docboy

So this week my low engine oil light came up and went away...twice. Both times it was when I was starting from a stop and made a turn. I wasn't sure if my oil sensor was malfunctioning, or if the oil was sloshing around.

I had a hectic and busy week, so yes, I realize I should have checked oil level right away, but I didn't have the time or energy, and I had a crap load of business/personal obligations I had to deal with. So yes, today was Saturday and I finally had some time to think and deal with this oil issue, so I'm dealing with it now.

I already got flamed from posting on the 4G TL Facebook site re: my low oil level light, so I'm not looking to get flamed again here. I'm looking for helpful advice, not attacks plz.

I just wanted to know what your guys experience with the 4G TL 3.7V6 engine has been wrt oil consumption. My search on AZ suggests some people are having oil consumption at differing levels, but mine seems to be most excessive.

When I checked the oil dipstick today, and the oil didn't even show up on the dipstick! I put in 2 quarts of Mobil 1 synthetic 5W-20 before the oil finally showed up halfway between the low and high markings.

My last oil change was Sept 2013; today 3,000 miles later and at 50% oil life left, I'm 2 quarts low! Currently my TL has 46,300 miles; I'd say weekday city driving, and weekend 50/50 city/highway.

Any tips/advice?

JasonK

First of all it's recommended you change your oil every 3 months or every 5-10k so 8-10k with mobile 1 synthetic.

You might have a couple problems and it could be the engine so you might be looking at 1 grand to 4 grand worth of fixes if it is.

Could be the piston rings, valve guides or seals.

Do you have a blue puff of smoke when starting the car in the morning?

nj2pa2nc

is this the first time this has happened. Changing oil every 3 months is no longer necessary. I have followed the maintenance minder on my tsx since new. No loss or burning oil. By some slim chance, seeing that you have a 2010 tl, is it still under warranty. The could have, should have is over-at least you did not have no oil in the car. good luck.

amill

Every 3 months is very excessive. Especially for synthetic which does not hold moisture like conventional oil.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Doc, I've researched this pretty carefully online. Here are my conclusions: 1) Some 4G TL owners have oil consumption, many have none; 2) among those with consumption, it skews towards the 6MT owners. I've seen reports from MDX owners (with the 3.7 motor) but it does not seem too pervasive or consistent with that vehicle.


My TL uses a little b/t changes. It's up and down, but I've been keeping informal records and it seems like about a quart every 4K miles. I drive mine rationally, about 50% highway/50% city and secondary streets. I change my oil according to the maintenance minder. If I changed at 3-5K like we all used to do, I'd probably not even notice that the level was going down. As is, my changes come up about every 7500 miles, so I usually need to add oil b/t change.


The good news is we have a 6 or 7 year powertrain warranty on our cars. I'd report it to your dealership just so there's a record within the warranty period, but I doubt they'll justify any warranty repair.


I've owned a number of Honda/Acura products and this is a new experience for me. All I can say is regularly check the oil and drop it by the dealer while it's still in warranty to make sure there's nothing obviously wrong.

14thandeuclid

Rear main seal.

ucf_bronco

iTrader: (1)

It's actually recommended that you follow the MID. You gotta hope that the engineers who designed this engine have a better idea of when to change the oil than some outdated, general rule. For me it's about every 5-6 months & 7k miles and I've never let it get below 15%.

Fortunately I don't seem to burn any oil. OP, I would definitely suggest you mention it to the dealer to get it on record, like JM mentioned.

docboy

I follow the MID for A1 (oil change) service.

Me being 2 quarts short is a bit alarming, since our engine's oil capacity is what, 5-6 quarts? If I were short 0.5q or so, I wouldn't worry so much. But 2 quarts is a lot IMHO.

I'm definitely calling the dealership this week to see what's going on.

docboy

Interesting. Can you explain? Thanks.

