What Motor Oil Do You Use for your TL?
04-23-2013, 10:24 AM
#281
Team Owner
I am a very rare one here. I use Schaeffers Supreme 9000 5w-30 with Wix or Pure One. Thinking about the mix IHC uses to use on the TL for a few changes and go back to Schaeffers, but i have alot of Schaeffers left. I have 3 - 2000-2001 F-350's Turbo diesels, 1 - 93 F150, 2 - Fox Body Mustangs and 04 TL. So it makes since for me to buy in bulk from Schaeffers with free shipping.
04-23-2013, 10:49 AM
#282
Registered Bike Offender
iTrader: (3)
Something I noticed regarding the oil life display on the MID: it only presents you with one significant figure (90% then 80%... and so on). I personally know how important significant figures are to engineers and the fact that it only has one significant figure tells me that the engineer(s) who developed the algorithm that calculates the oil life are well aware of how inaccurate it is. It literally can't be displayed with any less accuracy. Most of the time, we engineers can't win arguments of engineering principles against marketing and management folks lol.
But I must say, for the majority of car owners who don't have as much pride in owning their cars as all of you guys, it's an awesome feature since you can call and schedule your appointment right through your Nav/HFL as soon as the MID reminds you. Inaccurate measurement, but pretty cool features when they all work together! Keeping more Acura's on the road.
But I must say, for the majority of car owners who don't have as much pride in owning their cars as all of you guys, it's an awesome feature since you can call and schedule your appointment right through your Nav/HFL as soon as the MID reminds you. Inaccurate measurement, but pretty cool features when they all work together! Keeping more Acura's on the road.
04-23-2013, 10:55 AM
#283
Team Owner
Something I noticed regarding the oil life display on the MID: it only presents you with one significant figure (90% then 80%... and so on). I personally know how important significant figures are to engineers and the fact that it only has one significant figure tells me that the engineer(s) who developed the algorithm that calculates the oil life are well aware of how inaccurate it is. It literally can't be displayed with any less accuracy. Most of the time, we engineers can't win arguments of engineering principles against marketing and management folks lol.
But I must say, for the majority of car owners who don't have as much pride in owning their cars as all of you guys, it's an awesome feature since you can call and schedule your appointment right through your Nav/HFL as soon as the MID reminds you. Inaccurate measurement, but pretty cool features when they all work together! Keeping more Acura's on the road.
But I must say, for the majority of car owners who don't have as much pride in owning their cars as all of you guys, it's an awesome feature since you can call and schedule your appointment right through your Nav/HFL as soon as the MID reminds you. Inaccurate measurement, but pretty cool features when they all work together! Keeping more Acura's on the road.
People always say I think I'm smarter than the engineers that designed the car. I don't believe that at all. I do believe that my interests in the longest component life possible is drastically different than the marketing department's interest of selling lots of cars. That's why I believe we can improve upon some of Acura's recommendations such as trans fluid and motor oil and many others. If I believed these recommendations were coming straight from the engineers with longevity in mind I would just go by the manual.
Last edited by I hate cars; 04-23-2013 at 10:58 AM.
04-23-2013, 12:56 PM
#285
Instructor
Yep, rollers. One is 306 with H/C/I and other bolt ons running 12.0-12.1 and building a 331 for the other, hoping for low 11's NA. Rope rear main and flat tappet bring back memories.
04-25-2013, 02:54 PM
#286
For those using RedLine oil, some questions. There are lots of comments on OCI by mileage, but none on OCI by time:
1) Are you concerned about the increased level of ZDDP (phosphorous/ zinc) in RedLine oil damaging the CAT(s), or do you consider the improved engine protection an acceptable trade-off, or do you not believe there will be any CAT damage, or do you simply not care?
Mobil-1 0W20 = 650 Ph, 750 zinc
Mobil-1 5W30 = 800 Ph, 900 zinc
RedLine 5W30 = 1200 Ph, 1330 zinc (in an email from Dave @RL)
2) what about Mobil-1 ESP, which has a higher (than 'normal') HTHS, similar to RedLine, but with reduced ZDDP?
Mobil-1 5W30 (regular) = 800 Ph, 900 zinc, 3.1 HTHS
Mobil-1 5W30 ESP = 800 Ph, 900 zinc, 3.58 HTHS
RedLine 5W30 = 1200 Ph, 1330 zinc, 3.8 HTHS
RedLine 5W20 = ??Ph, ?? zinc, 3.3 HTHS
I do not have additional info on the RedLine oils, just what is above. And there does not appear to be a Mobil-1 5W20 ESP oil, so the 5W30 ESP may not be appropriate for the RL engine?
3) for those who drive mostly short trips or city traffic, or low yearly mileage such as < 5K miles, do you change the oil before the MID says, or wait for 1-year to change oil, regardless of which oil you are using?
1) Are you concerned about the increased level of ZDDP (phosphorous/ zinc) in RedLine oil damaging the CAT(s), or do you consider the improved engine protection an acceptable trade-off, or do you not believe there will be any CAT damage, or do you simply not care?
