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Like the topic said... Is there anywhere on here or on v6performance where either tl-s' Rl, MDX ,or bishi cams have ever been dynoed to show raw power gains?
By themselves? No. It's unfortunate because if someone were to dyno an aftermarket cam and make 15-18whp, I'm sure there would be more people buying them.
I think Locomaan has cams on his setup and made 330whp on a mustang dyno. I dont think he posted a graph though.
I doubt there would be much benefit, and possible detriment to using cams with stock precats and exhaust so I wouldn't expect a 'cam only' dyno.
In the domestic world, even a 'cam only' dyno insinuates the basics of intake and exhaust are completed. Same should go for imports. It doesn't make sense to install a cam that can pump more if you cant get the air into or out of the engine.
I think just ILC's from when he did his cams, should be in his thread which also contains his lift/duration specs towards the back or you can read the graphs and see what they were.
It doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg though, I think with what he had done and given that he had a shop do all the labor most of his cost came about from that.
I know gerzand was running stage 2 bisi's for a while, not sure if he has any dyno information from running the TL-S on stage 2 bisi cams.
I'd stick with a known profile from either bisi or tbmotorworks before going with a custom profile like ILC did, I think gerzand ran some bigger cams than the stage 2's at some point as well, I remember him selling those stage 2 bisi's in the BM.
The thing with ILC is that, if I remember correctly, he didn't just do cams, he did a bunch of work on the heads to go with it.
Yah he had the heads ported and polished, flow tested, tested some cais, had custom cam gears cut, had them install his heads/cams and tune the car also he went through a few cams trying to get the profile right and paid for a brand new head, paid for all that labor too which is crazy if you install yourself you'll save a bundle
Pretty sure it's all in his thread
In the end what was done is heads pnp/cams and tune with a bunch of testing.
I think Locomaan has cams on his setup and made 330whp on a mustang dyno. I dont think he posted a graph though.
I doubt there would be much benefit, and possible detriment to using cams with stock precats and exhaust so I wouldn't expect a 'cam only' dyno.
In the domestic world, even a 'cam only' dyno insinuates the basics of intake and exhaust are completed. Same should go for imports. It doesn't make sense to install a cam that can pump more if you cant get the air into or out of the engine.
Well i wasnt expecting a cam only dyno... Marely a dyno of somebody of the ppl in 3G acura tl history to have a dyno of cams before n after reguardless of the mods they had... I do have other mods.. Im also not stupid enough to think every car will make the exact same power regardless of mods but something to work from is nice... I do think the bishimoto cams have gains "theoretically"... But im not so sure with folks doing tlx
-s or RL cams n seeing gains.. All ive read is they are hollow and lighter... None of which i care about if it doesnt net power.. Not theoretical power... Real life power lol.. Srry ifi come off arrogant ive never been a type to mod my car in theory
In my experience, there are two heavily limiting factors for the j-series in the power production department. One of them is definitely the cams. There are several engines that use almost all the same parts (mostly the heads and bottom end) and make different level of power. Aside from exhaust and intake, the only variable in these engines is the cams. Some are in excess of 30hp. The second factor is the tune. The tunes, obviously, are based on the engines purpose and its application. An Odyssey 3.5 tune will have a much less powerful tune than say a TL-S 3.5 tune, and due to this the engines have completely different personalities and again generally run slight variances in parts...such as the cams. Realtime Racing has made 345hp off the j35z TL engine mostly with cams, tune, and slightly more compression. That's running in a limited modification class race where most parts must be factory. If they had more freedom, wonder what power levels would've been achieved?
