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Further testing with the 2007-2011 Acura RDX platform, K23A1 (DYNO)
I posted this over on Honda-Tech and K20A, so I figured I should probably share this here.
"Good morning, everyone!
I'm just swinging in to share some results we had over the weekend with finally being able to spend a bunch of time with the turbocharged K23A1 platform in the 2007-2011 Acura RDX on the dyno. This car doesn't really get a lot of love, despite being the only current turbocharged Honda available in the USA, and the potential that it holds for a fun driver.
We removed the propeller shaft that drives the rear wheels in order to test on our in-house DynaPack Evolution 3000 2WD dyno in front-wheel drive configuration.
This particular example was tested with only one of our custom intake arms (3" diameter, like many of the off-shelf aftermarket pieces, nothing special at all. This also keeps MAF scaling close to stock.); beyond the intake arm, the car is completely stock. We performed the tuning with a Hondata FlashPro unit.
The car has been running around on a simple street tune for a while, but we wanted to compare the engine in stages, so for initial testing yesterday we returned the ECU to stock. With the ECU on the OEM calibration, the tests produced a best of 189whp / 206wtq, with boost tapering to 8psi at redline. The stock power rating is 240hp / 260tq at the engine, giving us roughly a 20-22% drivetrain loss in FWD configuration on our machine.
Next, the "street tune" file was loaded. The street tune was also done by me using OEM-like timing table curves, and OEM-style VTC tables; we didn't want to get too crazy on the street without knowing how much to trust or distrust the OEM knock sensor sensitivity, so the goal was to minimize knock and up boost, essentially. With this calibration loaded, the results were 218whp / 241wtq, with boost fairly steady at 14psi falling to 13psi.
At this point, we took the liberty of completely reshaping the WOT Lambda Adjustment, ignition timing, and VTC target tables, and also making adjustments to the knock ignition limit/retard tables. Knock sensitivity was left alone, as we found it to be fairly accurate. From Honda (as well as Hondata), cam advance is very limited, with the majority of the calibration never advancing past 0deg (in boost, no cam advance is used). After a few pulls dialing in the new shapes of these tables, we found a BUNCH more torque down low, and fair gains everywhere else. With these adjustments, the results were 255whp / 317wtq, with peak boost of 16psi early on, with boost falling to 13psi up top.
Dotted red = Stock ECU tune
Solid red = Street tune
Solid pink = Final dyno tune
Here's a comparison of stock ECU calibration versus the final tuned version.
I would like to note that all tests were performed within 1.5 hours total of each other, with IAT's monitored closely to keep them consistent in the 120-130deg range. These cars are very sensitive to heat soak with the stock top-mount intercooler when dyno testing. Injector duty cycle was also very high; 97% with an 11.6AFR fuel mixture. Knock count was reduced to "0", also. With both the OEM Honda calibration, and the Hondata reflash, ignition timing is through the roof; they are constantly relying on the knock sensor to pull a bunch of ignition timing. By rewriting the ignition tables completely, we have eliminated the over-retard required. Target boost was also turned up as high as the engine allowed; without removing exhaust restriction, no more boost can be made. Because of this, boost does waver a little, making the 'waves' in the torque curve.
Wow that is really impressive, thanks for sharing. It's great to see another tuner wrapping his hands around this platform. +110wtq out of a mostly stock configuration is ridiculous, granted it's measured without the car being in AWD.
The boost spikes are interesting; is that felt in the driveability at all? Like are you feeling power surges?
For those who are already running FlashPro, would you be willing to share/sell a similar but a bit more conservative 93 octane tune from your recent dyno session? Results sound very impressive and could be an alternative to the base "Hondata" tune.
Again awesome work and much gratitude for further developing this platform!
Also wonder if some of the boost pressure swings are due to the factory bypass valve leaking a bit. Have read many posts from WRX and Mazdaspeed3 forums where the same factory BPV is known to bleed boost.
For those who are already running FlashPro, would you be willing to share/sell a similar but a bit more conservative 93 octane tune from your recent dyno session? Results sound very impressive and could be an alternative to the base "Hondata" tune.
Again awesome work and much gratitude for further developing this platform!
