I hate cars

I'm getting ready to pick up some Dynaudio MW182s to put in my doors soon. They're only 3" deep so I can flush mount without modding the door card or cutting on the side impact beam.

As I've said, I'm very happy with the system as is but I've been driving with the door panel off for a couple days and can't get over how much excursion the 6.5s have with a 70hz/24db highpass. At full volume on certain songs it looks very close to an inch of travel. The midbass out of these things is just amazing for a little 6.5" and they never get muddy or show any signs of stress. I had no idea just how hard I was pushing them and I'm afraid I'm close to bottoming them. I kind of wish I had never pulled the panel off and watched them. The 650 is truly the best midbass I've ever owned or heard.

So a pair of Dyn 10s will have 2.5mm more one way excursion for a total of 13mm one way vs 10.5mm for the 650 and double the cone area. They should require less than half the excursion for the same output with nearly 3x the output potential or the ability to get just as loud but at 50hz vs 70hz.

The door itself should be very easy, I've talked to a member who has already done it. My biggest concern is going to be rattles. The 650 has great output and it's nearly impossible to get rid of the rattles already. I can't imagine how bad a 10" must be. The doors are already heavily deadened as are the door cards. I'm guessing this is going to take an unconventional approach. Maybe adding screws to the door card wherever I can hide them. If anyone has any suggestions for rattles, I'm all ears.

The other option is under the dash IB facing down. I need them to play up to 200hz and preferably 300hz to mate to the midrange and I have no idea how they will sound completely off axis shooting into the floor. I would stuff the dash with some sort of sound absorbing material so it won't blow straight through or rattle.

So, 10 midbass in the doors, good idea or not? Better yet, anyone with experience? Jerry, any suggestions? I'm not totally opposed to running a pair of 650s in each door but that would require more mods than the 10s.

To anyone wondering why I'm skipping the 8s, it's because the displacement is similar to the 6.5". The 6.5" has 10.5mm of total excursion, the 8" has 7.5mm for similar displacement.

The overall goal is to not stress the midbass as much. So far, there are no problems at all but it would be nice to be able to cross a little lower if I ever chose to and to not be so close to the mechanical limits.

pohljm

I would like to see you do the 10's! Dropping another 6.5 in there where the foam block is would be pretty simple too, but I really think I would like the stock look of the door panel with just the single driver. rattles you can always work on, plus I think a single sheet of 1/4"+ closed cell foam sandwiched in there would do wonders.

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

I have nothing to add, but didnt you just put new Dyns in a year ago?

I am also subbing because I am interested in the fabrication work you will need to do

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Sub'd for your fab work and pics. If it turns out easy and nice, I might have to play with a 10 or 8.

Also, here's what I did to my panel because with the CLD tiles + MLV + CCF there was no way the panel was going back on and staying tight. I put screws where the arrows point. It's underneath the door and you can't see them at all. Really tightens the panel down there near the speaker and seals it up (not completely...but ya know lol).




Do you have any pics of your door card? I wanna see how much deadener you have compared to mine. Mine doesn't really rattle too much, but then again my 6.5's probably don't have the excursion of yours, let alone the 182's. The only place I get rattles is up near the CF trim and above. Mine loves to rattle up there where it wraps around the window and sits in place. I need to stick more deadener and glue some of my left over CCF in there and shut it up

stevemk07

For rattles I recommend the stock speakers! Those speakers are going to be prone to causing rattles

I hate cars

Luckily one member has done it already with the Audio Technology 9" which looks to be about the same diameter as the Dyn 10" and the Dyn is only 3" deep vs 4.5" deep so it should be pretty easy. He told me the fabrication involved and it seems extremely easy to do. I believe he's a member here but it's probably obvious who he is on DIYMA.

TM, that's exactly the kind of thing I have planned. Definitely going to remove the factory grills as well. I looked at displacement and the 10" will literally have almost 3x the displacement.

The 650s are weird in that they seem to reproduce exactly what's fed into them so excursion gets crazy pretty easily. The midbasses I've run in the past seem to be less efficient down low or something was going on becuase I could feed them a lot of power and excursion was never like this. These 6.5s actually play 70hz with a lot of authority. I unplugged the subs and it's amazing how good it sounds without them. Sometimes I wonder if the MS8 isn't doing something funny because playing rap through them, it doesn't seem like you're missing out on a whole lot without the subs. Just by ear alone it sounds more like a 50hz highpass. They have the lowest Fs I've experienced on a speaker this small at 39hz. Maybe that's why they play low easily?

