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Does anyone know what injector we should use and what plug we decided we want the bosch style and not the grams injectors here is a link to Injector dynamics ID1000 Injectors - Injector Dynamics
is this done i would love to see the end result. Looks like a killer build. debating on what mods would be best on my 07 tl type s for some easy starter mods that i dont have to rip the engine apart for.. post some pics would love to see this thing
How does it drive having to pull air through the IC piping, or is that just to keep the pipe from getting dirt and garbage in it?
Yeah the only thing ive noticed was less noise.
The motor mounts I put in made quite a difference though. I mean holy hell are there a lot of vibrations.
Does anyone know what injector we should use and what plug we decided we want the bosch style and not the grams injectors here is a link to Injector dynamics ID1000 Injectors - Injector Dynamics
I got bogus information when inquiring and ended up with the wrong injectors initially. Both my runners and rails were 14mm and the RDX/stock injectors were 48mm long. I now have ID1000-48's with the plug kit.
For the RDX conversion, I was able to remove the pins/weathertite connection from the stock plug and fit them into the Scion based plugs without having to repin.
For this round, I am not sure if they are the same plugs so I bought the plug and pin kit and will just repin if I need to.
I'd say wait until you have the IM off and can take the rails/injectors off to measure for yourself.
I got bogus information when inquiring and ended up with the wrong injectors initially. Both my runners and rails were 14mm and the RDX/stock injectors were 48mm long. I now have ID1000-48's with the plug kit.
For the RDX conversion, I was able to remove the pins/weathertite connection from the stock plug and fit them into the Scion based plugs without having to repin.
For this round, I am not sure if they are the same plugs so I bought the plug and pin kit and will just repin if I need to.
I'd say wait until you have the IM off and can take the rails/injectors off to measure for yourself.
The best kept secret out there: the Fuel Injector Connection (fuelinjectorconnection.com ) dual cone Bosch Motorsports Motorcycle injector. It is the ONLY non-modified 970cc injector of any house brand which flows over 670cc from the factory. All other injectors, including Deatschwerks and Injector Dynamics are off the shelf injectors which have then had their nozzles DRILLED or GROUND to attain higher CC's per minute which kills injector performance (atomization) and is basically like turning on a water faucet. These are tailored towards twin intake valve head designs such as Hondas and Nissans. There are not drilled and not modified --- except for a machined lip with an Audi dual cone tip applied for a twin conical spray pattern. They essentially mimick the unmodified OEM Denso's for excellent twin cone atomization. They are supplied with pigtail adapters, or you can buy your own adapters elsewhere. While they actually measure around 52mm in body length, they will work with billet P2R fuel rails due to their design, which can absorb the extra length. Call them for a quote - I believe I paid $560 for a flow matched set, but don't quote me....its been a year.
The best kept secret out there: the Fuel Injector Connection (fuelinjectorconnection.com ) dual cone Bosch Motorsports Motorcycle injector. It is the ONLY non-modified 970cc injector of any house brand which flows over 670cc from the factory. All other injectors, including Deatschwerks and Injector Dynamics are off the shelf injectors which have then had their nozzles DRILLED or GROUND to attain higher CC's per minute which kills injector performance (atomization) and is basically like turning on a water faucet. These are tailored towards twin intake valve head designs such as Hondas and Nissans. There are not drilled and not modified --- except for a machined lip with an Audi dual cone tip applied for a twin conical spray pattern. They essentially mimick the unmodified OEM Denso's for excellent twin cone atomization. They are supplied with pigtail adapters, or you can buy your own adapters elsewhere. While they actually measure around 52mm in body length, they will work with billet P2R fuel rails due to their design, which can absorb the extra length. Call them for a quote - I believe I paid $560 for a flow matched set, but don't quote me....its been a year.
NOW you say something
Where were you 6 months ago when I bought mine!!!!!
Utah(s), you were originally looking at the FICs, what made you change your mind? Gerzand seems to like them and I didn't realize that ID's were ground, making them less appealing.
Utah(s), you were originally looking at the FICs, what made you change your mind? Gerzand seems to like them and I didn't realize that ID's were ground, making them less appealing.
Make sure youre speaking of FIConnection and not FIClinic! They are not made equal
Utah(s), you were originally looking at the FICs, what made you change your mind? Gerzand seems to like them and I didn't realize that ID's were ground, making them less appealing.
