rob_acuraoflynnwood

Just wanted to give everyone a heads up. We have been working with CT-Engineering on a supercharger for the new TL. We hope to have the car back towards the end of spring. There is also a exhaust system that is almost ready and a Carbon Fiber Icebox. As soon as I have pictures and horse power figures I will post them.

SSGHutch

Great news! Yay supercharger!

Pete2010

Holy F yea!!! That thing is going to haul a$$!

prepreludesh

What a tease of a thread!

BoostLover

I sincerely hope this is real and not a tease; a supercharged 4G TL 6MT SH-AWD is *EXACTLY* what I want.

Will it be a Rotrex unit?

buckvegas

I don't think this is a tease. The OP is a legit source he was posting a lot in the tsx forum as "boostedtsx". There is video and dyno of his 09 tsx with CT supercharger/exhaust/icebox intake.

prepreludesh

More than likely it won't be a Rotrex unit, it's probably going to be a Roots-style unit like all other superchargers for the J-series engine.

docboy

I met OP briefly at a Seattle meet. He's legit.

Holy smokes, a "super charged" TL 6sdp??!?? Can we say, M3, competitor

BoostLover

I'm all for a positive displacement blower on the J37. Eaton makes a roots blower (also used on the new S4 - called the TVS) that is sized perfectly for the J37.

Keeping the fingers crossed that it's not a centrifugal or Lysholm blower.

Pete2010

I'm hoping soon after they come out with some higher end - stronger clutch... I'd imagine the stock one getting toasted with the supercharger and some decent rubber... something's gotta give..

BoostLover

x2

I don't particularly care for the stock clutch, personally. A good clutch would do wonders for this car.

Pete2010

I'm a major noob when it comes to stuff like this, I only know what I've read in the 3G forums when people boosted their cars. Any other benefits an upgraded clutch would provide?

BoostLover

An upgraded clutch may have several pros:

1) Increased torque capacity (duh).
2) Increased pedal communication to the driver (engagement/slippage).
3) Increased longevity.

It also may have several cons:

1) Increased driveline shock & engagement harshness.
2) Increased pedal effort.
3) Decreased longevity.

Longevity is in both categories; aftermarket clutches are designed to hold more torque. Depending on the driver's habits the longevity of a clutch is hard to predict. If the driver drives harder, slips the clutch more to smooth out starts, etc., it's unlikely that aftermarket is going to last longer than OEM. On the other hand, if the driver drives the same way, it's quite likely that the aftermarket lasts longer than the OEM.

My Evo's OEM clutch started to slip around 20K miles (lots of Evo owners toast the OEM clutch in 8K miles). My ACT aftermarket clutch is still holding after 45K miles. Generally, OEM clutches are designed to slip (or fail, in extreme cases) to protect the drivetrain. It's a lot cheaper to replace a clutch than it is a transfer case, front/center/rear differentials, transmissions, or halfshafts. When the clutch doesn't slip, the drivetrain must absorb and transmit the energy.

Basically, you can go faster but you can break stuff. (Solution: don't launch an AWD vehicle without aggressively slipping the clutch.) I don't see this as a huge problem given that Acura owners aren't likely to line up against a Mustang at a stoplight street race but sometimes your driving style changes when your car changes. (Incidentally, street racing is dangerous, illegal, and irresponsible.)

Acura owners seem to have a much lower tolerance (this is not a knock, just an observation) of NVH than Evo owners (duh) so I'm curious to see what the aftermarket produces in terms of clutches for the 6MT. Hopefully ACT will make one.

Pete2010

regarding the point "increased pedal effort"
Wouldn't this be on the pressure plate that would give you that kind of feedback? Or would the fact of replacing the clutch to something higher performing require upgrading other aspects of the transmission to support the stronger clutch?

BoostLover

Yes, you're right in that the pressure plate is responsible for providing part of the feedback. Clutch hydraulics, clutch disc, throwout bearing, pressure plate, and even clutch pedal are responsible for the rest of the feedback to the driver.

When we talk about "replacing the clutch," in the aftermarket world, we usually talk about a replacement of the disc, pressure plate, and throw out bearing as a matched set.

Generally, we do not touch the transmission or any other drivetrain components when we're just "replacing a clutch." This would be prohibitively expensive and require a lot of engineering to make it all works correctly together. The theory for this is that the drivetrain is engineered with such a substantial factor of safety that a mild increase in clutch engagement pressure won't cause problems downstream.

I've never seen a midly upgraded clutch accelerate the demise of a transfer case, transmission, etc. However, revving the engine to 5500 RPM, engaging 1st gear, dumping the clutch, and flooring the throttle might grenade your TC/tranny on a grippy aftermarket clutch. (This is one [stupid] way you can get a bone stock Evo to do 0-60 in 4.7 sec.)

