bliss!

I brought my 7 month old 2011 TL to the dealer for a minor check and waited at the location since it was only an hour and a half's work.

An hour or so later, someone calls me over at the service area and tells me something happened. Heart sinks in already before they show me my car.

Apparently, one of their mechanic took it out for a test drive and he got clipped on the side by someone who drove past him. From what they have told me, the other drive is at fault. My front left door is scratched, the rear left door is dented and scratched, the rear wheel arch is heavily scratched. And the left rear wheel is scratched.

The first thing they tell me is they will repair everything on the house and that it will be like new. At that moment, I was so devastated I barely had anything relevant to ask or tell them except how they can expect to get an almost brand new vehicle back to its original state? It went on for a while longer and they kept pushing that it was an accident — and not one that is their fault but someone else's — that they could leave me hanging and ask for my insurance to claim the repairs and that they're helping me by doing it for free out of goodwill since apparently, after signing on the repair bill when I dropped the car, it was out of their responsibility.

Some more arguing ensued and they asked me to come back on Monday to see what we'll do finally. But they've agreed to only repair the front door and wheel arch by repainting and doing whatever it is you do to fix scratches and to replace the rear door panel and rear wheel. Balancing of wheels and suspension. And that is it.

I have asked friends but they're more about opinions rather than facts. Some say the most I should expect is the free repair since it was an accident while some say I should push for financial compensation or compensation of some kind. I do not have a copy of the repair bill I've signed and obviously I didn't read all the small print before I signed it (that'll teach me… but then again I'm positive I'm in the vast majority).

Just about everyone I've asked said it would be a waste of time and money to sue. We are located in Canada, I should add.

My thoughts after some time off from the whole thing are that it's technically a few scrapes only and the damage should be external. But I worry about further consequences down the line a few years later, with the suspension, chassis, rust.

I'm still not completely over it so some details may have slipped my mind. Please ask me if there's anything I would've missed that would help you share some thoughts about this.

DannyZRC

Well, if you were in the car and someone hit you, the most you could expect is that they repair it to a reasonable standard. They wouldn't be liable for delivering to you an uncrashed car in similar shape to your pre-accident vehicle.

The dealer is basically a proxy for you in this case, they are in fact being generous from a legal standpoint by offering to repair the car for you if the accident is in fact the fault of the other party, however the details of the accident may be worth noting. For example, do they have the insurance information of the at fault driver that hit your car? Can you make a claim against their insurance?

If the dealer can't substantiate that the other party is at fault, and no claim can be made against their insurance, then you could claim it on your comprehensive coverage, but the insurance company would surely go after the dealer, so the dealer would have to pay for it either way if it's their fault.

This is all based on a loose and unprofessional understanding of insurance in the USA, similarities to the Canadian justice system are assumed but not guaranteed, hopefully this gets the ball rolling with more discussion as well.

Terrible situation to be in though, my sympathies.

Mr Marco

OP This issue happens more than you think. In fact it happened to me when I had some body work done after my Speed6 was vandalized. It didn't find out until 6 months later when a friend at the shop told me that some newbie broke the driver side mirror off the car and the body shop fixed it without even telling me about the incident.
If you are made whole (that is the car is the same as it was when you brought it in for work), then you are not entiltled to any other compensation. However, if 6 months down the road the paint starts oxidizing and chipping and the wheel falls off then you might have a caseat, irregardless of what you signed.

bliss!

Very logic when put that way. But still a lot to stomach when you leave your prized possession to your dealer and it comes back crashed.Yes, the mechanic driving my car asked the driver who crashed into him to come back to the dealership. We have his information and I believe he'll be claiming his insurance. The people at the dealership recommended I do not get my insurance involved since they are covering all the costs of the repairs, hence no need for me to claim it.Thanks, I am taking it much better now after some consideration.Again, perfectly sound logic when put that way. But friends who are pushing me to ask for more put this idea in my head: what if I was planning on selling my vehicle? Am I not entitled to some compensation for that? This is now a vehicle that has been crashed. The value has gone down.

To be honest, I wasn't planning on selling it until a few years later but their argument makes sense to me but I've been known to not see through flaws in things when I believe in them, which I think is natural in most people.

Are they wrong in thinking that way? They're not asking me to try to rip them off or get some quick freebies out of them but that I'm the one at a loss here.

