Jackzilla

Most auto buyers, especially for up market brands, conform to a sort of herd instinct, when it comes to "what" they buy. In this respect, they tend to flock toward whatever the so-called auto taste makers (the automotive buff magazines, in this case) declare to be "the hottest". "now", cult car de jure.
The fact the BMW and Porsche seem to be permanently enshrined with this status, in large part, explains their remarkable success in "moving the iron". Their cars, while quiet good, enjoy a cachet out of all proportion to their actual, real world reality -- a good bit less than steller when it comes to practical and thoroughly reliable everyday transportation.
However, the words practicality, economy of operation, and bullet-proof reliability are seldom used in describing the remarkable attributes of these "astonishing" driving machines. As a matter of fact, in the lexicon of buff book writers, these seem to actually be pejorative terms -- only applicable to lesser, more mundane automobiles, like Honda Accords or (heaven forbid) Toyota Camrys.
So, the solution for selling more Acuras (and RLs) should be fairly obvious -- somehow Acura must find a way to get the buff auto writers to confer "halo" status on one of its products, as they have on virtually any BMW or Porsche. Not an easy task, because the egos of these "experts" don't easily admit to there being "any" upstart equal to their anointed cult favorites.
Acuras best chance of pulling this off now rests on the new "super" NSX, due out (according to stories) sometime between 2010 and 2012. It's supposed to have everything these guys demand in a "great" car, but I'm not betting on it becoming an auto book favorite -- after all, as good as the original NSX exotic was it never quite won the hearts or jaded minds of these taste makers. Despite its undenieable super exotic credentials, it was just "too practical and reliable as everyday transportation.

Don Melcher

A large part of Porsche "cachet" comes from their success in winning races, particularly with the 911 and variants of it in the late 60's and into the 70's, 80's and beyond.

Consider that the 911 is still being made today - a car that has its roots in the 911 introduced at the Paris auto show in 1964.

I have two of 1969 vintage variants (912 models - a 911 body with a 4 cylinder 356 engine) and they are timeless machines.

I drove one of mine in an Autrocross last weekend. Among the other cars was a brand new GT3 and a fully race prepped 911. My times were less then 10% slower - considering that my car has probably 25% the horse power (and it was a VERY FAST course favoring the high horsepower cars) and is 39 year old technology - not bad.

While the current versions are quite different both in design and styling - there is no mistake where the current designs roots come from. Park a 911 next to a 356 and one can see the family resemblance in the curves of the body going back over 50 years. Would I buy a new one? Nope - I'd rather have a restored 67 911S!

BMW on the other hand, lost its way a long time ago with me. The only BMWs I lust for are 2002's or 2000CS. I think their success of the last 20 - 30 years has to do with good marketing more then anything. At one time they built very good cars. I don't think that has been the case for a while now. I think for the most part, with a couple of exceptions (6 and 8 series coupes), their styling, especially the sedans of late, is butt ugly.

lland

Personally, I believe it will be difficult to get the "lexicon of buff book writers" to embrace in the manner you descibe, a Japanese car (Lexus being the exception). It will take more than the NSX to move Acura up on that ladder.

LL

GoHawks

Correct me, but I believe the NSX was proclaimed the best handling sports car in the wrold by one car mag. I don't think you'll find any auto writer that has anything really negative to say about the NSX. It's still considered a poor man's super car, and in fact it was. Ferrari levels of performance (in it's day) for at least half the price.

Remember VTEC technology, electronic power steering, all that technology debuted on the NSX.

jhr3uva90

Getting auto journalists' praise is an excellent first step, but it is only a first step. You then have to change the direction of the herd. That's where Toyota excelled with the Lexus brand. Their only problem now is that their customers skew too heavily toward middle-aged women who are not interested in performance cars. The IS and GS are attempts to get a more male-customer base. Other than that, Lexus is the brand to beat, because they very carefully moved the herd in their direction. Can Acura do that?

