'04 to '08 front lower control arm bushing failure - please read and look
07-07-2009, 03:06 PM
#203
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yea my rear alignments r lil off, i'll be replacing all 6 front bushings and the whole rear control arms tomorrow morning, already spent $170 for the parts don't know how much would the labor cost but if thats gonna fix the problem i'll be happy, i'll post the results tomorrow
07-07-2009, 05:30 PM
#204
practicing nihilist
GGYY
We talked privately about this handling issue. I don't think it related to the bushings. The TL tracked good brand new but was twitchy with a light hand and you felt the road through the wheel. All pluses in my book. Cars are never as good as the first 10K miles, though.
I was prepared for the harshness that might come when going with 19s however, my handling issues like GGYY described above first showed at about 40K, right before I switched out the stock running gear. Now, my wife and I are both guilty of ramping a curb, so I'm sure a bent wheel is to blame for my vibe above 65 mph but, its not always noticeable and usually bent wheels can be felt more at slower speeds. Dunno. Lots of aligns and balances since then.
Anybody know of a sure fire way to target a bent wheel?
We talked privately about this handling issue. I don't think it related to the bushings. The TL tracked good brand new but was twitchy with a light hand and you felt the road through the wheel. All pluses in my book. Cars are never as good as the first 10K miles, though.
I was prepared for the harshness that might come when going with 19s however, my handling issues like GGYY described above first showed at about 40K, right before I switched out the stock running gear. Now, my wife and I are both guilty of ramping a curb, so I'm sure a bent wheel is to blame for my vibe above 65 mph but, its not always noticeable and usually bent wheels can be felt more at slower speeds. Dunno. Lots of aligns and balances since then.
Anybody know of a sure fire way to target a bent wheel?
07-08-2009, 04:42 PM
#205
Fire/medic
hmm, I have been chasing a come and go vibe at 65+mph. Not always there, but usually. Steering is a bit light at speed and has a tendency to track road imperfections. I feel that there's a little left pull on harder braking. The alignment has been attacked multiple times by a very patient shop and it's as close as it gets without an Ingals kit. I'm going to have the balancing checked one more time, as well.
Should note that I have 19x9's with 245/35/19 General UHP's. Brand new Koni Yellow's, H&R springs and Progress RSB. This problem arose on the stock suspension, wheels and tires although, tires were just about shot.
I had dealership check front end and all mounts and they just blamed it on the wheel/tire/spring setup.
I'm checking these out pronto - only 3K miles of standard warranty left.
Should note that I have 19x9's with 245/35/19 General UHP's. Brand new Koni Yellow's, H&R springs and Progress RSB. This problem arose on the stock suspension, wheels and tires although, tires were just about shot.
I had dealership check front end and all mounts and they just blamed it on the wheel/tire/spring setup.
I'm checking these out pronto - only 3K miles of standard warranty left.
07-08-2009, 06:07 PM
#206
Fire/medic
Original thread:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...hlight=bushing
I've been really disappointed in Acura's service (specifically Kush Kearny Mesa in San Diego but seems to be trend in other dealers too) since when the car is new. I can talk about all the issues I've had with them if people are interested but this is the latest.
Ok, so here's the deal: My friends and I have 3 TLs all from 2004. We have all owned them since new. All have low 40k miles. ON ALL 3 04 TLs, BOTH the right and left front compliance bushings are ripping. (Pics are shown below of my TL but they all look similar)
We finally had time and took 2 of the cars into the dealer to show that the design is flawed and have 100% failure well within waranty mileage. (although we fell outside of the 4yrs before finding the failure).
The response from Acura is that since its outside the timeframe of the waranty, they out of good-will Acura will repair it for $305. (They're saying normally its $500)
Acura is saying that this is a "wear" item and therefore anything they do outside of waranty is extra.
In addition, they say that they have NEVER seen this problem?!?!?!?!?
My problem with this is:
1. Since this bushing is failing 100% all under 50k miles (to me this is unacceptable since it is well short of the car's life as Honda advertised reliability)
2. Catagorizing this as a wear item is wrong (This is not brakes or tires or oil, and bushings are to be used for cushion not wear). Its supposed to wear out as the car nears the end of life cycle not during their mid life similar to a engine mount bushing. Atleast not fail 100% of the time at this time frame.