Personally, if they fix it and I can't tell the difference, I'll probably be satisfied but disgruntled (yes, I realize disgruntled means dissatisfied, you get the idea) but it's just the nagging feeling that my car won't quite be the exact same as it used to be when I left it with them. And you know that nagging feeling will keep on growing over time with everything that may or might go wrong later on.

Mr Marco

bliss, in the eyes of the law (in America), you were made whole.
To be made whole is a term used in reference to compensating a party for a loss sustained. In the U.S. the presise definition varies, according to contract terms and State, as well as, local laws. It could include either actual economic losses or to actual economic and non-economic losses, and not necessarily to the settlement value of the case. In the context of a automobile accident, it typically refers to the car being put back into the condition to which is was before the accident.

EDiT: After-all if you were to sell the car you would be selling a used car, not a new vehicle. If the dealer drove your NEW car with 0000005 km on it into a lake behind the dealership, then you'd be entitled to a NEW car.

DannyZRC

unfortunately, the depreciation visited on the car by it having an accident report tied to it's VIN is not something that is compensated for.

If you were to try to sell the car today, this could be a large hit in value, if you were to try to sell it later on, it would be a smaller $ change in value, etc.

If you get photos of the accident damage and keep them, it may help you when it comes time to move the car down the road.

bliss!

Thanks for the new pieces of information.

I am okay with them agreeing to repair things at their cost. I am wondering if they'll be willing to guarantee the work down the line.

Also, should I get my insurance involved in this case or not at all since I wouldn't need them to pay for anything? Should the accident still be reported to them?

omaralt

That's not true in America (not sure about Canada). In America if you get in an accident that's not your fault you can ask for a diminished value claim from your insurance. Most people don't know about this but it does exist. Good luck and sorry about your headache

diddy_nyc

iTrader: (1)

Thats totally F'ed up! Make sure that their work is covered by some sort of warranty that carries through your ownership of the vehicle. I would have hired a lawyer to formulate an agreement as such.

weather

BLISS!....I am very sorry to hear about your situation. I am also Canadian, if you don't mind me asking, where abouts in Canada are you from? I have often worried about this exact scenario everytime I take my car for any sort of service. It is very unfortunate but my question to you is this....If the other party is at fault, why would you need your insurance involved in the repair rather than the insurance of the driver at fault?

Are you living in a province where the "no fault" policy exist? The other question that I am wondering is why does everyone feel that the dealership is doing this guy a favor by repairing the car for free? Doesn't the dealership assuming any responsibility when taking a vehicle for repair? If they don't have their own insurance and uses the policy of the owner of the car, does that mean that technically, a mechanic could just take a vehicle and get involved in car accidents just for the sake of creating damage to a vehicle? To me, the moment you sign on the work order, until the moment you pay, the liability should be on the dealership. It seems ridiculous to me that a dealership can assume NO LIABILITY whatsover when you are paying them to service your vehicle.

That begs the question....If I take THEIR car for a test drive, and get involved in an accident, who's liable for the repair? My insurance or theirs?

In any event, BLISS!, it would be nice if you could post some pictures and again, I feel your pain. Hope that al will be repaired but as as much as I hate to say it, the durability of paint repairs is never as good as the original paint. I know some will say no but from my experience, the paint finish always flake etc. The color match will be flawless (unless its hard color to match) but with time, you will see its effect. And as you stated, you always have to declare your car was in accident on the day you sell it but as indicated DannyZRC said, the longer you wait, the more negligeable this will be.

I would make sure to trade it at the same dealership that damaged it so that way, you can argue that if they claim to give you less because the car was involved in an accident, you could say that it was their accident after all

Best of luck and the bottom line, an accident is an accident and I know the mechanic did not intentionally damage your vehicle but that being said...it's not your fault either.

keep us posted.

TullyMN

Is your dealership filing a claim against the other driver's insurance? If so, they aren't oing this out of kindness as they are being reimbursed for everything. If this was my car, I'd take it to a professional auto body shop and file a claim against the other driver. That way I know it was fixed right. At a minimum, I'd get a second quote on the repairs to make sure nothing is being hidden. An independent shop will provide that.

omaralt

It never hurts to get a second opinion but what's the point? Usually dealerships have the best body shops so your already probably dealing with the better body shop. And if they're filing a claim with the other drivers insurance what reason would they have to hide anything? My biggest concern would be if they were committing some kind of insurance fraud to bring in more work for their body shop (which I honestly doubt). Was their any kind of police report filed? Also make sure you take pictures of the damage; you never know if your going to need them (lawsuit?)

bliss!

