TeknoKing

All gas is distrubed thru the same effen pipe when loaded on truck, the difference is after the fact, who adds additives and who does not...

And that toptiersite? scam...

did a 'whois' lookup and came up with the following:

Registrant:
National Products Group
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US

Domain Name: TOPTIERGAS.COM

Administrative Contact :
Denny, Jim
ynnedj@aol.com
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US
Phone: 918-836-8551

Also went to http://www.aboutus.org/TopTierGas.com and got the following:

Top Tier Gasoline
Description
TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is a recently established new standard for gasoline performance. Four of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.

Since the minimum additive performance standards were first established by EPA in 1995, most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result, the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction.

These automakers have raised the bar. TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline help drivers avoid lower quality gasoline which can leave deposits on critical engine parts, which reduces engine performance. That’s something both drivers and automakers want to avoid.

Address
PO Box 3475
Tulsa OK 74101 US
Contact
National Products Group
+1 918 836 8551, Fax: +1 571 434 4620

And checking into Google Finance, found this gem - check out the matching phone number and address across all three entries:

QuikTrip Corporation owns and operates convenience stores and travel centers located in nine states in the United States. The Company has more than 405 convenience stores, which supply gasoline and sell a variety of products, including 16 to 20 different fountain drinks, coffee and cappuccino, smoothies, Hotzi breakfast and lunch sandwiches, Quik 'n Tasty sandwiches, hot dogs, energy drinks, Hydr8 sports drink and QuikTrip Taquitos. QuikTrip also operates 16 truck stops that offer restrooms, showers, scales, food and beverages, trucking fuel and other truck stop location services. The Company's gasoline is guaranteed, which means that it guarantees to reimburse customers for any repairs related to the use of its gasoline. Its QT Fleetmaster truck fleet fueling diesel fueling program offers businesses customized programs designed to fit their fuel-purchasing needs.

PO Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
USA - Map
+1-918-836-8551 (Phone)
Company website:
http://www.quiktrip.com/

DO YOU GET THE PICTURE???? Thank you.

djbonsu

iTrader: (3)

i use both....no problems here

Bearcat94

Teknoking - agree, certainly looks fishy - conflict of interest.

But, playing devils advocate, explain this:



If the standard was develped by auto manufacturers, what is their agenda, particularly with respect to Quick Trip?

Further why would Quick Trip create a system that endorses their competition - Shell, Texaco, etc.?

What standards do non-Top Tier gasolines have to meet and are they more or less stringent?

Tolik

its better for the car to fill up on same station all the time

datnkay

chevron with techron and 76 as substitute

redondored

I have always used BP until for last weekend I tried a shell. The car acted slugging and felt like a loss of power. Also, my dad has a S55 amg and he used shell gas once and got a message on his dash. The dealer said something about not using shell gas for some reason to do with carbon.

Be-in my TL

I'm sorry, but you've gotta be kidding me. 2 more cents a gallon and you don't go with 93? That's 26 cents you're losing to better your engine's lifespan.

Let me enlighten you. The reason higher end automakers require premium is because premium gas burns more slowly than for say 87 octane gasoline. It gives a chance for the fuel/air mixture inside the cylinders to burn evenly. In some cases, gasoline will burn not from spark, but from the heat already inside the cylinder. This brings pre-ignition firing. To make it easier to understand, lower octane gas burns faster, and if you don't use a slower burning gas in our engines, you may cause predetonation inside your engine. It's very bad for your engine. Our cars have a high compression ratio, you don't want one cylinder to predetonate. The pistons are pushed by combustion, imagine if your piston is on a compression cycle and it pre-ignites. How is that gonna hurt? Well, think of yourself on a trampoline. If you were going up, and something came smashing down at you, wouldn't that hurt? A piston not at top dead center, or fully compressed, has it's connecting rod on the wrong side of the crankshaft. The bearings, crankshaft, connecting rods, cylinder walls, pistons etc etc... can all be hurt from this. Using lower octane gas won't damage your engine right away, but in time, it will cause great wear to all major components.

Look up how an engine works, and you can learn how to take care of your car much better.

Elegant TYPE S

iTrader: (2)

This is exactly what I felt. The sluggishness with the V-power crap. However I will say that I got I think an extra 20 miles out of the tank though with Shell, so I will give them that. But I was just so turned off by how shitty my car was idling and performing, that I couldn't wait till I could get back to BP and noticed the difference right away.