3. I live in the coastal area of SoCal. Weather is nothing compared to midwest or east coast. Saying that rubber wears out over time (4yrs old) for a car that sits in a garage in nice 70% humidity, low rain, no snow, no salt, nice paved road area is just stupid.
3. comment about never seeing this problem - This is a problem that will only be noticed once the bushing rips all the way through. Before that a user will never notice it unless they looked for it. I only found it when I had my wheels off and was chaning rims. Also I have had to replace that same bushing on a civic so I inspected it. In addition it seems to be present as long as a person looks for it.
4. The use of a bushing in that manner WILL cause the rubber to fail. It was only designed that way to save cost of 1 joint and 1 bushing.
5. On the 2009 TL they changed the design to how the bushing should be used. Only as a cushion for the moving lower arm.
In short, I'm asking you to check your TL to see if it also have this problem.. It can easily be seen with a good digital camera (using macro mode) and turning your wheels. I'm especially interested newer ones in the 30k mile range.
Again, really been disappointed in Acura's service. I felt like my honda's got better service even when the car was out of warranty. (I've owned 4 accords before the TL) I'll probably never buy another honda product since I've outgrown Honda and Acura sucks as bad as GM in terms of service. They just smile more as they're telling you to blow.
Thanks for your time.
--Kwun
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...hlight=bushing
I've been really disappointed in Acura's service (specifically Kush Kearny Mesa in San Diego but seems to be trend in other dealers too) since when the car is new. I can talk about all the issues I've had with them if people are interested but this is the latest.
Ok, so here's the deal: My friends and I have 3 TLs all from 2004. We have all owned them since new. All have low 40k miles. ON ALL 3 04 TLs, BOTH the right and left front compliance bushings are ripping. (Pics are shown below of my TL but they all look similar)
We finally had time and took 2 of the cars into the dealer to show that the design is flawed and have 100% failure well within waranty mileage. (although we fell outside of the 4yrs before finding the failure).
The response from Acura is that since its outside the timeframe of the waranty, they out of good-will Acura will repair it for $305. (They're saying normally its $500)
Acura is saying that this is a "wear" item and therefore anything they do outside of waranty is extra.
In addition, they say that they have NEVER seen this problem?!?!?!?!?
My problem with this is:
1. Since this bushing is failing 100% all under 50k miles (to me this is unacceptable since it is well short of the car's life as Honda advertised reliability)
2. Catagorizing this as a wear item is wrong (This is not brakes or tires or oil, and bushings are to be used for cushion not wear). Its supposed to wear out as the car nears the end of life cycle not during their mid life similar to a engine mount bushing. Atleast not fail 100% of the time at this time frame.
3. I live in the coastal area of SoCal. Weather is nothing compared to midwest or east coast. Saying that rubber wears out over time (4yrs old) for a car that sits in a garage in nice 70% humidity, low rain, no snow, no salt, nice paved road area is just stupid.
3. comment about never seeing this problem - This is a problem that will only be noticed once the bushing rips all the way through. Before that a user will never notice it unless they looked for it. I only found it when I had my wheels off and was chaning rims. Also I have had to replace that same bushing on a civic so I inspected it. In addition it seems to be present as long as a person looks for it.
4. The use of a bushing in that manner WILL cause the rubber to fail. It was only designed that way to save cost of 1 joint and 1 bushing.
5. On the 2009 TL they changed the design to how the bushing should be used. Only as a cushion for the moving lower arm.
In short, I'm asking you to check your TL to see if it also have this problem.. It can easily be seen with a good digital camera (using macro mode) and turning your wheels. I'm especially interested newer ones in the 30k mile range.
Again, really been disappointed in Acura's service. I felt like my honda's got better service even when the car was out of warranty. (I've owned 4 accords before the TL) I'll probably never buy another honda product since I've outgrown Honda and Acura sucks as bad as GM in terms of service. They just smile more as they're telling you to blow.
Thanks for your time.