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

lol

So you're going to remove the speaker grill and put some acoustic cloth in there or something like we were talking about? I haven't tried driving with the panels off to see just how much the sound blocks, but I'm sure it's quite a bit.

Hopefully the MS-8 will do some wonders for my setup too. I'm interested to see what it can do. I get it today! Shipped out VERY quickly from JBL. Probably won't..well...I dunno, but I might not set it up quite yet as my BLD and all my new cables are coming next week. If our signal is too weak then there's really no point yet.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

That is A LOT of air moving in the door. Potential issues I see:

1) rattles. That door will have to be re-enforced like none other and the door card will likely buzz in all kinds of places you never thought you would get buzzes.

2) If you don't modify the grill you only have ~6" diameter of opening for pressure to escape, negating much of the benefit of the larger cone area.

3) With that much energy up to 300Hz in the door I would guess the depth of your stage will collapse a fair amount.

I tried to do my 6.5" midbasses under dash and just couldn't find room (especially on pass side due to blower motor). Mid-bass doesn't need to be on axis as long as path lengths are the same (or stinkin close).

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Matt, maybe I'm looking at the wrong brochure or an old one or something, but the 650 looks like it has an FS of 49hz. Either way, I wish I could find specs on any ID drivers. FR charts would be amazing too. Bummer

Diamond: When you say they don't have to be on-axis, only PLD's need to be close...would the PLD's between midbass drivers be quite a bit different when in the doors? (the drivers door being significantly closer)

I hate cars

Sorry I should have said, I was referring to the klippel spec. Dyns published ratings seem to be ultra conservative. Most speakers are not even close to manufacturer spec and these seem to exceed them.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

They aren't as far off as they appear. About a foot if I recall. (depending on where you sit. I'm 6'1" and sit almost all the way back) The farther you get from the driver door speaker the more the PL equalizes. Ideally, all speakers would be the same distance from the listener, but the mid-bass is omni-directional enough that the driver doesn't have to be facing the listener. Obviously a dedicated mid (or a single element mid/midbass) is a different story.

regardless, I don't know where the hell you're going to fit a pair of 10s under the dash of this car. I've looked.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Ah ok my bad. I'm also wondering about the door panel situation like DiamondJoe said. You're going have to do some serious mods to the outside OR somehow make the ring go on the door panel. I don't have those kind of skills lol, but maybe/hopefully you do. Not quite sure what options you'd have to make the opening larger.

I hate cars

Rattles are my biggest concern. I'm going to reinforce the back side of the door with MDF behind the speaker, kind of like the mounting rings but on the back side. I'm going to make sure the speaker is sealed to the door so all sound goes through the grill opening. Going to add screws from the card to the door anywhere I can. I'm removing the factory grill all the way to the trim ring which I believe is close to 9" at it's widest and cover it with grill cloth.

I'm not planning to run the midbasses any louder than what I have, at least not right away but I might lower the crossover point to around 50-60hz. Or in other words, they will obviously still blend with the rest of the system but less stressed with more potential output. This is that grey area because I don't really NEED to upgrade at the moment.

Were you lacking room under the dash when accounting for an enclosure or just for the driver itself?

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

This is the big grey area in my mind also. Will the benefits of a slightly lower excursion/HD be audible to you or anyone for that matter? Sure it might get louder and go a little lower, but at the cost of extreme rattles, quite a bit of fab work, etc? Just wondering if the work and troubles outweigh the benefits or not.

If you don't think you "need" to upgrade then I'd look at something else to tinker with. You going bit.1 yet? I figured you do a bit.1 before you tried something else. That should keep you busy for awhile lol. You're just like me in that we can't stop tinkering lol. I kinda want to start playing with low budget stuff in my girls car. Toss some silver flutes in there and a good budget tweeter and see what it sounds like.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

I was planning on building a baffle underneath and running both IB. There is a steering knuckle that is a little problematic on the left, but can be gotten around but on the right a 6.5" JL C5 physically would not fit without a major loss of foot room due to the blower motor. I even thought about finding a smaller blower motor from like a Civic and modify, but it was going to be just too much work so I punted.