I like the bosch EV14 injectors, I think we will take Gerzand's advice and go with fuel injector connection thank's for the info.
There are a few injectors that are over 996cc factory. The Bosch 1000cc injector is actually made by Bosch with their own part number and is un-modified. This is why everyone sells the bosch so cheap. They are just upselling it. The next injector is the bosch 2200cc injector. Again a factory injector designed for propane injection but all of us E85 guys in little 4 bangers are using them. Both are EV14 style injectors.
Go check out ID injectors. The 1000cc injectors are like $400 for (4) yet you jump to the 1300cc injectors and they are $780 for (4). Why the price difference for only 1300cc? Because the 1000cc are un-modified and they are just turning them for profit after they "flow test them". :-)
There is a Bosch distributor here locally that gets all the locals the EV14 2200cc injectors for $80.00 each, while ID is charging like $200.00 each for a modified 2000cc injectors. Makes me laugh.
There are a few injectors that are over 996cc factory. The Bosch 1000cc injector is actually made by Bosch with their own part number and is un-modified. This is why everyone sells the bosch so cheap. They are just upselling it. The next injector is the bosch 2200cc injector. Again a factory injector designed for propane injection but all of us E85 guys in little 4 bangers are using them. Both are EV14 style injectors.
Go check out ID injectors. The 1000cc injectors are like $400 for (4) yet you jump to the 1300cc injectors and they are $780 for (4). Why the price difference for only 1300cc? Because the 1000cc are un-modified and they are just turning them for profit after they "flow test them". :-)
There is a Bosch distributor here locally that gets all the locals the EV14 2200cc injectors for $80.00 each, while ID is charging like $200.00 each for a modified 2000cc injectors. Makes me laugh.
How is idle quality on the 2200s? No issues with E I presume, or does it want to idle rich?
How is idle quality on the 2200s? No issues with E I presume, or does it want to idle rich?
Oh crap, so many variables to answer your question. Every set-up is SSSOOOO different I can't really answer your question but I will try. A 4 banger on pump gas with 280 cams....idle is hard. If the owner of the car will let me turn up the idle to 1100-1200 than then it idles fine. If the owner wants a full on race car on 2200cc injectors and then wants me to set the car to stock idle speed of 750 rpm, then it idles like CRAP.
Another scenario is when they have gone 2200cc injectors and are not flex fuel, so they dedicate the car to E85, then they idle pretty good. They are essentially like a 1600cc injector on E85 and the EV14 style are pretty good at that level.
Here is the thing though. Your going to notice a difference in idle quality when you go big no matter what you do. Honestly if someone will let me up the idle speed I can get all the big boy(think 1200cc+) injectors idle just fine. Half the time the owners of the cars wouldn't even know I have increased the idle speed if they didn't have a tachometer, but when they look down and its idling at 1100 rpm they think there is a problem. Thing is injectors don't like to be driven under 1% duty cycle and at my altitude(4500ft) our air is thin and any big injector at a set idle of around 700 might fall below 1%.
I could go on and on on this but I'm sure you got the answer you wanted and maybe more than you wanted. Some people say: "Go ID2000 on everything so it gives you room to grow". This is horse crap. Go with the injector size you need because you will get much better resolution out of it and enjoy the car more in a daily driving situation.
Oh crap, so many variables to answer your question. Every set-up is SSSOOOO different I can't really answer your question but I will try. A 4 banger on pump gas with 280 cams....idle is hard. If the owner of the car will let me turn up the idle to 1100-1200 than then it idles fine. If the owner wants a full on race car on 2200cc injectors and then wants me to set the car to stock idle speed of 750 rpm, then it idles like CRAP.
Another scenario is when they have gone 2200cc injectors and are not flex fuel, so they dedicate the car to E85, then they idle pretty good. They are essentially like a 1600cc injector on E85 and the EV14 style are pretty good at that level.
Here is the thing though. Your going to notice a difference in idle quality when you go big no matter what you do. Honestly if someone will let me up the idle speed I can get all the big boy(think 1200cc+) injectors idle just fine. Half the time the owners of the cars wouldn't even know I have increased the idle speed if they didn't have a tachometer, but when they look down and its idling at 1100 rpm they think there is a problem. Thing is injectors don't like to be driven under 1% duty cycle and at my altitude(4500ft) our air is thin and any big injector at a set idle of around 700 might fall below 1%.
