justnspace

iTrader: (1)

how much torque does one need?
we all know the J-series produces enough torque in vtec to scoot around.
its a characteristic of the engine. keep the rev's high to go fast!!!!

with a few exhaust mods, i bumped up my low end torque to 250lb/ft at 2500 RPM.

that's well enough to daily drive a 3500lb vehicle.

if some one didnt like that characteristic of the car, they should look at a different vehicle.

fsttyms1

I dont think there is anything too aggressive about those prototype bumpers, nor do i think it would turn off the average consumer or women. They could offer it in a few variants to make it different or "less" aggressive Many other manufacturers offer whole bumpers instead of a cheap add-on. If acura wants to be considered premium or more than just an upscale Accord maybe this is the thing they need to do.

Stew4HD

^ This! +10

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

the aggressive lexus predator grilles have not turned off women

BEAR-AvHistory

The stock TLX cars advertised max torque available is low, I4-182ftlbs & V-6 267ftlbs, its in the upper right hand side of the graph. At the wheels its going to lose maybe 10 or 15%? Will need to see the dynos but there will be a loss.

Low torque at the bottom end means the engine needs to be kept wound up to have good throttle response at low RPM, unless the gearing can cover it. The BMW V8 M3 had the same issues & has been replaced with a Turbo I6.

Cars can be modified like yours to different specs so what you did is not representative of an off the lot DD anymore than my 410WHP/414FTLBS 335is was.

Stock my 335 IIRC the wheel torque was 340ftlbs at the wheels @ 2500. Most of the newer cars regardless of make are pretty much going turbo to build up low end torque & a 4 cyl like the 328 has 255ftlbs @ 1250rpm. This in IMO makes for an easier drive when you don't want to play.

As for the product mix I believe there will be many more I4 TLX's sold than V6's so you will be looking at sub 200ftlbs to pull the 3500lb car.

AsianRage

My woman hates it. And she's a Toyota/Lexus fan.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Yep totally agree with that. As I've said many times, credit due to the 4G. I may not like the styling but it still is a good car in many ways. In 2007 all the reviews of the Type-S were screaming "torque steer" and they offered a SH-AWD with a 6MT on the 4G. That deserves credit, though that could have been welcome on the 3G. People had been asking for AWD since the 2G. They listened but too late. (I feel that on the 2GTLX that shield grille will be gone and the car will come back to a sporty look. Acura always reacts so late.)

The Type-S "Boy racer" it may have been indeed, red gauges, dual color interior, carbon fiber, quads etc. Some were trying to say it made it more of an Impreza STi/Lancer Evo type of look. But I don't think it's a bad thing. They killed the RSX too that replaced the Integra. That platform also is not coming back.

So all in all you can see that whole theme is out the door. They really are trying to go for that generic business professional/yuppie crowd. I actually fit that category, but shoot me if I like a little boy racer in me. Keeps me feeling younger than I am. Not old enough for a Lexus yet. Don't think I ever will be.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Yep you are right, wide audience is right. However I wish it was just slightly WIDER. Indeed the base 3G also looked pretty plain Jane. But from the 1st year itself the A-Spec package was offered. Yea it was mostly an appearance package but at least that widened the audience a bit. Later the Type-S hit squarely at the niche enthusiast market. So yes the TLX is going for a wide audience but I feel they could have had a wider audience before by offering more options and variations.

True that people will have a more emotional visceral response when an exotic comes out. One that they dream about more than they would realistically own. Even people who can afford those cars won't buy them because they see them as less practical and that it would have to be the 3rd car in the garage. That is where the whole concept of the sport sedan comes into play and why a car that is a cross between an Optima and a Corvette would be nice. Yea I know, these are not comparable cars, just saying that the sport sedan segment is all about having a car with the least compromises that can do it all competently. It can be used as your primary driver, that is the draw to it. I know you don't agree but this has lost that sport sedan placement. It is more of a luxury car now. That's why I said scaled down RLX.

The TLX is new like you said, perhaps it is too early. By next year this time we will be able to know better what the impact will be. If it will be the "must have it!" car of 2015 or will it be forgotten like the Q50, RLX, CT200h etc. I think it will do better than those cars but definitely not where it should be.