Jackzilla

Don, I agree that Porsche has an automotive background dating back to shortly after WWII, (actually to Auto Union in the 1930s) and since then thay stuck with and incrementally improved on their rear engine/behind the rear axle design. But, no matter how much tweaking is done to the rear suspension and weight of the engine, there's no repealing the laws of physics -- this design will always exhibit sudden, ultimate oversteer that can bite lesser skilled drivers and put them into the weeds tail-end first.

With all due respect, most modern day high performance cars -- those that are easiest to drive fast by both novices and experts -- are all mid-engine designs. Even Porsche recognizes this with the Boxster and its variants.

Obviously you are one of those who knows how to use the characteristics of this old Porsche design to best advantage. Nevertheless, for the ultimate in handling on a closed course, I doubt any of the 911 variants would be ultimately fastest compared to a mid-engine design, all things, powerwise, being more or less equal.

Porsche certainly does have a halo from its race track successes, but Honda, with a much shorter history has also had remarkable success in Formula I and other forms of racing. Yet, for Honda, except, seemingly, for the knowledgable, this on-track success does not translate into the kind of mystic aura that seems to attach itself to Porsche.

Maybe for Honda (and Acura, which has only about a 22-year history) time will earn it the respect and recognition that now seems to be so gratuatously heaped on Porsche (and BMW and MB) by the automotive "experts". Until then however, I think Acuras greatest opportunity for increasing its market share and sales numbers is to win over the auto "taste makers" with a "drop-dead" halo car in the form of the rumored V-10/V-12 powered super NSX.

neuronbob

The auto mags loved the TL.....except for the FWD thing.

The way to get the auto mags to love Acura is to go RWD. Until then, they will continue to say "great effort but....needs to be RWD".

In addition, Acura needs to provide PROPER test fodder for the auto mags.. I'm still steaming that they never sent out a tester TL or RL with the A-Spec suspension. What idiocy.

CL6

It's really not that tough. You take small cars, stuff massive engines into them, equip them with RWD (or AWD if you must), give their styling some edge, and do it year in and year out. The 3-Series has been on the C&D list for over a decade by doing just that.

Look at the new Mercedes-Benz C63... that's a car about the size of the TSX with a MASSIVE 6.3 liter V8 stuffed into it. Until Acura does stuff like that.......................... who cares?

Rexorg

The fact the 2003 CTS was RWD and had futuristic styling led to its selling thousands of units, and it continues today. The TL came to the plate with FWD, which was a big turnoff to the motor heads that write the articles. AWD is awesome, but expensive. The current RL probabaly would sell more units if it were RWD, with AWD being an option. The '09 TL is also going to be panned if it remains FWD, even with aggresive styling. The '09 RL looks like it will remain AWD, which is not a bad thing, but it will limit sales due to the increased cost. As I have said, I would consider the '09 RL as my next vehicle if it can remain under $50K, but I doubt that is possible given the new platform and big increase in horsepower. I wish October 2008 would get here already.

CL6

2009 Tl = Sh-awd

jhr3uva90

Great, so the TL will be heavier and slower than the competition. I guess I'll have to start recommending the Infiniti G to friends starting next year.

Don Melcher

Speaking as one who has spent time in the weeds, I agree with you analysis of the 911 characteristics. That is why I drive 912s - much less tendancy for that.

The 911 has always proven two things - how good of a driver you are and how good of a mechanic you are - they are difficult at best in both regards. But you are right - the Pontiac GTO/GT6 or whatever it is has been giving them a hard time at Daytona the past couple of years.

Porsche has ALWAYS been very supportive of performance driving and education for their "consumer" level customers though, both direct and through the Porsche Club of America. I am not aware of any marquis that has such a wide and varied driver support program.

But part of my point is that when you purchased a 911 - at least early on - it really wasn't that much different from what was running on the track at that time. I think that is what sold the cars.