BEAR-AvHistory

Why?

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

i use sunoco, its close by my house. there isnt a shell close to me at all, and im not going to drive miles out of my way just to get shell. im happy with sunoco

Tolik

why because your car gets used to one gas and if you switch to different one thats not so good

FreedomEagle50

Hey guys im looking to get a TL, now I have a question. Do you have to use 91? or can you use 87? Any difference because of VTEC? Just wondering so if I get this car I know what to run in it. thanks.PM are welcome

TeknoKing

Can you be any more vague?

A car does not get use to anything, it's a vehicle, not an animal.
It's you who gets use to filling up at the same location, as do most of us.

Just don't feel up when the tanks are empty, you may get sediments in your fuel tank. But in reality, it really makes no difference. If you do not maintain your car, no gas brand will help you.

Like ElegantTypeS has mentioned, yeah, additives result in better mpg but at what cost in the long run?

This will be a back and forth argument, there is no valid benefits from one or the other 'brand'. Hopefully one day, all cars will run on water, and will be arguing Poland Sping or Aquafina?

TeknoKing

91 and above yes

Below 91, get a different car.

I never understood such questions, there is a reason manufacturers specify which grade to use... They already did ALL the tests necessary to arrive at the conclusion. If you cannot afford the extra $ for the gas, look for a different car....

dj5

I agree with TeknoKing about all gas being the same. I work for one of the major oil companies. All gas companies buy and share gasoline so it's a generic product. The only difference is the additives which get blended in when they load the tanker. There is only a minor difference in the addivites and all gas brands are required to include the minimum amount of additives. The only real difference between brands is the Marketing.
Buy your gasoline from any clean high volume site.

TeknoKing

^ Bingo

1995hoo

Aside from being unnecessarily condescending and insulting, your rant is entirely unconvincing. It's nearly universally agreed that using a higher octane gas simply because it's available doesn't necessarily work any benefit (for example, using 94 octane in the TL doesn't do anything special for you). The TL is tuned to run on 91 or higher in part because for some reason out west they don't have 92 or 93 octane gas. If you accept what virtually every mechanic out there will tell you, namely that there's no need to use a gas with a higher rating than that for which your engine is tuned, then there's nothing wrong with using 91. It's not going to shorten the engine's life span or hurt the car.

Next time you want to tell us how to take care of our cars, lose the arrogance.

1995hoo

TeknoKing answered this pretty well. Only thing I would add to his reply is that you CAN run 87, but you shouldn't do it unless you have no choice. I mention this only so that you know that if you're in a jam where you're running out of gas and the only thing available is 87 (and yes, that has happened to me) you can go ahead and put in the 87. I'd suggest in that circumstance that you put in the minimal amount needed to get you to a location where you can get 91 or 93 and that you go easy on the accelerator until you've reached that other location.

Obviously I found Be-in my TL's response to my earlier post to be pompous and misguided, but he's right about one thing: Using regular gas in your TL is a false economy because while you might save some money up front, you'll wind up spending more later. (Had he bothered to read my post he would have seen that I was talking about the price difference between 91 and 93 octane, i.e., two grades of so-called "premium" gas.)

eluzion

I disagree. There have been studies showing the difference in quality between various companies. There's a reason you won't find high performance cars running Arco gas (and by high performance, I don't mean a TL Type-S). I remember coming across a very informative study that compared most of the major brands of gasoline -- will try to find it and post it here.

I'm not sure if this is the case with most gas companies but I know Chevron adds more Techron in their premium fuel. Over time, this can definitely be beneficial in keeping your combustion chamber and injectors clean. However, use whatever octane the manual recommends. I find it funny how people think running a higher octane fuel will create more power or improve gas mileage.

FlyinLowTL

I have to agree...Whenever I put the V-Power in my TL, it's like good medicine. The Idle is so much smoother at startup. I've had to fill up with other brands while on road trips, and even if I go with 93 ( I always do), I will notice right away the difference.

Shell V-Power, FTMFW.

TeknoKing

You are arguing with a wall.. Reading about a process for consumers, is different of how it happens in the real world. ALL FUEL IS THE SAME, generic... and then a brand and additives get added to it...

