'04 to '08 front lower control arm bushing failure - please read and look
06-02-2009, 06:18 PM
#41
Team Owner
I'm not sure if poly is a good idea for that bushing. Possible increase in roadnoise and vibrations. Not sure if it would cause potential binding. A harder rubber if there is any available might not be a bad idea.
06-03-2009, 07:46 AM
#42
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I beg to differ. I come from the world of Maximas whose control arms utilize bushings similar to the TL. The poly bushings (in the control arm) don't stiffen up the ride or add any road vibrations at all. Rather, they make the ride feel more controlled. Instead of the pin sloshing around in rubber, the poly directs it to spin or move in the correct manner.
Though I can attest that poly in other areas - such as motor mounts - definitely would increase vibrations in the cabin, as those bushings are the link between the motor and the subframe. Rubber, in this case, helps to subdue/minimize the vibrations coming from the engine whereas poly simply transfers the vibration to the rest of the car, albeit only slightly.
Though I can attest that poly in other areas - such as motor mounts - definitely would increase vibrations in the cabin, as those bushings are the link between the motor and the subframe. Rubber, in this case, helps to subdue/minimize the vibrations coming from the engine whereas poly simply transfers the vibration to the rest of the car, albeit only slightly.
06-03-2009, 11:26 AM
#47
Safety Car
Well I ordered the Type s bushings and pressed them in....feels a lot nicer i was actually thinking of filling the oem ones i took out with 75A or even 60A and giving it a super stiff bushing, BUT! when i sat down and started thinking clearly and thought about how i pressed the new ones in....they have a certain position acura has them placed in for movement of the control arm. if they arent pressed in correctly as soon as the car is put down they will snap or crack. im going to be ordering the poly to fill the oem parts next week and try it out to see if its bad or not
06-03-2009, 12:33 PM
#49
practicing nihilist
Well I ordered the Type s bushings and pressed them in....feels a lot nicer i was actually thinking of filling the oem ones i took out with 75A or even 60A and giving it a super stiff bushing, BUT! when i sat down and started thinking clearly and thought about how i pressed the new ones in....they have a certain position acura has them placed in for movement of the control arm. if they arent pressed in correctly as soon as the car is put down they will snap or crack. im going to be ordering the poly to fill the oem parts next week and try it out to see if its bad or not
06-03-2009, 12:52 PM
#50
Safety Car
yes diff part #'s im not expecting them to last i just wanted to see if theres a difference in stiffness....and there is but im sure itll feel the same after they crack
06-03-2009, 01:16 PM
#52
Safety Car
whatta u mean?? if i make my own they wont need alignment...they will just go on n bolt down....then the whole bushing takes the beating of the control arm.... but again it could be done the way its done for a reason....I dont like the way honda pours the material in... only 2 points make contact with the wall the rest of the bushing has holes in it. it doesnt make sense
06-03-2009, 04:37 PM
#53
Racer
Just had my origional lower control arm bushings (5 years old with 78K miles) checked today. I even went out in the shop and checked them and they are fine. No tears, cracking, or rot of any kind.
06-03-2009, 07:33 PM
#54
practicing nihilist
Quick Poll
1) What OEM tires did your TL come with?
2) Suspension/running gear mods and how many miles logged with them?
3) Briefly describe your driving style
A1) Michelins
A2) Progress RSB on for about 20K. Koni's/H&R Sport/19x8 wheels for about 9K.
A3) I will take on/off ramps near the limit when given the opportunity. Never accelerate hard through slow speed turns, like turning on to a street from a stop. Rarely roll the tires from a standing start. Don't auto cross or just flog it in empty parking lots.
In light of the last poster I think we need to start narrowing down the big trends. Other than that, all that could be done is tracking down batch numbers and stuff, which is way above my paygrade. I drive my car within it's prescribed limits and don't want this to turn into a regional manager telling me it's because of my wheels and shocks or the way I drive.
2) Suspension/running gear mods and how many miles logged with them?
3) Briefly describe your driving style
A1) Michelins
A2) Progress RSB on for about 20K. Koni's/H&R Sport/19x8 wheels for about 9K.
