kingkong_dav

A few questions i need answered.


Can i run a hbp with 91 octane gas ?
Can i run a hbp without meth n inttercooler?
Can i run a hbp with stock injectors?

My car is a dd. I have a sc on its way. It will be tuned using hondata.

NvrDwn

Yes yes maybe. The first two can be tuned. The third I'm not sure what the limitations are. Probably something close to 325whp.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

A few questions i need answered.

Can i run a hbp with 91 octane gas ?

Yes HOWEVER, it is best to use whatever is the highest (93). I'm in NJ and I'm lucky enough just the next town over the Sunoco has 100 unleaded. I put about 3-4 gallons mixed with 93 to help with any knock and lower the combustion camber temperature. With a high boost pulley you are going to create A TON of heat. Why use the highest? Well, simple stuff I learned back in 2005 while in Technician Automotive school and training through-out the past year.

"Higher octane fuel has additives to slow the burning of the fuel. Higher octane fuel can eliminate an existing knock in a car that is advanced too much or that has higher compression from deposits occupying some of the combustion chamber space.
In a car that is tuned and running optimally on 87 octane use of a 93 octane fuel, because it burns slower, will shift the peak pressure of combustion to a point farther along the crank revolution. If with 87 octane, peak pressure was reached at TDC, then the 93 octane might produce peak pressure several degrees after TDC. As a result, pressures in the cylinder will be lower overall because the piston will have begun traveling down it's stroke and the effective chamber size at the peak pressure will be larger. Since pressure produces heat (the more the molecules are packed together, the more they bump into each other, and the more movement, and the more heat), a lower pressure in the combustion chamber will result is reduced heat. It also should result in reduced performance (lower pressure = less push on the piston). So it seems pretty simple that if the higher octane burns slower, peak pressure will be delayed, and that delay will result in reduced pressure, which would generate less heat."

Can i run a hbp without meth n inttercooler?

Again, you can. HOWEVER, the amount of heat already generated WITHOUT the high boost pulley is enough that MOST do use Methanol injection. Others have either (Sunny) Removed their hoods in the summer season, under hood cowl cutting to allow under hood temps to drop, bypass coolant lines going to TB, make a custom CAI and other have driven with hood spacers to also allow under hood temps to drop. Running a high boost pulley and it will overdrive the blower. You have to figure out a heat solution. Ultimately, a meth kit added to what I said will help. What would help more would be a front mount like Eric has.

Can i run a hbp with stock injectors?

My car is a dd. I have a sc on its way. It will be tuned using hondata.

This I will say for a VERY short term you can run on stock injectors. Opel from NYC ran high boost pulley with stock injectors and his fuel pressure regulator crushed and was tuned. He broke 350 HP (If not more) but ran into engine problems. You are pushing in a lot of compressed air, NOT enough fuel to run that boost safe. I know he went through a few motors (Not sure why, I never looked into it) it could have been with his setup and not having enough fuel. I always say, If you're going to tune the car you might as well go all the way at that point and make sure the exhaust, fuel and some sort of cooling for the blower is done. You can read his thread here: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/new-dyno-run-gone-bad-736249/

BTW, methanol injection is no bullshit either. Meth can be your friend as well as your enemy. Too much meth used while boosting and you have a VERY high risk of saying good bye to the engine. Read this thread about Meth injection, http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=937176
The comptech kit was designed and tested on a STOCK TL. It was not tested with the HBP on a stock TL, and there's a good reason for that.. Best of luck, enjoy the whine.

flint

iTrader: (2)

I had some detonation using the hbp when I had my SC CL-S. And this was with 93 Octane. I was always fighting it until I switched back to the regular comptech pulley.

kingkong_dav

thanks for the heads up, my sc kit should arrive shortly. I have the type s so im excited and worried at the same time. I dont know what to expect and after my questions being answered im sticking with the supplied pulley. A Buick Regal GS supercharged came by for a dump and pump oil change and i took it for a test drive. This is werid, it shows it was maxing out at 7 psi of boost but it was very slow up the top end, it was screeching the tires but nothing extranvant. I hope the CT kit isnt like this because it cost a lot. I did some research about supercharger oil and most shops are using 5w-30 oil. is this true?

