RicoTL

the car in the pic is beautiful and i wish you nothing but luck,because there isn't any thing better than a great mix of performance and luxury

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

exciting to see all those parts just sitting there. I like car parts, lol. I would be going nuts if I were you right now

Do you have a timeframe on when you'll have everything installed?

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

you of all people know the feeling haha. They are just sitting there egging me on every time I look at it all. But realistic plans are to start the break down when it gets a bit colder. I will be attending First Class Fitment by Canibeat in Princeton, NJ on Oct 19th. After that happens I should have the wideband all ready and work will commence.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

tou ce, lol

Turbocoop

iTrader: (3)

I know how it feels too, Ive had this supercharger sitting in the living room for a month, I just need a free weekend to install it... I shoulda done it last weekend but I went to a Clemson game instead haha. That turbo kit looks great, I want one sooo bad

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

Im gonna be getting a few things powdercoated but im not exactly sure on color yet. I know I want to do the valve colvers and the turbo housing. I was thinking of just doing them MRP like the car. Also wanna do the piping in gloss black to keep a stealth appearance on the kit. Got a decent amount of time until the kits ready so I will update on colors etc.

ACCURATEin

Good stuff.

eLeXkUpe

LOL....gift and a curse. My logic for staying in boost.

Beautiful car to the OP!! Best of luck with tuning and getting this turbo setup rolling. With the turbo and your current setup...your car is gonna be a monster/sleeper on the beltway.

I can't wait to see the results like everyone else. Hopefully you will have it complete by the Great Falls meet to show it off.

Great pics!

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

Just wanted to throw out a quick update.

ID1000 injectors are here, battery relocate box is ready to be installed. Just ordered a wide band/oil pressure sensors/gauges.

Also ordered the Versus front bumper, which has been shipped, to show off the intercooler a bit along with some Password JDM bumper quick release tabs for when I have to go down a ramp/driveway or drive over a twig. Dont wanna mess this bumper up at all.

I will post up some pictures here shortly when it all arrives

Ratm68

didn't know frank (hills) had a TL build there. He's our go to guy for the G(infiniti) club. Smith is my tuner as well. good people.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Where did you order the bumper from? I thought Versus stopped making them a few years go.

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

I will be dealing with Frank Smith. He just got his own shop down near Capital Raceway. Frank, my two buddies and myself will be building the car in his new shop. Afterward Frank Smith will be tuning the car as well.

I really wanted him to tune it especially because he is familiar with 6cl engines and boost on those nissan/bmw motors. They are different but similar applications, and he also knows FlashPro.

Got the bumper from eBay which was drop shipped from Versus. I got an email directly from Versus going over my order and shipping info.

Here is the email from them...

Hi,

We shipped your item today so please see below details as you need to pick up at Greyhound Terminal.

Tracking # GLI3072284974
Terminal Phone #: 1 (301) 663-3311

Pick Up Address:
MARC TRAIN STATION
100 SE ST
FREDERICK, MD 21701

(Please double check address with your local Greyhound Terminal to make sure they have not move)

Please double check we have your correct information otherwise you have to contact Greyhound in a few days to update your information as they can only update it when your item is already in your local terminal.

Damage:
Even damage rarely happen during shipment as we pack the product really well but it could happen during transit such as due to weather condition, etc.
Please check the item and open the box if you see any damage sign on the outside box. You have to file claim on the spot if you get damage product as Greyhound will not take claim after you receive and sign in good conditions. You can refuse this item if it damage and inform us within 24 business hours by replying to this email.

Please let me know if you have any further questions, thank you.
Regards,

Peter
Versus Motorsport

Brennan8

are you planning on running stock internals?

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

For the time being. Over the summer I want to break the motor into boost and see how it reacts. Once next winter comes, it will be torn down again to get new rods, pistons, and valvetrain

I hate cars

You've got some instrumentation but have you gotten the most important piece, the knock detector?

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

Hondata has a knock counter for each cylinder built into it. Would you recommend a secondary way to watch this? If so, what sensor/gauge etc would I need/you recommend?

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I don't understand how Hondata is getting knock counts for each cylinder using the stock sensor. It's centrally located so how would it identify which cylinder is knocking?

I hate cars

By using the crank sensor to know which one is firing at the time and some basic logic since preignition is slightly before the plug fires while detonation usually occurs closer to the normal combustion event. In the early days of individual cylinder knock detection some manufacturers could only get it to work on the autos, the manuals could change rpm too quickly and screw it up. Individual cylinder misfire detection seems harder to me but they got that down quickly.

