Oil Consumption Theory
05-28-2015, 06:41 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Oil Consumption Theory
I finally contacted my dealer regarding what I consider (maybe not Honda) excessive oil consumption. Just burned a quart in only 2000 miles or so. The dealer recommended this, just curious what anyone's opinion is on this, since I haven't heard/read much of this before:
-They did an engine treatment to remove carbon deposits. They drain the oil, add oil with a special additive, run the engine for X number of minutes, drain oil, add regular oil with a different additive that stays in the next oil change cycle. This apparently removes carbon deposits. The technician said there are tiny veins in the cylinder walls that can sometimes get clogged with carbon. Not sure how this causes oil to burn, unless the carbon messes up the piston rings?
-Honda sent a memo to dealers a while back saying to use 0W-20 in the 3.7L AWD model now, even though the manual specifically states 5W-20 for the AWD model's 3.7L. This is true even going back several years to older models. Mine is a 2012. I've always changed my own oil and used 5W-20 per the manual, using Mobil 1 full synthetic as preference.
-They started a consumption test so I need to stop by every 1000 miles for a bit.
My thoughts are one, that the engine treatment can't hurt and wasn't terribly expensive, and two, that 0W-20 is even lighter and would burn more easily but they said the thinner oil gets in those veins more easily. He also said burning oil has been an issue in many high compression engines across the industry, so carbon deposits need to be cleaned more regularly. I recently read an article where direct injection engines are having even more trouble with this, so maybe we're lucky.
Just wanted to pass all this on. Again, not sure how successful or accurate all this is, but I'll report back after the first 1000 miles to see if the treatment and or 0W-20 has helped.
-They did an engine treatment to remove carbon deposits. They drain the oil, add oil with a special additive, run the engine for X number of minutes, drain oil, add regular oil with a different additive that stays in the next oil change cycle. This apparently removes carbon deposits. The technician said there are tiny veins in the cylinder walls that can sometimes get clogged with carbon. Not sure how this causes oil to burn, unless the carbon messes up the piston rings?
-Honda sent a memo to dealers a while back saying to use 0W-20 in the 3.7L AWD model now, even though the manual specifically states 5W-20 for the AWD model's 3.7L. This is true even going back several years to older models. Mine is a 2012. I've always changed my own oil and used 5W-20 per the manual, using Mobil 1 full synthetic as preference.
-They started a consumption test so I need to stop by every 1000 miles for a bit.
My thoughts are one, that the engine treatment can't hurt and wasn't terribly expensive, and two, that 0W-20 is even lighter and would burn more easily but they said the thinner oil gets in those veins more easily. He also said burning oil has been an issue in many high compression engines across the industry, so carbon deposits need to be cleaned more regularly. I recently read an article where direct injection engines are having even more trouble with this, so maybe we're lucky.
Just wanted to pass all this on. Again, not sure how successful or accurate all this is, but I'll report back after the first 1000 miles to see if the treatment and or 0W-20 has helped.
05-28-2015, 08:39 PM
#3
"they said the thinner oil gets in those veins more easily"
A 0W-20 grade oil is not thinner than a 5W-20 oil. They both have the same thickness at operating temperature. The 0W-20 simply does not get as thick on cooling as the 5W-20. Both are still way to thick to lubricate an engine at startup.
Remember that most engine wear occurs at startup when the oil is too thick to lubricate properly. It cannot flow and therefore cannot lubricate. Most of the thick oil at startup actually goes through the bypass valve back to the engine oil sump and not into your engine oil ways.
A 0W-20 grade oil is not thinner than a 5W-20 oil. They both have the same thickness at operating temperature. The 0W-20 simply does not get as thick on cooling as the 5W-20. Both are still way to thick to lubricate an engine at startup.
Remember that most engine wear occurs at startup when the oil is too thick to lubricate properly. It cannot flow and therefore cannot lubricate. Most of the thick oil at startup actually goes through the bypass valve back to the engine oil sump and not into your engine oil ways.
05-29-2015, 08:03 AM
#4
Instructor
Thread Starter
^Good info to have. Growing up, my Dad always said the W stood for winter, but I never realized when the different weights came into play. Makes sense what you say. Thanks.