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

I still dont know why you went and bought that supercharger kit when it has been proven to not be the correct kit for the 3.5L.

NvrDwn

Take it back and get a turbo system. There is one in northern NC for an accord that makes 350whp and 330wtq they install it and all for like 5.5k. I don't see why they couldn't do this in a tl. Google or YouTube to find out which shop cause I forget.

kingkong_dav

shut up. dont make me cry.

what is proven that it didnt work. you mean hengs 62 thread? you have to be kidding me the way he spoke was a joke. one lie to another... but since his thread there came along flashpro. well see my boy well see...

I hate cars

93 does not burn slower than 91 or 87 for that matter. I wish that myth would go away. My C14 race gas burns quicker than 91. Higher octane has more resistance to detonation which is an uncontrolled explosion vs a quick burning.

Even for the stock pulley you need methanol if you want it to live. With the HBP you really need meth. It cools, adds octane, and adds fuel that the stock injectors can't.

The so called "engine management" that comes with the supercharger is primitive at best. I wouldn't think about running that undersized blower without meth no matter what pulley you use.

kingkong_dav

i ditched the hbp idea. IHC, what is the ideal AFR for us in the SO CAL?

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Get the super charger ported and run stock pulley if you want to pass smog. Water meth is a must or else your sc turns to shit once it heat soaks

y friend has a sc in norcal and he has to run meth

kingkong_dav

i was told by a racing supercharger builder not to use meth because it is for RACE only. I will be fine with small boost. im not too worried about heat soak, this is normal. im not dragging my car remember its DD. But to help with the added heat i will remove the transmisson bottom cover and bust a Ultimate Cooling Mod.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Water meth is nothing. The Tl already pings with 91. Adding water meth can only help. Also help with DD since it heat soak and you want to accelerate it kinda laggs since the timing get pulled. This is from driving his car with and without meth. Also you gain a few more ponies while running meth, but make sure to have someone that knows what they are doing tune the car to run on meth without going overboard. Water meth is just a safety net.

I hate cars

12.0-11.5 is a good target AFR under light boost. Even under a few lbs of boost you must monitor it with a knock detector or you will eventually destroy the engine. With the HBP the engine will be junk even quicker.

91 octane is not enough even for the low boost pulley. I would run straight meth for best power, best cooling, easiest tuning, and engine reliability (it's 130 octane). You can run the AFR a little richer with straight meth. With such a small supercharger, intake air temps are going to be very high, higher than the turbo kit at 20psi. Meth can cool almost as well as a good intercooler.

kingkong_dav

IHC can i get your advice, look at this graph https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-problems-fixes-114/need-help-knock-retard-3000rpm-loosing-power-902903/ my tq drop LOW at 3000rpm, what could cause this. I want everything to right before i slap my charger on. I was on my hondata using datalog and i see there is 2-3-4 degree of knock around this rpm.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

First of all, sentence number one is very much not true. Take it from me. Up till 10lbs (turbo) I was not experiencing any cylinder knock once fully street tuned. After 10lbs, that's when I began seeing random cylinder knock regardless of adding fuel or retarding ignition. I kept thinking it was due to heat soak initially until I realized heat soak was just a "triggering factor" and wasn't the actual problem. The j-series seems to be a very detonation happy engine above 10lbs but can sometimes be as high as 12lbs. Once you reach 10-12lbs, you must tune very aggressively to protect your motor. I found that water/meth was the biggest solution to nearly all of my issues. I was running 12-15lbs after meth and could easily add timing back in, lean out the mixture, see decreased underhood temps, etc. I will never run boost again without it. A progressive injection controller is even better given that its set up properly.

