T-R

Please
We had experience with 2 BMW dealerships, in fact, the only 2 that we could go to because they were the only ones in our area that service Minis - meaning that they are pretty big.
In both cases, they were the worse that I have ever seen.

Now, since I owned a number of Acuras, and live part time in Boston and part time in Alexandria VA, I have been at at least a dozen of Acura dealerships. My family also owns 2 Lexuses, so I've been on couple of their dealerships as well.

So my experience does mean something. If it doesn't, than what does?

justinjsw

You wouldn't know what a better car is if it ran over your dumb a$$.

1SICKLEX

I don't think so. VW is having hell trying to go upmarket, the general public still doesn't give a rat's ass about Infiniti, Audi has a tough time too. Acura=value to people and value does not= luxury. Luxury is about excess. It is about stupid things. Like rear seats that move and a rear fridge (LS 430), it is about 493hp from a TT V-8 and TT V-12 (Benz).

Now you might say, well only 2% of their cars sold has these features. Your right. But cause their offered, it reflects on the rest of the brand.

Acura had the Integra/RSX which gets younger buyers, but it also has the ricer stigma. No matter how tasteful the cars are done. Also, it is about a record. BMW and Benz have their history. Lexus has a successful history with only a couple mistakes. Acura was asleep most of the 90s. Like Infiniti, it's gonna take some time to make that up. Infiniti has the G35 (only selling 3500 a month, this is a NEW model, the ES 330 sells 5500 a month) and FX making waves but the rest of their lineup, no matter how much marketing we see, is just overlooked. Nothing luxury about that.

legendguy

1SICKLEX
I'm kindof a statistics hound. Could you please tell me where to find individual model stats (like you posted for the G35 and ES330)? All I can find is listing for numbers sold by year for general makes of cars. Thanks

phile

Think again. VW going upmarket is like Chevrolet trying to go upmarket. Of course it's not going to work. Look at the Corvette. There's a reason why Audi exists, and there's a reason why there's Cadillac. Audi has had a hard time because, if you don't remember, they almost had to close shop in the US. Their cars were the epitome of unreliability - they were like the German Yugo. It has only been recently that they've regained some trust. You don't see Hyundai selling as many Sonatas and Elantras as Honda sells Accords and Civics do you? That's because they can't beat their reputation for poor reliability overnight, even though they are indeed improving. Audi is in the same boat.

And it's funny you mention the Lexus LS430 - even when you deck it out with all the fancy options that Lexus has to offer, competiting models from Mercedes and BMW with similar options are still more expensive...by at least $10,000. So here you have a Lexus that is more value oriented than its competitors...using what you said about value and luxury, the big Lexus isn't a luxury car.

biker

It seems to me that the most direct comparison for Acura for direction should be the other two Japanese luxury brands. With the exception of the ES for Lexus and I35 for Infiniti (which is in its last year and not being replaced) all of their sedan models are RWD models that are NOT based on any NA model. The only model Acura has/will have in this category is the RL.

By MY2005 the line up at Infiniti will be G35 for entry level, M35 and M45 (both based on the new Fuga) for mid level and Q45 for top of the line. Lexus will have IS for entry level, GS (300 and 430) for mid level, and LS for top of the line. The ES is the odd ball and by the time the next version of the Camry comes out, Lexus might not make its own version of it. Compared to this Acura has a bunch of odd ball models - although they work quite well. And since all of the models have just been re-done (RL next year) there won't be major changes for a number of years.

The gamble for Acura is weather the current model of selling souped up models based on Honda volume FWD cars will keep working or do they go the route of the other Japanese makers and bring out totally different RWD/AWD cars for their luxury brand. I would like to see Acura take the latter route. The next RL may have some indication of this.

