omgitsspooky

This article made me think about looking for a FWD model instead of the SH-AWD since the main purpose for me is to drive safer in inclement weather.

What are your thoughts on it?

All Wheel Drive Does Not Make You Safer

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

Known fact that the biggest determining factor besides common sense for winter driving is having a solid set of winter tires regardless of drive train. That said, the combination of SH-AWD & winter tires will by far surpass the performance of RWD or FWD with winter tires.

types1fan

Completely agree that AWD is not safer but with it comes better traction, better tires on either FWD or AWD will make for better traction, I had a 09 FWD for 3 years and it was decent and drove well in the snow, I've had my 12 AWD for 3 years and theirs no comparison in driving dynamics in the snow compared to a FWD.

Marmbo

"Drive Safer" is the key. Using AWD to push you through a corner faster isn't really safer but it sure as hell is fun. Maybe if I was stuck on a railway crossing in the snow and the FWD is just spinning, AWD would be safer to get you off the tracks but as far a every day safety goes I wouldn't say one is safer than the other generally. Proper tires can help you turn to avoid things and stop faster in good or inclement weather. I say proper because what is good in the summer isn't always good in the winter or if there's a huge downpour of rain, etc.

wreak

I didn't read the article but it's a known fact that AWD can give drivers false confidence during winter driving. Sure you have better traction for steering and moving from a stop but AWD does nothing to stop your car more quickly. I think the best combination is having AWD, good tires, and a good sense of your cars limits and braking ability.

andysinnh

I've driven for over 4 decades here in NH, and had all sorts of RWD, FWD, AWD and 4WD vehicles. And I'd fully agree that tires make all the difference in the world. With the right tires, I could make a RWD 82 Chevy Camaro Z28 get through places you wouldn't believe. And then the add-on of ABS, TC and DSC help add to that traction on FWD vehicles these days.

However...

I have NEVER driven a vehicle as stable in every condition during the winter as my wife's '12 TL SH-AWD. She teaches at a district that's in a very rural area, and aside from twisty hills and valleys, her school is at the top of a hill where you need to start from a stop to get up the hill. Her car - outfitted with a set of Nokian Hakka R snow tires on 17" wheels - will not spin the tires. Ever. And it stops on a dime. Always. And while the car's stance and tires have a lot to do with it - it's the SH-AWD that does the duty. If you watch the display while driving in the winter, you can see the vehicle constantly moving traction to the various wheels - but you can't ever feel it lose traction or even spin the tires. It is by far the most amazing vehicle I've driven in the winter. Only if it had an extra few inches of ground clearance :-)

So - bottom line - tires do make a lot of the difference. But on a 4th gen TL - it's also the SH-AWD.

andy

YeuEmMaiMai

if the tires are equal on all cars it goes like this

Full Time AWD (Subaru for example)>Slip and Grip AWD (CR-V) FWD>RWD

I drive both a Subaru and CL-S and There is a reason the CL-S sits in the garage in the winter time.....

The weight distribution on the Subaru is nearly perfect and it does not dive nearly as much as the CL-S does. This helps in not overloading the front tires when stopping in a hurry if needed.

The BIG plus to AWD is when you are at a stop and you want to get going... and yes that is an advantage.

In order of importance

1. Driver skill
2. Tires
3. Driveline abilities

flunder

There is another important factor to the safety factor when 2 vehicles are involved - Mass. Do not drive TL for inclement weather, it is a light car with very low ground clearance. The best bet is stud snow tire or snow chain (low speed limited though) on 4WD on a large, heavy truck with high ground clearance and independent locking differentials. Remember to have winch, deadman anchor, extra fuel, emergency food and blanket.

If the main concern is plowed roads, then the best investment will be snow tires, provided that you do religious seasonal change at around 45F. Get dedicated wheels and you will need to get extra TPMS.

Edward'TLS

I don't know if AWD makes you safer or not.

But what I DO know is that "AWD with winter tires" will let me go any place in the winter days, when even "FWD with winter tires" can't.

"AWD with winter tires" is virtually invincible in snow/ice as long as the vehicle ground clearance will allow.

Reorge

This article is written by someone that for some reason hates AWD or perhaps ... he's just an idiot. All else being equal, AWD DOES make a car "safer". It DOES NOT make it safe, but it does make it safer. I agree that safe driving and better tires far exceed the benefits of AWD. I also agree that a driver might push the car beyond it's limits more often in an AWD vs FWD, but to attack the technology just doesn't make sense. That's like saying an airplane with an ejection seat is not safer.

