V8/rwd TL
10-20-2013, 04:50 PM
#41
Team Owner
Hopefully that is not a stock 5.0. I used to race against those every weekend. Literally hundreds of them. The stock block tends to crack down the valley area in the 500hp area. There are some pushing more for a while but it doesn't last. Nothing wrong with that, mine is not supposed to be good for the hp it's making on almost stock internals but I know one day I'm going to run over the crank or launch a head.
It's a cool project but why why why why do a blow through carbureted setup? It can make big power but that setup is just not street friendly and it's much more likely to destroy the engine in boost. I've spent 3 days straight with one of the legendary tuners on the dyno trying to get the part throttle behavior acceptable on a turbo 347 that made a bit over 1200whp. The less hp and the narrower the range of airflow the carb sees the easier it is to tune but the wider range of airflow can make it a nightmare.
Honestly, turbos and carburetors do not mix on street cars and it's less safe for the engine. Maybe he will keep it around 500hp and it will be great. I look at this as a guy pioneering a way to do a RWD V8 conversion and the problems you will encounter and the mods needed. Personally I would turn the J series 90 degrees and turbo it. You keep the stock wiring. The block and crank are rock solid I'm going to guess past 800hp. With pistons and rods and the right prep work along with the incredible flow of the stock heads, just a turbo will make all the power you could ever want.
I wish him luck with the build. Carbureted or not it's pretty cool.
It's a cool project but why why why why do a blow through carbureted setup? It can make big power but that setup is just not street friendly and it's much more likely to destroy the engine in boost. I've spent 3 days straight with one of the legendary tuners on the dyno trying to get the part throttle behavior acceptable on a turbo 347 that made a bit over 1200whp. The less hp and the narrower the range of airflow the carb sees the easier it is to tune but the wider range of airflow can make it a nightmare.
Honestly, turbos and carburetors do not mix on street cars and it's less safe for the engine. Maybe he will keep it around 500hp and it will be great. I look at this as a guy pioneering a way to do a RWD V8 conversion and the problems you will encounter and the mods needed. Personally I would turn the J series 90 degrees and turbo it. You keep the stock wiring. The block and crank are rock solid I'm going to guess past 800hp. With pistons and rods and the right prep work along with the incredible flow of the stock heads, just a turbo will make all the power you could ever want.
I wish him luck with the build. Carbureted or not it's pretty cool.
10-20-2013, 10:56 PM
#42
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
Why a chevy motor? The ford 302 small block is a dead reliable motor and
you can extract good HP numbers. I guess with just the turbo set up he
could get 450 HP. Now with heads, cam and intake 550HP. Now a stock
T5 trans wont hold up to long. If he goes with six speed or a built AOD
they both can handle 500+ HP. But I'm just talking here. There will be
extensive fab work here too. But this could be a great project build.
you can extract good HP numbers. I guess with just the turbo set up he
could get 450 HP. Now with heads, cam and intake 550HP. Now a stock
T5 trans wont hold up to long. If he goes with six speed or a built AOD
they both can handle 500+ HP. But I'm just talking here. There will be
extensive fab work here too. But this could be a great project build.
10-21-2013, 09:39 AM
#43
Why a chevy motor? The ford 302 small block is a dead reliable motor and
you can extract good HP numbers. I guess with just the turbo set up he
could get 450 HP. Now with heads, cam and intake 550HP. Now a stock
T5 trans wont hold up to long. If he goes with six speed or a built AOD
they both can handle 500+ HP. But I'm just talking here. There will be
extensive fab work here too. But this could be a great project build.
you can extract good HP numbers. I guess with just the turbo set up he
could get 450 HP. Now with heads, cam and intake 550HP. Now a stock
T5 trans wont hold up to long. If he goes with six speed or a built AOD
they both can handle 500+ HP. But I'm just talking here. There will be
extensive fab work here too. But this could be a great project build.
Its just alot easier and much CHEAPER to do it with a Chevy motor. I have a buddy that have pulled LS 4.8L out of vehicles with 150k+ miles and have not had to do a single thing to it and now make over 600hp with a turbo kit. Not bad for a $200 motor
10-22-2013, 12:33 AM
#45
Suzuka Master
600 HP Is nothing for that displacement under boost
10-22-2013, 08:14 AM
#47
Senior Moderator
Why a chevy motor? The ford 302 small block is a dead reliable motor and
you can extract good HP numbers. I guess with just the turbo set up he
could get 450 HP. Now with heads, cam and intake 550HP. Now a stock
T5 trans wont hold up to long. If he goes with six speed or a built AOD
they both can handle 500+ HP. But I'm just talking here. There will be
extensive fab work here too. But this could be a great project build.
you can extract good HP numbers. I guess with just the turbo set up he
could get 450 HP. Now with heads, cam and intake 550HP. Now a stock
T5 trans wont hold up to long. If he goes with six speed or a built AOD
they both can handle 500+ HP. But I'm just talking here. There will be
extensive fab work here too. But this could be a great project build.