Mobil-1 0W20 = 650 Ph, 750 zinc
Mobil-1 5W30 = 800 Ph, 900 zinc
RedLine 5W30 = 1200 Ph, 1330 zinc (in an email from Dave @RL)
2) what about Mobil-1 ESP, which has a higher (than 'normal') HTHS, similar to RedLine, but with reduced ZDDP?
Mobil-1 5W30 (regular) = 800 Ph, 900 zinc, 3.1 HTHS
Mobil-1 5W30 ESP = 800 Ph, 900 zinc, 3.58 HTHS
RedLine 5W30 = 1200 Ph, 1330 zinc, 3.8 HTHS
RedLine 5W20 = ??Ph, ?? zinc, 3.3 HTHS
I do not have additional info on the RedLine oils, just what is above. And there does not appear to be a Mobil-1 5W20 ESP oil, so the 5W30 ESP may not be appropriate for the RL engine?
3) for those who drive mostly short trips or city traffic, or low yearly mileage such as < 5K miles, do you change the oil before the MID says, or wait for 1-year to change oil, regardless of which oil you are using?
04-25-2013, 03:01 PM
#287
For those using RedLine oil, some questions. There are lots of comments on OCI by mileage, but none on OCI by time:
1) Are you concerned about the increased level of ZDDP (phosphorous/ zinc) in RedLine oil damaging the CAT(s), or do you consider the improved engine protection an acceptable trade-off, or do you not believe there will be any CAT damage, or do you simply not care?
Mobil-1 0W20 = 650 Ph, 750 zinc
Mobil-1 5W30 = 800 Ph, 900 zinc
RedLine 5W30 = 1200 Ph, 1330 zinc (in an email from Dave @RL)
2) what about Mobil-1 ESP, which has a higher (than 'normal') HTHS, similar to RedLine, but with reduced ZDDP?
Mobil-1 5W30 (regular) = 800 Ph, 900 zinc, 3.1 HTHS
Mobil-1 5W30 ESP = 800 Ph, 900 zinc, 3.58 HTHS
RedLine 5W30 = 1200 Ph, 1330 zinc, 3.8 HTHS
RedLine 5W20 = ??Ph, ?? zinc, 3.3 HTHS
I do not have additional info on the RedLine oils, just what is above. And there does not appear to be a Mobil-1 5W20 ESP oil, so the 5W30 ESP may not be appropriate for the RL engine?
3) for those who drive mostly short trips or city traffic, or low yearly mileage such as < 5K miles, do you change the oil before the MID says, or wait for 1-year to change oil, regardless of which oil you are using?
1) Are you concerned about the increased level of ZDDP (phosphorous/ zinc) in RedLine oil damaging the CAT(s), or do you consider the improved engine protection an acceptable trade-off, or do you not believe there will be any CAT damage, or do you simply not care?
Mobil-1 0W20 = 650 Ph, 750 zinc
Mobil-1 5W30 = 800 Ph, 900 zinc
RedLine 5W30 = 1200 Ph, 1330 zinc (in an email from Dave @RL)
2) what about Mobil-1 ESP, which has a higher (than 'normal') HTHS, similar to RedLine, but with reduced ZDDP?
Mobil-1 5W30 (regular) = 800 Ph, 900 zinc, 3.1 HTHS
Mobil-1 5W30 ESP = 800 Ph, 900 zinc, 3.58 HTHS
RedLine 5W30 = 1200 Ph, 1330 zinc, 3.8 HTHS
RedLine 5W20 = ??Ph, ?? zinc, 3.3 HTHS
I do not have additional info on the RedLine oils, just what is above. And there does not appear to be a Mobil-1 5W20 ESP oil, so the 5W30 ESP may not be appropriate for the RL engine?
3) for those who drive mostly short trips or city traffic, or low yearly mileage such as < 5K miles, do you change the oil before the MID says, or wait for 1-year to change oil, regardless of which oil you are using?
04-25-2013, 05:36 PM
#288
Team Owner
For those using RedLine oil, some questions. There are lots of comments on OCI by mileage, but none on OCI by time:
1) Are you concerned about the increased level of ZDDP (phosphorous/ zinc) in RedLine oil damaging the CAT(s), or do you consider the improved engine protection an acceptable trade-off, or do you not believe there will be any CAT damage, or do you simply not care?
Mobil-1 0W20 = 650 Ph, 750 zinc
Mobil-1 5W30 = 800 Ph, 900 zinc
RedLine 5W30 = 1200 Ph, 1330 zinc (in an email from Dave @RL)
2) what about Mobil-1 ESP, which has a higher (than 'normal') HTHS, similar to RedLine, but with reduced ZDDP?
Mobil-1 5W30 (regular) = 800 Ph, 900 zinc, 3.1 HTHS
Mobil-1 5W30 ESP = 800 Ph, 900 zinc, 3.58 HTHS
RedLine 5W30 = 1200 Ph, 1330 zinc, 3.8 HTHS
RedLine 5W20 = ??Ph, ?? zinc, 3.3 HTHS
I do not have additional info on the RedLine oils, just what is above. And there does not appear to be a Mobil-1 5W20 ESP oil, so the 5W30 ESP may not be appropriate for the RL engine?