I can't imagine trying to shoehorn 10s under there without MAJOR surgery.

pohljm

The only recommended user for the stock speakers are paperweights.
If your not running those mids to high I only think you will need a single under the dash.

stevemk07

To each his own, but you WOULD change your opinion if you heard my system as it is now.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

To each his own. I read your thread. I STRONGLY disagree with your theory in this thread.

pohljm

Um.........I am not going to consider preparing a response to that notion other than "You have got to be joking!" And just so you know, we are not talking about lots of expense. The system that I have put together is very cost effective. Components, sub, amp, cables, baffle materials, sound deadening, carpeting and Isimple device, all in for $900.00 and could have easily shaved $200 off that if I waited longer for some deals.

niebur3

Sorry I missed this until now. Matt, if you are buying them from me....then I vote "go for it"...lol.

As you probably know already, many members on DIYMA that own the 430's use the 182's for midbass and put them in the doors. I had 182's in my Firebird (remade door panel) and those doors were entirely fiberglass....no metal at all. It wasn't all the rigid and made mounting the 182's pretty hard to do. Honestly, I didn't experience any more rattles than I already had when using them AND I did love how they sounded. They absolutely pounded! I have been contemplating doing the exact same thing in my TL...lol! I would get them installed, play them and see what happens before putting your door panel back on. Then you can locate and eliminate the rattles as much as possible. You can almost guarantee you will have some rattles (as all doors do...that is why many do kicks or the floor for MB) but you just need to minimize as much as possible.

BTW, what all did Kirk do to get those AT's in his doors? Didn't he just have to put a spacer to move the window rail a little bit?

pohljm

I dont believe he had to move the window rail at all! Unless I missed that.

I hate cars

All that matters is you're happy with it. I can guarantee it wouldn't be enough for me based on excursion capabilities alone. I'm wanting to upgrade for more displacement as it is and these Dyns that I have, have extremely good excursion capabilities. I believe the stock ones have .5mm linear throw and 3mm total throw. They just flat out couldn't get loud enough low enough.

That's great news. I had no idea you've run them before. I've been so worried that the 182 is going to be a downgrade in SQ from the 650, I'm glad that you've experienced both.

I do not believe Kirk used spacers in the window track but I'll go back and read over what he sent me. I think his ATs were 4.5" deep so I think there's a very good chance the Dyns will fit without mods. He flush mounted the speakers to the doors so they fit under the door panels.

I measured the opening if I were to cut the stock grill out and retain the stock trim ring so that the panel will still look very close to stock. I can get an 8.25"x6.75" opening by doing that. I'm happy with that I think. Without the plastic in front of the speaker I think it will be ok. Stock you basically have 5" of usable opening at it's largest point so that's a huge difference in area plus you lose the grill.

Do you have any other comparisons between the 650 and 182? I've been pushing the system a little harder. It's hard to believe the 430 actually sounds good at 200hz and at 300hz it would take a lot more power than I have to hurt them. I don't think there will be any issues with them mating to the 10s.

I've seen one system that used 182s as the midbass and 650s as the midrange which is interesting.

I'll PM you shortly.

I hate cars

These are the 9" MB I've been mentioning. I believe they're very close to the same OD as the 10" Dyns. These are from Kirk's TL and stolen from DIYMA.



This is the Dyn MW182 with it's 4" VC



I'm considering another 900/5 and using the sub section of each on the midbass and the currrent 600/4 bridged on the subs which would give me an additional 100w for 600 total on the subs which is way more than enough.

stevemk07

You guys are right. My system is a piece of crap because my puny mid bass woofers ate only good to hold paper down and do not have the same abilities of a hair dryer. Stupid me for thinking the point of audio gear was listening pleasure. Good luck with your endless struggles.

I hate cars

Like i said, what sounds good to you is whats important. But don't ever listen to a high end system because you will realize the shortcomings of your system. I was perfectly happy with my stock system plus subs for a couple years then I heard one truck that completely changed my view.

niebur3

Aren't you looking to upgrade yourself Stevemk07?

stevemk07

I will be at some point when I can afford it better. I nearly pulled the trigger on getting those ID cxs62s but then was reading about them needing lots of power. The last PM I sent you was about amplification but guess you missed it. I took it as a sign to wait and see what I could do for very little money and risk of messing up the current system.

IHC, probably right. First time I heard a subwoofer was in a civic hatchback around 95 . I bought that exact sub and enclosure off him.