10-22-2013, 11:12 AM
#48
Suzuka Master
Think i have seen a twin turbo 4.8 at 1200 HP
10-22-2013, 11:26 AM
#49
Senior Moderator
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justnspace (10-22-2013)
10-22-2013, 12:13 PM
#50
Team Owner
The stock J series has the airflow to make 700whp with only a turbo but unfortunately not the rods or pistons to do so, at least not for more than a couple dyno pulls.
This is one reason I don't know why some of the turbo J guys put money into the heads and valvetrain and all of that stuff. The airflow is there, just add boost and a bottom end that will handle the power. If you want the same gains of ported heads, turn the boost up 1lb lol.
This is one reason I don't know why some of the turbo J guys put money into the heads and valvetrain and all of that stuff. The airflow is there, just add boost and a bottom end that will handle the power. If you want the same gains of ported heads, turn the boost up 1lb lol.
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AccordFlex (10-22-2013),
Majofo (10-22-2013)
10-22-2013, 12:22 PM
#51
Team Owner
Having seen many, many LS1s on the dyno, it's a little known fact that the stock pistons give up around 550whp. Maybe they've changed some things (obviously on some versions since they make that hp stock) since the LS1 came out and I was dynoing stuff all the time but I've seen more than a few come apart on the dyno at that level. The internet tends to give a best case scenario.
It's like my setup. Stock cast crank, stock 2 bolt block, stock cast rods. Mods are JE forged piston with tool steel pins, a block girdle, and a little hardbloc in the water jackets. I'm past what it's supposed to be able to hold and so are several people but I know this is a 1/4 mile car, I'm not going to be doing extended high speed runs into the higher gears and really loading it down. I could say a stock bottom engine will make 600+rwhp but that's a partial truth. It will only stay together on a perfect tune and it's a bad idea to shift to 4th and load it down. I've seen some let go at 550whp. Driving around it's limitations I've made it last for almost a decade while those wanting to do lots of high speed running on stock parts have not survived.
It's like my setup. Stock cast crank, stock 2 bolt block, stock cast rods. Mods are JE forged piston with tool steel pins, a block girdle, and a little hardbloc in the water jackets. I'm past what it's supposed to be able to hold and so are several people but I know this is a 1/4 mile car, I'm not going to be doing extended high speed runs into the higher gears and really loading it down. I could say a stock bottom engine will make 600+rwhp but that's a partial truth. It will only stay together on a perfect tune and it's a bad idea to shift to 4th and load it down. I've seen some let go at 550whp. Driving around it's limitations I've made it last for almost a decade while those wanting to do lots of high speed running on stock parts have not survived.
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Majofo (10-22-2013)
10-22-2013, 12:59 PM
#52
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
I don't think this project is going far.. but.. 
10-22-2013, 02:22 PM
#57
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
10-22-2013, 02:36 PM
#59
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
LSx is GM. 5.0 eludes to Ford.
10-22-2013, 05:02 PM
#60
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
Technically, GM has made three 5.0's. Or two 5.0's and one 4.9 rounded up to 5.0. The legendary 302 DZ (4.9L), the not so legendary Lxx 305 and the even less legendary 307. But none had an LSx designation. Even though Ford ran with the 5.0 marketing, the Fox body Mustangs were technically 4.9L. The Coyotes displace a true 5.0 liters.
When I was in HS, there was a guy a few towns over with a numbers matching '69 Z/28 and that 302 running at 8k RPM's still resonates in the back of my mind. I've never heard a car sound so good and I probably never will.
When I was in HS, there was a guy a few towns over with a numbers matching '69 Z/28 and that 302 running at 8k RPM's still resonates in the back of my mind. I've never heard a car sound so good and I probably never will.
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justnspace (10-22-2013)
10-22-2013, 08:28 PM
#61
Senior Moderator
The stock J series has the airflow to make 700whp with only a turbo but unfortunately not the rods or pistons to do so, at least not for more than a couple dyno pulls.
This is one reason I don't know why some of the turbo J guys put money into the heads and valvetrain and all of that stuff. The airflow is there, just add boost and a bottom end that will handle the power. If you want the same gains of ported heads, turn the boost up 1lb lol.
