ScottLong

It is my understanding that these two Japanese Luxury Brands started at around the same time. How did Lexus get so far ahead of Acura in terms of sales and overall strength of lineup? Prestige and overall success? There must have been some key points during the mid 90's or early 2000's that launched Lexus into that next tier. Was it the creation of the RX? Was it because Lexus always had a flagship giant to go against the 7 and S Class? Better management? What?

Ken1997TL

Toyota is a much larger car company than Honda.

Toyota seems to care more about 'prestige' and has experience making luxury cars (look up the Toyota Crown)

Honda has always been good at building cars for the masses.

So IMO, it's a matter of priorities. Honda has never had their heart in it.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

Better direction. They know what market they are aiming for and what their brand represents and they stuck to it. Luxury with optional performance. Acura used to be Sporty luxury cars.

Then they lost their way. Started building cars with great tech but not as much tech as their competitors. And now its meh cars. Drove the TLX today and it just doesn't have that extra special piece. Doesn't have the most interesting tech. Its just a good car. Nothing to differentiate it really.

If they had Type S models and spent a little more time with marketing and doing a better job they would be great. And they skimp on power that should be provided. 290 for the new gen. Its ridiculous.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

if only Acura/Honda stopped making mediocre products

Yumcha

And ultimately, Honda/Acura has shown the market what their target demographics are. They are content at being at that entry-level luxury segment...competing now with Buick, Lincoln...

Nothing wrong with that I suppose.

ScottLong

Will the TLX change this? If the TLX manage to do 60,000+ a year? That means the sedan segment is definitely back for Acura and a lineup of ILX/TLX/RLX is probably stronger than anything Buck or Lincoln can offer.

Ken1997TL

60,000+ is quite possible. Acura has done it before.

usdmJON

Does anyone here like the new look of the Lincoln over the TLX? I think the new Lincoln grill is ugly as hell.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

that wont change the perception of the brand.
it will still be known as an entry level vehicle for the mass market.

ScottLong

I would pick the TLX over the Lincoln. I view the TLX as a superior car made by what I still think is a superior Brand. I also like the aftermarket following Acura have. Acura still delivers great value for the money,incredible reliability, and good comfort. The brand name isn't at it's strongest point right now, but that can change with the TLX(and I think it will). Acura is still more or less a household name in America.........and I believe in the brand's future.

ScottLong

That's because Acura lack an M3,RCF,LS,7 SERIES type right? It lacks a
expensive performance car and a legitimate flagship? That's what make the perception right? Because BMW make the most money from it's entry level as well. But it also have the M3/M4 and 7 Series. Which rises perception?

usdmJON

I just cant stand the new grill on the lincolns.



I think that grill is straight up obnoxious. It's like an eccentric BMW meets GTO.
And the wheels look worse than all the Acura wheels a lot of users really dislike.

Buicks grill is pretty big too but shaped better.

ttribe

I don't think you're going to get a lot of argument here about the Lincoln. The fact that Acura is left being compared to Lincoln, on the other hand, is just plain sad.

kurtatx

I appreciate the insightful comments from posters Acura competing with Buick and Lincoln, and I think I agree. That being said, if the TLX is any indication, Acura is handily beating Buick, Lincoln IMHO.

Leaving SUVs out of it, Acura sedans feel a step below Lexus, Audi, BMW, whereas the TLX somewhat ensures it is still better than Lincoln (who doesn't do anything well), Buick (who only does small small well like the Verano > ILX)

usdmJON

This^^
Lets get back to comparing Acura to Mercedes and BMW.

usdmJON

Sadly I agree. If only honda threw a turbo in the mix. I think then the ILX would have spanked the Verano.

kurtatx

Doing that would require a knockout ILX segment vehicle, IMHO. Something based on the Civic Type R maybe? I doubt it happens, and bet Acura keeps stumbling with the small car, but that's a good place to start.

kurtatx

I'm pretty sure you're right. Get me at least 200 hp standard and a Turbo with some real torque.

Black Tire

Toyota has way bigger pockets. They spent countless billions on the F1 program and didn't even make a dent in their bank accounts.

As well Toyota seems to have more passion for cars than Honda.

oonowindoo

a Simplified Answer to your complicated question is:

Lexus is a brand that knew what it wanted and achieve since day 1:
differentiate itself from Toyota, so you feel the extra premium is justified over Toyota
Going after Germans in every category
Cheaper than Germans
target different types of customers within 1 brand (ES350, IS/GS, LS all have different customer bases) vs. Acura (1 type of customer, just different ages)


Acura: Mood Swings.

SamDoe1

It's better than the beak by miles. The new Lincoln in person is beautiful and the back end is even more so. The whole design flows together and the grille, while obnoxious, still fits the design and image of the car. Acura's design language doesn't flow, the cars don't look pretty or even obnoxious. They just look cobbled together mixes of conservative with random hints of aggressiveness.

I would too but when you look at a Lincoln (not drive, look), it looks like a $40k car. The TLX simply doesn't look like it's worth the asking price. I'm sure Acura will sell tons of them, it's a good car and for the Honda loyalists, that's what matters. If I were in the market for an entry level luxury car, I'd look at the IS/GS and quickly dismiss the TLX and that's where the sales gap will be.