That is still pretty much the case - a GT3 RS is race ready but not much different then a hot-rod, stripped down (weight wise) version of the 911 sitting on the showroom floor.

That isn't the case with a Honda F1 and success there just doesn't translate like it does/did in a production class like the 911 or cars like those from BMW, Alfa, etc. Walking into a showroom and buying a car that is essentially the same as you saw run at Laguna Seca, Daytona or LeMans has a certain appeal that cannot be denied.

As far as marketing - The Ultimate Driving Machine is a tough tag line to beat!

Jackzilla

Bob, the auto writers will alway be whinning about some perceived missing, but absolutely necessary, feature to justify their subjective opinions about why a car just "doesn't quite measure up for THEM".

If auto writers were always correct in their opinions of how cars should be built, then every new car would have a 5 or 6 speed MANUAL transmission. Obviously, since more than 98% of today's cars come with automatic transmissions, these writers' preferred gear box is NOT influencing auto sales overall.

The vast majority of drivers (present company excluded) have no idea whatsoever about which set of wheels propels their car. Before I moved to the South I actually saw, on more than one occasion, FWD cars with studded snow tires ON THE REAR WHEELS.

If cars were built to auto writer's specs, every car would have an 800 HP 6 Litre twin-turbo, V12 with 6-speed manual transmission and twin-disc clutch, 750 Lb/ft of torque at 1000 RPM, all-wheel-drive and 10" wide racing slicks to get all the power down during their banzai acceleration runs. Actually, there's one car in the world that actually exceeds this spec -- costs over $1 million a copy. Any guesses on who makes it?

Jackzilla

"The Ultimate Driving Machine", I agree, is a tough to beat tag line. However, I'm sure you'll agree that the apparent truth of its appeal is limited to only a small segment of drivers -- those to whom DRIVING ITSELF is as much a pleasure as getting to ones destination.

The vast majority of people one sees at the wheel these days are likely paying more attention to eating a big Mac or their cell phone texting than enjoying the pleasure of skillfully handling their vehicle.

TampaRLX-SH

Lamborghini Murcielago

Chas2

Bugatti Veyron running on Michelin PAX tires.

Mike_TX

Well, the BMW 3-series hasn't won the hearts of automotive writers because it has a massive engine stuffed in it. It has excelled in their testing because it has superb handling and great driving feel, and it's available with a manual transmission. Even the lowly 318's and 325's (with modest horsepower at best) have gotten on their 10-best lists, so it ain't just raw engine power that gets their attention.

But, the automotive writers are speaking less and less for me. They seem to be perennial little boys, who want to zoom-zoom around the hills with light, high-revving sports cars with clutches and lots of gears. I guess I've outgrown that.

I've become much more interested in sophistication in my cars. I want comfort, high tech, and nice luxury touches that tell me I got something for my money. I want plenty of power, but I want it to be civilized power. For example, I wouldn't drive a shaking, rumbling, raucous, uncomfortable Dodge Viper if you gave it to me. I have no interest at all in the exotic supercars like Lambo's and Bugatti's that seem to totally captivate the car mag guys.

That's why I wish they'd spend a little time evaluating things like the nav systems and the quality of the Bluetooth implementation and how well various controls function in real-world driving. I mean, they never mention things like how Acura's cruise control doesn't have to be turned back on every time you re-start the car (a pet peeve of mine in other cars), or how the GS's rear shade will automatically retract when you put the car in Reverse, then go back up when you put it in Drive. Or how good the Acura voice recognition is, or how few POI's GM's Nav systems have.

No, they just care about how many G's the car will pull on a skid pad, and how well it slides around tight curves in the mountains. Nice info in its own way, but not what 98% of drivers care about in day to day driving. That 98% want to know how well the A/C is going to work on hot days, how good the gas mileage is, how well it will get onto fast-moving, crowded freeways, how well the power windows and the stereo work, and how good they feel after a day in the saddle.