Oh and he stated he using simple physics, so he MUST be right. Having a car that gets better traction is marketing BS.

mylove4cars

In the snow, let’s hop on one leg then two legs. Wow my dog on 4 legs is hard to beat.
Torque is much better controlled over 4 surfaces. The basic approach still stands in todays enhanced AWD vehicles; electronics have helped tremendously to improve various AWD systems even more.

jpsaab24

I love that a Mr. Money Mustache article was brought up in a luxury car forum. I'll admit I am a huge fan of his writing style and find his articles motivating. That being said, I'm not giving up my Acura so I can bike everyday to work and the grocery store... (oh and live off 18k a year). I currently have a FWD with Michelin Pilot Super Sports and they have made a world of difference in cornering, acceleration, and braking. I still yearn for the SH-AWD, but AWD with cruddy all seasons doesn't do a whole lot for me.

sympley

holy cow, someone hates AWD. Sorry but my TL is my first AWD car and it is superior to all my previous cars with or without snow tires.

TheMuffinMan

iTrader: (1)

LOL, are you fucking kidding me?

My family *easily* filled a Pilot with vacation gear and that's for a family of 5. A CRV? Maybe if your family is 2 people...

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

^^^

Has beyond extreme money surplus /rolls eyes

flunder

Seriously though, I am not sure why the comparison is made among FWD and AWD. As stated, I also believe in the tires, hence, I have an AWD with a set of summer tires and a set of winter tires. One can go extreme and argue that all season is a compromise and not safe...

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

That article is not to be taken seriously considering what the author thinks is excess or the fake science.

TheMuffinMan

iTrader: (1)

Lol, I know right?

SilverJ

If you can afford AWD, its worth it. Bottom line. If you cant afford it, at least get good tires. Above all though. don't try to drive your car in the snow like Vin F'in Diesel in Fast and the Furious and you will be fine with or without AWD. Drive like Morgan Freeman in driving Miss Daisy and you won't have any issues in bad weather.

DoubleF

Based on my experience with my TL...

- The AWD feature (assuming tires are equal) is especially noticeable in winter icy slippery conditions (especially stop lights where someone may have done everyone a favor by putting their foot to the floor and polishing the ice with their bald tires). I've noticed I get stuck considerably less than the FWD full sized sedan I used to drive. That being said, when you can count on one hand how often you get stuck a year in winter conditions, that's not saying a whole lot difference.

- AWD with poor tires is bad. But so is any other drive train. Many all seasons supposedly don't perform great past 7 Celsius. Not -7C (20F), +7C. A set of cheapo winters is better than trying to run all seasons in many instances based purely on this. Plus, since they aren't used often during the year, better tread further helps in terms of performance.

https://www.kaltire.com/all-weather-...-winter-tires/
Maybe it's a marketing scheme, but if indeed many all season tires suck at temperatures lower than 7C/45F, that should be a huge eye opener for many to lean towards winter tires.

- ANY car regardless of drive train (AWD, FWD, RWD) can be wrapped around a pole. This means as others have already noted, that driver skill and decision making is the most important aspect of winter driving. Tail gating and excessive speed isn't advised. That being said many cities often have roads dry during the winter months after shoveling away the snow and salting the road. Keep that in mind too. No need to drive below speed limit in those instances.

- Having AWD or a SUV doesn't mean you're invincible. Having these doesn't mean you can drive over a snow bank and expect to plow though it with no consequences. Again, please refer to the driver skill and decision making comment. Based on the same thought process, if I am not mistaken, there are more fatal accidents in summer months than winter months. More people driving crazy because they feel invincible. Poor decision making means bad things.

- Having AWD means you are less likely to get stuck, but the above point still stands. You cannot randomly decide you are going to drive over a snow bank unscathed. 20 feet area with a foot of snow, where a snow skirt has failed or snow has accumulated due to wind? Maybe. Depends if it's powder or wet snow.

Performance can be a double edged sword. You can use it to blast around corners going way too fast, or you can use it to have a stable winter/inclement weather drive. If we're talking mostly rain only, I doubt you can get into any hairy situations in any drive train unless your tires are bad.