Question for both of you.... Does the shortened distance in an IB setup make up for loss of cabin gain relative to placing a sub in the corner? Having put my 10" sealed .54 cuft. Sub in the corner allowed me to not need any boosting at 40hz. In my research I saw that frequencies below 70-80 will receive sincreasingly higher gain due to cabin shape, pressure, etc.

pohljm

Steve, I do not want to sidetrack this thread, but just as an example. I have a $58 sub on $35 worth of a baffle and driving it with only 300w. Almost non existent deadening in the trunk and some foam on the back of my license plate. No rattles except a little one on my deck. The IB setup is super efficient and can be very economical. Most people with sealed/ported boxes in the trunk will need to spend more than than that just on sound deadening material in the trunk, not to mention their box and sub.

eggyhustles

3x the output potential? Nuh uh.

real world conditions

6db increase.

niebur3

The Image Dynamics do not need a lot of power to sound good. I don't know who said that, but it is just not true. 75-100 watts per side would be plenty.

As far as cabin gain, that is a product of the vehicle itself, not any enclosure. Different vehicles will experience different levels of cabin gain (due to the size of the cabin). I think it was JBL that had a measurement of about 15 different cars and cabin gains associated with them and in a small car (civic), the cabin gain caused a rise of 20dB's starting at about 50 hz. This is the reason you can put a sealed enclosure in a vehicle which will model the sub rolling off sharply at about 40hz and still experience a flat response down to 20hz with no/very little eq.

I hate cars

6db is huge but there's more potential than that. You have 3x the displacement so if displacement is the limitation then you're right. But the 10s are not going to be displacement limited unless I run them really low so the power handling goes way up. I will probably be able to hit the thermal limits before the mechanical limits

eggyhustles

6db isn't much to the ear, imo.

How low do u plan on crossing em? Cross at 80, imo..your subs can def take care of the rest.

I hate cars

Since we know the AT speaker works in the TL's doors, I've been comparing dimensions a little closer.

The AT has an overall diameter of 275mm, Dyn 239mm

Flange height, AT is 10mm, Dyn 5.9mm

Cutout hole diameter, AT is 240mm, Dyn 195mm.

Magnet diamter, AT is 220mm at it's widest point, 170 at it's narrowest point, the Dyn is 113mm.

Mounting hole diameter for the AT is 258mm, the Dyn is 220mm.

The Dyn is 3" deep. I *think* that AT is 4.5" deep.

The Dyn still has a little more cone area so that's not sacrificed but the Dyn seems like a baby compared to the AT. This really gets my hopes up that the install won't be too terrible.

I'm starting to look forward to this. Maybe use one of the 650s as the center if I still have the MS8.

I hate cars

6db is double the SPL and 10db is double the percieved loudness and that also depends on the frequencies being covered. Either way, the point is to get the speaker away from it's excursion limits. I'll model it when I get home but with 3x the power on a pair of 10s I should get more than a 6db potential especially in the ranges where the 6.5" is excursion limited and the 10" is not.

I hate cars

Agreed. I used to get so sick of hearing people say the Dyns were power hungry. Then I did something unheard of, I looked up the efficiency rating. They are as efficient as any other driver of the same size. Once a rumor starts, people just repeat it blindly. IDs are not power hungry. It seems like whenever you end up with a speaker that handles lots of power well, they get the reputation of being power hungry.

stevemk07

Sowould anyone agree that the reason people feel the need for so much power in their cars s a poor sound environment?

pohljm

Headroom, dynamics and not having to push things close to the limit would be my reasons and I am not pushing much power at all. 700w for the entire system and its way more than adequate for me. In fact i am going to lower my gains just a bit because on volume level 1 its just a little to much for just background. and I am not even using a line driver.

I hate cars

That's a small portion but my car is heavily sound deadened. Not only damped but Luxury Liner Pro sound barrier lining the entire floor board and other places. The car is pretty quiet. I can also open all windows going down the freeway and it has enough output to drown out windnoise and sound great.

I have only 250w available for each sub and I don't use half of that normally. They're efficient to begin with and they're IB so efficiency is much higher than your typical small sealed box installation.

The reason for so much power is dynamics. You can easily need over 10x the power from the softest passage to the loudest passage in music. It's not that I want to listen to it loudly all the time, I want it to accurately reproduce the music without clipping and with great dynamics. You need power to do this.

eggyhustles

x2

If all goes well, i should have 1800w on tap for the front stage soon.

niebur3

I also think some of the high power in cars has to do with the fact that in a car environment, you can actually turn up the stereo and enjoy it. Not many can do that at home with wifes, kids, neighbors, etc. The dynamics in a car environment absolutely crush anything the home side can produce....probably the only advantage of car audio.