3) for those who drive mostly short trips or city traffic, or low yearly mileage such as < 5K miles, do you change the oil before the MID says, or wait for 1-year to change oil, regardless of which oil you are using?
1) Are you concerned about the increased level of ZDDP (phosphorous/ zinc) in RedLine oil damaging the CAT(s), or do you consider the improved engine protection an acceptable trade-off, or do you not believe there will be any CAT damage, or do you simply not care?
Mobil-1 0W20 = 650 Ph, 750 zinc
Mobil-1 5W30 = 800 Ph, 900 zinc
RedLine 5W30 = 1200 Ph, 1330 zinc (in an email from Dave @RL)
2) what about Mobil-1 ESP, which has a higher (than 'normal') HTHS, similar to RedLine, but with reduced ZDDP?
Mobil-1 5W30 (regular) = 800 Ph, 900 zinc, 3.1 HTHS
Mobil-1 5W30 ESP = 800 Ph, 900 zinc, 3.58 HTHS
RedLine 5W30 = 1200 Ph, 1330 zinc, 3.8 HTHS
RedLine 5W20 = ??Ph, ?? zinc, 3.3 HTHS
I do not have additional info on the RedLine oils, just what is above. And there does not appear to be a Mobil-1 5W20 ESP oil, so the 5W30 ESP may not be appropriate for the RL engine?
3) for those who drive mostly short trips or city traffic, or low yearly mileage such as < 5K miles, do you change the oil before the MID says, or wait for 1-year to change oil, regardless of which oil you are using?
Very good question. Finally something worth talking about.
We all know ZDDP allowable limits were lowered because they might be toxic to catalytic converters. That's why some high performance oils don't carry a current API seal of approval.
These additives bond to the metal surface and protect the engine when you lose the hydrodynamic lubrication (the crankshaft floating in the main bearings and for example. The rings to cylinders and flat tappet cams; basically any kind of sliding wear will benefit from higher ZDDP levels. It's a cheap and very effective anti-wear/friction additive. Think about when you first start the engine. It only takes a second or less to get oil pressure and everything is fully lubed in about a second or less. However, it's still nice to have that zinc to protect wear surfaces when you first turn the key.
Same with moly. Redline has a lot of moly which is more of an anti friction than anti wear but they're one in the same. This is why another factor in power and fuel economy. Lighter oils will usually help mpg (usually immeasurable) but the higher ZDDP and moly content can help level the playing field as well.
Back to the cats, yes, ZDDP can cause an early death. However, it can't hurt the cats if the engine is not burning oil. I went to an oil with high ZDDP back when it had under 20,000 miles on it. It just turned 118,000 miles so nearly 100,000 miles with high ZDDP and no converter or 02 problems.
You can get oil into the cats in a couple ways. Rings, valve seals, and PCV. I've never run a catch can but that's one way to prevent the PCV issue. Redline has a super low NOACK value (it's tendency to evaporate through the PCV) so I'm covered there.
If oil is getting past the rings you have larger problems than the cats to worry about.
Valve seals, same thing. It's extremely rare that our engines burn oil. It's pretty much a non issue.
Talking to industry insiders, the lower ZDDP levels were actually in anticipation for a different style of converter with slightly different chemical (metal) compositions, not what we run. They were being proactive with it.
Cars ran converters for many years before the zinc levels were reduced and that's back when they were more likely to burn oil.
As long as your car is not a mosquito fogger higher zinc is a non issue. I know this looks like a 5yr old wrote it but I'm in a hurry, maybe I can clarify later.
Oh yeah, one last thing, higher HTHS also reduces the chances of oil burning, just something to think about.
04-25-2013, 10:01 PM
#290
just something to add
mobil 1 high mileage 5W30 has same HTHS as M1 ESP.
and it's only $25 for 5qt jug lol that's what i use in winter.
and i do NOT do extended oil change interval. that's dumb
mobil 1 high mileage 5W30 has same HTHS as M1 ESP.
and it's only $25 for 5qt jug lol that's what i use in winter.
and i do NOT do extended oil change interval. that's dumb
04-26-2013, 06:21 PM
#291
5W30 HM 3.3 HTHS
5W30 ESP 3.58 HTHS
10W30 HM 3.5 HTHS
10W40 HM 3.9 HTHS
So yes, close, but not quite.
04-26-2013, 06:40 PM
#292
Very good question. Finally something worth talking about.
We all know ZDDP allowable limits were lowered because they might be toxic to catalytic converters. That's why some high performance oils don't carry a current API seal of approval.
... Cars ran converters for many years before the zinc levels were reduced and that's back when they were more likely to burn oil. ...
We all know ZDDP allowable limits were lowered because they might be toxic to catalytic converters. That's why some high performance oils don't carry a current API seal of approval.
... Cars ran converters for many years before the zinc levels were reduced and that's back when they were more likely to burn oil. ...