05-29-2015, 01:22 PM
#6
Instructor
Thread Starter
Oh okay, sorry, I guess I haven't been as active on here in a few months, unless this is even older news. I just hadn't come across it in other oil threads. I was keeping up on it a few months ago. I looked up ringland in general and see what you mean though. I wish the dealer would have brought this up.
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05-29-2015, 07:45 PM
#8
05-29-2015, 09:01 PM
#9
Instructor
this week I received a letter from Acura Canada on second gen tsx oil consumption it extended the warranty due to this. So how come Acura's not taking oil consumption on the TL as a design issue and needs replacement.
05-31-2015, 08:48 AM
#10
10th Gear
I just started my consumption test at the dealer for my 13' 6-speed manual. They changed the oil. They told me they use a synthetic blend oil. I've tried synthetic and 5w-30 but the consumption is always the same. We will see what they come up after 1K miles but from my 30K miles of driving and changing the oil it is about .8 quarts/1000 miles and the dealer will not do any work on the engine unless you burn more than 1 quart per 1000 miles. This in reality means that it has to be significantly above a quart a 1000 miles as the dipstick is subjective to who is looking at it and who knows with how much you started off with anyway
06-02-2015, 07:41 AM
#11
They will after most of the original owners trade them in. That way they don't have to actually fix any issues on their own dime.
06-02-2015, 07:43 AM
#12
I just started my consumption test at the dealer for my 13' 6-speed manual. They changed the oil. They told me they use a synthetic blend oil. I've tried synthetic and 5w-30 but the consumption is always the same. We will see what they come up after 1K miles but from my 30K miles of driving and changing the oil it is about .8 quarts/1000 miles and the dealer will not do any work on the engine unless you burn more than 1 quart per 1000 miles. This in reality means that it has to be significantly above a quart a 1000 miles as the dipstick is subjective to who is looking at it and who knows with how much you started off with anyway
06-02-2015, 11:12 AM
#13
^^^^^
Which oil are you using?
Which oil are you using?
06-02-2015, 11:23 AM
#14
Team Owner
I just started my consumption test at the dealer for my 13' 6-speed manual. They changed the oil. They told me they use a synthetic blend oil. I've tried synthetic and 5w-30 but the consumption is always the same. We will see what they come up after 1K miles but from my 30K miles of driving and changing the oil it is about .8 quarts/1000 miles and the dealer will not do any work on the engine unless you burn more than 1 quart per 1000 miles. This in reality means that it has to be significantly above a quart a 1000 miles as the dipstick is subjective to who is looking at it and who knows with how much you started off with anyway
Granted it's a pain in the ass and a bit shady, but at this point the it's fighting fire with fire. You guys clearly have an engine flaw that Honda does not want to acknowledge.
Also, isn't it highly risky to be driving the car with 1 quart less of oil? I mean, at that point you'd be at or below the minimum fill line. So Honda essentially expects you to sacrifice your engine before they acknowledge a repair is required. Good on them!
06-02-2015, 12:00 PM
#15
Former Sponsor
1 quart per 2,000 miles is pretty significant for a car with only 77,000 miles on it. Honda may be trying to put a bandaid where surgery is needed.
06-02-2015, 07:36 PM
#16
06-02-2015, 09:33 PM
#17
^^^^^^
Castrol synthetic 0W-20? How many miles do you have?
Castrol synthetic 0W-20? How many miles do you have?
06-03-2015, 10:44 AM
#18
06-03-2015, 11:28 AM
#19
^^^^^^
When are you measuring the dipstick, in the morning when the engine is cold or just after driving (like 20 minutes or more)? (Engine warm)
When are you measuring the dipstick, in the morning when the engine is cold or just after driving (like 20 minutes or more)? (Engine warm)
06-03-2015, 01:19 PM
#20
06-04-2015, 11:23 AM
#21
^^^^^^
You don't consume much, nevertheless, I would try 5W-20 Mobil 1 High Mileage (Full Synthetic) plus Mobil 1 Filter and change the oil at 3000 - 3500 miles for a couple of times; see how this goes.
Btw. No problem with using Mobil 1 High Mileage on 30.000 miles, you can use this oil all the time no matter how many miles 5.000 or 100.000. The higher Zinc & Phosphorus really helps.