1SICKLEX

Dang, give me a sec. One of the forums I am on had a link to em. Septembers results. Every car sold here.Lexus will continue with the ES, it has always been it's best selling sedan. It will continue to get plusher.True but it is not decontented. It has just about everything the others offer for less. That is true value. Offering less and costing less is not value to me.Agreed. Audi also could never convince the American public why to buy over BMW or Benz. AWD never really caught on with the luxury public as a must have item.

phile

So using the new TL as an example, which comes with a shitload of standard features that a lot of the competition offers as options, and is priced reasonably well, is not considered value to you? It costs less but it's not decontented. Because you said Acura = value, and value does not equal luxury. But just now you said the Lexus had value...yet Acura is value, but not luxury. That is why I bring up the TL.

gilboman

RWD VS FWD....it is missing the main componet of a luxury sedan..you can dress up a hyundai with all the luxury goods but that doesnt make it a luxury car..... not to mention brand value too..the brand is worth $$$ , which is how luxury makers can move downmarket with ease and have a much easier time having consumers recongize their cheaper offerings as luxury but a brand such as Acura constantly has to work with the label poorman's Lexus or smth along those lines....in the end... Acura uses value to sell, not brand or car....Luxury brand do not have to rely on value as its main selling point... they have the prestige and "luxury" sedan prequsites on their cars...eg. min 6cylinder and RWD or AWD.. but of course Acua relying on Value to sell

phile

Uh huh, is that why when Lexus started out, the LS300 was priced in the 35Ks, undercutting any other V8 RWD luxury car by at least a good $10,000? Lexus built its reputation on reliability and value, not performance, which is what RWD and V8 engines are about. They're not the prettiest cars on the road, they're not the fastest and they're not the most expensive either. Acura as a poor mans' Lexus...most of the Lexus models that compete with Acuras are more expensive by only 2 or 3K (e.g. RX330/MDX, GS300/RL). Likewise, Lexus plays second fiddle to Mercedes in the same regard, yet somehow they're luxury and Acura isn't. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

justinjsw

So what is your point?

I didn't know that paying more and having less means luxury.

Yes MB and BMW have their top end luxury models and even Lexus have theirs...but what does that mean to your everyday buyer? The ones that can't afford the 7 Series and the S Classes...does that mean its ok to have to pay more for your run of the mill 3 Series so your real luxury buyers can have their toys in their cars. It almost sounds like walking into Neiman Marcus and picking up a pair of 25 dollar silk socks is ok just because it says Neimans on it.
Acura does not have that so called luxury image and in reality thats all it is an image. For sure the TL will run rings around the 3 Series for most of the drivers and for everyday use. So debate all you want...spend 40K for your 330I...and feel the German difference while you are stuck sitting in rush hr traffic...oh wait but you have RWD that will really help...while the SMART shoppers spend less and get more in their TLs. And with their saved money they can use it to maybe buy another property while you are throwing away your hard earned money trying to maintain your german wife/husband...oh wait again you do get free services...with your Beemers/MB.

Am I trying to say BMW suck...no of course not...they are very nice cars...but coming in here for a yr thinking just because you drive a 3 Series...doesn't mean you are better than anybody else in this forums. Actually if you pull up next to me in your crappy under optioned leathette beemer wanna-to-be...the first throught to cross my mind will be...look at that dumb ass.

Junkster

What a surprise, Gilbo taking the heat again.

I thought this thread was getting too long, but it started to get interesting, so I couldn't help it.

Lexus is a hard example to use. With Toyota's massive financial status and great foundation for parts and assembly, Lexus was bound to succeed one way or another. Toyota dedicated themselves to making Lexus work, even risking their profit margins to make it succeed. No other company has such resources, not even MB or BMW (you don't see them running a large brand outside of their own... no, mini and Smart don't count as a brand line, yet).

Acura has to play the value card, and they seem to cheap-out on certain features and parts. Honda isn't as big as Lexus, and cannot gamble their assets to make a small volume badge work. Acura is at a crossroads now, with the other import lux brands moving more and more ahead of them, and nothing really down the line that can counter this trend (I don't think RL is going to cut it, personally). They have to find a niche and quick, because you see even the europeans moving downmarket to grab that market share and future loyalists.