I've searched online about this quickly and this is some kind of write-off your insurance company gives you to compensate for the diminished value after an accident?

To be honest, I would rather not get my insurance involved in this if possible. I'm thinking the likely increase in my insurance rates wouldn't be worth the amount of money they'll give me.Yes, totally F-ed up is right.

Yes, for sure I will ask them to offer some guarantee on the repairs done, I'll see what they say about that.Thanks, it still bothers me after a few days but I'm not as heartbroken as I was on the day of.That's what I'm thinking, that I don't need to claim it or let my insurance know about this, since the dealer is offering to cover all costs on them.

But I was asking more, on legal terms, do I need to let my insurance company know? Every friend I've asked so far said no but friends are just friends so what do I know.

I'm in Quebec so according to what I see online, we are "pure no-fault". From what I understand, that means each driver involved is responsible for their own claims with their own insurance regardless of what happened and that you can't actually sue for anything.

Could you elaborate on how this would apply to me? I'm not sure I understand this one perfectly.I think it would be your insurance, according to the paper I have on the loaner they gave me.I'll see what I can do once everything is done and settled, for sure.That I'm not sure.

But they gave me a copy of a form called "Joint Report of Automobile Accident" that states "Completing this Joint Report cannot in any way be construed as an admission of liability. Its purpose is strictly to help identify the parties involved in an accident in order to speed up the claim settlement." And it lists the mechanic as the person driving my vehicle, the guy who couldn't see my almost 4,000 lb and 16 ft long car and our insurance information.

I'm thinking, from the newly acquired information about no-fault policy, that the other driver will be claiming his insurance for his damage while my dealer is doing the repair out of goodwill.As much as I'd like to do that, it would be a lot of time spent outside of work, that I can't really get out of. And again from the new info at hand, we're responsible for our own claims in our province apparently.

As much as I do not wish to continue doing business with this dealership, I trust they have the best available tools, equipment and knowledge to do the work. It's a small city, there aren't much body shops that I would want to trust at this moment.

rd_dragon

Bliss! You are in fact entitled to a diminished value claim. This claim is evaluated independent of the property damage claim and typically performed after the car is repaired. I was rear-ended at the end of July and suffered $1,000 worth of damage to the rear of my 2010 TL. As such I filed a diminished value claim in addition to my property damage claim and was able to negotiate a settlement of $1,500 for the loss in value. In my opinion it doesn’t matter how good a repair shop is, a repaired car will always to worth less in value.

PM me if you would like to discuss further and I’ll send you my phone number. Maybe I can walk you through how to go about getting this resolved.

omaralt

the only question is whether canada does the same. if not i would at least ask the dealership for a free extended warranty or something

rd_dragon

I don't think you could get the dealership to pay the diminished value claim. It would need to go through the insurance carrier of the at fault party. If I read the posts correctly the dealership has all the information of the other driver. I would not be surprised if they are filing a claim against the other driver's insurance for the damage to the car.

A lot of insurance companies such as Allstate, State Farm, Farmers, etc. etc have divisions that are specifically devoted to diminished value claims. After the car is repaired an agent inspects the vehicle repairs and then prepares an estimate of the diminished value based on several factors. Some examples are the amount of damage (both severity and monetary), quality of repair, number of panels damaged, amount of paint work required (blending of panels), mileage, year of car, category of car (i.e. luxury)

Keep in mind this also plays into whether or not your car can become a certified as pre-owed should you wish to trade in the near future. I believe in most instances dealerships would probably go ahead and certify the car. However, the dealerships that I have dealt with in my area have stated to me personally that if more than 3 panels have been painted they will not risk going through the process of trying to certify the car for resale and instead will take the car straight to auction. I.e. a perfect explanation as to why they are offering less on the trade and further proof of an actual verifiable loss in value.

Hope this helps.