I am sure these type of statements annoy the "open-minded" crowd that doesn't like projections or assumptions and rather always say "let's see". I get it. I used to be like that. Guess when you get older you get a little bit more opinionated. Just voicing my opinion that's all.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

If they are not going after the enthusiast, then why all the marketing around athletes and thrill? Why try to conjure up all of the images of sportiness and athleticism if you are not going to try to deliver a product that is supposed to embody those images?

Acura clearly is trying to build a particular image for the car that is intended to appeal to a particular audience. However, there have been no numbers and no real world impressions of the drive to back it up so people can only go based on the looks, which are, in my opinion, a bit underwhelming compared to the rather attractive prototype.

It is not about those of us who are enthusiast drivers complaining, but rather Acura's own marketing targeting a group that feels like Acura may not be able to deliver on its promises.

iutodd

Jeff over at TOV did a dyno with the RLX:

http://vtec.net/articles/view-articl...cle_id=1150994

The peak power number is a bit wonky as explained by Jeff but the torque number is pretty solid - 233 lbs-ft and it's flatter and wider than the V6 in the Accord. The TLX will probably be slightly lower at the wheels than the RLX but the TLX V6 will (according to specs released on tlxthrill) weigh basically the same as an Accord Touring. The Accord Touring has been tested at 5.4-5.6 seconds to 60 - the TLX will have higher peak power, more torque delivered better and different gearing with (I think) faster shift times. So it will still be plenty fast IMO.

fsttyms1

I agree, it appears once again they know the direction they want to go, but just dont know how to get there, or it gets lost along the way.

dysonlu

Are you referring to BMW, for instance? These other manufacturers are 10x bigger than Acura. In fact, probably bigger than even Honda. They can afford to offer them whole bumpers AND even produce several halo cars, even if these aren't profitable to them. I think people here should manage their expectations with regards to Acura and see Acura as what it is -- a small player.

Doesn't really matter if enthusiasts consider Acuras as upscale Accords; Audi sells tons of upscaled VW.

dysonlu

I didn't know thrill and sportiness are exclusive to enthusiasts. Are thrill and sportiness reserved to F1 drivers?

dysonlu

Nothing is absolute or black and white.

You think no enthusiast will buy a TLX?

fsttyms1

Oh please, you are acting like they are some backyard company with no budget. Do you honestly think it would cost the manufacturer that much to mold another type of bumper? You act as though Honda/Acura isnt big enough to do so If a small company can recapture mold costs for a body kit (RonJon) i think Acura could with a sport bumper.

And yes it does matter, why wouldnt it. If they want to be taken seriously by others and those that are looking at the models Acura hopes to compete with they need to be premium, they need to separate and produce something that is.

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree its an eye candy run as Jeff said. A normal run is done in what ever gear gives 1:1 or as close as possible.

Thing that is interesting is Acura sells the car at 310HP @ 6500 & 272Ftlbs @ 4500. According to the dyno sheets 258/233 it looses 52HP & 39FTLBS at the wheels.

dysonlu

Sure, they have enough money to offer 10 different types of bumpers. But it's not about whether they have the money to do so; it is about ROI.

How much would whole bumper, sensors-ready, kits retail for? Do RonJon make them? Not talking about add-on kits.

Colin

Acura Prototypes are made with production tooling. Concepts (and there have been few lately) like the CL-X from the mid-90's were 'one offs'. I'm not a photographer but understand a little of the concepts. The photos represented will look different if shot differently. Using a long lens but zoomed in will look different than a wide lens, shot close. Unless you know how it was shot, it's not possible to overlay one image over another since the image itself is distorted. (try this for more: http://www.knsaber.com/2010/03/wide-vs-telephoto/)

Why not? All consumer products have some hyperbole in advertising and since you're (hopefully) marketing to people who see themselves as youthful and sporty (regardless of age), it makes sense to emphasize these characteristics. Hopefully, we'll see more ads focused on what (they perceive) women might want in a car as the launch unfolds. Anyway, I'm just suggesting that it be given time to unfold.

dysonlu

Actually, those pics do NOT have the exact same angle, only similar, as I noted. If you look at the wheels, you can see what I mean. On the prototype's side view, you can see part of the rear-right wheel; on the production's side view, you can see part of the front-right wheel.