But so as not to confuse anyone, my car is a 2009 RDX turbo @35K miles, not an RL. I want to use the RL oil for the turbo, and my only real concern is that the turbo may force some oil mist back into the intake through the PVC valve - so I am also going to change the PCV, and thereafter each year - car gets 8K miles/ year. I am also considering an oil catch tank, but am uncertain how to hook it up for a turbo engine, but mostly just where I can fit it under the hood.
However, "I hate cars", I think I must respond to your quoted comment above. Yes, my 1998 Chevy was originally using SL rated oil, with higher ZDDP levels, but the CAT was only warrantied for 80K miles or 8 years. True, it currently has 115K miles on the OEM CAT, but perhaps that is because I have always used the currently SM and now SN rated oil, and the engine does not seem to burn oil, but does leak some (oil pan).
I do not have my RDX manual handy, but I believe that the reason car makers lowered the ZDDP was because they were forced to warrany the CAT for 150K miles and (unknown) time.
So instead of building better CATs, they forced the oil manufs to make crapier oil, so that your engine dies sooner, but the CAT lasts longer.
For myself, I was waiting until my RDX neared the end of its warranty period, before using RL oil. And if the CAT dies sooner, hopefully the engine/ turbo will not.
BTW, I just bought this afternoon some RL 5W30 at CARQUEST, for only $8.76 per quart. Their price for RL ATF is similar (but they do not have the LW Racing, just the 'regular' Racing ATF).
CHEERS.
Last edited by dcmodels; 04-26-2013 at 06:45 PM.
04-26-2013, 07:14 PM
#293
ONE MORE QUESTION: sulfated ash percentage on RedLine oil? would there be any, or only an insignificant amount, since the oil is fully synthetic?
Acura has 'mandated' an HTO-6 oil for the RDX turbo, because of the low ash content. And for the Mobil HM and ESP comparison, sorry forgot to include above:
Mobil 5W30 HM ash=not given, always a bad sign
Mobil 5W30 ESP ash=0.6%
Mobil 5W30 EP ash=0.8% HT0-6
Mobil 5W30 'regular' ash=0.8%
Mobil 0W30 AFE ash=0.9% HT0-6
Mobil 0W40 ash=1.2%
And I have always wondered why Acura specified the 'regular' Mobil 5W30 rather than the ESP Mobil 5W30, for the RDX turbo engine? I wonder what is really different between the two oils?
---eof
Acura has 'mandated' an HTO-6 oil for the RDX turbo, because of the low ash content. And for the Mobil HM and ESP comparison, sorry forgot to include above:
Mobil 5W30 HM ash=not given, always a bad sign
Mobil 5W30 ESP ash=0.6%
Mobil 5W30 EP ash=0.8% HT0-6
Mobil 5W30 'regular' ash=0.8%
Mobil 0W30 AFE ash=0.9% HT0-6
Mobil 0W40 ash=1.2%
And I have always wondered why Acura specified the 'regular' Mobil 5W30 rather than the ESP Mobil 5W30, for the RDX turbo engine? I wonder what is really different between the two oils?
---eof
04-26-2013, 08:21 PM
#294
08-07-2013, 02:13 AM
#295
Has anyone seen this 5W30 oil comparison WHITE-PAPER by AmsOil?
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf
I am wondering about the comparison of oil deposit formation: THERMO-OXIDATION ENGINE OIL SIMULATION TEST
because Honda/ Acura specifically created the HT0-6 test for Mobil-1 oil for the RDX turbo engine, for low ash deposits under high-heat turbo operation. RedLine oil is not that much worse (in the comparison) than Mobil-1 EP, but I wonder:
1) is Mobil-1 5W30 EP worse than Mobil-1 5W30 "regular"l. The "regular" is not tested, and is the specific oil that Acura recommended for the RDX?
2) is this a valid test for real world turbo operation, does it matter, what is actually being tested, is this test a valid prediction of turbo/ engine life, etc??
3) is the higher deposit rating for RedLine because of the higher level of Phos/ Zinc? what about Mobil-1 EP, which does not have these high levels of ZDDP?
========
Anyway, just wondering if anyone has any comments about this comparison white-paper?
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf
I am wondering about the comparison of oil deposit formation: THERMO-OXIDATION ENGINE OIL SIMULATION TEST
because Honda/ Acura specifically created the HT0-6 test for Mobil-1 oil for the RDX turbo engine, for low ash deposits under high-heat turbo operation. RedLine oil is not that much worse (in the comparison) than Mobil-1 EP, but I wonder:
1) is Mobil-1 5W30 EP worse than Mobil-1 5W30 "regular"l. The "regular" is not tested, and is the specific oil that Acura recommended for the RDX?
2) is this a valid test for real world turbo operation, does it matter, what is actually being tested, is this test a valid prediction of turbo/ engine life, etc??
3) is the higher deposit rating for RedLine because of the higher level of Phos/ Zinc? what about Mobil-1 EP, which does not have these high levels of ZDDP?
========
Anyway, just wondering if anyone has any comments about this comparison white-paper?
08-07-2013, 04:31 PM
#298
Team Owner
Has anyone seen this 5W30 oil comparison WHITE-PAPER by AmsOil?