You might have been able to get away with this on an OEM clutch that was designed to slip/fail under abuse.

Vancity_TL

Would there be an application for the automatic?

rob_acuraoflynnwood

As most TL car are autos I am sure that they are going to make one for the auto. The only real change that they would have to make is the tuning. I am pretty sure that the mounting points were the same on the 04-08 TL with the auto versus the 6-speed.

DaChef320

iTrader: (1)

wow makes me wanna get a new TL now

tidus888

Rob just made me thinking again...

i was actually looking to get the new S4... but if the new TL has S/C... different story!

tuning shouldnt be that bad i'd say. they now have Flash Pro for the S2000 and Civics and the same module should technically work on the new ECU. hopefully CT is working with honda data on this one!

it would make the system seamless and that wont be need for piggy-back or standalone ecu!

tidus888

ONE MORE THING!!!!

hopefully CT will somewhat think about maintenance.
on the 3G... after S/C

it would be an a** to change front spark plugs... JUMP the car... change battery.. =)

just a thought!

BoostLover

Think very long and hard about that S4, my friend. I'll tell you what won me over to the TL:

1) $10K differential between a fully loaded TL 6MT SH-AWD and a stripper S4.

2) The S4 will lose 40% of its value in the first 2 years of life VS the TL's 25%. This has a dramatic impact on your lease payment (if you choose to lease) and your cost of ownership (if you buy).

3) The S4 is having water pump (and associated seal) failures. Owners are being stranded on the side of the road with less than 5,000 miles on the clock. The water pump is plastic.

4) The S4 may develop carbon buildup in the intake tract as a result of EGR & PCV being recycled into the intake without the benefit of port injected fuel "washing" away these substances. This is a serious, recurring problem on almost every other direct injected Volkswagen-Audi Group (VAG) engine, including the $80K RS4.

5) The S4 owners are reporting sport differential (rear torque vectoring differential) gremlins; usually electronic and solved with a reprogram but obviously requires a trip to the dealer.

6) The S4 is a smaller car; rear seat legroom cannot compare to the TL.

7) Audi dealers are wankers. I arranged to test drive an S4 via online correspondence with Desert Audi (Las Vegas). When I arrived, the internet lady pawned me off on a salesperson, who I'd met about 6 months prior. He bluntly asked me when I was thinking about buying even though I'd made it clear to the internet lady via e-mail that I was cross shopping the TL. I told him the truth and he said that the only one they had was the one in the showroom and, "Someone's working a deal on that one." He offered to call me if another one came in but having wasted 30 minutes, I turned heel and told him not to bother. Bye bye Audi.

Pete2010

I was going to keep my TL for at least 100k miles, this just is going to make it that much easier to keep it... I can't wait to see what kind of power this is going to make at the wheels... very excited.

BoostLover

Has anyone dyno'd a stock TL 6MT on a Mustang Dyno? (Dynojet reads a little high)

Post your graph?

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

pics of exhaust tips PLEASE

Pete2010

I don't think we've seen ANY dyno's yet... do you have a dynojet dyno graph?

rob_acuraoflynnwood

I think that we will be sending a factory clutch to CT-E to have someone start the R&D process.

My TSX is running just a Hondata flash. I don't know how long or if the are going to make flashpro for the TL or my TSX the ECU's are a pain. And CT-E and Hondata have worked together on most of the newer supercharger systems.

I will post pics of the exhaust system on Mon or Tues for everyone. I will also see if I can get the base dyno numbers. CT said it was a pain to get the car on the dyno.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

^ what would be an expected ETA on the exhaust?

BoostLover

No - I don't even have the car yet! I want to see the actual 1 & 2 year depreciation figures in real life before I plunk down the cash (it's against my beliefs to borrow money).

I also want to see what happens with the mid model change - I've always had a lot of success buying the MMC cars using all cash after the rumors of the next all-new design come out.

A Mustang dyno or DynoJet plot of the all wheel torque would be most welcome.

BoostLover

I've heard this about the newer cars - they're smart enough to know they're not getting enough air through the cooling system to actually be driving as fast as the wheel rotations would indicate.

tidus888

for sure bro!... i have been thinking so much!!! haha

car wise.. i get both almost close to cost.. and the only thing beneficial is i have friend in audi working as service manager and also master mechanics ..but i know what kind of problems to expect....

sigh.. i just got sucked into the s4 coz of the interior! =)

still have time to think... good thing... a friend work as mechanic in acura! so warranty is also covered on my end! hahaa

BoostLover

Cost on the S4 is still like $10K more than the cost on a TL. $10K before income taxes was more like $15K.

The S4's interior is sublime - I'll give you that. Leave you with this: how many 10 year old S4s do you see driving around compared to 10 year old TLs?

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

^ Well......