So the angle of those pics is not exactly the same, which explains the slight differences you observed. The lens and zooming as explained by Colin are also factors.

I think everything above the ground effects is identical between the prototype and the production vehicles (besides the side-mirrors obviously).

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Because portraying a product with this image and creating an expectation, but failing to deliver on it does damage to the brand's image rather than helps. Heck, even BMW backed away from using the "Ultimate Driving Machine" tagline for a while when it had cars that were getting mediocre reviews in the car rags.

Marketing needs to be about more than just selling a product, it needs to be about building a brand image. BMW, MB, Lexus, Ducati, and Harley Davidson are all brands that can rely on their existing brand image to carry them through rough periods in their product development.

Acura, on the other hand, has already pretty much used up what little brand image equity it had built up with long-time buyers and really needs to deliver a product that can live up to the expectations it is creating for itself, especially through its own marketing machine. If the product fails to live up to the hype, which from a design perspective it has already started to do, and they are not prepared to apply a few very quick fixes, then this whole marketing effort is going to do more long-term damage than good.

Colin

Only if you believe that everybody believes everything they see/read.

Only on the internet. Especially enthusiast sites. IMO, the bottom line is that Acura remains an intercept brand. They build cars on an existing FWD chassis. Within these limitations all the 'magic' needs to happen.

Understanding all of this, marketing is always going to be a problem. On the one hand, they need to be perceived as somewhat exclusive while also projecting an affordable front. But it's an issue that Acura has always faced, when they get it right, we have huge hits like 2G and 3G TL, or 1G TSX (cars I might point out, had very limited choice).

Anyway, all this is to say that I fail to see how a car that hasn't been released has 'failed' to meet expectations. I'll be honest, EVERYTHING I've seen so far, I've expected... except pleather seats on the base model. That one, I didn't see coming.

fsttyms1

I didnt say they needed 10, but depending on the different types of models etc 2 or 3 wouldnt be out of the reasonable question.

Im not talking about add on kits either, im just stating that if a small vendor can incur the cost of having a mold made (yes for a add on), then i find it hard to believe as you so pointed out that it would be to costly for a brand like honda as they arent as big as bmw who can afford it as you put it.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Losing 51hp/38lbft of torque with a stated output of 310hp/272lbft is pretty darn good for a car with automatic transmission.

It's also important to note what Jeff said,

"so if we were somehow able to get a full pull (all the way to the rev limiter) in, chances are the engine would have peaked at around 270-275 whp. To that, you could potentially add a few horsepower for an example with lighter wheels and a fully broken-in engine."

Typically we see 20-25% loss with AT cars. In this case, it's more like 15%. It either means the engine is underrated, or the tranny is very efficient.

The I4 is rated at 182lbft. Yes, that doesn't sound much. However, the existing TSX is rated at 172lbft. With a 6MT, that car is capable of 0-60mph in 6.7s. The new Accord I4 6MT is also in the mid 6's range for 0-60mph. These are all capable of low 15's at 90+mph in the 1/4 mile. The TLX I4, despite being slightly heavier, will have 2 extra cogs, as well as DCT to make things even. 0-60mph in less than 7 seconds shouldn't be an issue. That would put it right in line with a 320i, and faster than a IS250 or ATS 2.5L.

To be fair, not many are as fast as the 335i in this class. The upcoming MB C400 might be faster, and the S4 is also faster. But those are also priced higher accordingly than the norm. The TLX I4 and V6 on paper compete well with the IS, ATS, A4, 320i, 328i. We will find out if that's true in the real world when the road tests are out.

Other than BMW and Lexus, which company also makes separate bumpers in this class of vehicles? Any links or pics?

Colin

2-3 versions times the number of exterior colors starts adding up quickly. The only choice would be to not have dealers stock them and ship 'as needed'. In the end, it's probably not too costly to make a mold as you noted, just that it's not profitable. Afterall, nobody knows RonJon's manufacturing cost, do people haggle him down to his cost? Sooner or later, everyone would know our cost and there'd be no money in it. (that's my theory anyway)

I can only imagine that the TSX kit (which, if memory serves, was the only to ever offer a whole bumper) was deemed a failure. I don't think we ever sold one, except for the 2-3 that were pre-installed making them a 'no option' option for a customer.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Mercedes, Audi, Infiniti, VW, just to name a few.