I could go on and on on this but I'm sure you got the answer you wanted and maybe more than you wanted. Some people say: "Go ID2000 on everything so it gives you room to grow". This is horse crap. Go with the injector size you need because you will get much better resolution out of it and enjoy the car more in a daily driving situation.
I was thinking more in terms of J specific, but definitely good info. I see the rationale on both sides, but I agree - I'd rather buy multiple sets of injectors as I change power goals than to sacrifice the resolution jumping right to a 2200.
UPDATE!!!
the turbo is on its way. we went with the Borg Warner EFR, 8374, T4 twin scroll turbine, internally wastegated, 92 A/R housing. simmular in size to the precision 6266. BorgWarner EFR 8374 Turbo - Full-Race.com
and the bosch motorsports injectors from fuel injector connection FUEL INJECTOR CONNECTION - Bosch motorsport 970cc
(thank you gerzand for the tip)
got all the flanges, elbows for the exaust manifold. all thats left is the battery relocation kit, fuel pump, 3" elbows for the down pipe.
What battery relo kit are you getting? I just got Jegs kit and I like it since it cam with both the nylon strap and a threaded rod for hold down. Most only have the nylon strap. I also ordered this so I have battery terminals under the hood when needed. The bracket was really nice.
What kind of material are you using for the exhaust manifold? schedule pipe or gauge tube?
He just ordered this one from CX Racing ,
where did you get that from screaminz28 that looks nice
and what gauge of cable are you using ?
We are using schedule 10 (3mm thick) 304 stainless pipe and elbows, no drawings just in my head and go with the flow LOL
That's a nice box. I got the plastic one from Jegs - it came with 20ft of 2 gauge power cable for positive and 3' for negative. I put the battery box on the left rear of the trunk. I had planned to use the threaded rods thru the trunk to secure it, but you have to drop the muffler and mine is rust-welded together (Northern car!), so I'm only using the nylon straps until I do my exhaust.
The kit worked out well since Advance charges 2 bucks a foot for 2 gague wire, so it came with basically $50 worth of wire, plus $10 worth of terminals. I probably could have pieced it together for the same price or a tad cheaper, but it wasn't worth the hassle.
For your routing - I saw a previous post you said you are going to come from the back and then have the downpipe run in the front? I have a manual, so i was planning on making a 'reverse j-pipe' that comes up the front to the turbo and have the downpipe run towards the back and down.
That's a nice box. I got the plastic one from Jegs - it came with 20ft of 2 gauge power cable for positive and 3' for negative. I put the battery box on the left rear of the trunk. I had planned to use the threaded rods thru the trunk to secure it, but you have to drop the muffler and mine is rust-welded together (Northern car!), so I'm only using the nylon straps until I do my exhaust.
The kit worked out well since Advance charges 2 bucks a foot for 2 gague wire, so it came with basically $50 worth of wire, plus $10 worth of terminals. I probably could have pieced it together for the same price or a tad cheaper, but it wasn't worth the hassle.
For your routing - I saw a previous post you said you are going to come from the back and then have the downpipe run in the front? I have a manual, so i was planning on making a 'reverse j-pipe' that comes up the front to the turbo and have the downpipe run towards the back and down.
Is 2 gauge something you would recommend or do you think we could get away with something a little thinner.
I was planning on running my battery to the same spot and maybe making a little chest for the back of the trunk so I have a place to put my floor jack.
definitely going to have to get that remote terminal. For $40 there is no way I could pass that up.
And the routing plan if I can remember what my dad said is to run a pipe from the front exhaust port, around the eingine to the turbo flange. Then a pipe from the flange out a little to a v-band flange. Then a pipe from the back exhaust port at a little more of an upward angle to get over the rear motor mount, around that side to the v-band
Is 2 gauge something you would recommend or do you think we could get away with something a little thinner.
I was planning on running my battery to the same spot and maybe making a little chest for the back of the trunk so I have a place to put my floor jack.
definitely going to have to get that remote terminal. For $40 there is no way I could pass that up.