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf
I am wondering about the comparison of oil deposit formation: THERMO-OXIDATION ENGINE OIL SIMULATION TEST
because Honda/ Acura specifically created the HT0-6 test for Mobil-1 oil for the RDX turbo engine, for low ash deposits under high-heat turbo operation. RedLine oil is not that much worse (in the comparison) than Mobil-1 EP, but I wonder:
1) is Mobil-1 5W30 EP worse than Mobil-1 5W30 "regular"l. The "regular" is not tested, and is the specific oil that Acura recommended for the RDX?
2) is this a valid test for real world turbo operation, does it matter, what is actually being tested, is this test a valid prediction of turbo/ engine life, etc??
3) is the higher deposit rating for RedLine because of the higher level of Phos/ Zinc? what about Mobil-1 EP, which does not have these high levels of ZDDP?
========
Anyway, just wondering if anyone has any comments about this comparison white-paper?
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf
I am wondering about the comparison of oil deposit formation: THERMO-OXIDATION ENGINE OIL SIMULATION TEST
because Honda/ Acura specifically created the HT0-6 test for Mobil-1 oil for the RDX turbo engine, for low ash deposits under high-heat turbo operation. RedLine oil is not that much worse (in the comparison) than Mobil-1 EP, but I wonder:
1) is Mobil-1 5W30 EP worse than Mobil-1 5W30 "regular"l. The "regular" is not tested, and is the specific oil that Acura recommended for the RDX?
2) is this a valid test for real world turbo operation, does it matter, what is actually being tested, is this test a valid prediction of turbo/ engine life, etc??
3) is the higher deposit rating for RedLine because of the higher level of Phos/ Zinc? what about Mobil-1 EP, which does not have these high levels of ZDDP?
========
Anyway, just wondering if anyone has any comments about this comparison white-paper?
I've torn apart enough high hp turbo engines, some with high mileage to know that Redline leaves almost zero deposits in areas like the ring land area where most oils including synthetics leave behind deposits of base oil that burned off.
That test would be more useful in predicting combustion chamber deposits but since Redline has a very low NOACK value and a high HTHSv, there's not enough oil getting into the combustion chambers for deposit formation to be a problem.
My car has seen only 2 oils since it was brand new (well, I ran a 0w-20 in it for one OCI when temps were very cold). Amsoil ACD straight 30w with lots of ZDDP up to about 75k and Redline from that point to its current 121k. It's also only had premium fuel and only from Shell or Chevron when possible. When I did the valve adjustment I took a look in he combustion chambers with a scope and I was amazed at the lack of deposits at 113,000 miles. A lot of this is attributed to the gasoline and a healthy engine management system but there were certainly no deposits from the oil. There were almost no deposits at all.
08-07-2013, 04:54 PM
#299
takin care of Business in
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HOLY shit....
are we still DISCUSSING? I bet IHC is tired of typing the same thing over and over again...
take a nice oil a decent filter and a resonable OCI and call it a day....
Mobil1/Mobil1 EP/Redline/Amsoil/Penn Ultra and all great oils....add a RP/M1 EP filter and call it a day....
Redline + RP filter = OCI of 7500 miles
any other oil mentioned + either filter = OCI of 5000 miles
are we still DISCUSSING? I bet IHC is tired of typing the same thing over and over again...
take a nice oil a decent filter and a resonable OCI and call it a day....
Mobil1/Mobil1 EP/Redline/Amsoil/Penn Ultra and all great oils....add a RP/M1 EP filter and call it a day....
Redline + RP filter = OCI of 7500 miles
any other oil mentioned + either filter = OCI of 5000 miles
08-07-2013, 05:15 PM
#300
Team Owner
Lol. You're right. Knowing that the engine will outlast the car on any oil and filter yet arguing over what's "best" is for the OCD people like myself.
The other thing I rarely bring up is my bad luck with cars. Part of the reason I run what I think is the best is because if something can go wrong, it probably will. With my luck I would severely overheat the engine for the first time ever the day I switch over to a regular oil.
I think all of these oil threads need to have the disclaimer at the beginning that the engine will last practically forever on any oil and filter while following the MID intervals. I assume everyone knows that and I think most do but you never know.
The other thing I rarely bring up is my bad luck with cars. Part of the reason I run what I think is the best is because if something can go wrong, it probably will. With my luck I would severely overheat the engine for the first time ever the day I switch over to a regular oil.
I think all of these oil threads need to have the disclaimer at the beginning that the engine will last practically forever on any oil and filter while following the MID intervals. I assume everyone knows that and I think most do but you never know.
08-10-2013, 06:56 AM
#302
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (3)
Ive just been using whatever 5w20 synthetic oil is on sale at autozone but I think Ill switch to redline after I put the supercharger on, which will be my next oil change. What weight should I get? Ill be in New York and North Carolina over the winter so there will be some fairly cold starts
08-10-2013, 08:30 AM
#303
Team Owner
5w-30 synthetic will work fine down to -20F. Redline's 5w-20 is one to consider if your winters are really harsh. It's very close to 30wt in kinematic viscosity and has a higher HTHS than most 30wts anyway. I'm making this too complicated already, 5w-30 year round will work in 99% of the North American climates.