Absolutely. I have already sold a few of these files, and do include a remote tuning package for these to perfect the calibration for your specific car.
If you're interested, shoot me an email at "drobimw@gmail.com".
As far as the boost waver, it's not exactly noticeable when driving the car. It wouldn't surprise me if the stock bypass valve is the cause too, but we'll be deleting the cats on this car very shortly to find out if it's an exhaust restriction problem.
But, look at the reason they said the did it in 2nd. Was time not an issue that day?
The tests were performed in third gear on the DynaPack.
On the DynaPack, I have the ability to define the length of time the pull takes. On average, I limit runs to 7-10 seconds.
The Mustang dyno does not give me this option, and a third gear pull on that machine took longer than actually accelerating through 3rd gear on the street by a long-shot. I opted to tune the car this time around on the DynaPack because it feels a ton more stable on this machine, and is much quieter, allowing me to hear the engine better.
I can literally test in 1st gear or 5th gear on the DynaPack and the numbers will be exactly the same as long as any per-gear trims aren't present.
I'm not sure why there is hostility in the tones here. I am literally trying to help you guys here. I'm an open book with this stuff. Ask me whatever you want about the tune or my tuning tools.
It's cool, numbers aren't all that and they didn't do anything as far as Hondata goes (EMS/KPRO). So, it's good to say you got a shop to rep the RDX. Now, what will that do for us in the future? Or was these PR for them to sell some tunes.... The platform has been around from late '06-to-now. What's up on carbon fiber parts, camber kit, electrical, etc.....
Actually numbers are all that. Look at the gains from stock to tuned. How does that not speak for itself? Also another number that's cool is 14.2@96mph on this setup. Backed up by a 14.40@95.6mph on a 20degree hotter day with higher DA.
It's cool, numbers aren't all that and they didn't do anything as far as Hondata goes (EMS/KPRO). So, it's good to say you got a shop to rep the RDX. Now, what will that do for us in the future? Or was these PR for them to sell some tunes.... The platform has been around from late '06-to-now. What's up on carbon fiber parts, camber kit, electrical, etc.....
Actually numbers are all that. Look at the gains from stock to tuned. How does that not speak for itself? Also another number that's cool is 14.2@96mph on this setup. Backed up by a 14.40@95.6mph on a 20degree hotter day with higher DA.
Guys were running close to that at the track last year, with less PR..
I'm not sure why there is hostility in the tones here. I am literally trying to help you guys here. I'm an open book with this stuff. Ask me whatever you want about the tune or my tuning tools.
You'll have hostility with people who can't see the big picture and only focus on being the first to do something or looking for exclusivity.
Anyway, regardless if folks have made this much power/trq in the past, the information presented has been spotty/lacking information at times. The method in which you gave history of the chassis, listed the modifications, ambient conditions, drivetrain layout, testing equipment/methods, and represented the results of each successive test is what I was referring to as additional "development." Also, your candid nature of how it was all presented and your willingness to respond in more than disconnected sentence fragments is a nice change of pace for some threads on here.
At the end of the day, it's nice to have another avenue for tuning especially as others tuners get bogged down with work being the only one for a specific chassis.
You'll have hostility with people who can't see the big picture and only focus on being the first to do something or looking for exclusivity
And it was R&D, not parts just for KenB. the suspension should be available soon. Now, it's a shame that you think I'm being selfish when I had my car on Jack stands for 9 months so we can have better suspension.....
I'm not arguing over the merits of the development you've personally achieved Ken, and certainly give you credit for time/money you've personally put into the chassis. I was more calling out the overall nature of build threads on the various boards I participate in of people just installing parts that don't seem to add to the development or are out of reach/scope for most people.
In the end, don't want to clutter this thread and hope it inspires other tuners/Hondata to support the RDX even more than the recent developments in the past year or so.
A number is just a number when there is nothing to reference it to, but in getting the baseline and tuned numbers in a (mostly) controlled environment helps to show what really can be unlocked with software alone. I personally thought torque and hp gains like that wouldn't happen without a downpipe and injectors. Although, I'm curious what can be done for 91 octane.