A3) I will take on/off ramps near the limit when given the opportunity. Never accelerate hard through slow speed turns, like turning on to a street from a stop. Rarely roll the tires from a standing start. Don't auto cross or just flog it in empty parking lots.
In light of the last poster I think we need to start narrowing down the big trends. Other than that, all that could be done is tracking down batch numbers and stuff, which is way above my paygrade. I drive my car within it's prescribed limits and don't want this to turn into a regional manager telling me it's because of my wheels and shocks or the way I drive.
06-03-2009, 10:37 PM
#56
Team Owner
2) Suspension was all stock at the time of breakage.
3) Driving style is like a 90 yr old man 90% of the time but when I rag on it, it's balls to the wall tail out driving.
06-04-2009, 12:09 AM
#57
I think he meant driving style in the TL, not the GN, in that last response. Lol
Anyway, I'm wondering if this is why I feel that shimmy when accelerating. I didn't own the car long enough before lowering it to remember if it happened once lowered, but that's when I noticed it. I had the driver side axle replaced already and it's still there. Not too bad, but kind of annoying. I did get used to it though. If mine are torn, that would make sense as to why they shimmy because that would give it the horizontal "play" it needs to make the car wiggle.
Great thread!
Anyway, I'm wondering if this is why I feel that shimmy when accelerating. I didn't own the car long enough before lowering it to remember if it happened once lowered, but that's when I noticed it. I had the driver side axle replaced already and it's still there. Not too bad, but kind of annoying. I did get used to it though. If mine are torn, that would make sense as to why they shimmy because that would give it the horizontal "play" it needs to make the car wiggle.
Great thread!
06-04-2009, 12:27 AM
#58
Team Owner
I beg to differ. I come from the world of Maximas whose control arms utilize bushings similar to the TL. The poly bushings (in the control arm) don't stiffen up the ride or add any road vibrations at all. Rather, they make the ride feel more controlled. Instead of the pin sloshing around in rubber, the poly directs it to spin or move in the correct manner.
Though I can attest that poly in other areas - such as motor mounts - definitely would increase vibrations in the cabin, as those bushings are the link between the motor and the subframe. Rubber, in this case, helps to subdue/minimize the vibrations coming from the engine whereas poly simply transfers the vibration to the rest of the car, albeit only slightly.
Though I can attest that poly in other areas - such as motor mounts - definitely would increase vibrations in the cabin, as those bushings are the link between the motor and the subframe. Rubber, in this case, helps to subdue/minimize the vibrations coming from the engine whereas poly simply transfers the vibration to the rest of the car, albeit only slightly.
I went against warnings in my other car not to use poly in all the rear end bushings. This is a car I'm super comfortable sliding sideways. If I needed to do a lane change going down the freeway at 75mph and there was a slight curve I would use the throttle to slide it over a lane or two. I would go sideways around the entire freeway onramp and enter the freeway sideways. I think I did more drifting in that car than going straight. Never did I lose it, it was very controllable even at triple digit speeds.
Then came the poly in the rear control arm bushings. I was getting on the throttle around 65mph around a turn, hit a bump and the car spun around faster than I knew was possible. I went back and hit the bump again this time without throttle and same thing, I was able to catch it but it got waaaay too sideways for how hard I was cornering. The suspension was going into full bind over bumps which would be like having solid bars instead of springs in the rear.
Pulled the poly out and put some harder rubber (1LE) bushings from a Trans-am and the problem was solved.
Sorry for the rambling but I'm terrified of suspension bind.
06-04-2009, 08:46 AM
#59
Safety Car
^ I agree.... I actually found some insane silcone rubber material thats used in these sorts of applications from dow corning. and another company that deals with bushings n rubber etc. anyway I emailed them and they said that they can send me a couple of quarts of material for trial n error at a discounted price. itll start at the hardness of the manufacturer and get harder from there the rubber has "special" metal binding properties and pretty much has to be used in this sort of application. I addressed the issue with the guys on the and they seemed interested in helping out....hopefully it comes together soon and they send that goo over soon.