Reorge

Oil consumption seems to be an ongoing issue with Honda. The V6 engines with Variable Cylinder Management have had their warranty extended via a lawsuit because of this issue. I know that when I used to change the oil in my Ex's Odyssey with VCM it was always a 1/2 to 1 quart low.
Actually our engines only hold 4.5 quarts so 2 quarts low is significant. I agree with the suggestions to have the dealer look at it and get it on record. Also, keep a log of the oil level every 1,000 mil or so. Keep in mind, it's not the dealer you have to convince that you have a problem. It's Honda/Acura corporate. Give the dealer data to get it covered under warranty.

AlexG_6MT

iTrader: (1)

From what I read it seems to somewhat common with the 3.7. Yours seems a bit more severe then others on here. You have a 7 year power train warranty that would cover an oil burning issue. From previous posters, Acura requires it to burn at least 1 qt. in 1000 miles to deserve a warranty repair. Go to your dealership and note the problem, they will log it and likely want you to come back every 1000 miles to note the oil level. 2qts in 3000 miles seems pretty severe and close to the limit, you may be on luck!

docboy

Good info so far everyone. Thanks. Would you suggest I see my dealership first, or call Acura HQ?

AlexG_6MT

iTrader: (1)

Dealership. They will be responsible for communicating with Acura HQ. It will be helpful to have a great dealership on your side because they will be the one going to bat for you, their customer, to get your problems resolved. Especially in a case like this, Acura won't want to begin to deal with the problem until a certified tech has seen and diagnosed the problem.

Edward'TLS

Docboy, has your TL been burning engine oil since 2010, or has it just started recently ?

docboy

To be honest, hard to say. It MIGHT be a more recent occurrence, but now that you asked, I believe this warning light has come up once before 1 or 2 years ago and also disappeared.

At that time, I brought this oil issue up to the tech at my dealership when I was trying to get my 3rd gear set popping issue resolved, but he mentioned it was due "oil sloshing around." I didn't think much of at that time however b/c I was dealing with the 3rd gear synchro issue.

mylove4cars

The question equals WHY?


There are quite a few effects that will cause unusual oil usage or burning,


1) Damaged or worn valve guides


2) Damaged or worn valve seals


3) Collapsed, broken or stuck piston rings


4) Damage pistons


5) Damage piston walls


6) Clogged breather valve


7) Oil leaking from seals and gaskets


Signs of oil burning are usually accompanied by Blue Smoke from the exhaust when it is started or running depending on what part is defective or damaged and how bad the damage is. Oil leaking can also contribute to excessive oil usage and this is something that will be seen after you park and let the vehicle sit awhile. Most oil leak repairs are fixed by replacing a seal or gasket.


If valve guides are worn blue smoke will be seen when the engine is started, usually after it has run and then sits awhile.


If valve seals are worn or broken blue smoke will be seen when the engine is started, usually after it has run and then sits awhile.


If the piston ring seize, break or collapse in their groove, oil will pass causing the excessive oil burning. Damaged pistons and rings will cause oil burning and excessive blow-by. This will also cause the exhaust smoke to be blue when driving or at idle depending on how bad the oil is leaking past the piston rings or valve guides or seals.


When an engine is using oil it is caused by defective piston, rings or valve parts and the engine will need to be removed and over hauled. It’s a time consuming job and very costly depending on the vehicle.


If you are told the oil burning is normal don’t accept that just because the dealership is telling you. In fact if you call an engine repair shop that rebuilds engine they will tell you when an engine is burning oil it will possible need to be overhauled, that means all intern parts will need to be cleaned and replaced as needed.


The good news is the lemon law applies to all new and used vehicles with a warranty. If you are given the run the engine oil burning is normal, don’t accept that as a final word when help is available at no cost to you in most cases.


Btw. Just out of curiosity, check your oil when cold and as well when engine is warm; take a bit oil from the dip-stick and check the viscosity, let me know.


Good luck and drive safe - Roland

docboy

/\ AWESOME informative post Roland. Thanks, that's what's AZ is all about!

I'll keep you updated. I'll also check the color of the smoke and see if I notice any discoloration.

ressling

Most people talk about looking for blue smoke, but I say use your olfactory senses. If something smells even slightly off, usually you know you've got an underlying problem. As others have stated, Honda's are notorious for oil consumption issues. My 2001 Prelude was notorious for burning about 0.5 qts every 750-1000 miles.