As for moving down vs. moving up, I say that is about even. Moving down is easier, yes, but you suffer from possible backlash from current loyalists disenchanted by larger owner base, especially a lower income bracket. I can't say a seven series owner would love to see a 1 series with a high school kid driving, carrying the same badge. Moving up isn't easy either, with an image problem and heritage absence. Lexus had to pump in alot of money to get to where it is, but still doesn't demand the respect of a MB top lines.

Which brings me to the Lexus playing second fiddle to MB. I don't think it's a bad thing since they are doing well so far... key word being so far. For Lexus to expand and grow, if they plan to stay in the chase of MB, they are going to have to find more ways to take away sales from MB, and BMW along the way. This cannot be easy. What can Lexus pull out to counter? They have struck a good niche with their SUV's, that might be a way to keep it's growth up, but IF that SUV trend goes south, their needs to be another weapon against the euros. This is still left to be seen.

And I will conclude with the RWD and FWD crap that's been going on for a while here. First, DO NOT use the 3 series as some standard for great RWD car. Only in it's M3 form do we see a true nature of the 3 series premise. A 5 series, for me and many critics, is still the standard for a perfect sedan drivewise. A TL, or any other mid sized lux sedan FWD or RWD or AWD, will be hard pressed to equal the driving experience of the 5 series. And even the 5 series don't see much light until you get to the 4.5 L engine for good performance. The recent 3 series are overpriced and under-equiped compared to some of the new competitors. The next 3 series will probably move a little up the BMW latter, since we get the 2 series beneath it.

Wee... that's a long one. Maybe that will take some heat off Gilbo... naw, probably not.

Junkster, who thinks Acura is a near-lux brand, like Saab and Volvo, and not a true lux brand like Lexus and MB.

phile

Nope, even though I know gilbo's affinity for everything BMW, I'm not giving him heat - I just don't agree with him.

1SICKLEX

Legendguy, here ya go, I did not forget I think the new TL is awesome features wise but it is now 35k with Nav. I think it now equates luxury (what an interior!) but no longer value (fock, now I am confused )

Arrrrrh, who cares anymore. The LS 430 (again) beat out what, 5 other competitors for 1st recently and always finishes in the top 3. It is regarded as the finest luxury car ever built by many. It battles head on to me. The IS battles the c-class/3 series head on. The GS battles the E class5 series head on. The RX invented the car based SUV and battles the X3/X5 and ML head on. The SC 430 battles the SL head on.

Just me?

1SICKLEX

Legendguy, the G35 is 5k + units with coupe AND sedan sales.

phile

It won because, first and foremost, it was among the lowest priced sedans in the test, even after the fact that it came with all the options that Lexus could offer. Secondly, because it had the best ergonomics. Nice assets, but not exactly luxury.

And I don't think you understand what I mean by second fiddle - it's not about direct competition, it's about perception: Lexus is not perceived to be on the same level as MB; similar to Lexus being perceived as a higher brand to Acura, and yet Lexus is seen as luxury while Acura isn't, even though Lexus itself is a second fiddle to MB. Given an S-Class and an LS430, more people will choose the S-Class, as evident in the sales number. That tells you just how strong the image of MB is compared to Lexus, despite what C&D has to say. You have a car that wins road tests, is newer and gives you just as much, if not more, than cars costing more, and yet people will buy the aging MB that's due for a redesign any day now over the Lexus.

And the RX did not start the midsize luxury SUV craze, the M-Class came first.

d-rock

i think ill rank the luxury brands like this

MB
BMW
Lexus
Audi/jag
Acura
saab/volvo

1SICKLEX

I said car-based dude . The ML was first but has won no awards and it to be AVOIDED. It has the WORST quality, just reading about it and talking to people who have traded em in. The RX got it right from the start, it's been the best selling luxury SUV since 99.I disagree a lil. Yes Lexus does not offer the vast product line or factory AMG products but all magazine reviewers worldwide see Lexus as Mercedes competition and nearly on par. And I agree with your statement about Benz's incredible prestige. It is unmatched short of RR or Bentley.

