Vit with the same 3854 weight and 25.33 tire diameter (which is more or less spot on for a 235/40-18) and my numbers are off the charts. There's obviously no way I'm at 300 whp, nor am I at 3854 lbs (unless I've got a very fat dead person in my trunk that I'm somehow not aware of) I did some quick numbers crunching as far as my weight reduction and I figure I'm a little under 3300. I added my 160-165 lbs, around 25 lbs worth of gas, some incidentals such as laptop etc. and came in a bit under 3500. Figuring roughly 9 whp per 100 lbs at our power level I'd estimate I'm in the upper 260's, 270 at best. But the fact your true Dynojet numbers are so close is odd.
Last edited by anx1300c; 10-21-2014 at 07:17 PM.
10-21-2014, 08:00 PM
#74
What all weight reduction have you done? Im about to start doing some on mine - only items that wont be seen. My car was at 3400 at the local truck scales. I'd suggest getting your car weighed. VD is VERY accurate, but only with accurate inputs. Weight, flat road, etc.
10-21-2014, 08:31 PM
#75
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
Yeah, I need to weigh in somewhere.
Bolt-ons: HFC's, 3.7 manifold, CAI, UR pulley, J Pipe, cat back. 45-50 lbs (Don't have exact numbers in front of me)
Wheels/tires - 25 lbs
Spare and tools -36lbs
Konis and H&R's (maybe 10 lbs, I forget)
Underhood covers, insulation, a few covers underneath car -10 lbs
21 lb Braille -18lbs
And then a few weeks ago, in anticipation of hitting the track, I pulled the rear seat (48lbs) and stripped the trunk linings (22lbs) and also pulled the glove box (4-5lbs) Nothing extra inside the car.
I don't know if the stock 3482 lbs is with or without gas, (pretty sure it's with a dry tank) but I've pulled a little over 200 lbs.
I did add a few pounds with the lip spoiler and maybe a pound or two with the Progress RSB, but that stuff is worth it.
Bolt-ons: HFC's, 3.7 manifold, CAI, UR pulley, J Pipe, cat back. 45-50 lbs (Don't have exact numbers in front of me)
Wheels/tires - 25 lbs
Spare and tools -36lbs
Konis and H&R's (maybe 10 lbs, I forget)
Underhood covers, insulation, a few covers underneath car -10 lbs
21 lb Braille -18lbs
And then a few weeks ago, in anticipation of hitting the track, I pulled the rear seat (48lbs) and stripped the trunk linings (22lbs) and also pulled the glove box (4-5lbs) Nothing extra inside the car.
I don't know if the stock 3482 lbs is with or without gas, (pretty sure it's with a dry tank) but I've pulled a little over 200 lbs.
I did add a few pounds with the lip spoiler and maybe a pound or two with the Progress RSB, but that stuff is worth it.
10-22-2014, 09:29 AM
#76
All motor
Thread Starter
Wow, great numbers! In terms of the weight, if I add 350 to my car my final numbers increase by 9.1%. I'm sure it won't be the same for every car though. Are those SAE corrected numbers? Whether they are or not, you are making some great power, man. I've never corrected them on the VDyno, honestly lol.
How do you like the E-tuning process?
How do you like the E-tuning process?
10-22-2014, 07:20 PM
#78
Burning Brakes
Ok, this is weird. I just got a comparison graph from Vit with the same 3854 weight and 25.33 tire diameter (which is more or less spot on for a 235/40-18) and my numbers are off the charts. There's obviously no way I'm at 300 whp, nor am I at 3854 lbs (unless I've got a very fat dead person in my trunk that I'm somehow not aware of) I did some quick numbers crunching as far as my weight reduction and I figure I'm a little under 3300. I added my 160-165 lbs, around 25 lbs worth of gas, some incidentals such as laptop etc. and came in a bit under 3500. Figuring roughly 9 whp per 100 lbs at our power level I'd estimate I'm in the upper 260's, 270 at best. But the fact your true Dynojet numbers are so close is odd.
Vit showed me another dyno after setting the VTEC point and I was at 260 whp, which I think is high because I didn't have the extra weight that I had for the runs I posted.
10-22-2014, 07:37 PM
#79
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I had Vit run the EDyno for me, I did it on a flat road, same spots for acceleration and then in both directions for two different calibrations. I didn't tell him that I had another person in the car with me, roughly 200 pounds more plus my RV6 exhaust isn't the lightest. I think your right with your HP estimates, high 260 to 270 whp on a Dynojet would be my guess.
Vit showed me another dyno after setting the VTEC point and I was at 260 whp, which I think is high because I didn't have the extra weight that I had for the runs I posted.
Vit showed me another dyno after setting the VTEC point and I was at 260 whp, which I think is high because I didn't have the extra weight that I had for the runs I posted.
10-22-2014, 09:34 PM
#80
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
I had Vit run the EDyno for me, I did it on a flat road, same spots for acceleration and then in both directions for two different calibrations. I didn't tell him that I had another person in the car with me, roughly 200 pounds more plus my RV6 exhaust isn't the lightest. I think your right with your HP estimates, high 260 to 270 whp on a Dynojet would be my guess.
Vit showed me another dyno after setting the VTEC point and I was at 260 whp, which I think is high because I didn't have the extra weight that I had for the runs I posted.
Vit showed me another dyno after setting the VTEC point and I was at 260 whp, which I think is high because I didn't have the extra weight that I had for the runs I posted.
And yeah, what is your Vtec point? I'm still at 4750.