In case you have a problem with piston rings, nothing will help other than repair. I doubt you have this kind of problems. Good luck and keep us posted.
You don't consume much, nevertheless, I would try 5W-20 Mobil 1 High Mileage (Full Synthetic) plus Mobil 1 Filter and change the oil at 3000 - 3500 miles for a couple of times; see how this goes.
Btw. No problem with using Mobil 1 High Mileage on 30.000 miles, you can use this oil all the time no matter how many miles 5.000 or 100.000. The higher Zinc & Phosphorus really helps.
In case you have a problem with piston rings, nothing will help other than repair. I doubt you have this kind of problems. Good luck and keep us posted.
06-04-2015, 05:57 PM
#22
^^^^^^
You don't consume much, nevertheless, I would try 5W-20 Mobil 1 High Mileage (Full Synthetic) plus Mobil 1 Filter and change the oil at 3000 - 3500 miles for a couple of times; see how this goes.
Btw. No problem with using Mobil 1 High Mileage on 30.000 miles, you can use this oil all the time no matter how many miles 5.000 or 100.000. The higher Zinc & Phosphorus really helps.
In case you have a problem with piston rings, nothing will help other than repair. I doubt you have this kind of problems. Good luck and keep us posted.
You don't consume much, nevertheless, I would try 5W-20 Mobil 1 High Mileage (Full Synthetic) plus Mobil 1 Filter and change the oil at 3000 - 3500 miles for a couple of times; see how this goes.
Btw. No problem with using Mobil 1 High Mileage on 30.000 miles, you can use this oil all the time no matter how many miles 5.000 or 100.000. The higher Zinc & Phosphorus really helps.
In case you have a problem with piston rings, nothing will help other than repair. I doubt you have this kind of problems. Good luck and keep us posted.
06-09-2015, 08:45 PM
#26
Drifting
Good luck with that VW! The last one I drove (rental) had an interesting "feature" - everytime you turned on the A/C, the radio and gas gauge would stop working. The gas gauge stopped coming back after awhile.
06-10-2015, 01:42 PM
#28
2G TLX-S
VW reliability continues to stay poor when compared to the more premium Audi brand, let alone the top Japanese makes such as Honda and Toyota.
06-11-2015, 11:00 AM
#29
eh. I know friends with a total of 6 VAG products from 2011+. All have been solid. No warranty work and no issues. Just maintenance so far.
06-12-2015, 08:55 AM
#32
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thought this was an interesting article:
Car Talk: Acura offers new engine for oil burner | The Columbus Dispatch
I go in today for the first 1,000 mile check. We'll see.
Car Talk: Acura offers new engine for oil burner | The Columbus Dispatch
I go in today for the first 1,000 mile check. We'll see.
06-22-2015, 07:42 AM
#33
Intermediate
I've noticed a few things since my short block was replaced a few weeks ago.
1. The transmission seem tighter than before
2. No oil consumption (of course)
3. The tail pipe of my car does not have the soot build up that it used to have. This is something that really stood out to me since I would perform a maintenance wash on the car almost every weekend and clean the chrome tips (quad pipes really look great when clean). But they would only stay clean for @ 3 days. It's been almost two weeks since I cleaned the pipes and they look just a clean as the first day I cleaned them. I guess the burning of the oil contributed to the soot build up.
1. The transmission seem tighter than before
2. No oil consumption (of course)
3. The tail pipe of my car does not have the soot build up that it used to have. This is something that really stood out to me since I would perform a maintenance wash on the car almost every weekend and clean the chrome tips (quad pipes really look great when clean). But they would only stay clean for @ 3 days. It's been almost two weeks since I cleaned the pipes and they look just a clean as the first day I cleaned them. I guess the burning of the oil contributed to the soot build up.
06-22-2015, 10:44 AM
#34
Instructor
I've noticed a few things since my short block was replaced a few weeks ago.
1. The transmission seem tighter than before
2. No oil consumption (of course)
3. The tail pipe of my car does not have the soot build up that it used to have. This is something that really stood out to me since I would perform a maintenance wash on the car almost every weekend and clean the chrome tips (quad pipes really look great when clean). But they would only stay clean for @ 3 days. It's been almost two weeks since I cleaned the pipes and they look just a clean as the first day I cleaned them. I guess the burning of the oil contributed to the soot build up.