As for AWD vs FWD? You don't "need" AWD. I love AWD because it is more convenient and fun for me. Some feel AWD is a crutch that can be used in lieu of proper driving technique and tires. That is a bad way of thinking.

If you want safer driving in inclement weather, IMO I suggest a winter driving course. Best money you'll spend on driving, hands down. Tires are next, then the clearance height on the vehicle before finally perhaps drive train.

Drei

iTrader: (2)

"Mr Money Mustache" wrote that article to make himself better about owning a Scion xA...not saying there's anything bad about owning a Scion!

Anyway, all of us who have done our research regarding SH-AWD know it vastly improves handling as opposed to FWD

That article bears nothing worthwhile; just a well written opinion

docboy

This article reaks of cheapness and excessive frugality (which there is nothing wrong with). But this mustache guy tries to pass off that anything other than the bare minimum is un-necessary and extravagant.

It's ok for him to enjoy his Scion and Prius, but don't mock those who enjoy life and enjoy driving vehicles better than a cheap Toyota appliance. '

All credibility has been lost.

ej6sliver

I never had the sh awd, but I had awd in general before.
I had so much more confidence driving thru in the snow than fwd/rwd.

I wish I waited for a good deal on a sh awd instead of fwd.
I trust my dad and my 8 years of awd experience

23109VC

the Acura SH-AWD has nothign to do with safety in my opinion.. it's a performance option. when you go into a corner and mash the gas, you tear through it, while the guy with FWD understeers and slides off the road....

do you care about handling and performance. if so, get AWD, if not, get FWD.

BDoggPrelude

If we are talking about snow traction, I'd take a FWD TL with winter tires over an SH-AWD TL with all-season tires any day. That said, don't kid yourself about the advantages of the AWD TL vs the FWD TL. Given the same tires, the SH-AWD TL will outperform the FWD model in rain, snow or shine. We have both a FWD TL, albeit a 3G, and an AWD TL. Both have similar winter and summer wheel and tire setups. Our SH-AWD is FAR superior to our FWD TL when it comes to traction in ANY situation.

Booya4139

Agreed, but that isn't the point of the article. Its that the #1 critical factor is snow/ice drivability is traction, which is ultimately the tires.

Before my TL i drove a FWD car with an LSD, and with blizzaks it was great in the snow... Always got me from point A to B without any craziness as long as I was being conscientious. Same with the FWD TL with blizzaks. It handled Boston's ridiculous winter last year with flying colors. Never an issue.

I think we all agree FWD w Snows > AWD w AS tires... That is basically the point. And if you are going to invest in a spare dedicated winter setup, you don't need to bother with upgrading from FWD to AWD as you shouldn't really have any issues.

AWD certainly provides benefits, while it has some costs. ($, gas) how you value the cost/benefit is certainly preference.

Booya4139

I don't think this is true. Most people driving these family sedans never take it to the limit where it frankly makes a difference. The driving experience of a TL with tech either FWD or AWD in the vast majority of situations is fairly identical. its not a difference between a fine car and a 'cheap toyota appliance'

cars are purpose built and understanding your needs and the tradeoffs allows an informed and efficient decision. I'd call that being smart

Jensenajj

AWD only helps while you are accelerating. That's it.

If your focus is driving in winter, the TL has some pretty great features, including a really smart VSC and probably MOST importantly Anti-lock brakes. Throw on a good pair of tires and cautious driving and you will never be able to justify the spend (and the 10% MPG penalty) on AWD.

** My favorite winter/snow driving trip: "You can brake, accelerate, and turn - but only do 1 at a time! And slowly!"

AWD will definitely help you when accelerating away from a stop, and help prevent you from getting stuck, but those aren't typically the things that cause you to crash.

Why do I have SH-AWD? Reason #1, i wanted the manual transmission. Reason #2 I like to be able to floor it and turn hard when i want. SH-AWD really shines under those conditions - truly awesome.

My advice: Buy what you want, buy something you won't regret. But don't buy AWD because you think it's a magic force field that will keep you safe in snow. If you heart is set on AWD, buy it an don't look back or you will spend every mile regretting not doing what you really wanted.

Booya4139

Agree with all of this... If i had it to do over again I'd have got the AWD, but because of the MT... miss it really bad.