07-03-2014, 09:29 AM
#313
I think it's known that any oil and filter combo changed at reasonable intervals will lead to a long life and a relatively clean engine. The rest is for the people who want better protection than most.
I can't remember his test. Do you have a link or do you remember what he was testing for? Hopefully it wasn't just the adbv. Hopefully it wasn't a test of liquid passing through the filter via gravity.
The problem with Blackstone spectral analysis is they can't "see" larger particles. This is the ultimate flaw of this kind of testing. No one has to believe me, please use google and you'll see it's a fact that people choose to ignore. It's just not useful in any way for determining a filter's filtering ability or for wear metals. What good is looking at wear metals in a test that can only see the small particles and where oxidation that's cleaned by an oil that cleans well like Mobil One and Redline shows up as dangerously high iron. Mobil One was unfairly condemned because of this. If you want to see how your engine is actually wearing or how well your filter is filtering, pay the additional money for a particle count. This is the only accurate way of determining wear and filtration other than tearing down the engine.
It's not splitting hairs when a filter has the potential to disintegrate while in use and has done so in the past. They also have a tendency to develop holes in the media, allowing unfiltered oil to pass through. It's not splitting hairs when you pull an engine apart and see what a little debris will do to rod and main journals and their bearings, along with cylinder walls and rings. When clearances get down to a few ten thousanths of an inch during operation, especially hard high rpm operation, filtration is important.
No matter who is right, the synthetic media filters offer the best of both worlds so there's no compromise or choose flow over filtration. About filtration, you can have a more restrictive filter and it will raise oil pressure. Why does it raise oil pressure, our pumps are a positive displacement pump. They will pump the same volume of oil with each engine revolution regardless of restrictions. Oil pressure is raised enough to keep flow consistent through the filter. That's assuming the filter is a restriction which is is usually not. In fact, the filter is usually invisible to the pressure guage, oil passes through it with no additional pressure on the inlet side and no pressure drop on the outlet side. When you get into the rod bearings you can easily have running clearances in the .0005" range as rod journals egg shape. That little "irrelevant" piece of debris that got past the filter is now very relevant. Flow is great but the journal bearing side clearances are going to ultimately limit flow through the bearing and being of a positive displacement design oil pump, a filter with an anti drainback valve, and cam lobes in oil baths in the heads, there is absolutely no worries about how quickly oil gets to the farthest parts of the engine during startup. It's under a second. That's why I laugh when people state warming the car up for 15 minutes to make sure oil gets everywhere it's supposed to go. If it's not there in the first second or so it's probably never going to get there. No filter on the market will ever come close to starving a TL for oil, none, not even close to starving for oil. I've seen people put guages before and after the filter, any old filter and some great filters and once hot the filter is invisible most of the time, no pressure differential. The Amsoil EAO synthetic glass media did offer a very low pressure differential when cold as well. Flow is not a problem. Even with Fram unless it decides to come apart lol.
Let's not forget, all filters have a bypass valve so you will never starve the engine for oil.
Oil is not supposed and does not flow through the cardboard endcaps. The endcaps purpose is to support the media and seal it.
One thing that's not mentioned is the traditional cellulose media is affected by moisture. The pores open up and allow more crap through in the presence of water which all engines produce.
There are the other materials that make a great filter. RP for example has the glass media that filters and flows better than just about anything out there. Along with being wire reinforced and with metal endcaps, the media is never going to develop holes or collapse or leak. Silicone antidrainback valve. Thicker outer can than most, a rubber O-ring that seals up better, a beefy bypass valve that's set a little higher than most stock filters because the media will hold up to higher pressure differentials.
And again, this better filtration is not something I made up. Search for beta ratios and you'll come to your own conclusions of what filters the best.
Particle counts and beta ratios if you care about the truth.
I can't remember his test. Do you have a link or do you remember what he was testing for? Hopefully it wasn't just the adbv. Hopefully it wasn't a test of liquid passing through the filter via gravity.
The problem with Blackstone spectral analysis is they can't "see" larger particles. This is the ultimate flaw of this kind of testing. No one has to believe me, please use google and you'll see it's a fact that people choose to ignore. It's just not useful in any way for determining a filter's filtering ability or for wear metals. What good is looking at wear metals in a test that can only see the small particles and where oxidation that's cleaned by an oil that cleans well like Mobil One and Redline shows up as dangerously high iron. Mobil One was unfairly condemned because of this. If you want to see how your engine is actually wearing or how well your filter is filtering, pay the additional money for a particle count. This is the only accurate way of determining wear and filtration other than tearing down the engine.
It's not splitting hairs when a filter has the potential to disintegrate while in use and has done so in the past. They also have a tendency to develop holes in the media, allowing unfiltered oil to pass through. It's not splitting hairs when you pull an engine apart and see what a little debris will do to rod and main journals and their bearings, along with cylinder walls and rings. When clearances get down to a few ten thousanths of an inch during operation, especially hard high rpm operation, filtration is important.