--Kwun
I have the same year car and mine are ripped in the same location as yours.
07-08-2009, 06:49 PM
#207
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bad news, changed all 6 front lower control arm bushings, 2 rear control arms, wheel alignment, no improvement on handling at all, guess what, i thought about the rims n tires causing the handing problem in the first place, i went and changed all 4 wheels to new aspec rim with tires ( i had stock rims n tires), i even change the whole a-spec suspensions, then i saw this thread about bushing crackin issue thought maybe i should give it a shot, but failed, if this car is designed to be this way, i would never consider getting another acura ever again, i had a 2g tl, everything was fine except the tranny issue which was under warranty so i dont really have much complains about it but now this kinda handling....i really dont know what to say, i have a 6 speed by the way, the handling over crappy roads is killin me.....
07-09-2009, 08:44 AM
#208
Wow...I can imagine your frustration. Sorry to hear that and thank you for posting because it might be a waste of time for me and others.
I can say when I drive down this one street in Southwest Ranches...my car SUCKS...it does whatever it wants steering wheel jumping..my belly bouncing (please hold back the LOL's)...I'm guessing it's due to the tight steering and relatively sporty suspension. I'm on Tein SS's btw...luckily I rarely take that road and the other roads are fine...it's only when its' a realllllly bumpy road that it's bad.
Good luck finding it or try trading it I guess. Sometimes that's how I feel about my shimmying issue...makes me want to turn the car in.
I can say when I drive down this one street in Southwest Ranches...my car SUCKS...it does whatever it wants steering wheel jumping..my belly bouncing (please hold back the LOL's)...I'm guessing it's due to the tight steering and relatively sporty suspension. I'm on Tein SS's btw...luckily I rarely take that road and the other roads are fine...it's only when its' a realllllly bumpy road that it's bad.
Good luck finding it or try trading it I guess. Sometimes that's how I feel about my shimmying issue...makes me want to turn the car in.
07-09-2009, 06:52 PM
#210
b if this car is designed to be this way, i would never consider getting another acura ever again, i had a 2g tl, everything was fine except the tranny issue which was under warranty so i dont really have much complains about it but now this kinda handling....i really dont know what to say, i have a 6 speed by the way, the handling over crappy roads is killin me.....
Is it handling that is crappy, or the RIDE? This is a sports sedan you know, not cushy car like the 2g is!
07-09-2009, 08:20 PM
#211
practicing nihilist
His handling issue is very similar to mine. Its a nag @ long hwy runs but around town cruising is fine. Was hoping it was related to my 19s but, GG went back to stock with no luck. Plan on gettin 18s in the future and it will be a good reason to overhaul the front end. Rattles, handling, VSA light...still love the engine, cabin and car overall.
07-10-2009, 08:35 AM
#212
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wow, thats pretty harsh...I think I missed somewhere what the actual handling issue is. Its amazing if you think it is that bad since these cars normally handle great. This bushing thing is piddly diddly compared to that tranny issue you refer to!
Is it handling that is crappy, or the RIDE? This is a sports sedan you know, not cushy car like the 2g is!
Is it handling that is crappy, or the RIDE? This is a sports sedan you know, not cushy car like the 2g is!
07-10-2009, 09:04 AM
#213
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Wow...I can imagine your frustration. Sorry to hear that and thank you for posting because it might be a waste of time for me and others.
I can say when I drive down this one street in Southwest Ranches...my car SUCKS...it does whatever it wants steering wheel jumping..my belly bouncing (please hold back the LOL's)...I'm guessing it's due to the tight steering and relatively sporty suspension. I'm on Tein SS's btw...luckily I rarely take that road and the other roads are fine...it's only when its' a realllllly bumpy road that it's bad.
Good luck finding it or try trading it I guess. Sometimes that's how I feel about my shimmying issue...makes me want to turn the car in.
I can say when I drive down this one street in Southwest Ranches...my car SUCKS...it does whatever it wants steering wheel jumping..my belly bouncing (please hold back the LOL's)...I'm guessing it's due to the tight steering and relatively sporty suspension. I'm on Tein SS's btw...luckily I rarely take that road and the other roads are fine...it's only when its' a realllllly bumpy road that it's bad.