This is one reason I don't know why some of the turbo J guys put money into the heads and valvetrain and all of that stuff. The airflow is there, just add boost and a bottom end that will handle the power. If you want the same gains of ported heads, turn the boost up 1lb lol.
Got into the 9s in the 1/4 717whp@6950rpm/581wtq@6170rpm...20psi, 110 octane fuel
10-22-2013, 10:39 PM
#62
Team Owner
I don't buy it. An engine doesn't blow up from a valvetrain issue. The stock pistons have the top ring very close to the top with little material in the ring land and pin area. The rods while forged are tooth picks.
People can claim what they want but it's just not happening, at least not for long. I always knew the supercharged TLs were blowing engines at the 300-350hp level because of detonation when most thought that was the limit of the engine. The turbo guys managed to make 400-500whp while monitoring knock which is great but they had one thing in common, they eventually failed.
A stock J might be able to hit 700hp but it's not something you're going to be able to beat on all the time. It will let go. I was at Ken Duttweilers during a pull and a wastegate vacuum line blew off and boost hit just south of 50psi. I saw a very near stock LC2 hit over 650hp and nearly 800lbs of torque but I would never say an LC2 is capable of 800lbs on a stock bottom end because one held together for a second or two. For drag only duty, 100 passes is only 50 miles, half of which is basically coasting back to the lanes. Run that same car on the street and you can put the equivalent of a years worth of 1/4 mile runs in a good weekend. I know when I take my turbo car out it's to look for trouble, not to cruise. I'll have to find an old article where a mag installed a huge nitrous shot on a Yugo. It outran some legendary cars on the strip and beat a healthy old mopar (either a 440 Magnum or a 426 Hemi) on the freeway on the way home from the strip..... And then it blew up.
If I believed a J series could sustain 700hp, my TL would have a turbo. I'm assuming the 9 second car referred to was a Civic or at least much lighter than a stock TL which will help it to hold together but a quick view of the pistons screams I hate boost. The low friction and high top ring is great for what they were designed for, emissions and fuel economy but not sustained high combustion temps and pressures. It's got an awesome crank and block and if the pistons and rods were solid I would probably have a hot rod with a junkyard turbo J.
I should've asked in the beginning but was this a J32 or one of the larger engines? I call mine stock too, to most people because it is almost stock but I'm sure without the light mods to the bottom end it would have gone a long time ago. Maybe stock to one person means stock crank and block and heads.
People can claim what they want but it's just not happening, at least not for long. I always knew the supercharged TLs were blowing engines at the 300-350hp level because of detonation when most thought that was the limit of the engine. The turbo guys managed to make 400-500whp while monitoring knock which is great but they had one thing in common, they eventually failed.
A stock J might be able to hit 700hp but it's not something you're going to be able to beat on all the time. It will let go. I was at Ken Duttweilers during a pull and a wastegate vacuum line blew off and boost hit just south of 50psi. I saw a very near stock LC2 hit over 650hp and nearly 800lbs of torque but I would never say an LC2 is capable of 800lbs on a stock bottom end because one held together for a second or two. For drag only duty, 100 passes is only 50 miles, half of which is basically coasting back to the lanes. Run that same car on the street and you can put the equivalent of a years worth of 1/4 mile runs in a good weekend. I know when I take my turbo car out it's to look for trouble, not to cruise. I'll have to find an old article where a mag installed a huge nitrous shot on a Yugo. It outran some legendary cars on the strip and beat a healthy old mopar (either a 440 Magnum or a 426 Hemi) on the freeway on the way home from the strip..... And then it blew up.
If I believed a J series could sustain 700hp, my TL would have a turbo. I'm assuming the 9 second car referred to was a Civic or at least much lighter than a stock TL which will help it to hold together but a quick view of the pistons screams I hate boost. The low friction and high top ring is great for what they were designed for, emissions and fuel economy but not sustained high combustion temps and pressures. It's got an awesome crank and block and if the pistons and rods were solid I would probably have a hot rod with a junkyard turbo J.
I should've asked in the beginning but was this a J32 or one of the larger engines? I call mine stock too, to most people because it is almost stock but I'm sure without the light mods to the bottom end it would have gone a long time ago. Maybe stock to one person means stock crank and block and heads.
10-22-2013, 11:44 PM
#63
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
a J in the 9's 
Was it in a civic with slicks?!
Was it in a civic with slicks?!
10-23-2013, 06:57 AM
#64
Senior Moderator
I don't buy it. An engine doesn't blow up from a valvetrain issue. The stock pistons have the top ring very close to the top with little material in the ring land and pin area. The rods while forged are tooth picks.