Sales figures: Set 03 Aug 03 2003 2002

Mercedes-Benz S-Class 2,025 1,622 15,981 14,534

Lexus LS 430 1,739 2,168 15,583 19,909

THe LS 430 offers really one model and options. The S-class
430
500
S55
S600
S65

1SICKLEX

The Jag was lowest priced and dude, that is not why it won. It won b/c it had the best interior, the ride was better than avg, they could actually work the controls and the rear seat occupants had their own world down there. For 70k. There was no reason to buy any other product for more money in that comparison.

phile

I said one of the lowest, not the lowest.

And where did you think Lexus got the idea to make the RX300 from?

Junkster

Have you ever driven an ML? In any form of engine, it has to be one of the worst Lux SUVs out there. My father's friend just bought a 1-year old ML and I had to take their kids to a movie, and I swear it drives like my father's old 4Runner... from '88!!!

The ML has been tagged as the greatest failure for MB in it's history by CAR magazine and other enthusiast magazines. First, it was hurried in it's preparation for launch, so MB never developed a dedicated chassie for it. It was designed in a hurry as well, so that the car has been voted top 10 ugliest cars on the road for the last 4 years by european magazines (the Aztec came and stole it's glory). Every review of the ML has been that it is dated compared to the others in the field. MB never foresaw the coming of the car-based utes and now sit behind others in this growing field, with Lexus collecting on most of the benefits.

CAR magazine had a great article on the failure of the ML about two or three months ago, stating that MB had never really created a car due to demand, and their studios were used to building cars with no true classifications or need to chase a competitor. They were ill-prepared for the US SUV craze and has never really given it another shot with the idea of a MB SUV. While all the others (BMW, Acura, Infiniti, and even Volvo) have tried to grasp their share of the market, MB has stood by the ML, with no significant redesigns nor plans of a smaller ute under the ML.

Please, don't tell me the RX was created to battle the ML. RX/Highlander were the first to break ground on the car-based SUV, and have since been the target and standard for all competitors in the field.

Junkster, who can't believe we are talking about the ML in this forum.

larchmont

Larchmont, who wonders if Junkster invented this kind of sign-off, and if not, where he ripped it off from.

Junkster

http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...&threadid=4546

It's partially explained here... Someone actually remember when they used to do this on various forums about two or so years ago. It was quite popular back in the day.

I think it's starting to rub off on some of the younger (in terms of forum usage) users who might see this for the first time. The anime forum on Google still has this going among the older posters.

Personally, I like it, keeps me on my toes to come up with a finishing thought/comment/tangent/insult that fits into the rest of the post (if only slightly at times).

Junkster, who thinks everyone should give this 3rd person dealie a shot or two.

phile

It doesn't matter - Mercedes came out with the M-Class a year before Lexus introduced the RX300 to the U.S., Mercedes created this segment, regardless of whether it's car based or not. Before the M-Class, the only luxo SUVs were the jumbo-sized Lexus LX450 and Land Rovers, both of which were more expensive than the base M-Class.
And the Highlander was not the first to break ground on the car-based SUV - it came after the RX300, which came after the Toyota RAV4. It wasn't until Mercedes proved that a midsize luxury SUV was profitable that Lexus brought over the Toyota Harrier as a Lexus RX300. That's like saying Acura wasn't the first Japanese luxury brand just because Toyota came up with the idea of Lexus at a top secret meeting in 1983. Who cares, Acura came out in 86, Lexus in 89 - whether or not Toyota thought of it way back in 83 is irrelevant.

You can't believe the M-Class is being discussed...as if discussions of the Lexus RX is somehow any less off topic?!

Junkster

Whoa there Nelly, NEVER argued that the ML wasn't the first to the market of the mid sized Lux ute, just that it was a failure for MB. You would concur on that point right?

I did forget the RAV4. That's a goof on my part.

And I was just stating my distaste for the ML, so I added it to the "3rd person line". No, we never go off on tangent about other brands here...