At the same time the 255 on that dyno might still only be worth 220 on another - having track times as an additional reference will help confirm just how much overall power is there. But still, the gains shown here are plain as day and very encouraging.
remember when i went from 220 to 265 on a magic dyno with no real change in boost pressure...?... it was bullshit. number but i did gain power. and the dyno proved that there was a gain. my track times can be used to figure out what kind of power im making.
A number is just a number when there is nothing to reference it to, but in getting the baseline and tuned numbers in a (mostly) controlled environment helps to show what really can be unlocked with software alone. I personally thought torque and hp gains like that wouldn't happen without a downpipe and injectors. Although, I'm curious what can be done for 91 octane.
At the same time the 255 on that dyno might still only be worth 220 on another - having track times as an additional reference will help confirm just how much overall power is there. But still, the gains shown here are plain as day and very encouraging.
Yeah the injectors are maxed out as it sits. Any other mods would need bigger injectors. Next week I have a set of ID1000's going in. It will be tuned on E85 the same day. Just.don't have the time right now to make a downpipe. Same day testing of 93oct to e85.
Actually I'm very curious to see what can be pulled out with E-85 conversion, but leaving the downpipe in there. I'm thinking you should be able to get at least another 20 hp with more aggressive timing, but that's assuming that the turbo was at its limit. If not, maybe even more. And with the size of the fuel tank in these cars, E-85 is not that harsh of a penalty.
in '08, nearly 7 years later and we have this. High hopes for you guys in PA. Best of luck with her, Wrench maybe you should swing over there and get crazy since you drive your RDX and not your wife, my wife used to drive ours; but it's all in my hands now. Maybe she should have kept driving it, less money I would have put into it..... Oh well, Good luck fellas.
Quick question but hopefully not a dumb one: Was your tune loaded onto slowteg's RDX with a Flashpro? Or are you flashing it through another method?
I ask because one of the reasons why I haven't seriously considered a tune for this car is that I seem to have read that with the 2012 RDX you have to purchase the Flashpro in order to tune it (ie you can't have it flashed without the tool). That puts the total tune cost in the $1,xxx range, which is basically what it costs for a pulley / tune on my Jag. And if I am spending that money for a tune it's going to be on that car.
If your option was cheaper and didn't require a hardware purchase I would seriously consider it. Especially since my wife said she wouldn't be opposed to getting our RDX tuned and it's her car :P
in '08, nearly 7 years later and we have this. High hopes for you guys in PA. Best of luck with her, Wrench maybe you should swing over there and get crazy since you drive your RDX and not your wife, my wife used to drive ours; but it's all in my hands now. Maybe she should have kept driving it, less money I would have put into it..... Oh well, Good luck fellas.
You have a very narrow train of thought, and you certainly do not understand what a dyno is used for.
This thread was not to say "Hey, look at this peak dyno number, bro"; it was to show a solid, same-day/same-session comparison between the stock calibration, the street tune, and the full dyno tune on a damn-near completely stock K23A. The dyno is strictly a tuning tool, to compare gains and losses, comparable ONLY to the same exact machine (not the same KIND of machine).
The photo/link you posted above is from another source, using another machine. As you can see, the baseline on that machine was a fair amount higher than my machine's baseline for this platform. As previously mentioned, that car also has more modifications than this one. The point of sharing this information was to show you what kind of gains can be had on a next-to-stock vehicle, and regardless of what is said about the dyno numbers, track times are irrefutable.
Going from a 15.2 @ 89mph to a 14.20 @ 96mph is what matters.
Quick question but hopefully not a dumb one: Was your tune loaded onto slowteg's RDX with a Flashpro? Or are you flashing it through another method?
I ask because one of the reasons why I haven't seriously considered a tune for this car is that I seem to have read that with the 2012 RDX you have to purchase the Flashpro in order to tune it (ie you can't have it flashed without the tool). That puts the total tune cost in the $1,xxx range, which is basically what it costs for a pulley / tune on my Jag. And if I am spending that money for a tune it's going to be on that car.
If your option was cheaper and didn't require a hardware purchase I would seriously consider it. Especially since my wife said she wouldn't be opposed to getting our RDX tuned and it's her car :P
This was using the Hondata FlashPro unit.
We actually now have an alternate flash method available, but it would require you to come to my facility.
08-29-2015, 07:11 AM