Acura isn't going to impress the car mag writers unless it comes out with a Porsche.

.
.

123456SPEED

I agree the car mags can be frustrating. BMW may be the best in their eyes but I want exceptional reliability and not overpriced options. 2nd and 3rd rate interiors/electronics are included. The BMW coupes can be lookers but the 6 coupe trunk, ugly-neurotic overstyling.

Don't know what Acura needs. They had me with my 2 Legend Coupes and I guess I've just hung around since.
A Prelude and 2 CLS 6MTs too, but nothing has matched the Legends.
I'll always love that Honda/Acura flavor. Simple and smart, reliable and fun.

neuronbob

Agree.

Totally agree.

that's really funny!

The answer is above....Bugatti Veyron FTW!

I read the auto mags for sheer entertainment and don't make car purchases based on their recommendations. If I did, I'd have a BMW 535i right now. It would be nice if Acura made a car they liked on a consistent basis. Please recall, also that Car and Driver had the RL as one of their "ten best" cars for 2005, and the TSX was on the list as well, so the car mags DO recognize Acura. The TL for its first three years was on CR's recommended list (though they REALLY didn't like the RL and rated the Infiniti M higher).

Jackzilla

Right On Bob and Chas2. It is the Bug. And what a car for practical, everyday use. Car and Driver test drove it to a top speed of 253 MPH -- the fastest production road car IN THE WORLD. Great for kiddy bragging rights, but as practical, everyday transportation??

Perfectly illustrates my point that these mag writers concepts of what's practical as "regular" transportation is out in another dimension. Probably comes from the fact that they get their cars for "free", and don't have to live with the problems of poor reliability and high maintenance costs.

As regards Car and Drivers "ten best" -- keep in mind that these are selected based on readers votes, although the choices are provided by the editors. Readers, however, can write in their own choice for each catagory.

Rob144

That's not correct. Car and Driver editors and writers pick their 10Best from a list of previous 10Best winners, and new releases. Readers do not vote for C&D's 10Best.

Edmund's has a "Reader's Choice" list where people vote from choices provided by the Editors, and an "Editor's Choice" list where their writers vote.

Rob144

dug-mac

I agree with what some have said that Acura needs to go RWD with SH-AWD as an option. The car mags want RWD because they like to be able to induce oversteer in a car. AWD will not allow for that (in most cases). It doesn't matter that AWD makes sense for many of us living in colder climates - the car mags seem to be all about performance - with the exception of CR. I think Acura really needs to focus on building the best handling car they possibly can (to satisfy the car mags). It would seem to be common sense to do this, but I feel good handling is just one on a list of virtues that they're trying to accomplish. It needs to be the first priority now. This will unseat BMW as the benchmark. Infiniti has come close with some of their models, but in general they lack the refinement of a BMW (or Acura, for that matter). Of course, improving handling has a lot to do with suspensions and this is one area where the German cars have seemed to always hold an advantage over Japanese builds...

Jackzilla

I stand corrected. Probably indicates the total lack of attention and credibility I give to Car and Driver's "10 Best" choices.

Interestingly, their list for 2007 perfectly illustrates their total bias in favor of "perfomance" cars, almost to the exclusion of anything that even smacks of being practical.
Only the Honda Accord and Fit were deemed worthy of top 10 status.

Rob144

No problem.

I actually give C&D more credibility than most for their 10Best lists. If nothing else, I was aware of their perspective so I could decide for myself if something was important to me (kind of like getting to know movie reviewers). Same is true for CR -- you get a feel for their priorities and where they align with your own.

I may be biased, of course. I've always had at least one Honda/Acura/Mazda in my garage that was on C&D's 10Best list at some point in its model run.

Rob144

Rob L

Couldn't have said it better myself

I hate the auto rags. Useless little buggers who act like they are wannabe street racing kiddies.