In my experience, there are two heavily limiting factors for the j-series in the power production department. One of them is definitely the cams. There are several engines that use almost all the same parts (mostly the heads and bottom end) and make different level of power. Aside from exhaust and intake, the only variable in these engines is the cams. Some are in excess of 30hp. The second factor is the tune. The tunes, obviously, are based on the engines purpose and its application. An Odyssey 3.5 tune will have a much less powerful tune than say a TL-S 3.5 tune, and due to this the engines have completely different personalities and again generally run slight variances in parts...such as the cams. Realtime Racing has made 345hp off the j35z TL engine mostly with cams, tune, and slightly more compression. That's running in a limited modification class race where most parts must be factory. If they had more freedom, wonder what power levels would've been achieved?
Are they running that J35Z in a 2G TSX? I can't seem to find any info on it.
I wonder which heads they went with, or they must've had someone make a custom profile for their cams, I don't know of anyone making regrinds or billet cams for the J35Z3. The cam lobes and VTEC arrangement is different from that of the earlier J series engines that aftermarket cams are available for.
They also bumped compression quite a bit, remember the J35Z3 is 10:1 in factory form, 12.5:1 SCR is a 2.5 point bump in the SCR.
To the other member..
I mentioned earlier also bisi took stuff off their page, but if you contact them you can probably still get some cams through them.
I also read in the past that they do have web do their regrinds, however their profiles are different from what you would get if you went to web for a regrind.
I wonder which heads they went with, or they must've had someone make a custom profile for their cams, I don't know of anyone making regrinds or billet cams for the J35Z3. The cam lobes and VTEC arrangement is different from that of the earlier J series engines that aftermarket cams are available for.
They also bumped compression quite a bit, remember the J35Z3 is 10:1 in factory form, 12.5:1 SCR is a 2.5 point bump in the SCR.
Based of the SCCA official documents, they basically took the stock R70 castings, swapped out the stock valvetrain for j37a4 dual VTEC, ran custom ground cams from a motorcycle cam company. And contrary to what I've read in the past, the j37a4 cams are NOT pressed on lobes to a splined shaft as the j35z cams are. That means, the j37a4 cams are able to be reground to a different profile.
And yes, the CR is quite high by most peoples standards but from the 80hp gained, the increased compression contributed to roughly 20hp of that. I'm aware that's a dynamic gain but I'm giving an average. The cams may have required more compression to make the most of their profile...for example.
Send them an email or give a call I was asking them around 2-3 MO ago and they were ready to do one for me so they still can make them but you have to call
Yes WebCams does all Bisimoto regrinds. Bisimoto admitted on the phone that they never degree'd any of their regrind specs on a J-series, though.
The topic of cams gets very complicated quickly because the cam is essentially the brain of the engine. There is a lot of math that goes into how power can best be made involving fuel delivery, lift/duration, air velocity/density, timing, compression, valve dimensions, and the list goes on, ending with (arguably) the most important part of the equation which is the tune.
And even then you can't just make up some numbers and say "yup this will make this much power with this spec". That's not how it works.
Couple that with the fact that J-series is just not a household name in terms of engines that have much empirical data, and it's going to be impossible for you to really be comfortable spending a particular dollar amount on cams and having an accurate picture of what you'll get in terms of performance
There are only a handful of us that have done custom cam regrinds, and a slightly larger population that have done OTS regrinds from Bisimoto. And I don't think there's any hard info on results from a billet cam on the J-series, unless TBMotorworx had something posted that I missed.
You will find a lot of people in this community will, for some reason, claim numbers on lots of things but never post any dyno results. There is TONS of hearsay. I paid the money to have some hard numbers measured, and to this day I'm still probably the most open-book-policy person on Acurazine in regards to all the information I've provided.
But I'm just one case - my car had a specific setup, which was to take a stock J35a8 motor and port the heads, deck the heads for compression gains, cut the valves, and make a more aggressive cam profile than Stage2 bisi. I believe my results prove everything that you would need/want to know when it comes to abilities/limitations of a J35a8 with stock components being modified. .....but again that's just one type of block, with one type of head, and one type of cam. You could play with other J-series blocks, heads, cranks, etc. and come up with completely different results.