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

IHC, so since Hondata has this, would I still need a way to monitor knock.

bouncer07

Just have Flashpro handle the knocks.

I hate cars

You still need something to alert you when it knocks. Once it's bad enough to hear with your ears it's too late when it's boosted.

I'm not familiar with the brands available for the TL but I've found that the visual ones don't always get your attention when you've got 500+hp and adrenaline flowing. If there's an audible one, get it. Mine is almost painful when it goes off but it will get your attention every time, to lift off the throttle.

The reason the driver needs to be alerted is the ECU can not pull enough timing or pull it quick enough to stop it once it starts when boosted. It's pretty much up to you. If you're lucky the ECU might buy you a second or two so you have time to lift.

I consider knock the most important thing to monitor because it's the only thing that can cause instant damage to the engine. We monitor AFR partially for tuning but mostly so it doesn't lean out and knock. We monitor boost so it doesn't go too high and cause knock.

If you have forged internals and you have a knock gauge, the sky is the limit. You can turn the boost up as high as you want until you see knock. Then use the other things like AFR and such to determine why it's knocking and if you can change anything or if you're octane limited at that point.

If you don't monitor knock I highly suggest a methanol kit. You won't be able to tune it to the "edge" but you'll be able to make good power that way. I recommend methanol anyway but especially if you're not monitoring knock.

You'll also be able to use a better tune with the knock detector. Instead of having to play it safe, you can lean it out during spoolup so the turbo spools quicker. You can run more boost in the lower gears and have it taper off a little in the higher gears to get it closer to the edge.

The stock TL's engine flows a TON of air. The stock heads are better than my ported aftermarket heads for my GN. If you do forged internals, lower the compression to 9:1 and there's no reason it won't make 600whp on straight 91 octane and 8-900hp on meth/race gas on stock everything else (from the throttlebody to the oil pan, stock). There's just no need to do head and intake and throttlbody work, the stock stuff is more than you would ever need. The only thing you might want to do if running lots of boost is go a little stiffer on the intake valve springs. Boost will cause valve float at a lower rpm on the intake side.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

There was a huge discussion about knock back when we were all using the FIC on stock internals. With the implementation of the MS3 and now FP, the discussion was dropped because now there is a solution that will pull timing upon detection and save your engine.

However, if as Matt says, you really want to push things to optimize performance, you'll be pushing things to the edge of knock at which point you'll be defeating that purpose by constantly pulling the timing.

A couple of options being looked at was:

http://www.phormula.co.uk/ - Phormula Knock Gauge
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/8ChInt...terceptor.html - J&S interceptor

I haven't had enough hands on time with FP to know if you can work with the knock detection but with the MS3 that was definitely possible. There are also other options with the popularity of the Pi and Arduino to create a knock detection system.

All I have done so far (on MS3) is to identify knock in the logs and see that the timing was indeed being pulled.

I hate cars

The problem is I have never seen an ECU that can pull enough timing quick enough once it starts on anything but a stock turbo car. Detonation can be stopped by pulling timing but pre-ignition can't. Preignition is hard to detect while detonation makes the traditional pinging noise around 6.4khz. While detonation will kill engines, preignition can kill it quicker. Detonation is more common and can cause preignition.

One thing most aftermarket tuners don't think about is the AFR under sustained full throttle and boost. Just about every manufacturer programs their cars to richen up after 20-30 seconds of full throttle. This is to keep the plugs cool and prevent preignition. I've watched so many videos where they do a 30-160mph run and the AFR is constant. Most thing that's the goal but it should always richen by a full point over time. I drag race and I'm going over 130mph in 9-10 seconds depending on traction. On the street there's never more than 4-5 seconds of full throttle at any given time. I can get away with a pretty lean and constant AFR. If I were to do a top speed run like that it would blow up for sure without changing the tune.

A knock sensor and EGT gauges together almost guarantee the engine will always live a long and happy life at high power. While the knock sensor has a hard time hearing preignition, EGTs will fall off instantly when it occurs. It's one of the best ways to stop preignition.

With that said, running several step colder plugs is more important than most think. You won't lose any power but you might foul them out quicker if you don't run the car hard enough often enough. Still , replacing or cleaning plugs more often is nothing compared to a new engine.

