KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

So for those who don't know, I installed a J&R turbo in March of 2010. Have gone through an FI/C-6, MS3 and now running a 2008 Type-S ECU with Flashpro. Never had it tuned and had an occasional overboost which eventually caused a lot of blowby. I finally got the guts to tear it down and found this:



Remarkably, there appears to be no cylinder damage but I will know once I get it checked out by a machine shop. I am hoping it just needs to be honed.

I've already gotten my pistons, CP Carrillo SC70404's. Here is a picture compared to stock



The difference from the crown to the top of the first ring slot is 6.75mm compared to 5.25mm stock.

The ring slot is 1mm compared to 1.2mm stock

The next land is 4.35mm compared to 3.6mm stock

Again the ring slot is 1mm compared to 1.2mm stock

The next land and oil ring is identical to stock (2.25mm land, 2.75mm oiler).

The one thing that may become an issue is the compression height. The CP's are shorter by 1mm or so. Not sure if that'll be an issue but at least it's not taller.

I'll be able to compare it better once the Pauter rods arrive. They spec 162mm and I measure 161.5 stock.

Oh, forgot to mention, the small end width is 1"



This is what I am left with.....

Stored, tagged and bagged



Bare block



Heads.....may use a pair of ported and polished sitting on bench in basement. Need to check the sealing surfaces to see how good the seats are.



Crank on bench



Old pistons and rods in box



and if here are the markings to determine the main and rod bearing sizes





more to come as I progress....still have to order rod/main bearings, gaskets and assembly expendables.

EvilVirus

iTrader: (8)

Awesome job as always man.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

The piston part number shows as for a K20. Is that just because of the series, or are these an off the shelf piston? What C/R you going with on the rebuild?

Its been a while since I've done any engine math, but wouldnt the lower compression height result in a MUCH lower C/R, or you'd need a longer rod to compensate, right?

Any idea how much power you were making roughly before that ring land broke? I know you said it was an overboost situation. I'm curious, was it a high rpm top gear run that it occured at? I had tons of friends that killed B series motors on highway runs. Granted that was the FMU days, lol, so tuning was a foreign language back then.

Are you currently/going to run meth, or E85? I see lots of meth on the forum here, but not much E85 talk, which I would think is preferred for its octane and cooling properties. Well, as long as it's available. It's about 50 cents less than 93 here, so I'm considering going that route, I just haven't figured out enough info on the fueling situation with the TL yet.

Can't wait to see your build!

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I am using a combination suggested by a friend so I am pretty sure it's going to be fine. There is no production part numbers for 3G TL pistons but you can match up specs for 4 cylinder off the shelf performance pistons. The hardest part was finding someone willing to work with CP directly and I had several orders cancelled because they only sold in qty's of 4.

The whole idea is to drop the C/R targeting the mid-9's. From there, I'll turn up the boost targeting mid-400's or so. Of coarse that'll depend on the fuel system and if I reach the limits of the existing injectors and the need to go with a returnless/external regulated system.

I never had the engine dyno'd so I don't know what I was producing. I had the boost limited to about 8lbs and went no higher than 14 at very short bursts, which is the spr of the wastegate. The damage you see was not catastrophic. I continued to drive with the blowby until the snow flew last year. It was when I tore it down that pieces fell out when the piston was removed. I am pretty sure that this damage was caused by the very very occasional detonation I was experiencing. Also considering a J&S Safeguard to help with that.

I've already got an Alky meth injection system installed. Up here in VT, I haven't seen any E85 at all. But I am going to stick with 93 and supplement with pure meth.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Buy Yungone j35 crankshaft and stroke the motor while your at it

kingkong_dav

while your at it get the j37 block and use the j32 heads. Monster setup, that's my intention if my motor blows

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

bmeyer tore up 4th gear shortly after putting it on the road (j37 stroked)

libert69 eventually tore up 4th gear (stock stroke but @ +550whp).

I'm going to stay in the lower/mid 400's with the hopes of keeping the transmission alive a little longer. M-factory has tooling to produce heavier gears but there isn't enough interest to get 10 sets sold.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Got Ya how much are a set of those gears?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

It was $7200 about 2 years ago for 10 sets. Not outrageous if you can get 10 sets sold. Not likely here.....

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

720 not too bad. maybe j32a

klene259

Sub'd

bp_spets

Why were you running a turbo kit without tuning it? Especially with flashpro, there's no excuse for not getting it tuned.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I can't believe how much material you lost from that piston. The pic you posted in an earlier thread looked like a much smaller piece was missing. I am getting a lot of blow by too and thinking if parking the TL might be a good idea until the engine swap.
I think we can tune into the high 400 low 500 HP as long as the tranny is treated respectfully.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Probably higher - there's a guy on J32 making 700 whp with the stock 6 speed and a stock motor with valvesprings.