Again it all comes back to lack of empirical evidence across many applications. We just don't have it on these cars. There are some enthusiasts exploring, tinkering, doing what they can, but no one is doing engine teardowns and machining/performance engine building, 40 hours a week, 365, on J-series engines.
This isn't like a B-series where you have thousands of case studies and scenarios documented by several well-reputed, high end machine shops in the Honda community, and can empirically say yay/nay in regards to the gains you will or will not get with a particular setup.
Yes WebCams does all Bisimoto regrinds. Bisimoto admitted on the phone that they never degree'd any of their regrind specs on a J-series, though.
The topic of cams gets very complicated quickly because the cam is essentially the brain of the engine. There is a lot of math that goes into how power can best be made involving fuel delivery, lift/duration, air velocity/density, timing, compression, valve dimensions, and the list goes on, ending with (arguably) the most important part of the equation which is the tune.
And even then you can't just make up some numbers and say "yup this will make this much power with this spec". That's not how it works.
Couple that with the fact that J-series is just not a household name in terms of engines that have much empirical data, and it's going to be impossible for you to really be comfortable spending a particular dollar amount on cams and having an accurate picture of what you'll get in terms of performance
There are only a handful of us that have done custom cam regrinds, and a slightly larger population that have done OTS regrinds from Bisimoto. And I don't think there's any hard info on results from a billet cam on the J-series, unless TBMotorworx had something posted that I missed.
You will find a lot of people in this community will, for some reason, claim numbers on lots of things but never post any dyno results. There is TONS of hearsay. I paid the money to have some hard numbers measured, and to this day I'm still probably the most open-book-policy person on Acurazine in regards to all the information I've provided.
But I'm just one case - my car had a specific setup, which was to take a stock J35a8 motor and port the heads, deck the heads for compression gains, cut the valves, and make a more aggressive cam profile than Stage2 bisi. I believe my results prove everything that you would need/want to know when it comes to abilities/limitations of a J35a8 with stock components being modified. .....but again that's just one type of block, with one type of head, and one type of cam. You could play with other J-series blocks, heads, cranks, etc. and come up with completely different results.
Again it all comes back to lack of empirical evidence across many applications. We just don't have it on these cars. There are some enthusiasts exploring, tinkering, doing what they can, but no one is doing engine teardowns and machining/performance engine building, 40 hours a week, 365, on J-series engines.
This isn't like a B-series where you have thousands of case studies and scenarios documented by several well-reputed, high end machine shops in the Honda community, and can empirically say yay/nay in regards to the gains you will or will not get with a particular setup.
Yes WebCams does all Bisimoto regrinds. Bisimoto admitted on the phone that they never degree'd any of their regrind specs on a J-series, though.
The topic of cams gets very complicated quickly because the cam is essentially the brain of the engine. There is a lot of math that goes into how power can best be made involving fuel delivery, lift/duration, air velocity/density, timing, compression, valve dimensions, and the list goes on, ending with (arguably) the most important part of the equation which is the tune.
And even then you can't just make up some numbers and say "yup this will make this much power with this spec". That's not how it works.
Couple that with the fact that J-series is just not a household name in terms of engines that have much empirical data, and it's going to be impossible for you to really be comfortable spending a particular dollar amount on cams and having an accurate picture of what you'll get in terms of performance
There are only a handful of us that have done custom cam regrinds, and a slightly larger population that have done OTS regrinds from Bisimoto. And I don't think there's any hard info on results from a billet cam on the J-series, unless TBMotorworx had something posted that I missed.
You will find a lot of people in this community will, for some reason, claim numbers on lots of things but never post any dyno results. There is TONS of hearsay. I paid the money to have some hard numbers measured, and to this day I'm still probably the most open-book-policy person on Acurazine in regards to all the information I've provided.
But I'm just one case - my car had a specific setup, which was to take a stock J35a8 motor and port the heads, deck the heads for compression gains, cut the valves, and make a more aggressive cam profile than Stage2 bisi. I believe my results prove everything that you would need/want to know when it comes to abilities/limitations of a J35a8 with stock components being modified. .....but again that's just one type of block, with one type of head, and one type of cam. You could play with other J-series blocks, heads, cranks, etc. and come up with completely different results.