If it were me, I'd start looking at the valve seals and gaskets, as that is usually the culprit.

docboy

Update: I called the dealership this morning for an appointment to have the TL looked at. Apparently they were all full due to "tow-ins." Gal offered tomorrow morning but my schedule is not open until Fri.

So I have a set service tech appointment this Friday. Will keep you guys updated.

slippy

I also have a 2010 6mt and am also burning oil so here's what will happen, or at least is happening to me.

First they will tell you you need to do an oil consumption test, where they change the oil and you go back every thousand miles for them to check the dipstick.

They will probably tell you burning up to 1 quart per thousand miles is normal (mine did as well as others on the internet).

If you're unlucky like me, the first two checks you will be under 1 quart per thousand, on the third you might be over (as oil gets worn the engines might burn more which explains this, I ended up burning 1.2 quarts in only 800 miles my last check in).

You get excited that they will take care of your issue.

You get a call from Acura saying it is normal for the car to burn up to one quart every thousand miles and that there is nothing wrong with you car.

You call client relations, and they won't tell you how much is considered normal, just some arbitrary amount, not written down anywhere at Acura according to your rep.


That's where I am now, I am stuck with a car that burns more oil than they say is normal, but still won't warranty and they won't tell me what the real threshold is. I am not sure what to do, I may end up having to take them to small claims court over this, if anyone has any ideas I would love to hear them.

But to you good luck, hopefully they fix your issue since they refuse to fix mine.

EE4Life

Here is Acura Job Aid BJA45263 - Engine Oil Consumption Test
http://techinfo.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/FF/BJA45263.PDF

slippy

Not authorized to view it, could you save it some how.

EE4Life

See this thread for instructions on how to view the links.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...57&postcount=1

EE4Life

Here are two TSBs for the TSX with the 6-speed manual transmission related to excessive engine oil consumption. The TSBs list circumstances and conditions as possible causes.
There are no such TSBs for the TL, but the circumstances and conditions could apply as well.

TSB 12-042 - 2011–13 TSX: Excessive Engine Oil Consumption
http://techinfo.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/B12-042.PDF

TSB 13-006 - 2009–10 TSX: Sticking Rings Resulting in Unusually High Engine Oil Consumption
http://techinfo.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/B13-006.PDF

docboy

Mind me asking which state you are located in?

The above news is not encouraging.

What are long term engine ramifications of this extreme oil consumption we are experiencing? Sounds like an expensive oil job on par with the Porsche 911 if I end up having to add 2-4 quarters of synthetic 5w-20 between oil changes.

slippy

I live in Mass but this is not determined by the dealer but by Acuras engineers. That's also why they won't tell me how much lost they consider to be a problem.

mylove4cars

Doc, you need to concentrate on substantially impair


Substantially impair means to render the under warranty motor vehicle unreliable, or unsafe for ordinary use, or to diminish the resale value of the motor vehicle below the average resale value.


In your case


Specifically; diminished resale value, you cannot sell the vehicle under a negative specific condition without losing money.


Comparable Issues
American Honda Motor Co. recently settled a class-action lawsuit that alleged it manufactured 1,593,755 defective vehicles that excessively burn oil and require frequent spark plug replacements. The settlement pertains to all U.S. purchasers and lessees of 2008-12 Accords, 2008-13 Odysseys, 2009-13 Pilots, 2010-11 Accord Crosstours and 2012 Crosstour vehicles equipped with six-cylinder engines that have variable cylinder management. Accord vehicles with four-cylinder engines are excluded from the settlement.