People who buy S4's, generally, buy them to beat the shit out of it.. and drive fast...

as opposed to like 80% of TL owners, who just buy a luxury sedan to "cruise" with

Audi's are good cars.... the only reason i dont like them, is because like most luxury sedans, everything is optional, and the cost begins to rise quickly... turning it into a $55k car

Also, i think Audi's style... is becoming old... they need a major change on the 4/6 bodies.. i feel like, its all been a MMC, and no real heavy model year changes

NJ SHAWD

subscribed

dieseldub

i was originally looking at audi's as i was buying from a family friends network of dealerships, and the only mid to high end they have is acura/audi/porsche/lexus

i was going to pull the trigger on an a4 3.2 s line, then with options it was close to 60k canadian, then i found out the s4 is coming in a few months, but i could not wait, i wasn't going to pay 50k for a 2.0t audi either, so i walked over to acura, they had the manager prepare me a white sh awd, i took it for an hour, and i actually liked it a lot.

for the price, equipment, this car is not joke for what it is, an s4 fighter it will not be, even supercharged i doubt this car is going to hit 109 in the 1/4 mile. Take it for what it is, a somewhat sporty, high tech, manly car.

i love the way it looks and i'm loving my stock grill more and more, haters be damned

bradc2112

You have seriously caught my attention. I have an AT 4G SH-AWD, anyone have any idea on whether or not this application will work? Also any idea on hp/torque gains?

bradc2112

subscribed

BoostLover

Maybe. The '10 S4 is underrated (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/28/report-evidence-mounting-that-2010-audi-s4-is-underrated/); it makes around 300 to 330 AWHP and an almost equal number of ft-lbs. It runs a 13.2 @ 106 in the 1/4 (http://www.insideline.com/audi/s4/20...and-video.html) and weighs 3984 as tested.

The TL has a 20% bigger engine, a lofty 11.2 compression ratio w/o direct injection or DOHC; the TL also weighs like a wee bit less than the S4: 3,849 as tested (http://www.insideline.com/acura/tl/2...full-test.html)

To get the TL to run as fast, you'd need about 330 AWHP & AWTQ, all else being equal. My guess is that a straight blower bolt on would have to push a very mild amount of boost (~3 PSI) to keep detonation at bay. A modest increase of maybe 50 hp and ft-lbs might be realistic. This is probably not enough given the substantial torque deficient from which the TL starts (273 ft-lbs @ the crank VS 330 ft-lbs @ the wheels).

A more aggressive approach could change the head gasket, add an air/water intercooler, add fuel, intake, exhaust, and crank the boost. Forged internals may be necessary for reliability and a large enough change in compression ratio. With this level of mod, another 100 hp and 100 ft-lbs might be realistic. This might get the TL pretty close the S4 (stock). The only limits here should be cylinder pressures, tuning, and money.

The real issues will come from drivetrain considerations beyond a certain torque level - how much torque can SH-AWD handle?

25% more than stock? That seems like it would be within an engineering factor of safety.

50% more than stock? That seems like it might be OK as long as you clutch correctly. See previous posts in this thread for clutch considerations.

100% more than stock? That seems unlikely; breakage of something expensive seems highly probable.

200% more than stock? Something very expensive almost certainly will break.

400% more than stock? Well son, speed costs money - how fast do you want to go?

BoostLover

I doubt anyone will make actual HP/TQ gains without dyno graphs to prove it; America is litigious as heck about false advertising.

AT is going to be a tough one. Do you know what type of torque converter is in there? The torque converter (along with everything downstream of it) is going to be the weak link in the system beyond a certain torque output.

ATs have been much harder to mod on other cars, mostly due to the lack of suitable torque converter upgrades. At high enough TQ levels (maybe >50% over stock), think about the entire drivetrain:

Torque converter (AT) / Clutch (MT)
Transmission
Transfer case
Half shafts (front)
Differential (front)
Drive shaft
Differential (rear - where the magic torque vectoring lives)
Half shafts (rear)

Remember your brakes, too.

BoostLover

If you're lucky you can get an S4 for $55K. That $60K Audi in your driveway is going to lose 20% of its value in the first year - $1K / mo!

For most people, the payment on a loaded S4 is somewhere in the neighborhood of $800 / mo. Gas, insurance, maintenance are probably running on the order of another $350 to $500 / mo. Depreciation is $1K / mo.

$800 + $350 + $1,000 = $2,150 / mo.

Income tax is about 40% so the car actually costs $3,583 / mo. ($2,150 / 60% = $3,583)

If you earn $10K / mo gross, you're going to pay about 36% of your gross income into your S4. We didn't even discuss vehicle registration or repair costs beyond the Audi warranty period . . .

On the flip side, some say that you only live once but with these numbers, the S4's too rich for my blood.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Any update? Dying to see this....