Again it all comes back to lack of empirical evidence across many applications. We just don't have it on these cars. There are some enthusiasts exploring, tinkering, doing what they can, but no one is doing engine teardowns and machining/performance engine building, 40 hours a week, 365, on J-series engines.
This isn't like a B-series where you have thousands of case studies and scenarios documented by several well-reputed, high end machine shops in the Honda community, and can empirically say yay/nay in regards to the gains you will or will not get with a particular setup.
While i u derstand that the J series isnt a household name and have a lot of data and as u stated there is no good way to say a cam spec will give you the absolute best gain ever in cam history for a setup.. I dont think its that critical.. Well not for me at least i think itwould be a good start to find a decent setup with the limited mods thats available.. You would think for the very few mods we have there should be a decent cam setup that gives decent gains just dropping in and even more with a tune... I just dont see what makes the J series so impossible..
Rv6.. Drop in some cams and dyno... From what paul from v6performance says.. Regrounding isnt that good for the long haul.. I think he said something about the materials used to reground wears out eventually
This winter (with any luck) i will be dynoing my car with a set of different ratio rollers. Im going to try this route with the before and after dyno the same day to see what if any can be had from this simple mod due to the limitations of cam size in the J series head.
This winter (with any luck) i will be dynoing my car with a set of different ratio rollers. Im going to try this route with the before and after dyno the same day to see what if any can be had from this simple mod due to the limitations of cam size in the J series head.
Someone makes different length rocker arms for the j series? Just changing diameter of the rollers isn't going to do diddly other than alter rocker geometry in the head the rocker arms themselves would have to be a different length which I wasn't sure old be done since they ride on a shift and you'd need longer arms to get higher lift
Rv6.. Drop in some cams and dyno... From what paul from v6performance says.. Regrounding isnt that good for the long haul.. I think he said something about the materials used to reground wears out eventually
I wouldn't trust a backyard hack who hobcobbles shit behind his garage and ruins other people's cars after promising them functional transmission swaps, and who hasn't reground Honda cams himself nor tested enough of them to really speak to the durability or lackthereof.
For what it's worth, the shop that built my motor has never had a Honda cam regrind break in the 30+ years they've been building Honda motors.
I'm currently putting my faith into Richie as I know he genuinely cares about doing it right and pushing the J-series platform forward
need new rocker ratio! That will turn all OEM option into bad ass camshafts.
Haha but it'd have to lengthen the end of the rocker towards the valve off the shaft or shorten the end towards the cam. Shorten the end towards the cam and now the roller is off center on the cam due to the fixed shaft, lengthen the other end towards the valve and the tappet goes off center on the retainer so there would be a limit either way
Just changing rollers won't do anything once they're in again and lash is set you're right back where you started with the same ratio rocker arms just altered geometry that won't net you anything
Those arms are expensive, an entire set of new oem rocker arms for all is around $1k, easier on labor to install if someone can alter the ratio for worthwhile gains without messing up vtec or throwing the tappet or roller way off and causing trouble, but I'd bet it'd be more expensive than aftermarket cams
No vtec and a different rocker arrangement in the head, there's still a limit to how far they can go with the rocker ratio most of those are probably pushrod engines that do a mod like that
When comparing as close to an apples-apples as we can get, do they even modify it? Sure, on a OHV engine it is easy. OHC is another thing. The only SOHC and DOHC motors that are really messed with are the Ford modulars. I dont have any exposure on the new Coyote 5.0, but on the 4.6 and 5.4 all I've ever seen is people swap to the Ford GT 5.4L rockers which are lighter but I thought the same ratio.