Good luck finding it or try trading it I guess. Sometimes that's how I feel about my shimmying issue...makes me want to turn the car in.
i feel u bro, thats exactly the same problem that i have, car runs perfectly on a perfect road condition, but once it hit a bumpy road, forget it...it just follows the road imperfection and steering wheel turns by itself, i was really thinking about trading it in but until i found something sporty, luxury as tl (especially the look) within tl's price range, i'll jump on it , but until then i guess im stuck with it
07-10-2009, 04:03 PM
#214
Sounds to me like you could use an alignment. The car should be tracking relatively straight. Sometime grabby tires can tend to follow the road back and fourth as well.
Point being, let's try not to blame the car TOO MUCH. Maybe it is not to your liking due to design, but maybe there are other variables at work here as well.
Point being, let's try not to blame the car TOO MUCH. Maybe it is not to your liking due to design, but maybe there are other variables at work here as well.
07-13-2009, 03:16 PM
#215
Cruisin'
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On my TL there is a real severe shimmy at about the same range u are talking about. It turned out to be one tire having a slow pressure leak so when the tire pressure on the 2 sides are too different I think the tranny has problems transfering power evenly. Not sure if you have the same problem though.
If the tire pressures are the same then problem goes away. Those were on 235 40 18s and 30 offset wheels.
Running stock wheels now.
If the tire pressures are the same then problem goes away. Those were on 235 40 18s and 30 offset wheels.
Running stock wheels now.
Does any one of you guys that know about this stuff think this is a plausible cause for my shimmying problem?
Only really noticeable around 2500RPM and it's worse in 2nd gear but always present. I already had the driver side halfaxle changed at the recommendation of the acura shop foreman but it didn't fix it.
Please let me know if I'm barking up the wrong tree here!
Only really noticeable around 2500RPM and it's worse in 2nd gear but always present. I already had the driver side halfaxle changed at the recommendation of the acura shop foreman but it didn't fix it.
Please let me know if I'm barking up the wrong tree here!
07-14-2009, 08:34 PM
#216
Not seeing many people answer this really but are the dealers replacing these without hassle?
Mine are bad and my car does have an issue making a sound when I am about to come to a stop but only does it after the car is warm and been running for a bit running around town. So of course every time I get to dealer and it sits they cant make it do it...
My guess is either this, or maybe an engy mount... But just wondering the hassle getting these replaced.
Mine are bad and my car does have an issue making a sound when I am about to come to a stop but only does it after the car is warm and been running for a bit running around town. So of course every time I get to dealer and it sits they cant make it do it...
My guess is either this, or maybe an engy mount... But just wondering the hassle getting these replaced.
07-14-2009, 10:10 PM
#217
Not seeing many people answer this really but are the dealers replacing these without hassle?
Mine are bad and my car does have an issue making a sound when I am about to come to a stop but only does it after the car is warm and been running for a bit running around town. So of course every time I get to dealer and it sits they cant make it do it...
My guess is either this, or maybe an engy mount... But just wondering the hassle getting these replaced.
Mine are bad and my car does have an issue making a sound when I am about to come to a stop but only does it after the car is warm and been running for a bit running around town. So of course every time I get to dealer and it sits they cant make it do it...
My guess is either this, or maybe an engy mount... But just wondering the hassle getting these replaced.
i had ZERO hassles at 25K under warranty.
07-15-2009, 01:46 PM
#218
On my TL there is a real severe shimmy at about the same range u are talking about. It turned out to be one tire having a slow pressure leak so when the tire pressure on the 2 sides are too different I think the tranny has problems transfering power evenly. Not sure if you have the same problem though.
If the tire pressures are the same then problem goes away. Those were on 235 40 18s and 30 offset wheels.
Running stock wheels now.
If the tire pressures are the same then problem goes away. Those were on 235 40 18s and 30 offset wheels.
Running stock wheels now.
Thank yoU!
07-15-2009, 01:48 PM
#219
God I wish I was in NY. I am really frustrated with this issue and I'm beginning to the think that the techs at Acura are trained to just immediately say there's nothing wrong. If you take time out of your day to check something out...you're not there for no reason. Maybe I need to take the car to a shop that specializes in alignments etc...they should be able to figure out what is causing this.