I used to be into the max performance stuff...when I was a teenager. Now at the "still" young age of 28.66 I realize there isn't much use for all that power/performance on my every day drive.

Auto rags are so out of touch with reality that it is amusing they still exist. I sued to read them but then realized they were a waste of my time.

The only non-forum site/publication/source I will put value in is familycar.com since the guys there actually understand most cars are used to drive on public roads rather than at some track or in the desert doing max speed runs.

sadlerau

Geting back to the original topic of selling more Acuras, or improving it's "cache".

It would seem that the problem Honda/Acura has, is the only way of improving it's appeal, is diametrically opposed to Honda's philosophy - one of man maximum, machine minimum, with a close eye on being green and enviromently friendly!

In the upper echelons of the market place, it is perceived values, not real values that rule. Excess for excesses sake, and here we have Acura trying to do more with so much less hardware to show off.

It has been said many times before on this forum what is required, more power, drivetrain options, performance options, sports options, more luxury ect. ect.

How can Acura improve the brand by offering just 1 type of RL [with a few trim/tech options], one type of TL [at least with a performance option] and a TSX [does it offer any significant options?].

Compare this with BMW, who offer the 5 series from taxi cab basic through to the M5 V10!! The 5 series carries the cache of that V10 model. And even the basic model warms itself in the reflected glow.

How many of us have seen a 525 [when it was available] with the mag wheel option from the M5, or at least the Sports Wheel pack? Here in Australia about a third of 5 series are shod along those lines. Hmm, I wonder.....

The only hope, and it is a long term hope, is that Acura will develop more models, with a performance bent, but to maintain Honda's core philosophy of being green. If it can do that, in time, the glitterati [from the pop stars through to the very rich ect] will begin to come to our fold, and the masses will follow. There would seem to be a ground swell of awareness about our planets plight [real or imagined].

If Acura can successfully milk this direction it may have a chance to jump on the bandwagon. But first and foremost it needs the right hardware. Even if it is only to pander to the media, and those wanting excess. Does Honda/Acura have the resolve to even start this battle?

Perhaps the first problem to overcomeis one of capacity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Honda is still capacity limited is it not? Perhpas we may have to wait till capacity exceeds demand before the changes we need can be accomplished.

lland

Absolutely. And the new NSX will probably be the same (although I doubt it will enjoy the same level of price advantage). But, as long as a car is compared to Ferarri, BMW, Porsche, etc., it is an also-ran. Once you start seeing cars compared to Acura, you've turned the corner. You see it now with Lexus, even though a car may be more reliable, it will be described as having "Lexus like" quality.

LL

neuronbob

Welcome to Acurazine! I think you're our first member from Australia. A pretty good first post you have here, too.

I think you're right when you mention Honda's overall philosophy. Old Mr. Honda probably wasn't much of one for conspicuous consumption, and the Legend/RL doesn't scream that.

Your other points are echoed throughout the forum. One can only hope that Honda/Acura executives are listening to us, and that the 3G RL will sell better than the 2G.

sadlerau

Thanks for the welcome neuronbob. Strictly speaking it is my second post. The post on tracking the Legend is mine, from another forum. I've been lurking on this board since the introduction of the 2G RL.

What I read here convinced me I wanted one, but I had to wait 2 long years before they became available "down under". And I'm STILL waiting on Navi to become available. But that's another story.

But what worries me most about Acura's dilema, is the dichotomy Honda faces, with the parents philosphy opposed to what type of vehicle it must bring to market to be successful as Acura.

The only hope as I see it, is the route of "green performance" which has been hinted at by Takeo Fukui.

sadlerau

What I believed happened with the NSX in the nineties, was that Acura dropped their bundle. The NSX was/is a fantastic car. In the early nineties it was often used as the bench mark in comparing with other exotics. It was well on the way to being accepted for what it was! But as the goalposts moved, it stagnated. It was very nearly the exact same car fifteen years later!!