Acura lacks a direct competitor for the Germans in nearly every single category, that's the problem. If you're going to go after them, make something that directly competes. Lexus did it and it's worked wonders for them.

Having a halo car and performance models would help but it's not a game changer. Most makes don't make that much money (if any) off of the high end performance models.

Bingo. Targeted products rather than just random smatterings of models that no one cares about. None of them are bad but none are inspiring to drive or look at. The 3G TL did as well as it did because it was edgy at the time and it was different and it looked like it was worth the money. The TLX looks like a bloated TSX with some fancy headlights.

usdmJON

Honda was playing with a 2.0 turbo in an I'll. So I've got my fingers crossed for maybe a 2.4 making tlx power and a 2.0t around 220hp. It's a pipe dream but maybe.

AZuser

kurtatx

Have you ever looked at the Lincoln offerings? They're all horrible.

Costco

Along with most of what has already been said, they've been at it for over two decades... constantly pushing the envelope, challenging the Germans. Acura was competitive until sometime in the 2000's where it because woefully apparent to many that they were getting a fancy Honda. That doesn't sit well for the average buyer in the $40k and up segment.

The absolute last thing you would want someone to think is "is that the new Civic/Accord?" That's why Lexus killed off the HS250, so many think it's a Corolla. The ES somehow fits in that grey area where the TL manages to be successful.

AZuser

And that's your opinion. The people who are buying the cars don't agree with you.


ILX vs MKZ




RLX vs MKS





Acura wishes the ILX and RLX can sell in the same numbers as the MKZ and MKS

(and yes, I know the ILX and MKZ aren't really direct competitors but it is their entry level sedan like the ILX is for Acura)

Costco

I would take the ILX over the MKZ simply based on styling (see how that works, guys?)

But wow, those charts speak volumes!

usdmJON

MKZ starting 34
ILX starting 27

Graph is moot.

saturno_v

The Lincoln MKZ in my opinion it's gorgeous and it has a ton of presence on the road (you cannot say the same thing about the TLX) but it has some execution flaws (some fit and finish issues, the MyFord touch and the V6 engine is a bit weak and thrashy) but they can be fixed in a model update.

The aging MKS is on its way out (as its Taurus platform donor) so we do not know what it's coming to replace it yet....still the MKS (July 2013 YTD) beats the snout out of the RLX in sales (5218 vs 2292) and I do nto believe the difference is mainly fleet sales...I rarely see the MKS in rental lots (but I do see the MKZ)

So already one of the sedan in the renewed Acura lineup flopped and the small one (the ILX) is not doingt great...we will see what the TLX can do.


As the OP original question, Toyota decided to invest some serious money and it has a clear vision of the direction of its luxury brand where Honda has not...or better, Honda has maybe a clear idea and that is to compete with Buick...if you look at the Buick model range is very close to what Acura offers.

I believe Ford finally wants to invest some money to make Lincoln a Tier 1 competitor.

DEman19901

When Honda put a turbo in the RDX, that was the beginning of their downfall. I read an article years ago when a Honda engineer specifically said that the use turbos were for LAZY engineers. So therefore Honda became lazy.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

They need a clear idea of what the hell they're doing. Turbo or not just give us the same great handling, more power and goodies on the inside. Its not gimicky if everyone is offering the same features as standard. Enhance the damn driving experience and make cars entertaining. Especially if one pays 40K-50K for it.

chill_dog

I'm guessing you got your numbers transposed? If not, it makes the picture the graphs paint even worse.

charliemike

60K? Really? That's double the A4 and equal to the new IS. Out of nowhere.

Costco

No... that's correct

I didn't think the price difference was that much. I mean, okay, I can see BMW outselling Acura despite a higher price tag for similar models, but Lincoln?!?

saturno_v

60K per year for the TLX is doable...not because the car is particularly good (IMHO it isn't) but it's replacing two sedans (TL and TSX) and it's basically playing almost in the mainstream sedan market where someone interested in an optioned up Fusion for example, could give a look at the TLX...Acura lowered the bar and targeting a potentially larger audience.

But with the RLX bombed and the ILX not in very good health, Acura has a lot of riding on the TLX...

Sarlacc

another dead horse thread

H_CAR

There was nothing luxurious about the Integra and Acura has never been perfect and has always made boneheaded decisions. The Vigor was a failure, the 1st gen TL was a failure, the re-badged Izuzu SUV was a fail, and the Integra continued for 8 years without change! The best time for Acura was not the 1990's, contrary to what everyone wants to believe. 2004-2008 were Acura's best years (TL was sucessful, TSX was successful, MDX was successful, etc.)

The RDX is a great SUV and is selling well, the MDX is a great SUV and is selling well, and the TLX is a great car and should sell well. The people saying Acura only competes with Buick and Lincoln are out of their damn minds.

Agreed

AZuser

Acura also competes with Honda.

Civic > ILX
Accord > RLX

YeuEmMaiMai

a v8 offering would help, getting rid of the fwd rlx, making the tlx a v6 platform, better quality interiors.... real leather... two offering per model base and advanced.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

THIS is what happened.