There have been studies.... save that info for your professor in college... join the real world. I have a refinery right next to my job.. I see all brands pulling in and out..same pumps... Or better yet, befriend an owner of a gas station, you'll learn wonders.

In regards to Techron.. you do know our high compression engines are not allowed to go near that stuff? Common.. studies show!

TeknoKing

V-Power... it's the word POWER that invigorates your senses, and you feel like a man depressing the gas pedal...

Maintain your car, you won't need additives... And in reality, if you do use such additives, you should limit them to once every two months or so... Why? Your fuel injectors will thank you in the long run... Studies show...

eluzion

I can't find that comparison I saw a few years ago but I did come across a fairly informative article that is along the lines of what I was trying to prove in my previous post -- not all gasoline is the same.

Here is a basic rundown of the article with the more relevant points:

Most gasoline does come from the same source and most of those sources have some level of Q&A.

"Prior to loading into tankers, the product may be filtered to minimize contaminants. Some major oil companies routinely filter gasoline delivered to stations."

Gas stations/companies do have a direct role in the quality of their gas.

"The final quality assurance step is a cartridge filter for each product in most dispensers at service stations. These filters are designed to minimize the possibility of water and solids reaching a vehicle tank."

How contamination can occur at the station itself:

"The last area for creating contamination is the station storage tank. Steel tanks may experience rust formation in the vapor space. Particulates may also enter through drain valves in spill buckets. In warmer climates, soil particulates may introduce microbes into the tank, which may thrive in the water/ product interface and produce additional contaminants."

Oil companies/stations play a role in gas quality.

"Having discussed various scenarios for contaminating gasoline, how can oil companies and station owners/operators ensure that their customer is receiving a quality product? The answer is, of course, somewhat obvious: attention to detail by eliminating the source whenever possible or the contamination if the source cannot be eliminated. Little can be done about the particulate generation process in terminal tanks. However, the product can be filtered prior to loading into tank trucks. Periodic cleaning of tanks and tank bottoms water management can minimize the problem. At the station, attention to detail is again the key to success. Keeping spill buckets clean and periodically cleaning tanks will minimize contamination. The last line of defense is the dispenser filter, which must be maintained and changed periodically to ensure high flow rates and continued customer satisfaction. Something which should never occur is that an owner/operator of a station replace filter cartridges with blanks if repeated filter plugging occurs. An alternative to dispenser based filtration is the installation of larger filter units at the submersible pump."

Finally, does it really matter? Not just a yes, but a resounding yes.

With many gasoline quality parameters regulated, the obvious question is if there is a difference among gasoline brands. The answer is a resounding yes. Differentiation is achieved through proprietary additive packages which contain anti-oxidants, metal deactivators, surfactants, deposit modifiers, corrosion inhibitors, and, of course, octane enhancers. In addition, gasoline retailers vary significantly in the level of care taken to prevent contamination; some companies have specific quality control procedures and special equipment to avoid contamination, while others do not.

Source

My take on this:

While all gasoline does come from the same distributor, the companies (Chevron, Shell, 76, etc.) will vary in their level of Q&A procedures, equipment, and responsibility. The station owners themselves have a direct role as well in how strict they are in adhering to those guidelines. "The only difference is additives" is what I hear a lot in this thread. Well, even if that was the only difference (which is not), the additives themselves can make a big difference for the reasons mentioned above. Bottom line, your car is going to run whether it's $2.05 Arco gas or $2.17 Chevron gas. However, I'm willing to pay the extra $1 or $2 when I fill up to ensure I'm getting a cleaner fuel with less chances of contamination and additives that will keep my injectors and combustion chambers cleaner in the long run.

eluzion

I wasn't disagreeing with gasoline coming from the same distributor, but I disagree with your notion that all gasoline is the same, period.

I've never heard of any issues with Techron and higher C/Rs. I'd love to see some studies on it though.

And as far as befriending an owner of a gas station. I'm Korean. 'nuff said.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

This thread delivers. Some good info...some bad....LOTS of opinions and people sold on marketing, ect. TechnoKing is right...gas is all generic until its additives and brand are added...lol. Gas quality tends to be more of a regional thing than a local store to store or brand name thing.

TeknoKing

Koreans own gas stations? lol Maybe on the West Coast.