That is not how you create "cache" with the motoring press. And the really sad part about it - they only needed to up the power and keep the chassis in tune with that extra power to stay on top of the game.

The chassis and feel of the car is STILL amongst the best. Sigh.

I often wonder if Honda's relative small size, and it's ongoing quest to sell ever more "bread and butter" vehicles is at the root of what happened. After all, there can only be so much money and personel to go around in developing all of the cars, and bikes, and racing programmes, and areo engines ect, ect.

GoHawks

You make good points. If you'll pardon the crude analogy, it's like they "blow their wad", and then they're done.

The NSX showcased a ton of new technology. VTEC, Titanium connecting rods, electric ppower steering, etc.

Most of that technology trickled down to the rest of the Honda Acura lineup. Right down to the Civic (which I have to admit is a pretty nice car). But then that was it. It's like they ran out of money and stopped developing the car. Just kept it on life support.

Now we have the the RL that introduced SH-AWD and other new technology to the Honda/Acura brand. Hopefully they won't let the 2nd gen RL languish as long as they did the NSX or the 1st gen RL.

Rob144

The next gen RL could attract TL owners wanting to move up, and existing RL owners looking for that perfect RL. Although more of a luxury cruiser, the 1G RL was a clear "next-step" in the Acura line for then-TL owners wanting to move up -- larger, more power, better materials and build quality.

The 2G RL probably didn't attract too many 1G RL owners (any out there?) looking for something new. It got smaller and sportier, and more high-tech rather than the traditional larger and more luxurious (like the 2G Legend to 1G RL). The 2G RL probably appeals more to 2G Legend owners like myself than the 1G RL did.

Acura has to "mainstream" the balancing act that is the RL. By making it the clear halo car of the lineup, they'll probably capture existing RL owners from both generations, and TL owners looking for their next ride.

Rob144

GoHawks

I still say Acura has to figure out their marketing.

Wasn't the RL the first for around $50K to provide a Collision Mitigation System?

It irks me to no end to see the Lexus commercial showing the guys standing on his brake, and the the cut to slow motion showing what is going on under the covers (seat belts pretensioning, etc). People will walk away thinking look at the cool things coming from Lexus.

Wasn't that the same with VTEC? Shortly after the NSX and then the Integra, everybody started coming out with their versions of variable valve timing.

The same will be with torque vectoring. Honda first introduced a FWD version with the Prelude, and then obviously the RL. Now BMW is coming out with their version and everybody will proclaim BMW engineers as geniuses.

Chas2

Or Audi engineers with the ingenious new torque vectoring AWD design! Those Germans, always technologically ahead of the rest of the world!

Don Melcher

I wish I could remember where I read the ad for the 06 RL that made me aware of SH-AWD, CMBS/ACC & PAX. It may have been in Forbes early in 06. I know it was on a trip back east and I think it was on a chartered jet flight, or shortly before that flight as I remember discussing it with my travel companion I was flying with as he was thinking of buying a Mercedes S550 (and eventually did) and I was pointing out the RL, although a smaller car, had a LOT of the same features for nearly 1/2 the price.

I knew right then, that the next car I brought would likely be an RL - and my recent pre-purchase research confirmed it.

The field was quickly narrowed because I wanted AWD as our second home is at the snow level.

Then I looked at the true cost of ownership on Edmunds.com for the RL and comparable AWD offerings from others - Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Audi, Volvo.

Then I studied the available technology from Acura and the others.

Then I found some reviews comparing the RL with some of the others.

My initial feeling did not change. It was a very safe car with incredible performance (performance in this case not to be confused with straight line speed ) and technology plus a great value.

I only drove one once - briefly in 06. I did not drive any of the others - I did not see any reason to after doing my diligence. There is no question in my mind that I made the right decision on a new car for the person that is the most important to me to drive - my wife!

I do truly believe it is the thinking persons car. When all the analysis is done and all the information factored in - there is only one obvious conclusion.