06-04-2009, 10:23 AM
#60
Team Owner
I think he meant driving style in the TL, not the GN, in that last response. Lol
Anyway, I'm wondering if this is why I feel that shimmy when accelerating. I didn't own the car long enough before lowering it to remember if it happened once lowered, but that's when I noticed it. I had the driver side axle replaced already and it's still there. Not too bad, but kind of annoying. I did get used to it though. If mine are torn, that would make sense as to why they shimmy because that would give it the horizontal "play" it needs to make the car wiggle.
Great thread!
Anyway, I'm wondering if this is why I feel that shimmy when accelerating. I didn't own the car long enough before lowering it to remember if it happened once lowered, but that's when I noticed it. I had the driver side axle replaced already and it's still there. Not too bad, but kind of annoying. I did get used to it though. If mine are torn, that would make sense as to why they shimmy because that would give it the horizontal "play" it needs to make the car wiggle.
Great thread!
LOL. My TL has been sideways more than any FWD car should. Not the continuous RWD style fun but enough to require quite a bit of steering correction.
06-04-2009, 11:58 AM
#61
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DMZ, it'd be good to see if they are torn again. Has anyone confirmed that the new bushings installed by Acura are a new design? Or is it like djfrestyl said, "crap for crap"?? I noticed mine a while back but haven't had any problems that I can atribute to that. As for poly, I don't think it would flex downward enough without it being a much thinner material. The control arm area would need to be much larger to allow a larger amount of poly material. Then, the poly might flex enough, but that is a whole design change. It just seems like a crap design. The bushing is mounted perpendicular to the major motion of the suspension. Seems like it should be similar to the rear bushing. Oh well, thats why they get paid the big bucks.
06-04-2009, 12:32 PM
#62
Safety Car
NE same junk i just pressed the type s ones in and the rubber feels harder but not better. poly wouldnt give a good flex because its a harder material and the bushing/control arm is made to flex only up n down but excessive up or down will tear the bushings apart, I wanted to advance the design a lil and add more rubber to it and fill it up all around so that at least its got flex in all directions without stress being put on 2 little rubber parts connected to the metal
06-10-2009, 02:14 PM
#66
practicing nihilist
sumbich
well, my car went back in for some parts on hold from last week.
The dealership will not replace my lower control arm bushings. The service guy, with similar cracks in his Type-S, is going to give me a corporate contact to pursue. The tech tried disarming the situation by stating he's had the same stress cracks on all of his cars, mostly Acura's, and it doesn't affect handling what-so-ever. I gave him a look of dissapointment and asked him to explain my high speed vibration that comes and goes. "Hmm, Acura's rarely have handling issues". Right...mine's the first.
So who knows the most effective way to get results on these issues that must go beyond local dealers?
BTW, I was also told by this rep that they don't sell/replace just the lower bushings. Supposedly this was disastrous on 2G's and now they only replace the entire control arm. This is crap.
The dealership will not replace my lower control arm bushings. The service guy, with similar cracks in his Type-S, is going to give me a corporate contact to pursue. The tech tried disarming the situation by stating he's had the same stress cracks on all of his cars, mostly Acura's, and it doesn't affect handling what-so-ever. I gave him a look of dissapointment and asked him to explain my high speed vibration that comes and goes. "Hmm, Acura's rarely have handling issues". Right...mine's the first.
So who knows the most effective way to get results on these issues that must go beyond local dealers?
BTW, I was also told by this rep that they don't sell/replace just the lower bushings. Supposedly this was disastrous on 2G's and now they only replace the entire control arm. This is crap.
06-10-2009, 02:34 PM
#67
Safety Car
yes thats exactly what they do.... they say pressing is no good...but i think they say that because the part has to go back and get examined n tested by honda so theyd rather have the whole part. i just ordered the rubber compounds ill be using to prototype some bushings hopefully by next week i get this project rolling
06-11-2009, 07:45 AM
#69
My car is at the dealership right now for this problem. They found three bad bushings. I have 67,000 miles on my car with the Acura Care extended warranty. They are covering it under the warranty except for the labor for one of the bushings. Doesn't make much sense but it's better than nothing.
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06-11-2009, 07:54 AM
#70
practicing nihilist
Good to know. I may need to use that as my case goes up the chain. I will have a mini battle on my hands proving its not because of the wheels and suspension mods. Do you have wheel/suspension mods?