Also, stop and think about what the pinging sound actually is when caused from detonation. It's the engine resonating from the tremendous pressure spike. It's bad stuff. Now imagine preignition that can start at the end of the intake stroke, you get a spike that builds slower but almost as powerful but for a much longer duration.

Detonation tends to break stuff just as a hammer would. It puts pits in piston tops. Preignition melts stuff like pistons. It causes the crown to heat up so fast the piston tries to seize and you lose the engine very quickly with little warning. It's another reason a boosted stock internaled TL is best left for short drag racing, not top end runs.

I think I got off topic but the point is to eliminate detonation at all costs as quickly as possible and if preignition occurs as a result it probably won't stop once timing is pulled, the only solution is to lift off the throttle.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Great info. Thanks!

Tony_the_Tiger

Most guys are only thinking about the"ECU" when it comes to knock

We know there are cars that are more prone to knock then others, dynamically. Many OEM cars are programmed a certain way to combat certain characteristics. It could be a very hot style combustion chamber that offers good economy burn characteristics but detrimental to turbulent mixtures under boost. Key to lowering the chances of knock, per given horsepower or per give HP/L/turbo size/octane on this situation, is to reduce the turbulance (long length exhaust manifold, nice intake manifold, etc..)

For example, the fuel dump 20-30 secs after full throttle run that was being discussed earlier, can be solved with a different plug type and heatrange. Also simply by sending the flame front past the exhaust valve, will create post-chamber combustion which will help suck and scavenge exhaust heat out of the engine during a decel cycle. It can be witnessed by modern super cars now, with a blue flame trailing the end of a hard run at higher RPM's. Blue flame means lean burn, late burn, very little fuel.

Current technology available to OEM cars cannot cleanly determine knock at higher RPM's. Usually past 6000RPM they would begin to have trouble. We see trends like blown up Subaru STi's or new Evo X's in stock form, and these cars are our current modern turbo performance cars for standards. With these cars being 2010+ cars and host of ECU improvements year by year, they still have trouble with detonation and blown pistons at measly 130-150 BHP/L on premium fuel and low 9's compression ratios.

The Hondata cannot determine knock after it is turbocharged.. The turbo at the end of the exhaust stream as well as the back pressure of a turbo setup will change the peak combustion pressure at different engine degrees during the power cycle. The ECU will sample the "hit" at the wrong time (if the ECU has enough resolution). My guess, it is probably not fast enough to do it at a higher RPM being a 2004-2007 car.

So to keep in mind for a boosted J-series, these cars hate back pressures due to the compression ratio and a very small intake manifold. There are other methods, which you can read about on my recent turbo J35 thread. If you were to choose a turbo, let's say a Precision turbo, I would choose a 6265 rather than a 6262; or say Garrett, I would choose a GTX3576R rather than a GTX3076R, for example as a good start.

D's Up

Holy fucking list of cars in that sig batman!

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

Just arrived. Needs some attention as this thing is pretty old. Found it on eBay from a seller who said it was an overstock item. However, it was shipped directly from Versus through Greyhound which was the odd part. Oh well, not sure why they had it, but I found it thankfully.

Some of the edges are slightly marked up, there is raw primer that needs some sanding, and will need some sort of strengthening behind the bumper because it is fiberglass and I dont want to ruin it with the slightest bump. I will be laying metal rods behind it and fiberglassing over it. Front grill and side wing/built in splitters will be painted Crystal Black Pearl to match the roof and roof spoiler.

Eventually I would like to build some fog lights in the two smaller side openings. But goal is to have this and turbo on and tuned by April to be at Honda Day in NJ.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Sorry IHC, felt compelled to add to your already great advice on this matter. Hope you don't mind....or argue against me.

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

I have been debating on whether or not to get the AEM Tru Boost unit as well. I really like the features it comes with and how it has the failsafe built in. I currently have a HKS EVC-S boost controller which is a very nice unit, however it seems very complicated. I am looking for something nice and uniform for my build and really like how the AEM boost gauge is circular and digital along with their other wideband gauge/sensor and oil pressure gauge/sensor. I think these three paired would look great and be clean.

The HKS unit is a square and thin which is also paired with a seperate square thin HKS matching turbo timer. They mount together and form one combined piece. I just am having a tough time debating where to mount this because of its size and shape. I will most likely be selling this and going with the AEM unit.

I would like some feedback from people about these units and opinions.