People can claim what they want but it's just not happening, at least not for long. I always knew the supercharged TLs were blowing engines at the 300-350hp level because of detonation when most thought that was the limit of the engine. The turbo guys managed to make 400-500whp while monitoring knock which is great but they had one thing in common, they eventually failed.
A stock J might be able to hit 700hp but it's not something you're going to be able to beat on all the time. It will let go. I was at Ken Duttweilers during a pull and a wastegate vacuum line blew off and boost hit just south of 50psi. I saw a very near stock LC2 hit over 650hp and nearly 800lbs of torque but I would never say an LC2 is capable of 800lbs on a stock bottom end because one held together for a second or two. For drag only duty, 100 passes is only 50 miles, half of which is basically coasting back to the lanes. Run that same car on the street and you can put the equivalent of a years worth of 1/4 mile runs in a good weekend. I know when I take my turbo car out it's to look for trouble, not to cruise. I'll have to find an old article where a mag installed a huge nitrous shot on a Yugo. It outran some legendary cars on the strip and beat a healthy old mopar (either a 440 Magnum or a 426 Hemi) on the freeway on the way home from the strip..... And then it blew up.
If I believed a J series could sustain 700hp, my TL would have a turbo. I'm assuming the 9 second car referred to was a Civic or at least much lighter than a stock TL which will help it to hold together but a quick view of the pistons screams I hate boost. The low friction and high top ring is great for what they were designed for, emissions and fuel economy but not sustained high combustion temps and pressures. It's got an awesome crank and block and if the pistons and rods were solid I would probably have a hot rod with a junkyard turbo J.
I should've asked in the beginning but was this a J32 or one of the larger engines? I call mine stock too, to most people because it is almost stock but I'm sure without the light mods to the bottom end it would have gone a long time ago. Maybe stock to one person means stock crank and block and heads.
People can claim what they want but it's just not happening, at least not for long. I always knew the supercharged TLs were blowing engines at the 300-350hp level because of detonation when most thought that was the limit of the engine. The turbo guys managed to make 400-500whp while monitoring knock which is great but they had one thing in common, they eventually failed.
A stock J might be able to hit 700hp but it's not something you're going to be able to beat on all the time. It will let go. I was at Ken Duttweilers during a pull and a wastegate vacuum line blew off and boost hit just south of 50psi. I saw a very near stock LC2 hit over 650hp and nearly 800lbs of torque but I would never say an LC2 is capable of 800lbs on a stock bottom end because one held together for a second or two. For drag only duty, 100 passes is only 50 miles, half of which is basically coasting back to the lanes. Run that same car on the street and you can put the equivalent of a years worth of 1/4 mile runs in a good weekend. I know when I take my turbo car out it's to look for trouble, not to cruise. I'll have to find an old article where a mag installed a huge nitrous shot on a Yugo. It outran some legendary cars on the strip and beat a healthy old mopar (either a 440 Magnum or a 426 Hemi) on the freeway on the way home from the strip..... And then it blew up.
If I believed a J series could sustain 700hp, my TL would have a turbo. I'm assuming the 9 second car referred to was a Civic or at least much lighter than a stock TL which will help it to hold together but a quick view of the pistons screams I hate boost. The low friction and high top ring is great for what they were designed for, emissions and fuel economy but not sustained high combustion temps and pressures. It's got an awesome crank and block and if the pistons and rods were solid I would probably have a hot rod with a junkyard turbo J.
I should've asked in the beginning but was this a J32 or one of the larger engines? I call mine stock too, to most people because it is almost stock but I'm sure without the light mods to the bottom end it would have gone a long time ago. Maybe stock to one person means stock crank and block and heads.
http://www.j32a.com/showthread.php?t=2237
10-23-2013, 07:00 AM
#65
Senior Moderator
10-23-2013, 07:52 AM
#66
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
LS = GM
5.0 = Ford
I don't care about the anomaly of a 4.9 Fox body blah blah. Or that GM made an engine with that amount of displacement. Aren't there a few companies that technically do? Audi's V10... Anyway, when people refer to 5.0s they are implying one thing.
5.0 = Ford
I don't care about the anomaly of a 4.9 Fox body blah blah. Or that GM made an engine with that amount of displacement. Aren't there a few companies that technically do? Audi's V10... Anyway, when people refer to 5.0s they are implying one thing.
10-23-2013, 08:27 AM
#68
Here you go
I begged him to atleast break down the motor and gap the rings but he laughed...."Why when its a $250 motor?"