MB does different bumpers and grilles between their "luxury" line and "sport" lines of the same models.

Audi has the S-line bumpers that are available as an option.

Infinii uses different bumpers for their IPL cars, but also had different bumpers between the Sport and Journey versions of the same model.

VW offers an R-line trim on a few models and those are distinctly different from the regular bumpers.

Seems like this should be feasible for Acura to do as well.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Isn't that the point of doing marketing? If you were unable to mold people's opinions, consciously or otherwise, why bother with doing any fancy marketing at all? Why not just put up an image of the car and call it a day?


Marketing should not be a problem. Acura needs to decide on a brand identity and use its marketing to build a brand image. The constant flip-flop between being a Tier-1 brand or not seems to have resulted in a bit of identity crisis for Acura and results in somewhat disparate marketing. Heck, even a long-time buyer like me is struggling to articulate exactly what the Acura brand identity is these days. Unfortunately for Acura, the "Honda plus" characterization is probably not that far off from the truth.

The thing is that the competition continues to get better and expectations of what a car in this rather competitive segment should offer continues to grow. Fair or not, compared with the competition, the TLX is already a little bit behind, which makes it a bit of a disappointment based on the spec sheet and design. You have to remember that as consumers, our expectations are not shaped by the brand, but rather by the market. And right now, the market seems to be demanding quite a bit more of vehicles in this segment.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

The difference is that Acura insists on it selling as a dealer accessory while for many other brands, the distinct bumpers come as a part of certain trim levels of a particular model. Heck, Acura went through the trouble of offering a different rear bumper on the 2011+ TSX special edition so why would it be so hard to offer even one different option on a car that will sell in significantly higher numbers, especially given how unattractive the current kit looks.

Colin

^^ This has reverted to the age old argument about everything wrong with Acura. I know I've replied to each of your points in the past, probably time to move on.

jshaw

Nevermind BMW, MB, Lexus, Audi, Infiniti, and VW. Even Honda does it!
Civic sedan - Civic hybrid - Civic Si

Colin

^^ Isn't there a slight different in the sales volume of the Civic and the TLX projections?

jshaw

Isn't there a major difference of volume between a Civic and...:


an Infiniti Q50 with its standard and "sport" front ends?
a Mercedes Benz C and E class with their "luxury" and "sport" front ends?
a BMW's 3 series with its 4 different front ends?
a Lexus IS with its standard and F Sport front ends?
Most also have different rear bumpers.



None of these cars sell in Civic volumes, either.
Nor does the Civic hybrid. Nor does the Civic Si sedan.

fsttyms1

As opposed to all the different exterior colors for a lip kit that the dealers stock? How much more profitable is the lip kit, especially if the bumpers make the look that much better (the look that those are wanting)?

MANY, MANY manufacturers have different bumpers, Including HONDA.
If this offends anyone im sorry, but those saying it isnt profitable are only making excuses for Acura.

BEAR-AvHistory

Just two thing, his guess is just a guess & they did not make the number. If they had properly run the test they would have a good baseline number even if they hit the rev limiter in the 1:1 gear.

Broken in & light wheels are nice to speculate about but that is not what was tested.

I have a lot of dyno runs AT, MT & DCT & a 15% loss factor is a generally a very good number to use unless the manufacture is tanking the advertised rating.

My 335is had a tanked factory rating with 319whp vs 320hp advertised. Most normal 335 baseline DynoJet runs are around 265/270whp on 300hp advertised, about 11% loss. On a Mustang dyno they rate closer to 15% down.

Problem is the advertised number is a made up number for advertising & fitting into the model spread. It does not have a whole lot to do with what the engine actually produces. The BMW 300hp factory rated N54 early, N54 late & N55 early tested back to back at 282, 277 & 266 whp.

Nothing special about the Acura hitting an aftermarket industry norm on a DynoJet machine.