AEM Tru Boost
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AEM-TRU-BOOST-ELECTRONIC-GAUGE-TYPE-CONTROLLER-30-4350-/271258767158?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f28484f36&vxp=mtr
OR

HKS EVC-S
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HKS-EVC-S-Electronic-Boost-Controller-EBC-45003-AK009-/291057878632?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c466c668&vxp=mtr

Atlas.46

wait... do you plan on showing or racing at Honda Day Atco?

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

Just plan on showing at Honda Day, Build will be very fresh and I will most likely wait until a cool summer night once I learn the car and start driving it to do a 1/4 mile pass. Plus gonna need some sticky tires

I hate cars

Sorry I didn't see this sooner. Great advice! I agree with reading the plugs when new right after boost. It's a lost art now, it seems like. I like to have checks and balances and reading the plugs is a great way to see what's actually going on in the combustion chamber as well as comparing what you see to your average AFR under boost.

With the wideband you're talking about that will automatically richen it up to protect the motor, that's an awesome setup and I think it definitely moves it's importance up a few notches. Between that and the knock control, you've got an extremely safe setup that you can put an agressive tune on yet it's still safe. It doesn't tell you if there's knock going on but it will help prevent it from starting.

I usually don't care about EGT. I don't use it for tuning much, in fact, the car doesn't have an EGT readout right now. The only thing I like it for is detecting preignition which the knock sensor has a very hard time picking up. You know if you're under boost and EGTs are in the 1,600-1,800F range and they suddenly drop to 600F, the car is experiencing silent preignition and it's time to lift. If I had my way, I would have it alarm if the EGTs go too low, not too high.

That was my only point really, I just wanted to clarify on the EGT that I don't use it for tuning, just for detection of pre-ignition that doesn't get picked up by the ECU. Since I never really make a full 1/4 run on the street and you figure 5 seconds of full throttle is around 100mph I don't really have to worry about pre-ignition because I'm never in the throttle long enough but some of these videos I've seen of a stock internaled TL doing a 30-160mph run could really use some EGT feedback.

There's usually a lot of hp left on the table in a boosted tune in the name of safety. Having active knock and AFR control will really allow you to run a meaner tune without hurting the engine.

Keep up the great info, I always like reading your posts and if you prove me wrong about something, that means I've learned something new which is never a bad thing.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Likewise brother.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Seems as though I should give the ms3 another go. I have an IACV that I could plumb in to try and get the idle under control and purchase the onboard knock detection board.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

I'm going to respond to this based off of what others say (majority rules) about MS in general and also what I've read through my own research/interest on their products.

MS is typically reckoned as a "beginners" style engine management system that possesses a simplistic approach to its purpose. It also uses (relatively speaking) less technology in doing so which IMO means less air fuel/timing accuracy. I'm not saying that its not able to do the job but when there's other systems out there with more technology and better internals, why not invest into something better? I've read many more bad reviews than I have good.

Is there a specific reason why you've chosen MS for engine management?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I have one from the times when I understood nothing. I am better educated now but not on what is superior.

What do you suggest?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

This all depends. There are many factors that become involved when choosing a reliable, effective, and cost effecient (sometimes) controller. Firstly, If I remember correctly you were a 6mt, right? Also, what's your budget look like? You say you've gained more knowledge, what would you say your knowledge is on a scale of 1-10?...10 being highest. Are you running any form of FI or NO2? If so, do you have any aftermarket safety/monitoring systems for the setup or are you wanting a controller with safety integration...or at least have the ability to expand if unsure/future possibility? Are you able to tune (maybe even confident in your knowledge on self tuning) or would you require the help of an experienced tuner?

Without knowing any of these questions, any answer I gave would be misleading and unhelpful to you.

Pinhook

interesting read

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

So happy Valentines Day to myself... bought the Snow Performance Stage 3 MPG MAX Methanol kit yesterday. Figured there was no point in tuning the car without meth, saving up and buying it in a month or two after then paying to retune it using meth so I just bought the day kit to do this build right the first time.

I have been thinking of adding an AEM Meth inline filter to this as well incase there is any debris in the mixture it will get caught. Also been thinking of adding a larger reservoir in the rear. It is only a 3 quart tank which I dont think will last me a long time. Dont want to forget about it and not refill and mess everything up.

Heres a few pics of it.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

I could have given you a list to get all those parts nearly 60% below what you paid for the kit. Kit suppliers are nothing more than product relabelers that buy cheap individually and sell as one.

At least you have one now though man. This is good to see.