Granted, his is a drag car, but he's running 9s at 150 so he's not babying it.

After reading how the flashpro's knock control works, I think a J&S safeguard is cheap insurance for a daily driver that is needed for reliability. I work from home and don't need my car daily so I may not get a J&S right away - heck a junkyard motor is only $400.

K&N, when you said you weren't tuned, do you mean weren't fine tuned, or were you running on the stock timing maps?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

No comment

The top ring was totally frozen. As I picked it out, more and more pieces fell off. I am extremely lucky I stopped driving when I did.

Base maps were set for the given ecu's I was using and target boost. I just never had it dyno tuned.

I hate cars

I'm looking forward to the build. It looks like the ring ends butted together which is pretty common. I would lean toward that as the cause of the piston failure, been there done that. That's the difference in a quick 9 second run at a time drag car and a street car. How did that cylinder look? When the almost identical failure happened to me, I had 90psi in once cylinder. It had a dead miss until it spooled (slowly) to 10psi and then the dead cylinder would light off and power felt normal again.

Corey_Straker

I want to do something like this so bad, I have a J37a1 shortblock and I was going to use my J35a8 heads from my Type-S, I believe my compression before turbocharging it will be too high though, around 11.5:1, If I have read correctly we want around 9.5:1 for a turbo build right? If any of you have driven a Turbo RDX that's the feel I want for mine, just more power. Maybe reliable 350-375hp so I can retain stock fuel systems. Could someone explain what the J&S Safeguard does? Turbo noob.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

What condition were the rings in? Were they cracked as well? I've seen numerous turbo hondas with cracked ring lands but the rings were still in tact.

IHC, if the rings did butt together, wouldn't they likely be cracked as well? If not, would you not suspect just detonation?

My guess would be too much advance in an overboost situation. I've seen lots of base maps that merely have the advance set proper up to the correct amount of boost someone intends to run, and never lowers it to a safe(r) amount at higher levels.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

The J&S safeguard is an aftermarket knock control mechanism. It's not a knock sensor alone, as the TL has one. However, the TL's knock control is not useful for situations such as a boosted application. It has different maps for different octane levels, and will not react fast enough in a situation where it would be needed.

Here's a quick rundown on how it works from their site:

• How it works:

The system makes a spark, then decides if there was knock. If knock is detected, software "knows" it had to come from the cylinder that just fired, and that cylinder won't fire again for two revolutons.

When that cylinder comes up to fire the next time, software dials in the calculated amount of knock retard. It does this as each cylinder goes by, building up a different timing curve for each cylinder if knock is detected.

The unit retards in steps, a total of ten steps are possible. Each step is one or two degrees, depending on a user mode switch. When knock is detected, software retards in proportion to knock intensity.

The unit responds to inaudible knock, and retards quickly enough to prevent knock from becoming audible. The re-advance rate is one step every twenty revolutions. Note that the unit will not advance beyond stock timing. Of course, you may choose to bump the timing a bit after installing the unit.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I was monitoring everything but as I said, there was an occasional knock detected and handled, but as some here have said, the reaction time of the ECU is not good enough to prevent damage.

Also IHC's comment about ring gap is accurate. With half or more of the ring hung up in the slot, there was almost no ring gap visible.

I know Matt is going to tell me no knock is the goal, but is the J&S unit any better at intercepting knock and reacting than an MS3 or stock ECU? It's basically doing the same thing except it's directly wired to the COP.....

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

You explained EXACTLY what I was experiencing.

Fortunately, the cylinder looked like all the others. Nothing visually different. I'll have the machine shop check the bore when I go to get it honed. Hopefully I won't have any problems and can use the pistons I already have.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Sorry for all the single posts...

I didn't inspect the rings that closely but they came out in 1 piece. I wasn't going crazy with the timing table, actually focused more on the fuel tables. But it did knock on occasion for sure.

I hate cars

Ironically, most of the time the ends that butt together are surprisingly fine. The ring may come out in 2-3 pieces but the gap will *usually* look ok. I actually did this on an engine with forged pistons and it looked almost identical to KN's pictures with the second ring land knocked out. There will usually be a lot of play and wear between the ring and the piston ring land if it was run long like that.

I'm thinking this was not detonation (for once lol) but more heat than it was designed for. Other than material and overall diameter, the biggest factor in determining ring gap is expected temperatures. It probably got too hot, the gap closed up, friction increased, it got even hotter, and the piston ring land lost the fight. The thrust surface of the piston looks great, no scuffing, so the engine (well, coolant) wasn't overheated nor was the piston.