Secondly, on the heat soak issue, make sure your tuning is right as I was touching on above. Tuning makes an enormous difference in not only performance but also areas such as heat. Once tuning is set in place and heat soak is still an apparent problem, begin targeting it directly. I'm sure anyone that has a j32a3 engine and beyond (in production age that is) will quickly complain about heat soak. What I've personally never heard anyone speak about is how the j-pipe radiates massive amounts of heat not only into the oil pan, but also right back up into the engine compartment. Not to mention the catalytic converters that are miniature fireballs bolted to each side of the engine. This has to be THE poorest design ever with exhaust and should be shielded immediately. Or even better, install PCD's and pull the precats out but don't forget the defouler. I've done this to several j-series engines (my own j37a1 Accord included) and made the most drastic difference on heat reduction. Get on ebay and buy some newer year model Audi/VW/Porsche/BMW/Mercedes used factory heatshields and mend them to fit your exhaust in a man er that best suites your needs. They are made from a stainless/ceramic composite that not only reflects radiant heat, it also insulates itself from the heat. Brilliant!

Good luck my friend.

I hate cars

The heat issues with the supercharger is more from the supercharger being undersized and super heating the air when it compresses it. Not much you can do about it besides meth or an intercooler.

How many psi you can run with a turbo vs supercharger before pinging is not the same. A supercharger will not make as much whp per lb of boost. Part of it is due to the less dense super heated air and part is the 20-40hp lost in driving the supercharger.

A turbo will deliver a much cooler charge due to a more efficient compressor and an intercooler. A supercharger won't be able to run the same boost pressure as a turbo on a given octane, at least not the undersized one supplied with the TL.

You can intercool the supercharger but you will need to run the HBP to make up for the pressure drop and with the throttlebody before the supercharger you can run into drivability issues. Methanol is the best option whether it's for the standard pulley or the HBP. It's good for making the engine last much longer and for making more power.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Ok, I need to clear something up about using methanol in low boost applications like the SC. Most meth kits don't spray at 100% until 6 psi, so you can set the controller to start spraying at 1 psi, but at 3psi ( what the SC makes psi wise with free flowing exhaust ) you are only getting 50% of the nozzles volume of water / meth mix. Combine this with not being in boost all that much or for very long at a time, you are still getting pretty high air intake temps.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

You can use a progressive controller and set it to load or duty cycle. That is what I have been using for my motor. I get nice spray based on duty cycle. Beats WOT and Boost triggers.

http://howertonengineering.com/

kingkong_dav

I have most of the supercharger parts here. Waiting on the Blower. How do i bleed the boost out so i can drive around until i get my tune

MAS

iTrader: (3)

^^^Zip tie the bypass valve in the open position.

MAS

iTrader: (3)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi speed

Ok, I need to clear something up about using methanol in low boost applications like the SC. Most meth kits don't spray at 100% until 6 psi, so you can set the controller to start spraying at 1 psi, but at 3psi ( what the SC makes psi wise with free flowing exhaust ) you are only getting 50% of the nozzles volume of water / meth mix. Combine this with not being in boost all that much or for very long at a time, you are still getting pretty high air intake temps.

I agree with alot of this although i believe the AEM meth kit can inject the second stage at a lower PSI if you turn past the lowest point on the dial (mine seems to do that).

Hispeed, i'm using the HBP and my pressure seems to be maxed out between 5.5-6psi. I've been wondering if my free flowing exhaust (PCDs, Hi-flow 3rd cat, ATLP Base) is contributing to keep that number down. I'm not complaining because the care pulls really good where its at now with the Hondata tune but i'm just curious. Thoughts??

MAS

iTrader: (3)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingkong_dav

thanks for the heads up, my sc kit should arrive shortly. I have the type s so im excited and worried at the same time. I dont know what to expect and after my questions being answered im sticking with the supplied pulley. A Buick Regal GS supercharged came by for a dump and pump oil change and i took it for a test drive. This is werid, it shows it was maxing out at 7 psi of boost but it was very slow up the top end, it was screeching the tires but nothing extranvant. I hope the CT kit isnt like this because it cost a lot. I did some research about supercharger oil and most shops are using 5w-30 oil. is this true?