No matter who is right, the synthetic media filters offer the best of both worlds so there's no compromise or choose flow over filtration. About filtration, you can have a more restrictive filter and it will raise oil pressure. Why does it raise oil pressure, our pumps are a positive displacement pump. They will pump the same volume of oil with each engine revolution regardless of restrictions. Oil pressure is raised enough to keep flow consistent through the filter. That's assuming the filter is a restriction which is is usually not. In fact, the filter is usually invisible to the pressure guage, oil passes through it with no additional pressure on the inlet side and no pressure drop on the outlet side. When you get into the rod bearings you can easily have running clearances in the .0005" range as rod journals egg shape. That little "irrelevant" piece of debris that got past the filter is now very relevant. Flow is great but the journal bearing side clearances are going to ultimately limit flow through the bearing and being of a positive displacement design oil pump, a filter with an anti drainback valve, and cam lobes in oil baths in the heads, there is absolutely no worries about how quickly oil gets to the farthest parts of the engine during startup. It's under a second. That's why I laugh when people state warming the car up for 15 minutes to make sure oil gets everywhere it's supposed to go. If it's not there in the first second or so it's probably never going to get there. No filter on the market will ever come close to starving a TL for oil, none, not even close to starving for oil. I've seen people put guages before and after the filter, any old filter and some great filters and once hot the filter is invisible most of the time, no pressure differential. The Amsoil EAO synthetic glass media did offer a very low pressure differential when cold as well. Flow is not a problem. Even with Fram unless it decides to come apart lol.
Let's not forget, all filters have a bypass valve so you will never starve the engine for oil.
Oil is not supposed and does not flow through the cardboard endcaps. The endcaps purpose is to support the media and seal it.
One thing that's not mentioned is the traditional cellulose media is affected by moisture. The pores open up and allow more crap through in the presence of water which all engines produce.
There are the other materials that make a great filter. RP for example has the glass media that filters and flows better than just about anything out there. Along with being wire reinforced and with metal endcaps, the media is never going to develop holes or collapse or leak. Silicone antidrainback valve. Thicker outer can than most, a rubber O-ring that seals up better, a beefy bypass valve that's set a little higher than most stock filters because the media will hold up to higher pressure differentials.
And again, this better filtration is not something I made up. Search for beta ratios and you'll come to your own conclusions of what filters the best.
Particle counts and beta ratios if you care about the truth.
i intend to maintain better than my 2000 mk4 2.slow jetta
i already know to stay away from cardboard (cheapo) filters from all manufacturers.
will any of the glass media filters like from RP break off or anything ?
07-03-2014, 09:34 AM
#314
as for oil, i'll probably stick w/ mobil 1 5w-20 thats specified on the cap
bc everyone drives differently, the one thing that doesnt lie is the oil level on teh dipstick ....... i typically change my oil when its low
alot of forum members change it religiously at 5k, but there's never harm in going off the dipstick right ?
bc everyone drives differently, the one thing that doesnt lie is the oil level on teh dipstick ....... i typically change my oil when its low
alot of forum members change it religiously at 5k, but there's never harm in going off the dipstick right ?
07-03-2014, 09:45 AM
#315
takin care of Business in
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as for oil, i'll probably stick w/ mobil 1 5w-20 thats specified on the cap
bc everyone drives differently, the one thing that doesnt lie is the oil level on teh dipstick ....... i typically change my oil when its low
alot of forum members change it religiously at 5k, but there's never harm in going off the dipstick right ?
bc everyone drives differently, the one thing that doesnt lie is the oil level on teh dipstick ....... i typically change my oil when its low
alot of forum members change it religiously at 5k, but there's never harm in going off the dipstick right ?
your dipstick level will go low if your engine is burning oil, and thats a whole another issue in itself....pick an oil, pick a mileage and stick to it IMO
07-03-2014, 10:01 AM
#317
takin care of Business in
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I just rolled 180K on my 2005 TL...
I have used the following oils:
Pennzoil Platinum with Fram filter ~26 bucks for oil change - 5w20 - 80K-105K miles
Valvoline with Fram filter ~26 bucks for oil change - 5W20 - 105K-115K miles
Mobil1 EP with Mobil1 EP filter ~37 bucks for oil change - 5w20 - 115K-150K miles
Redline with Fram Filter ~65 bucks for an oil change - 5w20 - 150K-160K miles
Redline with RP Filter ~75bucks for an oil change - 5w20 - 160K-165K miles
Mobil1 EP with Mobil1 EP filter - ~37 bucks for an oil change - 5w30 - 165K - current
I have kept a religious 5K oil change interval....I think for the most part it wont matter whether you use Pennzoil Platinum or Royal purple or some other good name brand oil if you keep the OCI at 5K and a decent filter....
Just look at the viscosity and decide for 5w20/5w30...like the Redline oil is thicker and hence the 5w20 is almost as thick as the 5w30 of the mobil1 EP....as the mileage goes up, you want a little more protection....
I like the mobil1 EP and I think am gonna stick to it because it comes with a mobil1 EP filter which is a good filter (almost 12 bucks worth) and the 5qts of the oil for $37 which is not bad every 5K miles....