Listen carefully... READ your manual..where is specifically tells you against the use such of additives... and go pick up a bottle of a chevron fuel injector cleaner... READ what it says on the warning... do not use product on high-compression engines...

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Of course I jest....

TeknoKing

Yep, I shop around based on the how frequent a gas station receives its fuel deliveries... The more they move, the fresher the gas, assuming the tanks are not near empty... Oh well, man, gas is gas... speaking of....I'll be right back..bad lunch

TeknoKing

YOU ARE NOT GETTING CLEANER GAS! You are getting generic gas WITH ADDED DETERGENTS..... And who is arguing about fuel cost?
Dude, businesses love consumers like you, who eat anything they say... Good for you.. let me guess.. The utopia promised by Obama has also appealed to you?

eluzion

Yeah, pretty much on the West coast. Depends on the area though.

Ah, so the study you are referring to is the warning label on a bottle of Techron. That is true though, no argument there. However, you would have to be an idiot to throw a fuel bottle of Techron in your car and go smash around on it, especially if you have a built N/A motor that is very high compression or even a boosted car. I'm talking about the amount of Techron and the additives you get at a pump. It won't hurt your TL. I promise.

TeknoKing

^ You promise boss? Okay, boss...

My TL-S would never come near that stuff...and only because I actually understand the function of my engine, including fuel mixture and deliverance of.

But I'll obey boss...whatever you say

eluzion

Did you even read the article? Yes, it is the same generic gas with added detergents. No, that does not mean if you get gas at one station and gas at another, it is exactly the same even if it's from the same distributor. Reason being the additives themselves can affect the quality as well as the stations themselves in both storage and filtration.

And no, I was a McCain supporter. Good try though.

eluzion

Now would I lie to you?

I have no clue how internal combustion engines work. I just know they suck, blow, and bang a lot.

Again, I will be the first to say putting a full bottle of Techron or any cleaning agent in your tank and smashing around is simply stupid, about just as stupid as putting Seafoam in your crankcase and smashing around for 500 miles. But the amount of Techron in Chevron gas will not harm your extremely high performance TL Type-S.

mglax13

iTrader: (3)

I guess my butt dyno isn't that sensitive, I've used Shell, BP, Gulf, Getty and Amoco. I can't tell the difference....

knavinusa

I'm gonna have to disagree with that statement. In the owner's manual, it states you should be using premium gas with a minimum AKI of 91. Running 93 over 91 doesn't mean anything for engine life if 91 is enough to prevent pre-detonation.

FreedomEagle50

Paying an extra 2-5 bucks isn't a big deal, I just wondering was all. Thanks for the answer I apperciate it. I use nothing but Chevron in my car unless I don't have a choice Grandma got me hooked on using it because her dad or someone worked for gas companies back in the day and they said Chevron was the best to use.

chairguru22

Wawa Premium. It's a convenience store in the NE and usually the cheapest. I think they get their gas from various places depending on location including BP, Exxon, Gulf.

http://www.wawa.com/WawaWeb/LocationsGas.aspx

They also have this guarentee...
Our Guarantee

If your vehicle has a mechanical problem caused by our gasoline, we'll pay for the repair. All we need is your word that our gasoline caused the problems and that your vehicle is serviced by a professional technician qualified to identify and fix fuel-related problems. Qualified technicians have an A8 certification from the Institute for Automotive Service Excellence.
For more information on the Wawa Gasoline Guarantee, or for claim forms, please call the Wawa Customer Call Center at 1-800-444-9292.

1075

Yeah, "independent" studies funded by the company paying for the study. The truth is very difficult to uncover, especially when you are dealing with big business. And when it comes to manufacturer recommendations, it's more about who pays who to recommend their product. Welcome to the real world.

Be-in my TL

I apologize, I didn't read it as 91 octane vs 93 octane. I read it as someone buying cheaper gas because it's 2 cents cheaper by the gallon. I've talked and argued with a lot of people who would rather save 30 cents at the station than save the engine in the long run. We get a lot of, "Well, I'm selling the car, so it doesn't matter what I put in there." at work. Just remember, gas burns differently at different octane levels.

Be-in my TL

It's funny you mentioned big businesses...BMW recogmends Castrol engine oil, and so does Jaguar. It says so on their oil cap.