Kong,

The CT kit is also "nothing extravagant". The added power this kit gives even its highest configuration (HBP, Meth, Hondata, CAI, Higher injectors) is not a street killer. You will not begin to take down Mustangs and Evos left and right. It never was and it looks like it never will be. If you bought it thinking that that you will probably not be satisfied and may regret your buy. Me personally i do not do much if any street racing. I never go to the strip. I love the looks of this car and once paid off i wanted more cojones to go with nice looks of the car. I've got all those supporting mods and i'm currently finishing my hondata tuning. The car is a beast for me. In 1st gear i barely have time to think before i'm hitting red line. In 2nd i'm already up past 50mph. In 3rd i'm coming up on 100mph when i hit redline. 4th bring me past 110, 120mph with ease. At that point i dont have the roads or the balls to spend a bunch of time above 150mph. So my point is it works for me. I knew the limitations going in. Dont get me wrong i can take down plenty of G35, G37, BMWs, Audis in current configuration so i wouldnt say its weak. I bought it not only for the boost in power but for the new world of mods this opened up and it has been so fun and have learned ALOT.

Sorry for going on so long but i have been seeing this debate go on for years and i thought i would throw out my perspective for you and others who may be interested.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

The exhaust mods are exactly what is keeping the psi down, but the power up.
In terms of methanol kits, AEM is the kit I use and am most familure with, but I have never turned the full spray setting below what the numbers indicate. Even running 12 pounds of boost and the largest jet, I have gone thru less than 1 gal since installing the turbo 20k+ miles ago.

MAS

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, give it a try. Not sure how much lower you might be able to get but let us know. I have gone threw more meth than you and i dont have any leaks, medium nozzle and not my daily driver so seems like im getting into 2nd stage more often than you would think. Not sure what PSi 2nd is kicking in for me because of the scale and no boost gauge yet. Actually can anyone recommend a gauge pod that they know can easily fit our pillar well??....And a boost gauge with 10psi max range??

BTW, what do you guys think about E85 gas?? I just found a place not 5min form my house that has it. Asked a friend and he swears by it yet reading online seems like there my be some negatives.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Howare you guys using less then 1 gallon when your boosted? I use 1-2 gallon every few months from DD on 3mm nozzle with the aquamist kit.

Pghpizzaman

e85 will give you more power hands down. but MPGs drop significantly and you need very high flow pump and injectors, and a return line. you will get more power less knock. but you will double your trips to the gas station.

I hate cars

Dave, part of what you experienced is a trait of the Buick V6. Even though it's a series II evolution it flows about the same air (crappy heads) and small cam with a relatively low redline as the Grand National. It's designed for effortless low end and midrange power but it's not a high rpm screamer. In other words it's the opposite of the TL.

It's like a stock GN running half the factory boost and with a less efficient compressor. The power delivery between the two is very similar. Back when I was going for big numbers on a stock from the throttlebody down, I would have to look it up but I made close to 450whp but over 600lbs of torque. It was a tremendous head spinning experience off the start but it trapped only 120mph or so and I hit that elusive 10.9x 1/4 run on a 100% stock engine with a turbo, intercooler, and fuel system upgrade.

All I'm trying to say is don't get too discouraged, the power delivery of the Buick and the TL are very opposite. The TL will always make more power per lb of boost. In fact, if the factory had used better rods and pistons you could literally make 1,000hp without ever removing the throttlebody or a valvecover. They did a great job of bringing out some serious airflow but the bottom end won't take what it's capable of.

Make sure to run meth no matter what pulley you run. Make sure you monitor knock, there's nothing more important than this if you want your engine to live you must install a knock detector. I've done literally 10 years of water/meth research and trust me, pure meth will make the most power and will be the easiest to tune. It also cools the intake air better than water.

There's nothing wrong with running the HBP as long as you're running meth. Detonation is what destroys engines, not boost so if the meth stops it from detonating or pinging and you can confirm it with a knock detector run the HBP.