Devil Dog 21

Aside from the diminished claim value that you should be entitled to (assuming Canada is like the US) I would also keep extra copies of the police report, and all repairs with the car. I know it seems like common sense but when you go to sell the car or trade the car in it will go a long way for value if you prove every little detail of the accident. I know if I was going to buy a used car that had been in an accident I'd like to know that the repairs were done by the dealership and they were just scrapes. A carfax would probably only show "Accident" and then the buyer would have to go find the details and most likely wouldn't put in the effort unless you do the work for them up front. Just my

EazyRider562

Did you ever consider kicking his b*tt?

Mr Marco

only if you are covered for diminished value. And if you make a claim, even if you never collect any money, it is still a claim. You could end up paying increased premiums for nothing. Even if you did get some money from the INS Co. they'll get it back from you eventually. Trust me.

rd_dragon

Just to be clear. In the US you cannot file a diminished value claim on your own insurance. There is not a specific policy that you can obtain from your insurance provider for diminished value. To my knowledge the only insurance that would cover the difference between a payoff and payout for total losses is "GAP" insurance.

A diminished value claim only applies when a third party at fault damages your vehicle. I.e. you hit someone or are partially responsible for the accident you cannot file a diminished value claim.

You do not want to file with your insurance if at all possible. Mr. Marco is right. Even if your insurance company is reimbursed by the responsible parties insurance or in this case the dealership it counts against you. I have heard of instances in which just calling in to your insurance company results in a claim being reporting against the insured. Grant it is shows not at fault but it is still a claim. I would recommend calling your insurance agent, if you have one, and discussing the applicable laws relative to your state or providence.

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

Sorry to hear. Just be thankful they're offering to cover it. I've heard of countless stories of dealers not holding themselves accountable when one of their techs crash a customer's car. My uncle had his 5 series in for service years ago when a tech dropped a drill on the hood, leaving a massive, massive dent. The dealer (Kelly BMW of Columbus) didn't pay for it. Shady dealers are everywhere.

EazyRider562

He should've went to BMW of Long Beach, they serve with a smile!

winstrolvtec

Op, do not involve your insurance company by any means. Your best bet is getting the dealer to cover the cost and maybe it won't show up or be reported if it's on the arm and done within their network.

In general, even if an accident is not your fault in the slightest and you file no claim of your own, even if your insurance company doesn't cough up a dime, just the fact that you were operating the vehicle often qualifies you as a higher risk driver. You are always better off claiming that it was vandalized and that it was not being operating when possible.

In any event it looks like either the dealer or the other party's insurance will cover this so theoretically you should be fine. Just make sure you are happy with the work and do everything in your power to be reimbursed for dimished value. You did nothing on your end that was responsible for the additional depreciation this will cause, you should be entitled to that value or compensation.

Not sure if it was asked or covered already but establishing if it's the dealer or the other person's insurance will help determine the best course of action and if there was a police report for the actual accident.

EazyRider562

winstrolvtec, what you said is all wrong regarding your insurance going up if its not your fault.

can i ask, where did you get this invalid information?

potmilkz

anytime you use your insurance to pay for repairs, you run a high risk of them raising your rates.

they will question, and often, you are not the decision maker on to weather if its your fault or not, even though on papers, it states that it is not. you and your car has been in accident and that is all they will go by. keep in mind, they are a business too.

but usually, if you get into accident, you rarely go through your own insurance if its not your fault. if you are, then you are dumb.

EazyRider562

no you don't, i was an insurance claims representative for 10 years, i think i would know! dont you think?

winstrolvtec

^That helps explain your position........ but all joking aside, there are a number of variables that go into what determines your rates, there are different companies and there are varying state laws.

Just being an insurance rep and whether you may or may not have been a part of anything like this first hand does not mean these type of practices do not exist, it's obvious they do, it has happened to me personally and a number of close friends and family members. The insurance companies even admitted to it themselves in most of these cases, stating that simply being a part of an accident even if it's not your fault can give you high risk status and therefore your rates could be affected.

Like I said, states and their laws vary but in all honesty, I still find your comments and position on the matter a little troubling. To be clear, my suggestion to the OP more generalized is still to simply avoid going through his insurance as much as possible which is also the consensus here and for the very reasons you are disagreeing with.

I respect that you are or were in the business but you can't insist that what happened to me, people I know, and several others here that what we are saying didn't happen and for the specific reasons why. In any event, with any claim you always run the risk of increased premiums but with no claim, there is no chance of a claim related increase.