The advantages seemed to be much more popular in the SBC days when OEM components were garbage. Heck, I never did a set on my 01 Vette and it made 425RWHP with just a cam. The only thing people even really upgrade on the LS motors is the trunnion and that is more for reliability than performance. The stock LS components are 'good enough' and light enough that the cost-benefit ratio from roller rockers just isn't there. I had a set of 1.6 Comp ProMags on my LT1. It gave the cam a tad higher lift and were much stronger and lighter than the stamped OEM ones.
If I had a spare J32 head I'd like to play around with figuring out an easy way to get added lift. Curious to those that know - if the lift were increased by the cam, is the limit still from the rocker side? I'd LOVE to see a set of stock duration cams with 500 lift. These thing flow like crazy, they just aren't taken advantage of.
I'm actually really surprised none of the vendors make adjustable cam gears for the J-series. With adjustable cam gears a tuner could advance or retard the cam mechanically and change the valve opening and closing events and in effect alter the performance of the engine and probably net some power.
Would probably need to tune after messing with the cam advance/retard though.
Advancing the cam mechanically would put the intake valves closer to the piston though, so as long as it's not advanced too far to where they open into the piston then that would make the intake valves open sooner, close sooner and raised the dynamic (or corrected) compression of the engine. Retarding it would do the opposite and put the exhaust valves closer to the piston during their closing event.
Just surprised nobody has made or sells sets yet, since it'd be pretty easy to install, could net some power gains and would probably be inexpensive to make.
This winter (with any luck) i will be dynoing my car with a set of different ratio rollers. Im going to try this route with the before and after dyno the same day to see what if any can be had from this simple mod due to the limitations of cam size in the J series head.
Idk how much power that will yield but plz send me a pm when you do
Originally Posted by i_love_cars
I wouldn't trust a backyard hack who hobcobbles shit behind his garage and ruins other people's cars after promising them functional transmission swaps, and who hasn't reground Honda cams himself nor tested enough of them to really speak to the durability or lackthereof.
For what it's worth, the shop that built my motor has never had a Honda cam regrind break in the 30+ years they've been building Honda motors.
I'm currently putting my faith into Richie as I know he genuinely cares about doing it right and pushing the J-series platform forward
cams & turbohz, go !
Ive read what a little about happened with paul.. But no offense.. Hes close enough and with plenty of folks i also trust and idk what anybody else history is but whether its backyard or not that guy is still a damn J series genius... Im familiar with his work personally and through shops id almost put my word on... I dont try to get in the middle of things but that guy can still build any of my motors if need be... I know plenty ppl who have personal relationships with that guy n would vouch for him without a doubt... With that said.. I havent heard anything of issues with regrounds.. My issue with regrounds is that ive yet to see gains lol...
Here is the shot. You can see the roller on top of the cam beneath it, and how close it gets to the wall. I don't see why the wall couldn't be shaved to increase clearance. As it sits, it looks like it actually touches in this pics, super close. Ill get a better shot once the heads are apart.
Here is the shot. You can see the roller on top of the cam beneath it, and how close it gets to the wall. I don't see why the wall couldn't be shaved to increase clearance. As it sits, it looks like it actually touches in this pics, super close. Ill get a better shot once the heads are apart.
Ah, thanks for the pic. That explains a lot. One other thing - does anyone know what max lift is before coil bind, or is that even something to be concerned with?
I know duration plays a role in max lift achievable without piston contact - with stock duration, does anyone know what the max lift is before contact, in other words - minimum stock piston to valve clearance?
Ah, thanks for the pic. That explains a lot. One other thing - does anyone know what max lift is before coil bind, or is that even something to be concerned with?
I know duration plays a role in max lift achievable without piston contact - with stock duration, does anyone know what the max lift is before contact, in other words - minimum stock piston to valve clearance?
king motorsports checked it when ILC had his cams done, his SCR calculation sheet that they did up had it at:
Retainers hit valve stem seals @ .475" lift (Intake)
Retainers hit valve stem seals @ .525" lift (exhaust)
10-16-2014, 11:30 PM