07-15-2009, 08:31 PM
#221
practicing nihilist
what ever has our car's upset, I really don't think it's in the alignment. I've had my alignment checked three times, and re-balanced at least that many times. I have not replaced my engine mounts fearing that the increased harshness from the IM mounts would just add to the problem if that wasn't it.
I average about 37 mph in between a couple hundred stop lights now so, my wobble isn't bothering me.
I average about 37 mph in between a couple hundred stop lights now so, my wobble isn't bothering me.
07-30-2009, 12:11 PM
#223
Safety Car
lol dude its been so hectic lately i got laid off a few weeks back and everythings become a hustle n grind. going from one place to the next, but the next few weeks i plan on taking time off from application filling.
anyway i got all my materials together except for one and it actually lets the material i wanna use adhere to the stock bushing rubber but i have to find a good dremel tip to grind and make the rubber coarse so the primer sticks to it (it fuses the compound to the already shaped rubber when curing also if u feel the rubber on there already its fairly slippery almost like silicone)
i actually got a very very nice batch of urethane instead of rubber... and im going to try it out....the rubber ive been trying to apply to the bushing doesnt seem like itll do enough to hold it together. so i found a semi "elastic" urethane that gives a nice stretch n rebound....i also built the jigs in the past few hours, so all i have to do is put the bushing in the jig compress it slightly...pour the goo let it dry and have the bushing pressed. we'll see what happens this week coming.
i have a good feeling about it.
anyway i got all my materials together except for one and it actually lets the material i wanna use adhere to the stock bushing rubber but i have to find a good dremel tip to grind and make the rubber coarse so the primer sticks to it (it fuses the compound to the already shaped rubber when curing also if u feel the rubber on there already its fairly slippery almost like silicone)
i actually got a very very nice batch of urethane instead of rubber... and im going to try it out....the rubber ive been trying to apply to the bushing doesnt seem like itll do enough to hold it together. so i found a semi "elastic" urethane that gives a nice stretch n rebound....i also built the jigs in the past few hours, so all i have to do is put the bushing in the jig compress it slightly...pour the goo let it dry and have the bushing pressed. we'll see what happens this week coming.
i have a good feeling about it.
07-30-2009, 12:19 PM
#224
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
damn trip.. I hope something pops up on your radar soon, you have to work your connections in this market.. I have several friends out of work after being laid off for more than 6 mos now.. surviving off meager unemployment benefits.. They all have their master's in elec engrg too..
Keep us updated on the project!
Keep us updated on the project!
08-05-2009, 12:29 PM
#228
Safety Car
nope its 60A....75A seemed unreasonable. i just felt like 75A was too hard for these types of bushings. 60A was good enough plus the primer thats applied the the OEM rubber is insane and makes the bond to the rubber amazing....i drilled a couple of holes through the rubber thats there from the factory to add some strength to the bond. Asd for strength....a friend of mine makes nuts n bolts for the governments aerospace programs.....hes got a puller that tests nuts n bolts. so this morn i put a heavy duty bolt through the middle, situated the bushing in a way to abuse the bushings new qualities and let the sucker rip........i applied about 1000lbs of force/pressure on the bushing and it shifted slightly and rebounded....but never broke... and by shifting i mean up n down like its supposed to in the control arm. it didnt show signs of stress.....my next thing is.... taking a completely stock bushing no mods to it or anything and putting it in the machine to see where it actually blows apart.....then ill have a good idea of where to bring the pressure to......i just didnt have time today to do everything i wanted to. as far as movement goes compared to the oem bushing....i can shift the oem one with my hands about 2-3mm up n down.... i cant even shift the modified one a mm, it just sits in a place.
08-05-2009, 12:32 PM
#229
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
^ awesome work Trip..