Jensenajj

I actually grumble at myself every time I fill up the tank for not choosing FWD and getting 4-5mpg better, but I would have been even more irritated by wishing I had a manual transmission every time I got in the car.

emanon256

I'm surprised no one has mentioned recovering from a skid. On snow and ice it is much easier to skid. Recovering in RWD is very hard, recovering with FWD is not as hard, and IME with AWD is even easier than with FWD. I think that is a pretty important factor in safety. Of course, you still have to drive safely and in the unlikely event of a skid, you have to know the type of skid and how to recover, but with AWD the chances of recovery are a little better.

That said, I agree that tires are a major factor. My S2K with RWD and good snow tires did better at climbing a snowy hill than my 1G TL with FWD and All Seasons. However with my SH-AWD climbing the same hill is even easier and I only have the stock all-seasons, so I personally think AWD beats FWD and RWD.

For me the AWD helps with climbing icy/snowy hills and starting from a stop in ice and snow, as well as recovery like I mentioned. I am not going to become a shut in like Mr. Money Mustache and avoid driving in the snow. I find the AWD is a huge benefit for driving in poor road conditions.

I do agree that many people get over confident with AWD and think it will help them stop when it absolutely will not. In fact, I think people need to be more cautious with AWD as they can get into situation where it is easier to skid and harder to stop.

While I used to have summer and winter tires, I no longer do. I agree that it is ideal, but I don't have the space to store them anymore, nor the time to keep swapping them out. We can get snow and ice in September/October followed by 2-3 months of dry weather, then snow and ice, in Feb/March, then sunshine and dry roads in April and of snow and ice in May. I now just settle for all-seasons and drive in poor conditions with caution knowing my AWD will help me keep going.

CruzanTLSH-AWD

IDK what some of you all saying on here. Tires do play a big factor tho and the way you drive. I was station in Alaska 3 Yrs (Fairbanks) and had a GS-R Integra with Kuhmo AST. I never end up in a ditch or skidded out. Even when it's -40. I had a stick all I did was pull out in 3rd or sometimes 4th gear if I'm at a stop light or sign. I have a SH-AWD and bought Snow tires and I can't lie I drive with hella more confidence even when the black ice shows up every now and then. Drove to Detroit and back to Toronto in the snow in late Jan was its nice riding thur like a snow plow.

csmeance

AWD is only beneficial in conditions where tires loose grip such as Snow, heavy rain, extreme g forces, etc.

A good tire can only do so much on a FWD or RWD car. Put those same tires on the AWD and you'll notice a much more stable car in the above mentioned conditions.

Drive a FWD RDX though a FL rainstorm with tons of standing water. Drive an SH-AWD RDX on through the same storm.
The SH-AWD will feel a bit more confident. It won't be slipping/skidding, VSA will barely activate, etc. The FWD will have VSA kicking in more often and you will be traveling naturally slower since you feel less confident in the car.

I was able to drive the MDX though heavy rains (40+MPH winds, etc) at 70MPH in an emergency for upwards of an hour to get medication for a person who was in distress, had I had another car without SH-AWD, I'm sure that the person would have not made it as the nearest hospital/24 hr pharmacy was 80 miles away.

Long story short, Tires cannot make up for AWD in certain conditions and AWD cannot make up for tires in certain conditions.

If you have garbage tires on your car, you shouldn't be driving.

Anicra

To me there is no comparison FWD and AWD in winter. I will always have AWD for winter. Though I cycle rims and snow tires every late fall for both cars. When the weather becomes extremely bad I always have my wife take the AWD (plus I have alot of extras in that car- snowchains, jumper pack, cables and other uncommon stuff)

I had a 85 RX7 gslse I bought some of the first Blizzaks and I did more damage to the car plowing thru the snow in that. When I gave it to my brother for a rebuild project. I had to park in small town in SD, I drove thru plowed snowbanks just to the storage garage and some extremely deep snow. Snow tires are just automatic when you want to keep your loved ones safe.

YeuEmMaiMai

exactly...

jterp7

heavy snow or rain is where clearance starts to become an issue, which is where the mdx's will hold a huge advantage over TL's..assuming equivalent tires of course. The other thing is that the shawd in acuras is torque vectoring. It's not simply adding a new set of drive wheels. I think if the fwd had the torque vectoring in only the front wheels that would be more than enough for most people...but that's not the case.

YeuEmMaiMai

^ a simple LSD would suffice in a FWD car for traction purposes