EazyRider562

Have you ever heard of comparitive negligence? Probably not because you weren't a claims representative like myself. IMO you should probably just cut your losses because what you're saying is completely wrong.

Do some research and get back to me. You'll thank me for it later.

And one question, why are you hanging around a bunch of friends and family member who consistently getting into accidents. You might wanna consider getting new friends.

potmilkz

may i ask how much you pay for your own insurance? and what company do you use?

all you wrote back to us is that you were right.. but didnt explain how? and why?

just because you stated that you have 10 years of experience doesnt back yourself up.. show us some proof..

potmilkz

btw, this is a dumb statement, people get into accidents, people make mistakes. your an idiot for thinking like that..

winstrolvtec

I am not even talking about it going that far, there was no bodily injury, no lawsuits, or percentages of assigned fault. To an insurance company, even a minor fender bender is still an accident especially if they have to pay for it (or a portion of it) and if it shows up on an MVR (regardless of fault) but you already know this. Thankfully, I am not suggesting these were serious accidents.

You keep insisting on me being wrong without proving yourself to be right. I wouldn't expect someone on the inside to be very forthcoming about how insurance companies rip people off.

Let me give you a more specific example, car B rear ends car A who had already been stopped at a light for some time, driver B admits to have not been paying attention to distance and stopping, this is also established in the police report, and insurance company B agrees to pay for all damages and then proceeds to do so. No involvement with insurance company A whatsoever. As far as anybody knew, they didn't even know about it.

When it's renewal time for driver A, the rates increase. A phone call to the insurance company ensues and driver A learns the insurance rates increased solely because the car and the driver were involved in an accident, regardless of the fault. This was indicated by the MVR which does not assign or determine fault. No claim went in to them and they paid for absolutely nothing but that didn't stop them for considering the driver to now be a higher risk and raising the premiums based only on the driver's abstract. They wouldn't even entertain an appeal or an investigation of fault, some kind of special consideration, or anything.

Explain that one to me and please don't tell me it didn't happen. I will also mention that a quick change to another company a week later proved to not only be much cheaper but also no indication of a high risk status reflected in the premium as I assume proper (fair) underwriting and consideration was given.

potmilkz

^^owned

rd_dragon

Winstrolvtec I can personally attest to the exact scenario you have illustrated. My wife was rear ended a few years ago, not at fault, and low and behold it showed up on our insurance record. Mind you the claim was handled by a different insurance company than the one we were insured by. Spoke to my agent who stated that this is common practice by some companies to report in this manner. It shows as not at fault but nonetheless I did see a rate increase. Depending on the insurance company an accident can remain on this report from 3 -5 years. So about the time my wife’s accident is going to come off our insurance record I’m rear-ended. So I get to start all over and will not see a drop in my insurance premiums.

under9hell

Same situation for my girlfriend 2 years ago. She never had an accident, never claimed insurance in her life, then suddenly got into three, two rear ended and one on the side. None of that was her fault and everything was paid by other insurance companies. Her premium immediately increased at renewal cause they said she had involved in accidents! She ended up with a new insurance company.

potmilkz

see eazyrider, proof is there, your words against theirs..




Do some research :wink: You'll thank me for it later.

Mr Marco

Reading all these posts just makes me hate insurance companies even more. Sure they have been there for disaster victims, but they screw the rest of us out of our hard earned money to make up for it.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

Out of curiosity: (1) what does comparative negligence have to do with what happened with the OP (leaving the car at the dealership for service) and (2) what does comparative negligence have to do with say someone who was innocently sitting at a red light or any person for that matter who is not the at fault driver?

fsttyms1

It all depends on the company. Not all are the same. I have filed 3 claims now for accidents, none my fault and my rates have NEVER gone up from them. I think i would know, as i pay the bill every month.

Acura2010

Hey, where in Canada are you? I'm also in Canada, in Ontario. I'd be interested in knowing what dealership. Hope it's not my dealer!

potmilkz

i use AAA.. which i think is the cheapest in socal..


full coverage.. im 23, and only paying 900 a year.. 100k/300k coverage with rental agreement.. cant wait till i hit 25, to see the rates drop even more.. oh btw i got 2 points on my record..