08-05-2009, 02:39 PM
#232
Safety Car
thanks majo...
rock... its time consuming and everything is custom made.i have a few diff design ideas but i need to get donor bushings or new ones so time will tell..... im curious about changing a few things as well...we'll see whats up
rock... its time consuming and everything is custom made.i have a few diff design ideas but i need to get donor bushings or new ones so time will tell..... im curious about changing a few things as well...we'll see whats up
08-05-2009, 02:48 PM
#233
Safety Car
i just cannot wait to put them on.....prob saturday unless i take the arms off at my house n bring them directly to the press and that would happen it would prob happen on friday.
08-06-2009, 11:23 PM
#234
8th Gear
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Torn bushings
I'm new to this vehicle, having had my '05 TL for about 1 month. Has 94k miles on it and I have to thank this group for its amazing collective of knowledge in helping me solve the tranny issues with the 3x3 flush and replacement of the 3 & 4 gear pressure switches. Just did them this morning and amazing difference! Highly recommend as preventive maint. Also noticed the VERY TORN bushing on the driver's side when doing the pressure switches and am waiting with bated breath for the results of Tripn's ingenuity. I'm just coming off an Infiniti I30 which was an ok car to me, and do have some concerns about the TL's "darty" handling on rough or uneven roads. It sounds like the collective wisdom here is that the bushings aren't directly responsible for that, but my concern is whether this is a safety issue, as mine are severely torn. I wouldn't mind doing them myself with the S type OEM replacements pressed in, but the ball joints scare me. Any of you tackle this yourself, and if so, what level of difficulty out of a 5 scale for a diy'er with 5 being full pro shop experience necessary? Thx for any and all guidance.
08-07-2009, 06:58 AM
#235
Safety Car
if u dont position the ball joint remover on center, you will bend the threads but thats about as hard as it gets, removing the arm isn that hard otherwise except for unscrewing everything and pressing is all about positioning the bushing correctly so make sure u mark the old ones before you remove em.
08-07-2009, 11:02 AM
#236
Answer me this, are my bushings bad?
Driver side Front:
http://www.electnilka.com/images/IMG_0796b.jpg
Passenger Side Front:
http://www.electnilka.com/images/IMG_0798b.jpg
I want to make sure I'm seeing the right thing.
Am I correct to assume that I need to change them both?
Thanks.
Driver side Front:
http://www.electnilka.com/images/IMG_0796b.jpg
Passenger Side Front:
http://www.electnilka.com/images/IMG_0798b.jpg
I want to make sure I'm seeing the right thing.
Am I correct to assume that I need to change them both?
Thanks.
08-08-2009, 09:02 AM
#237
Safety Car
yup torn. both gotta get changed i think acura should charge like 150 or 200 to do this service, instead of replacing the arms.... it makes sense and its less time consuming for the customer.
08-08-2009, 04:45 PM
#238
Team Owner
08-10-2009, 09:55 AM
#239
PCM full of water, yummy
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Mine are torn too, I spoke with the master tech working on my car (ecu full of water) and he stated almost every Acura/Honda he sees is like that. I'm pretty much screwed, since I'm lowered on Teins... I don't think they'll warranty them, do you?
Oh yeah, I get a slight shimmy in the steering wheel above 70...
Oh yeah, I get a slight shimmy in the steering wheel above 70...
08-12-2009, 03:36 PM
#240
Try, cant hurt to ask.
My dealer is replacing my control arms because of this.
They just told me their is a TSB about it so it seems to be a known problem.
Thing is I dropped my car off yesterday and didnt get to physically show anyone the issue so telling them over the phone they said they seen nothing wrong.
Sent them some pics from here and "oh yea we see now" and thats when they told me their is a tsb about the problem.
I say complain and try.
The more people that complain and bring this up maybe they will issue a recall so others dont have problem, or better yet maybe make a better design or update to it for us!
My dealer is replacing my control arms because of this.
They just told me their is a TSB about it so it seems to be a known problem.
Thing is I dropped my car off yesterday and didnt get to physically show anyone the issue so telling them over the phone they said they seen nothing wrong.
Sent them some pics from here and "oh yea we see now" and thats when they told me their is a tsb about the problem.
I say complain and try.
The more people that complain and bring this up maybe they will issue a recall so others dont have problem, or better yet maybe make a better design or update to it for us!