If it were me, I would mess with the bypass to make boost come in sooner and increase low end torque by a lot. Only if you're running meth of course. I never understood why they have the boost come in so late other than to get around the primative engine management that comes with it but methanol takes care of that. Like High Boost said, you may not be able to get the full meth flow at the relatively low boost pressure but you can order it with more than one nozzle to get the right amount of flow.

Opening up the exhaust is very important for both power and to keep it from pinging. I think you've done this already but just throwing it out there.

If you run into any issues I can make a trip down there to help out.

ziggyh22

iTrader: (3)

Dave Ill hit you up soon so we can talk and hopefully I can answer your questions. Im currently gathering all the parts I need to convert to E85 which is not much Bigger injectors,fuel pump and tune which I'm running hondata so that shouldn't be a problem Sean from Church's is handling the install and tune. But if you S/C with 91 is not an issue specially with Hondata stock injectors will be fine but at 4lbs of boost stock injectors are already at 80-88% duty cycle so eventually you should get bigger injectors. But we need to link up soon so I can see what you've got cooking!

kingkong_dav

its here. My compressor is here!

Im soo lucky so this is what happened. I called Doug@hondata and we talked about having a base map for a S/C Type S. Hondata have excellcent service and knowlegde. Doug sent me a custom base map requiring 410cc rdx injectors and comptech supercharger. it was specifictly made for the Type S ua7. the S/C is missing the spark plugs, throttle body gaskets, a couple of O rings. I have the NGK IR plugs but i really want the Denso IK22. Ziggyh22 tells me it should be ok but any other opinions?

again Doug @ Hondata gave me this base map that made me feel 100% confiendent that the type s will respond to boost.

MAS

iTrader: (3)

Nice, congrats! By the way, i'm finishing up my tune with Vittuned as we speak and car is running great. Its only $100+ and your tune shouldnt be too far from mine so that might be a good use of $100 to have him do yours. I dont mind sending you my latest tune but i wouldnt know what would need adjustment for yours.

ziggyh22

iTrader: (3)

Good seeing you Dave! Thanks for the top hats Cant wait for your build to be done if you need help lemme know!

MAS

iTrader: (3)

Hey Kong, how about this? Its from Vit's edyno (not an actual dyno) so ill assume it high but my calibrated butt dyno indicates its pretty beastly.

kingkong_dav

pretty goood mas.

question how is the process with you and vitviper? explain how tuning is done through email

MAS

iTrader: (3)

You tell him your setup......he sends base map....you download and drive the car per his instructions while Hondata is connected getting a datalog....you email datalog to him...he analyzes the datalog via his edyno calculator and then sends you a new calibration. He works in stages so it takes quite a bit of tune>datalog>retune cycles to go from basemap to fully tuned. Datalog is done at night on the same street every time for best results and because Vit has a day job.

bouncer07

Find a good flat road because speed exeeds 100+ MPH.

MAS

iTrader: (3)

Thats true.....my spot is sweet.....private company road with no gates to get in and only people who work there would be driving thru. Of course the time of night i was tuning no one was working BUT i believe the security guard who roams the whole area is starting to notice me because last night i drove by and he was parked right at the straight were i usually datalog on. Find yourself something like that and have fun!

kingkong_dav

Im Iwaiting on my injectors but i got my comptech fuel pressure regulator on and a set of denso ik20l plugs in. Im adding bits in at time until the blower goes in. I cant afford to have a car that revs to 3k until money is there for the tune.

kingkong_dav

i added the supercharger brackets in today. The alternator mount fits perfectly on the type s, and the mount that sits inside the cam seal sits perfectly too. A/c line tie down fits, FPR fits. Im going all out and making the battery tray fit the huge type S trans. Stay tuned for pictures. as for 410 cc injectors its still on delay. I cant run without it because my custom boost base map, calibrated by doug...just wont let me BOOST. Stay tuned again.

kingkong_dav