And the routing plan if I can remember what my dad said is to run a pipe from the front exhaust port, around the eingine to the turbo flange. Then a pipe from the flange out a little to a v-band flange. Then a pipe from the back exhaust port at a little more of an upward angle to get over the rear motor mount, around that side to the v-band
You could probably get away with a 4 gauge wire, but the 2 fits along the drivers side fine and also through the hole right in the middle of the firewall without issue. I didn't want to worry about any starting issues.
Now Im just debating where to mount the remote terminals. My original plan was on the frame rail where the battery tray mounted to, but that will probably interfere with the up-pipe. Let me know where you put yours if you get it.
I spent hours no days looking at dyno sheets and we came to the conclusion that the 9180 would not hit 12 psi until about 4500 + RPM and that is just to much lag for us expeciall with an automatic transmission, the 8374 is hitting 12 PSI before 3000 RPM even with the .92 A/R housing and it's a 79 LBS compressor (we only need 50 LBS at 7000 RPM to hold 12 PSI)so it won't choke up at redline, and this is a daily driver, I know that big 9180 sounds bad ass but the lag just sucks not worth the 20-30 HP at reline
Was there a specific reason for using an internal wastegate? Nothing wrong with it, just not as common in the honda world from what I've seen.
The EFR wastegate works just as good as the external and it makes for less fabrication and hardware under the hood, the EFR is the latest greatest in turbo chargers and by far the most durable turbo available just compare the EFR to the garrett bearing assembly
got my battery relocated and my injectors put in, Vit sent me a new map for the injectors
taking the battery out of the box is going to be a challenge to say the least,
ill send pics tomorrow.
talked with Vit and he said the best place for drivability tuning was the stock location , but they might go out faster, so just in case we are going to put bungs both before and after the turbo. will be putting a wideband gauge in the downpie to verify A/F accuracy.
Does anyone really know exactly how the algorithms are written with the pre/post o2 sensors?
The design that most of us are using have the pre sensors in the factory location and the post are post turbo pretty far down the downpipe. My wideband is about 2 feet from the last factory sensor.
From research and advice, the stock location right off the heads are in a location that will burn up any of the available wideband sensors in short order.
But what I don't know, especially with the the hondata flashed ecu, is how is the A/F actually measured/calculated. I'm assuming that each bank is handled and tweaked separately.
Does it use the pre/post sensor on each bank used after warm up or are they simply there for the warm up cycle?
In my case, I throw an occasional CEL for pre/post timing. Not sure if it's a sensor going bad from being exposed to excessive fuel or if the distance between the two sensors is too great.
I'm sorry to see you abandon the remote mount turbo, I've been trying to figure out how to get that done, unfortunately I don't have the skills to do it myself and I haven't been able to find a shop that is willing to help me out to get it done so far. The regular turbo mount looks cool too, I'm sure you'll like that as well.
talked with Vit and he said the best place for drivability tuning was the stock location , but they might go out faster, so just in case we are going to put bungs both before and after the turbo. will be putting a wideband gauge in the downpie to verify A/F accuracy.
The pre-cat OEM sensors are a 5 wire wideband - hence their ridiculous cost. Why would an aftermarket one go out faster? I don't understand that.
I would have the oem location for the 'upstream' sensors, and then an aftermarket wideband for the 'downstream' about 18in from the turbo in the downpipe.
No need to even run the oem secondary o2s, they are merely for catalyst efficiency and can be disabled in the Hondata.
I'm sorry to see you abandon the remote mount turbo, I've been trying to figure out how to get that done, unfortunately I don't have the skills to do it myself and I haven't been able to find a shop that is willing to help me out to get it done so far. The regular turbo mount looks cool too, I'm sure you'll like that as well.
Bring it to Salt lake city, I will do it still wanting to try out a remote setup
Have any of you had a OE sensor go bad mounted pre turbo ? I know in the 4cly world everyone puts them 1-2 feet after the turbo but on the 6cly we have to worry about bank one and bank two fuel trim in closed loop don't we ? or is it not separated and one fuel trim for both banks ? I know that the factory HDS only shows one fuel trim not two so that makes me think they are not separate so we can put both of them after the turbo, On my TSX k24 I mounted my sensor 26 inches after the turbo and it was to far away and the computer would hunt for the right A/F at idle, up and down from 11's to 16's
10-02-2014, 03:23 PM
very nice progress so far.