The original lawsuit alleged the vehicles contained a "systematic design defect that enables oil to enter into the engine's combustion chamber." The alleged defect led to "premature spark plug degradation and engine malfunction," according to court documents. Honda denied the allegation, despite receiving hundreds of online complaints on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration website, and on carcomplaints.com concerning the 2008 Accord alone. Most of the complaints alleged that Honda said it was normal for a powertrain to burn a quart of oil every 1,000 miles. The lawsuit claimed Honda refused to perform warranty repairs for the vehicles and, instead, instructed customers to check their oil every time they get gas.
Under the conditions of the settlement, which is still pending approval from the Court, Honda agreed to extend the powertrain limited warranty for up to eight years after the original sale or lease of the vehicle.


If you need more info, pm me
Good luck - Roland

mylove4cars

Doc and Slippy,


Substantially impair can equal diminished resale value, you cannot sell the vehicle under a negative specific condition without losing money.


You need to build a case; in these circumstances talk to your dealer and summarize. Words are not enough. (Write to the dealership; do not take anything for granted) (Create a paper trail).
1. If you want to sell your vehicle and you have to tell potential buyers about your excessive oil consumption, the value will be significantly less, a lot of potential buyers will see this problem as a kiss of death, resulting in an extreme loss on your part


2. Checking oil each time you gas-up? A nuisance to say the least!


3. Have to add oil, in your case (extreme). A nightmare to say the least, resulting in an uncomfortable feeling and taught of unreliability, further more giving you angst.


Btw. I won a very similar case in Europe against MB (In Europe it's much harder, liabilities are not on the same level than in the US)

aphmd

Please see the thread that I started in 2010: https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-problems-fixes-297/oil-consumption-784028/

I believe that there is a serious oil consumption problem with the 3.7 V6 engine, and Acura is playing the "never heard of this problem" card. This is a great case for a class action suit. With this engine, Acura created the new term, "oil guzzler".

docboy

I'm wondering if the oil consumption issue is the reason why the 2G RDX, the new MDX, and the upcoming TLX will be using the 3.5 V6 and NOT the 3.7 V6?

6spd10

Hello Everyone,
Im writing to this post even though it has nothing to do with oil consumption but because there seems to be some manual transmission people reading this.
I have an issue with the covering on my 2010 TL steering wheel (with manual transmission) and the steering wheel is unique on the MT. no paddle shifters.
The covering is splitting on my second steering wheel after 2 months just like the original one did. Acura said they have never seen this before so it must be something I am doing.
I am thinking maybe they have a bad batch of steering wheels that only go on 5 % of the TLs.(manual transmission) which is why they may not normally see this problem. I take extremely good care of my car and do nothing that would ever damage the steering wheel. It is just plain DEFECTIVE like the last one. Has anyone else had issues with the steering wheel cover?

JM2010 SH-AWD

^^ Sorry, no issues with the steering wheel cover on my 6MT.

probmxstyle

Just checked my 2012 6mt because of this thread. Mine was at the minimum mark at 50% oil life. I guess I will have to make sure to check it more often. Seems like mine is burning, but it's definitely not burning the required 1qt every 1500 miles.

prepreludesh

I've also got a 2010 6MT. I haven't noticed a significant loss in oil, although I have every reason to fear that I will. Back in the fall of 2010, I was driving down the highway, wondering why my car seemed to be "smoking" because of a trail of what I thought was white smoke. Then my oil light started to flicker and I pulled over quickly and shut it off. Actually, I think I coasted up the onramp and parked it on the side of the road. I looked under the car and noticed the rest of my oil dripping out. In the end, it was because the oil filter either was defective or was improperly torqued and developed a leak so large it drained my engine. I'm unsure if the dealer properly annotated this on any database, although they told me they did, but I received no paperwork. Their reassurance to me that everything would be ok was that "you used Royal Purple at the last oil change and that stuff is so good, you could probably run the engine for a little while with no oil in it." Uhhhh, yeah right.

So anyway, that's my story. I'm out of warranty, both powertrain and normal (75,000 miles on the odometer) but so far, no serious oil consumption issues. Maybe at the most I've added a quart between oil changes (I also follow the MID). I try to use either Penzoil Ultra or Royal Purple for every oil change.

I've also not had any steering wheel issues for the other concerned poster.

docboy

mylove4cars,

What is your opinion on what I should do?