As for adding light wheels etc as soon as you start to bring in modifcations the TLX will get killed regardless of engine. With a JB4 those 5.4 to 60 328's will dip into the very high 4's to 60 & low 13's @ 105.

Point is they should be running a turbo 4 in the entry level & a new twin turbo V6 not a 14 or 15 year old N/A V6 in the high end car if they want to sell them as sport sedans.

Colin

The lip kits are far less expensive than the full bumper. Even then, they barely sell. As I said, I don't recall anyone buying the full TSX bumper, no matter how much better it looked.

BTW, aren't some people discussing two different things? On one hand, the Civic example shows different bumpers on three different cars. On the other, people (seem to me) to be talking about offering multiple bumpers on one car. In this case, you can't go to Honda and have them sell you a Civic Coupe bumper for your sedan, except as a replacement part. I think these are two different discussions.

dysonlu

To me, these bumpers look to come from the same mold. They only change the black portion where the fog lights are inserted. That portion is probably a separate piece that snaps onto the bumper.

BEAR-AvHistory

Right below the picture of the non-race so far race car in the TLX section of the main Acura site.

"With over 20 years of Acura racing history informing its design and development, the low, wide, aggressive TLX would look right at home on any race track—that’s because it is right at home on any racetrack. Meet the fearsome, twin-turbocharged TLX GT Race Car. In 2014, Acura will again team with RealTime Racing to contest the Pirelli World Challenge—this time in the premier class, against the likes of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche and McLaren. After the last race in September, we fully expect each of these legendary marques to start developing a four-door sports sedan for the 2015 season."

The whole thrust, no pun intended, of the TLX presentation is about performance & more performance. Not really sure how this squares with the cars actual chops.

Maybe a disclaimer at the bottom "don't believe everything you see/read on this page"

dysonlu

I hope nobody is expecting GT performance on the production TLX. It's about pedigree and halo effects. Many manufacturers do that. Not sure why it's a big deal when Acura does it.

BEAR-AvHistory

Question is if why hype the crap out of exactly that?

As was mentioned above its about hyping expectations that will not be met resulting in disappointment. This is a gross violation of Marketing 101. Some puffery is expected in most advertising but the whole roll out spread on Acura.Com screams killer car.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

I don't usually get personal here but I guess it's a pet peeve of mine because i often see this behavior in real life here and there; I had a feeling you weren't sincerely asking a real question, as if you didn't know the answer. It's kinda annoying ya know? Not the first time I saw you write like that. So if you know something just give the information straight like everybody else. Why try to challenge or ask a dumb question like a trap and wait for someone to fall in? We know you work for Acura, thanks. You may feel better because it makes you feel smarter. You aren't really. We are all intelligent in our own facets. Think about it.

I was thinking "concept car" when you asked the question. Those don't use production tooling. The prototype often does. I didn't really think about it when you asked. But indeed this was a TLX prototype not a concept.

I'm not a photographer either but I am pretty adept with my D-SLR. I understand what you mean about the focal length of the lens causing perceptive distortion that can mess with the proportions and how 2 photos can't always be matched and overlaid to scale. It's the major reason why proportions look different in photos than in person. But when you use 2 photos and look at them 2 dimensionally instead of 3 (i.e. side shot) even if there is perceptive distortion it tends to be symmetrical if the image is centered (unless the lens was really screwed up) and you would see it is being caused by optics.

Saying the concept used production tooling and perhaps this is just an effect of using larger wheels on a car that sits lower giving it the illusion of a tighter package makes sense. However;



The prototype just didn't seem to have this kind of profile at all. Sure, maybe this effect would disappear if I saw it in person and this could all still be about lenses. I have looked quite a bit at different pics of prototype vs. production from different sources. It could be either way, reality vs. distortion it's hard to tell. Truthfully I'd have to see both in person to figure it out but something is screwy.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Yea you are right about that, I saw that as well. There is canting of the wheels seen which would result in making the front/rear appear shorter. (almost like a mild fish eye lens effect.) Then at 3/4 view both cars look very similar.

But I looked at other pics of the side view from other sources.....Again the proportions look like what I originally stated but without the canting of the wheels. I dunno really hard to tell.