1. The transmission seem tighter than before
2. No oil consumption (of course)
3. The tail pipe of my car does not have the soot build up that it used to have. This is something that really stood out to me since I would perform a maintenance wash on the car almost every weekend and clean the chrome tips (quad pipes really look great when clean). But they would only stay clean for @ 3 days. It's been almost two weeks since I cleaned the pipes and they look just a clean as the first day I cleaned them. I guess the burning of the oil contributed to the soot build up.
was your replaced under warranty? what was your consumption before.
06-22-2015, 02:13 PM
#35
Just an update on mine. My oil was changed about 3500 miles ago. I usually change it every 4.5k or so. No real consumption until 2500+ miles. Yesterday I was halfway down the hash marks so I added a little over a 1/4 quart of oil and I'm back up to the top. This was a check and add within 5 minutes of pulling in the garage after 25 minutes on the road.
This is pretty typical with each oil change. I'm at 31k miles.
This is pretty typical with each oil change. I'm at 31k miles.
06-22-2015, 06:22 PM
#36
Intermediate
Yes, it was replaced under warranty. I performed the consumption test with my dealership and the car would use so much oil that it was not visible on the dipstick after 2000 miles. I'm not certain how much oil that is but it appears to be alot. I have 63K miles on the car and I purchased it certified 6 months ago.
06-23-2015, 03:17 PM
#37
Instructor
Today I took my car in for the B16 service. This includes an oil change. My car has almost 9K miles on it since the last oil change. Ever since reading the posts about the AWD cars using more oil I have been checking it regularly. Twice I have had to add oil, once at 5K miles after the last oil change and once a few thousand miles later. It was down about 1/4 on the dipstick this morning - warm engine.
I asked the service writer if he was aware of these cars "using" more oil than a normal car. I told him I have never owned a car where I had to check the oil between oil changes. He told me this is because of how many miles I have driven since my last oil change. He told me I should never go so far between changes and should be changing it every 3500 to 5K miles.... I said - what? The other service writers at this same dealership have told me to follow the MID and not to bring it in before the car says to bring it in. He told me that is incorrect information and that I should not wait that long to bring it in. 5K is about the max I should go without an oil change... I explained to him that I have 73K miles and twice I brought it in before the MID told me to and twice the service writers told me it was too soon... He disagreed and said the MID is not there to tell you when to bring it in for service but only to tell you if you forgot and went too long without a change...
I found this info very interesting and very contradictory to comments on this site as well as the cars manual if I recall correctly...
Also, they gave me a TLX for a loaner car. I kind of like it, but not nearly the car my SH-AWD is... reminds me of a TSX or Honda.
I asked the service writer if he was aware of these cars "using" more oil than a normal car. I told him I have never owned a car where I had to check the oil between oil changes. He told me this is because of how many miles I have driven since my last oil change. He told me I should never go so far between changes and should be changing it every 3500 to 5K miles.... I said - what? The other service writers at this same dealership have told me to follow the MID and not to bring it in before the car says to bring it in. He told me that is incorrect information and that I should not wait that long to bring it in. 5K is about the max I should go without an oil change... I explained to him that I have 73K miles and twice I brought it in before the MID told me to and twice the service writers told me it was too soon... He disagreed and said the MID is not there to tell you when to bring it in for service but only to tell you if you forgot and went too long without a change...
I found this info very interesting and very contradictory to comments on this site as well as the cars manual if I recall correctly...
Also, they gave me a TLX for a loaner car. I kind of like it, but not nearly the car my SH-AWD is... reminds me of a TSX or Honda.
06-23-2015, 05:12 PM
#38
Senior Moderator
Today I took my car in for the B16 service. This includes an oil change. My car has almost 9K miles on it since the last oil change. Ever since reading the posts about the AWD cars using more oil I have been checking it regularly. Twice I have had to add oil, once at 5K miles after the last oil change and once a few thousand miles later. It was down about 1/4 on the dipstick this morning - warm engine.