Junkster, whose only nitpick with the RX is that it looks too feminine.

phile

Oh, OK. Well I think we should agree to disagree...I really don't want every other post in this thread to be from me, I'll end up looking like...well, nevermind.

gilboman

I think Lexus has done very well and moved passed MB since a year or two ago to become the highest selling luxury brand in the US and have worked hard to ensure that they are percieved to be a true luxury brand (which i think has worked). Once they have the "luxury" status, their next generation of cars (IS,GS,LS) will automatically be labeled luxury cars by birth and don't have to fight the image issues Acura has or play the value game. I have no doubts Toyota will continue its near flawless execution of Lexus brand much like its mainstream brand... each suscessive new generation of their models have been sucessful saleswise and in moving up the brand. and

I do agree the 3 series is NOT the standard for a RWD car...but it is the benchmark/Standard in the Entry Level SportSedan class... the 5 series (Premium sportsedan) is in a class all by itself above other competitors performance/driving wise.. because the competition have tried and tried again and not touch the 3 series in performance/driving enjoyment... hence they are not even close to the 5series.

I have also never said the 3 series or the 330xi/my car is a good VALUE..but i have also stressed i wasn't looking for value.. a 5 series was too big for me and seemed to be for an older age group than me (and i couldnt afford the M5:'( ) so that left the 3 series... but I NEEDED a sporty car that i would enjoy driving... and the TSX, G35, A4, IS didnt match up... i didn't buy BMW of the brand or the "prestige" i just wanted a sporty sedan and they were the only one who made one that matched my wants...to put it bluntly..i had no choice other than the 3 series... and in response to JunstinJsw's never ending rant on my overpriced car... something CAN ONLY be overpriced if you can get a similar product that matches your needs at a lower price... but no other car could for me..i wasnt willing to accept the compromises for a lower priced car (torque/driving dynamics/fun to drive/some comfort)... most people buy a BMW for its brand and would probably be adequately surved by a lower priced/"better value" car such as the TSX or TL, but i'm not one of them although i have tried but unsuccessfully to tell my collegues/friends to consider a TSx or TL instead of BMW/AUDI but to no avail because they weren't going to pay 40k cdn for a "HONDA" eventhough they knew they would not be able to appreciate the difference in performance/driving enjoyment to justify the price they pay...

calling me and my car as cheap by using the analogy of going to neiman marcus and buying 25 dollar socks...that makes the TSX owners like buyers at Winners looking for the lowest priced "brand" name item because they could've gotten a loaded accord with more freatures at lower price and got the lowest level acura for the name (RSX doesnt count, nobody can seriouisly believe that's a car that should belong in any brand that sells itself as luxury)..which i obviously do not think so (more like target atleast )

1SICKLEX

http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...&threadid=4714


The ML, I could not even argue for it. I can argue for the X5, which is sporty and has everyone now chasing the sporty SUV (FX comes to mind). The ML is a total POS. Honestly. They came out 1 year after the other, so they were being developed the same time. Now the FX Infiniti is a blatant copy of the X5. Like the original LS 400 was a blatant copy of the old E-class.

phile, I don't think your gonna look like anything. This is the internet, we are having a discussion. Get some help though, it's 3 against 1.

phile

*sigh* Do you even understand what I write? The M-Class established the midsize luxury SUV class in North America, a year later Toyota took its Toyota Harrier from Japan, badged it a Lexus for the American market to compete with the M-CLass.

And I don't care if I'm in the minority. That doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong.

1SICKLEX

I'll give it first, clearly is came out in 1997 now that I think of it. But it only established itself as a POS.

I was just joking about the 3>1. We are debating, no right and no wrong.

Junkster

What!?! We were only debating? I thought I was going to have to track down phile and beat him with a baseball bat since he disagreed with me

Since we all disagree and all...
Dude, doesn't the ML remind you of a prego bear, though? I mean, who okayed that design at MB. You get all these curvy, sexy vehicles in the line-up... then BAM! You see this thing.
I wonder if they have a redesign in mind for the ML. I'm sure MB could come up with a huge winner in the segment if they tried, ala X5. Plus, with a MB name behind it, if it's even slightly better, it would be a good seller for them in the segment.