For anyone doubting the LS engine and stock bottom end here is a good read for you:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/h...g_bang_theory/
For those that dont like to read, the guys at Hot Rod Magazine were able to get 1,203HP from a stock block 4.8
10-23-2013, 10:41 AM
#70
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
10-23-2013, 10:41 AM
#71
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
10-23-2013, 10:54 AM
#73
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
10-24-2013, 11:12 PM
#75
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
10-27-2013, 12:19 AM
#76
I commend this guy for these two reasons:
1. Being the first to convert a 3g into RWD
2. Having the balls to use a carbed Ford motor with boost. Why? It will never hit a righteous tune and won't last.
Seriously though, congrats!
As for the conversation on the j-series and its bottom end capabilities, some of you have been reading too many threads where someone hasn't tuned properly and spreading inaccurate data is the outcome. Truth is, people run double and sometimes nearly triple the factory power ratings very frequently and the ones who have done it correctly get a lot of use from their engines still. It's actually very simple and has nothing to do with anything else except this: the less detonation an engine experiences under high load, the longer it will last. So, if you've been reading too many horror stories about broken motors, that just means that underneath it all THEIR TUNER SUCKS.
To those of us rocking the shit of the j-series, rock on!
1. Being the first to convert a 3g into RWD
2. Having the balls to use a carbed Ford motor with boost. Why? It will never hit a righteous tune and won't last.
Seriously though, congrats!
As for the conversation on the j-series and its bottom end capabilities, some of you have been reading too many threads where someone hasn't tuned properly and spreading inaccurate data is the outcome. Truth is, people run double and sometimes nearly triple the factory power ratings very frequently and the ones who have done it correctly get a lot of use from their engines still. It's actually very simple and has nothing to do with anything else except this: the less detonation an engine experiences under high load, the longer it will last. So, if you've been reading too many horror stories about broken motors, that just means that underneath it all THEIR TUNER SUCKS.
To those of us rocking the shit of the j-series, rock on!
10-27-2013, 12:56 PM
#77
Suzuka Master
Other than being a conversion I wasnt sure where to put this, but I want my TL to accelerate like this. at 54sec!! hahaha turbo j35
10-27-2013, 04:51 PM
#78
Team Owner
I commend this guy for these two reasons:
1. Being the first to convert a 3g into RWD
2. Having the balls to use a carbed Ford motor with boost. Why? It will never hit a righteous tune and won't last.
Seriously though, congrats!
As for the conversation on the j-series and its bottom end capabilities, some of you have been reading too many threads where someone hasn't tuned properly and spreading inaccurate data is the outcome. Truth is, people run double and sometimes nearly triple the factory power ratings very frequently and the ones who have done it correctly get a lot of use from their engines still. It's actually very simple and has nothing to do with anything else except this: the less detonation an engine experiences under high load, the longer it will last. So, if you've been reading too many horror stories about broken motors, that just means that underneath it all THEIR TUNER SUCKS.
To those of us rocking the shit of the j-series, rock on!
1. Being the first to convert a 3g into RWD
2. Having the balls to use a carbed Ford motor with boost. Why? It will never hit a righteous tune and won't last.
Seriously though, congrats!
As for the conversation on the j-series and its bottom end capabilities, some of you have been reading too many threads where someone hasn't tuned properly and spreading inaccurate data is the outcome. Truth is, people run double and sometimes nearly triple the factory power ratings very frequently and the ones who have done it correctly get a lot of use from their engines still. It's actually very simple and has nothing to do with anything else except this: the less detonation an engine experiences under high load, the longer it will last. So, if you've been reading too many horror stories about broken motors, that just means that underneath it all THEIR TUNER SUCKS.
To those of us rocking the shit of the j-series, rock on!
10-27-2013, 07:10 PM
#79
Senior Moderator
I was the first to preach about the importance of zero detonation and preignition to the supercharged guys who were blowing engines at the 330whp level and saying that's the limit of the engine when I knew it wasn't. However, a 700hp stock internal J is not going to run 700hp in a street car that's driven every day or at least on the street fairly often. It will let go. There's a difference in a 1/4 blast for 10-12 seconds on a cool engine vs something that's driven in far from optimal conditions that might see several "passes" in a few minutes on an already hot engine. The pistons are not built for boost. Look at the top ring. With no pinging you can get away with those kinds of cylinder pressures for a very short time. How many daily driven Js are on the street at that level? This is an honest question, I don't know the answer to.
The more that is discovered with these engines the better and more hp they are making. Especially with the tuning options becoming available now.