I asked the service writer if he was aware of these cars "using" more oil than a normal car. I told him I have never owned a car where I had to check the oil between oil changes. He told me this is because of how many miles I have driven since my last oil change. He told me I should never go so far between changes and should be changing it every 3500 to 5K miles.... I said - what? The other service writers at this same dealership have told me to follow the MID and not to bring it in before the car says to bring it in. He told me that is incorrect information and that I should not wait that long to bring it in. 5K is about the max I should go without an oil change... I explained to him that I have 73K miles and twice I brought it in before the MID told me to and twice the service writers told me it was too soon... He disagreed and said the MID is not there to tell you when to bring it in for service but only to tell you if you forgot and went too long without a change...
I found this info very interesting and very contradictory to comments on this site as well as the cars manual if I recall correctly...
Also, they gave me a TLX for a loaner car. I kind of like it, but not nearly the car my SH-AWD is... reminds me of a TSX or Honda.
I asked the service writer if he was aware of these cars "using" more oil than a normal car. I told him I have never owned a car where I had to check the oil between oil changes. He told me this is because of how many miles I have driven since my last oil change. He told me I should never go so far between changes and should be changing it every 3500 to 5K miles.... I said - what? The other service writers at this same dealership have told me to follow the MID and not to bring it in before the car says to bring it in. He told me that is incorrect information and that I should not wait that long to bring it in. 5K is about the max I should go without an oil change... I explained to him that I have 73K miles and twice I brought it in before the MID told me to and twice the service writers told me it was too soon... He disagreed and said the MID is not there to tell you when to bring it in for service but only to tell you if you forgot and went too long without a change...
I found this info very interesting and very contradictory to comments on this site as well as the cars manual if I recall correctly...
Also, they gave me a TLX for a loaner car. I kind of like it, but not nearly the car my SH-AWD is... reminds me of a TSX or Honda.
That service writer is full of BS. You should follow the minder like your owners manual states. The SH-AWD cars do have a problem with oil consumption and the service writer is trying to deflect away from that answer. Go straight to the service manager next time.
I wonder if changing out the PCV with a new one and adding in an oil catch can might help... anyone want to try? I know a lot of folks were catching a lot of oil with the K2X motors.
06-23-2015, 06:35 PM
#39
Instructor
^^ - Thanks - I would call the TLX an upgrade from a TSX not a combo, but I didn't drive the v6 or AWD version so it is hard to really compare.
I will be checking my oil consumption when I get gas from here on out. Based on my experience, I don't expect to see much consumption but enough to have oil handy and the need to check. I will also follow the 5K mile recommendation not the MID. I think that is just put on there so Acura can try to be like Mercedes. Anyone that thinks the MID is anything more than just a counter I believe is mistaken, it is just calculating the use based on driving habits and miles not how much oil is in the engine or if any is consumed...
I will be checking my oil consumption when I get gas from here on out. Based on my experience, I don't expect to see much consumption but enough to have oil handy and the need to check. I will also follow the 5K mile recommendation not the MID. I think that is just put on there so Acura can try to be like Mercedes. Anyone that thinks the MID is anything more than just a counter I believe is mistaken, it is just calculating the use based on driving habits and miles not how much oil is in the engine or if any is consumed...
06-23-2015, 06:40 PM
#40
Senior Moderator
^^ - Thanks - I would call the TLX an upgrade from a TSX not a combo, but I didn't drive the v6 or AWD version so it is hard to really compare.
I will be checking my oil consumption when I get gas from here on out. Based on my experience, I don't expect to see much consumption but enough to have oil handy and the need to check. I will also follow the 5K mile recommendation not the MID. I think that is just put on there so Acura can try to be like Mercedes. Anyone that thinks the MID is anything more than just a counter I believe is mistaken, it is just calculating the use based on driving habits and miles not how much oil is in the engine or if any is consumed...
I will be checking my oil consumption when I get gas from here on out. Based on my experience, I don't expect to see much consumption but enough to have oil handy and the need to check. I will also follow the 5K mile recommendation not the MID. I think that is just put on there so Acura can try to be like Mercedes. Anyone that thinks the MID is anything more than just a counter I believe is mistaken, it is just calculating the use based on driving habits and miles not how much oil is in the engine or if any is consumed...
The 5K oil change interval is something that will help the issue but it isn't a solution. Acura needs to step up and realize that 1 quart or more per 1K miles is not acceptable.