Here are the pix of the heads at 150-160K miles....looks like it just rolled off the lot....
IMG_20130627_150104 by Anil Sadhwani, on Flickr
IMG_20130627_150120 by Anil Sadhwani, on Flickr
I have used the following oils:
Pennzoil Platinum with Fram filter ~26 bucks for oil change - 5w20 - 80K-105K miles
Valvoline with Fram filter ~26 bucks for oil change - 5W20 - 105K-115K miles
Mobil1 EP with Mobil1 EP filter ~37 bucks for oil change - 5w20 - 115K-150K miles
Redline with Fram Filter ~65 bucks for an oil change - 5w20 - 150K-160K miles
Redline with RP Filter ~75bucks for an oil change - 5w20 - 160K-165K miles
Mobil1 EP with Mobil1 EP filter - ~37 bucks for an oil change - 5w30 - 165K - current
I have kept a religious 5K oil change interval....I think for the most part it wont matter whether you use Pennzoil Platinum or Royal purple or some other good name brand oil if you keep the OCI at 5K and a decent filter....
Just look at the viscosity and decide for 5w20/5w30...like the Redline oil is thicker and hence the 5w20 is almost as thick as the 5w30 of the mobil1 EP....as the mileage goes up, you want a little more protection....
I like the mobil1 EP and I think am gonna stick to it because it comes with a mobil1 EP filter which is a good filter (almost 12 bucks worth) and the 5qts of the oil for $37 which is not bad every 5K miles....
Here are the pix of the heads at 150-160K miles....looks like it just rolled off the lot....
IMG_20130627_150104 by Anil Sadhwani, on FlickrIMG_20130627_150120 by Anil Sadhwani, on Flickr
07-03-2014, 02:33 PM
#319
Team Owner
I wish I still had my valve adjustment pictures but that phone is long gone. I might have them on my camera. It was by far the cleanest I've ever seen at that mileage. Everything was still shiny and looked as if someone dumped oil on a fresh, never started engine. I used Amsoil ATD straight 30wt and then Redline 5w-30 which is also a straight 30. The straight weight oils seem to keep the engine considerably cleaner as well as protect better. That's all I can really think of because Mobil One has one of the best detergent/additive packages but I haven't seen an engine run on Mobil One that's been even close to as clean as mine.
Mobil keeps an engine plenty clean, clean enough that there's no performance loss or more wear. The super cleanliness I talk about is mostly cosmetic but it's nice to see it so clean.
And changing the oil when it's low? That would be never in my car. If it gets low quick enough so that the change is on time, it's burning too much oil. If the car is not burning or leaking excessively you're going way too long.
Mobil keeps an engine plenty clean, clean enough that there's no performance loss or more wear. The super cleanliness I talk about is mostly cosmetic but it's nice to see it so clean.
And changing the oil when it's low? That would be never in my car. If it gets low quick enough so that the change is on time, it's burning too much oil. If the car is not burning or leaking excessively you're going way too long.
07-03-2014, 03:01 PM
#320
Team Owner
Is that how they're marketing it now? Lol. That has been going on for many, many years. It's nothing special, it's one way of making a PAO synthetic. Look for one that uses an ester POE base oil. Then the cost is finally justified over a dino. I just wouldn't pay the money for a PAO grp IV syn when the regular oils perform almost as good if not just as good.
I hear people say they love an oil all the time but why? It's not going to give more than 1hp in the same weight from the best to the worst. The engine is not going to self destruct in under 200,000 miles on even the worst SM/SN oils. It's not going to run any different. Noise is about the only thing you might notice. It comes down to wear reduction, and cleanliness which take a lot of miles to notice. I did my research on the oil and fuel to run in this car when I bought it brand new and based on racing experience but it was just a guess. Now that it has 126,000 miles and a valvetrain that looks brand new that was literally barely broken in I can see that I guessed correctly.
A lot of people might be surprised to see how little of a difference you'll feel between a 20w-50 and 0w-20 in a normal climate especially once warm and that's going to have much more of an effect than a different brand in the same weight class. I don't suggest it but I bet if you poured a 20w-50 into someone's TL without them knowing, it would take a while before they noticed a difference. It would be less of a difference in the summertime than letting 10psi out if the tires.
I hear people say they love an oil all the time but why? It's not going to give more than 1hp in the same weight from the best to the worst. The engine is not going to self destruct in under 200,000 miles on even the worst SM/SN oils. It's not going to run any different. Noise is about the only thing you might notice. It comes down to wear reduction, and cleanliness which take a lot of miles to notice. I did my research on the oil and fuel to run in this car when I bought it brand new and based on racing experience but it was just a guess. Now that it has 126,000 miles and a valvetrain that looks brand new that was literally barely broken in I can see that I guessed correctly.
A lot of people might be surprised to see how little of a difference you'll feel between a 20w-50 and 0w-20 in a normal climate especially once warm and that's going to have much more of an effect than a different brand in the same weight class. I don't suggest it but I bet if you poured a 20w-50 into someone's TL without them knowing, it would take a while before they noticed a difference. It would be less of a difference in the summertime than letting 10psi out if the tires.