06-11-2009, 09:09 AM
#72
Safety Car
only when i really press into a turn, the car feels off..... the stabilizer bar compensates and takes the beating for those bushings being shot.....if you look at the bushings on the bar they turn to shit too. plus the vibration isnt absorbed correctly and you hear the suspension more than you're supposed to.
06-11-2009, 10:13 AM
#73
practicing nihilist
My problem is different. It's a high frequency vibration in the steering wheel that develops usually above 60 mph. At times when it's not present, it seams like bumps in the road or hard acceleration can 'upset' it, and then it comes back.
alignment and balance has been checked 3 times by a very good shop I use. They tell me I need camber kits to get the camber completely to spec, but I know that's not the issue.
alignment and balance has been checked 3 times by a very good shop I use. They tell me I need camber kits to get the camber completely to spec, but I know that's not the issue.
06-11-2009, 10:22 AM
#74
Safety Car
have u checked for bends in the rim (its not done by checking while balancing )?? broken motor/tranny mounts? bad bearing? i couldnt imagine the control arms making it shake like that. usually when u get shaking over 60 its a rim balance issue or mechanical if its really bad
06-11-2009, 10:31 AM
#75
Safety Car
my idea
in the 2nd part i wanna fill the rest of the bushing in and raise the rubber up, but not to the top of the sleeve because the top has contact points on the subframe. it has also has to have some kind of play. I wouldnt go over the OEM rubber Id take it all out and fill it in the same position with a new compoud.
in the 2nd part i wanna fill the rest of the bushing in and raise the rubber up, but not to the top of the sleeve because the top has contact points on the subframe. it has also has to have some kind of play. I wouldnt go over the OEM rubber Id take it all out and fill it in the same position with a new compoud.
06-11-2009, 11:02 AM
#77
Safety Car
yea but bro..... these break literally as soon as the car is set on the ground off of the lift... they show crack and wear pretty bad... a few good bumps n they're destroyed....it reallllllyyy bothers me when i lift the car up and i see it and the part's brand new. its not just on mine ive noticed it on 99% of the TLs ive looked at
06-11-2009, 12:47 PM
#78
practicing nihilist
yeah, I did ramp a wheel on a curb but it was doing the exact same thing on the stock wheels and tires. Supposedly the dealer checked the motor mounts but the IM's are on my long term 'to do' list.
Tech gave me a corporate number. He said that he would love to change them for me but needs higher authority to do so. Shady.
Tech gave me a corporate number. He said that he would love to change them for me but needs higher authority to do so. Shady.
06-11-2009, 04:52 PM
#79
The OP said the car was a 2004...sorry if I missed some details as I did not read the whole thread. Am I way off?
I had an M3 with 60k on it that had all kinda bushings go bad. Maybe it chocks up to some sort of engineering mishap or design flaw, but if the bushing lasts more than 3-4 years I'd say it is an unfortunate unanticipated expense item. Honda owners just aren't used to that sort of thing, but it is not out of this world or anything.
edit...i see a newer type-s had a similar issue eh? Well, I dunno, compared to the transmission debacle that 2g owners went through this really ain't that bad.
I had an M3 with 60k on it that had all kinda bushings go bad. Maybe it chocks up to some sort of engineering mishap or design flaw, but if the bushing lasts more than 3-4 years I'd say it is an unfortunate unanticipated expense item. Honda owners just aren't used to that sort of thing, but it is not out of this world or anything.
edit...i see a newer type-s had a similar issue eh? Well, I dunno, compared to the transmission debacle that 2g owners went through this really ain't that bad.
06-11-2009, 08:45 PM
#80
practicing nihilist
the thing you don't want to hear is "oh, those crack are common". By this point, they could have just designed stress points in the damn things.
Mine are shot at 40K. Tech at my dealer's are bad at 20's. Couple others are well under 50K. I think its time for Acura/Honda to learn the hard way and make better bushings. Someone as anal as I am just can't comprehend something failing on purpose.
Mine are shot at 40K. Tech at my dealer's are bad at 20's. Couple others are well under 50K. I think its time for Acura/Honda to learn the hard way and make better bushings. Someone as anal as I am just can't comprehend something failing on purpose.