It's a shame the J series does not run a larger gap, we could have people running around with a reliable 500-600hp daily driver with absolutely no engine work necessary. E85 could very well extend the J series tolerable continuous hp.

I don't want to give out misinformation but in my experience detonation seems to be the hardest on the crown and the pin area of the piston. There are always exceptions of course.

If the pin is higher in the aftermarket pistons (someone mentioned it, I think), the downside is a longer rod will have to be used. The plus is it's free power. I've seen offset bushings used but I don't recommend it.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

I'm not too familiar with the megasquirt's knock control, but Honda's is lacking at best. That is to say, its knock control, not its knock detection. Think of the Honda knock control as a map selector for 87 to 93 octane.

I think a J&S is hands down the way to go for a daily driven car. Just as you said, the goal is to tune for no knock, and if you overboost to a large degree it might not save it, but it's better than stock for sure.

Now, if you run E85, you'll probably have a hard time getting it to knock. I havent done any tuning on the J motors, but for Subarus, on E85, you can exceed MBT well before knocking. From what I've seen, and what everyone says regarding the J motor's propensity to knock even in stock form, I'd be curious to see if MBT can be exceeded on E. I don't see MBT referenced much here, but that is how the Honda knock control is 'referenced' if you will.


K&N, do you have your timing map you can post? I'd like to see what it looks like, and also, if you have any idea what it overboosted to, and what the timing was in those ranges.

Atlas.46

Would these pistons work on stock rods?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Not sure if the difference in the small end width would cause problems. It's 1" on the pistons and 3/4" on the rod. There's less than .1" of difference with the stock combination.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

So.......considering abandoning this whole mess, going completely back to stock and hand the keys to my son.

I'm tired of dealing with companies who never get back to you because these engines and this model in particular is such a rare thing in the mass produced parts world.

You may see lots of parts from me on BM or ebay soon.

Frustrated........

Atlas.46

noooo!!!!

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Curious, what parts are you having issues getting? I know you said no one sells the pistons except in quantities of 4, but summit sells that part number separately.

Besides those and the rods, isn't everything else pretty much oem?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Rods

One company has a p/n for them.

When you are ready to hand over $1400 and they won't get back to you, something is wrong.

I'm just growing weary of this whole scene.....had someone who was really knowledgeable and open with passing info but he moved on. Need to find something where people want to teach others instead of holding back and/or misleading.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Before making any regrettable decisions, install both pistons and rods then check piston deck clearance. This will tell you if anything is out of spec or not and/or if it will work even if it is.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

I call the hondata! Pm me when your ready to sell

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

I'm curious, what are your power desires? Are you aiming for 700 whp or more? Those Pauter rods are nice, but boy, they are also heavy. Those have to be 1000+ hp parts.

You already have the pistons, which at initial glance should work with the stock 161.8mm rods and put you in the mid 9s, like you said.

I still think the ring lands cracked from detonation. It's definitely possible that it wasn't, and that it's only the ring gap that caused it, but knowing it wasn't tuned and you had overboosted, it's not probable that the ring gap is most likely.

I think the key to doing any setup like this, which is oft overlooked is definitely the tuning. Most people spend tons on parts - billet rods, ball bearing turbos, etc, but they don't put it into the tuning. I'd rather have a chinese turbo with good tuning than a Precision turbo on an untuned car.

Don't lose sight - perhaps just change what you're looking towards. Do you need a bottom end that can support 1000 hp? If not, why build it to? There's always the option of throwing a $400 junkyard motor in it and tuning it. I bet it lasts a good long time.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Damn I was gonna say that! I need the jumper and 08 ecu as well.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

I just want the flash pro u can still have the other 2 items.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

agreed. even when I went to King, they first said "what? a j-series??? really???????" because so few people build them out, the first words out of their mouth were "you know this won't be cheap,right?" - now factor that reality with companies that are predominately in the game of OTS parts for commonly modified vehicles and platforms, ehhhh.......they prefer known-knowns

It takes a lot of determination to take this car so far - I got maaaaad props for Gerzand, but honestly he's done a lot on his own terms and made mistakes learning the engine nuances which not everyone is willing to do.

I would be curious to what you would buy to replace your TL, though

I hate cars

Don't give up. Aren't you on the coast?

Edit- maybe that HiSpeed I was thinking about on the coast. I'll be glad to make the phone calls and pull something together.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

That's a pretty good offer.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

So if the problem with parts you ordered is the specs, have you checked the spec card to see what it says and if it matches the ACTUAL measurements? Because if they don't, then it's on them to correct the problem.

FamilyGuy

Have you tried these guys?

http://tbmotorworx.com/