I have dealership appointment this Friday. Start off by writing a letter re: the 2 quarts I had to add/low engine oil light and handing it to the service tech this Fri? Thanks.

Acura2010

I'm with you on this issue also. And it's the EXACT same scenario. I noticed my oil light flicker turning left from a stop. That's what initiated my call to the dealer back in October. They started oil consumption test on my car. Still observing, i'm at 40% oil life now. My rate of oil consumption is about 1L per 3,000km. (BTW i'm in Canada) Acura thinks it's in their "normal" range of operation. They claim that they will only warranty work if it consumes more than 1L per 1500km. I disputed this, and have taken it up to Acura Relations. They have since been in contact with my Service Manager, and agreed to honor the work needed to fix this issue. However they want me to continue the Oil Consumption test for a full oil life cycle. Acura wants a full oil cycle to analyze the average consumption and kilometers. So, i'm currently down to 40% on my MID, dealer has been adding oil and recording everything throughout this oil life so that i don't run out of oil. My car is consuming enough oil that i would not be able to go through a whole oil life cycle without adding oil. So, once my MID gets to 20%, a decision will be made as to what they intend to do, either new block, new seals etc. My car is a 2012 TL SH-AWD 6MT, i currently have 65,000km on the car, which is similar to your miles.
Let me know what your Dealer says, i'd be interested in knowing how they handle your situation which is exactly the same as mine.

sympley

I will be visiting my dealer soon as well. 2012 TL with MT 42,000km and I am burning approx. 1 liter for 10,000km. Not as bad yet as some others but definitely burning enough not to get me from oil change to oil change. At the very least it will go on record so that it can be registered.

mylove4cars

Doc,
Listen what they tell you first, according to their answer you will construct and write your letter (Always mail certified, signature required).


Nobody stated when you purchased the car that this is part of the deal; (neither your obligation having to add large amounts of oil for maintenance purpose, preventing the vehicle to acquire excessive damage) this is not part of your maintenance schedule.

If you need any help, let me know. It’s all about you losing money.

docboy

Update:

I brought the TL to the stealership this morning. Tech examined the vehicle and claimed:
1) The oil sensor is defective and malfunctioning. Claimed there was a TSB on the oil sensor on the 2010 TLs, and the tech recommended replacing the oil sensor. "A known issue" he says. My TL is just past the 4yr/50,000mile mark; tech said per Acura, oil sensor is past the 4yr/50k mi general warranty and not considered powertrain warranty (6yr/70kmi).

I tried to argue that given the TSB, it should be a no charge warranty repair. Tech declined. So I ended up giving the go ahead to have the oil sensor replaced.
2) After my adding of 2.0quarts oil, tech found the TL's oil was 0.4Q low. So he topped off the oil as well, claims the dealership doesn't if my oil change guy added the correct amount of fluid, which I call BS.

3) As someone mentioned above, service tech wants me to bring in the TL after 1,000 miles. Service tech printed me out an "Advisor Guide" that Acura has on their computer system; it states that if oil is burnt at a rate of 1 quart per 1,000 miles then there will be an engine eval as part of powertrain repair.

Guide also states that if oil is burnt at a rate of 1Q per 1,000-3,000 miles this is considered normal, no repair needed.

So at the end of the day, I spent $150 to have a claimed faulty oil sensor replaced. I have the curious hunch the dealership is trying to play me, but we'll see what happens at the 1,000 mile mark.

I have to admit, I'm getting on my last legs with Acura. I thought that Honda engines were supposed to be bulletproof, but I guess not. If at the 1,000 mile mark the oil issue is not resolved, I will have lost my faith in Acura and likely head towards Porsche or Tesla. Acura has a lot to learn from Elon Musk on how to treat its customers and stand by its products.

EE4Life

Here is the TSB on the faulty engine oil pressure switch:

TSB 09-012 - MID or Navi Shows a Check Engine Oil Level Message, Low Oil Pressure Indicator May Be On
Applies To: 2009–11 TL – ALL
http://techinfo.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/B09-012.PDF