At least MB is going all out with the AMG version of the ML.

Junkster, who drove a V12 S-class... and almost peed his pants... argh... V12...

phile

Don't take me seriously...really, I'm not as nasty as I sound.

justinjsw

Here you are wrong again. I rant on you for what you bring to this forums. I rant on you based on your belief that everything else is inferior if its missing RWD or a V8. And I rant on you because you don't know what you are talking about 90% of the time. You call people fanboys because they prefer a honda ...what the heck does that make you?

biker

Having seen the new Prius tauted everywhere recently it seems to me that Honda might get into a hybrid duel with Toyota over the next decade (to keep up the green image by Honda).
When answering to what Honda engine make up will be by 2020, the CEO said:
"Gasoline engines will remain the mainstream, accounting for more than 50 percent of the total. No question about it. The question is how far hybrids will go. That may be 5 percent to 20 percent. But fuel cell penetration will be very limited, probably less than 10 percent. "

When asked:
"What U.S. models will get hybrid powertrains? Passenger cars?

He said:
"We can use our hybrid system in a variety of models because our system is simpler, more compact and less costly than others. We can use a V-6 in any model. "

The whole interview can be read here: Honda CEO interview

It seems like by the time the next wave of models come out (end of the decade) hybrids will have a much larger share. The only problem I see is that the beloved MT is going to get harder and harder to get because you can't have MT with IMA.

Biker, who wonders if Junkster ever had "sudden accelaration" issues with his former ride.

Junkster

No, it wasn't a lemon. She was pretty trouble-free for a 80's euro in the US. I think the starter went out during the second year, but that's about it. The only negative was that she wasn't a quottro. Wasn't the greatest on snow, but better than the neighborhood mustangs and cameros.

Junkster, who would have to think hard before getting another Audi.

1SICKLEX

Junkster, AMG ML 55 is no longer producued. And I have driven one, fast for a SUV and nice interior updates but not worth the 70k for it.

SPUDMTN

I'm irritated, yet entertained at the same time. Interesting feeling...

Acura customer service in my area is GREAT. Make generalizations all you want--we won't take them for diddly. So what if you had one bad experience. Don't let it put a bad taste in your mouth. Heck, based off of my one experience at a BMW dealer I can say that all their dealers are snotty and disrespectful. There are good dealers and bad dealers for EVERY manufacturer. Tell us some FACTS for a change...

TMQ

As we have seen many times, the first to a place does not mean subsequent sucess. What matters is, once you get there, then what? Acura was the first Japanese brand to establish luxury in the U.S., yet it has lagged Lexus for some time. If MB continues the trend, someday the name won't mean anything.

Stokeless_TSX

german cars are over rated. though i do agree that acura needs a V8 just to show it can do it and has the technology to make big hp and tq with a v8 set up

chips

Sorry. I think it is we and Denise who could learn from Honda (Acura). Honda knows how to make cars that provide a very good value. Bragging doesn't get you anything but a swelled head. Critics will write what they want. Consumers will decide what they want. And Honda will build good cars. Honda just let's the product speak for itself. If other car companies could be good at one thing it should be making cars that provide long-term value. I can think of a lot of struggling car companies that are very good at bragging. Bragging is just hot air from an inflated ego. Honda respects the consumer intellegence. It is not Honda that drives the consumer. The consumer drives Honda. Simple, yet some don't get this. Build them right and they will come!!!

I grant you that value and luxury division seem to be a bit of an oxymoron. But, I also submit that getting a reliable, quality built luxury car is what most people (the Acura market) want. Maybe Honda does not want people to forget that an Acura has Honda roots. Based on my experiences with Honda products, I just feel better knowing an Acura is a Honda division. If people want a BMW for the prestige of the initials or another car for the net performance advantages of old fashion RWD then so be it. Honda wants to make money. Unlike many, Honda understands that providing value is the best way to do it. Just build them right and I will keep coming! So be it!