2009 Acura Tl vs. 2009 BMW 335xi
11-17-2008, 02:20 PM
#321
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I sell Mercedes for a living and all 2009 models except for the CLK and the SLR have high definition radio.
A power rear sunshade... the cheapest C Class had those 5 years ago...
The Legend has options in Japan which are not offered in the States such as a front bumper corner camera, for example.
Luxury is not a quantifiable thing... it is cumulative. For example, you look at all the options you could have (but may not want to pay for) and conclude there is luxury. I may not ever use a LSD or drive 186 MPH but nice to know I could use them if I wanted.
On the BMW 5 Series you can have visual parking sensors (quite nice) as well as a head's up display.
BMW and Mercedes also offer diesels as an option... Acura does not. Again, I think luxury is about offering options.
People choose the BMW 3 Series all the time even though it has a small back seat, is more expensive, etc.
A power rear sunshade... the cheapest C Class had those 5 years ago...
The Legend has options in Japan which are not offered in the States such as a front bumper corner camera, for example.
Luxury is not a quantifiable thing... it is cumulative. For example, you look at all the options you could have (but may not want to pay for) and conclude there is luxury. I may not ever use a LSD or drive 186 MPH but nice to know I could use them if I wanted.
On the BMW 5 Series you can have visual parking sensors (quite nice) as well as a head's up display.
BMW and Mercedes also offer diesels as an option... Acura does not. Again, I think luxury is about offering options.
People choose the BMW 3 Series all the time even though it has a small back seat, is more expensive, etc.
11-17-2008, 02:39 PM
#322
AZ Community Team
Gee, we're shocked by that revelation 
A luxury car to myself (and probaby others) is the premium experience of the driving itself not the number of option groups. How you feel driving the car, the responsiveness, the great sound systems, taking a turn, how the wood and leather look and feel, how quiet and smooth the ride is on a rough road. The amount of options is not something I hear people tell me they are looking for in a car, it's the car itself.
A friend's mother-in-law was shocked when a few years ago she ordered her MB S500 to discover that HID's were a option. She was not amused by the fact that her daughter's GM SUV (which was under $30K) came with HID's as standard equipment. So no, to many of us we expect our cars to be fully equiped and not having to order such things as HID's.
A luxury car to myself (and probaby others) is the premium experience of the driving itself not the number of option groups. How you feel driving the car, the responsiveness, the great sound systems, taking a turn, how the wood and leather look and feel, how quiet and smooth the ride is on a rough road. The amount of options is not something I hear people tell me they are looking for in a car, it's the car itself.
A friend's mother-in-law was shocked when a few years ago she ordered her MB S500 to discover that HID's were a option. She was not amused by the fact that her daughter's GM SUV (which was under $30K) came with HID's as standard equipment. So no, to many of us we expect our cars to be fully equiped and not having to order such things as HID's.
11-17-2008, 02:47 PM
#323
AZ Community Team
I was curious, HID's are still optional on a current E350!
You have to get Option Group 2 to get bi-xenon. Halogen lights are the standard.
Must get back on topic, must get back on topic,.....
You have to get Option Group 2 to get bi-xenon. Halogen lights are the standard.
Must get back on topic, must get back on topic,.....
11-17-2008, 03:23 PM
#324
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A downside of luxury is that you pay more for stuff! I personally think certain things should be standard but people I deal with don't mind so I don't mind!
If Acura made Xenon headlights optional I could only image the screaming!
A luxury car is many things, of course, but a great many options are part of it... what color wood interior, illuminated door sills, 10 different kinds of wheels, etc...
As for the S Class... the S500 had Xenons but she must have had the S430 or S350 (V6) which offered them only as an option.
If Acura made Xenon headlights optional I could only image the screaming!
A luxury car is many things, of course, but a great many options are part of it... what color wood interior, illuminated door sills, 10 different kinds of wheels, etc...
As for the S Class... the S500 had Xenons but she must have had the S430 or S350 (V6) which offered them only as an option.
Last edited by CL6; 11-17-2008 at 03:28 PM.
11-17-2008, 03:55 PM
#325
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* Something that is an indulgence rather than a necessity
* Lavishness: the quality possessed by something that is excessively expensive
* Wealth as evidenced by sumptuous living
* Very wealthy comfortable surroundings
* Something desirable but expensive
* Something very pleasant but not really needed in life.
* Very expensive
* Something lavish
* Something superfluous
* Something inessential but conducive to pleasure and comfort.
* Something expensive or hard to obtain.
* Sumptuous living or surroundings
No where will you find the convoluted definition you just dreamed up.
It would be interesting to run this test. Put 100 Acura & Mercedes Benz cars in a field. Randomly select 100 people & tell them they can keep the car they select.
Wonder what would be left in the field?
11-17-2008, 04:49 PM
#326
I realize you are trying real hard to make the Acura a luxury brand by changing the definition of the word "luxury", but to just keep things in perspective here are the Dictionary definitions of the word Luxury
* Something that is an indulgence rather than a necessity
* Lavishness: the quality possessed by something that is excessively expensive
* Wealth as evidenced by sumptuous living
* Very wealthy comfortable surroundings
* Something desirable but expensive
* Something very pleasant but not really needed in life.
* Very expensive
* Something lavish
* Something superfluous
* Something inessential but conducive to pleasure and comfort.
* Something expensive or hard to obtain.
* Sumptuous living or surroundings
No where will you find the convoluted definition you just dreamed up.
It would be interesting to run this test. Put 100 Acura & Mercedes Benz cars in a field. Randomly select 100 people & tell them they can keep the car they select.
Wonder what would be left in the field?
* Something that is an indulgence rather than a necessity
* Lavishness: the quality possessed by something that is excessively expensive
* Wealth as evidenced by sumptuous living
* Very wealthy comfortable surroundings
* Something desirable but expensive
* Something very pleasant but not really needed in life.
* Very expensive
* Something lavish
* Something superfluous
* Something inessential but conducive to pleasure and comfort.
* Something expensive or hard to obtain.
* Sumptuous living or surroundings
No where will you find the convoluted definition you just dreamed up.
It would be interesting to run this test. Put 100 Acura & Mercedes Benz cars in a field. Randomly select 100 people & tell them they can keep the car they select.
Wonder what would be left in the field?
Acura is for those who understand the luxury not some brand name with every thing as an option. u can see that from Edmunds TL vs G37 road test where TL has lower noise levels at 70mph cruise. RL goes much beyond that. that is called measurement of luxury. That much quietness is not necessary for for 4WD car but it is desirable. I have no desire for without Standard GPS car even if it is S Class. Difficult to handle in narrow streets.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...nd-407314.html
Road Test: Honda Legend
Honda's latest executive car has a staggering array of safety gadgets. From the anti-slide system to the world's first automatic brakes, John Simister feels impregnable
So, with this new and technically remarkable Legend, Honda isn't even going to try to curry corporate-buyer favour. Instead, it gently ridicules the status-affirmation of the BMW 5-series-driving "corporate conformist" and seeks to engage the "respected individualist", who is more likely to own a business than merely execute in one.
This last-October car is a Japanese-market version of the new Legend, so its suspension is soft and pillowy. And it's making for a wholly surreal driving experience. This car with all the floppiness of a superannuated New York taxi is holding the road and attacking the corners like a Subaru Impreza Turbo. The body is floating, but always in the right direction. I've never driven a car with a personality more fundamentally split.
The secret is what happens at or near the rear axle. There's no rear differential as such, but instead each rear halfshaft has an electromagnetic clutch. If one slips slightly, more torque is transferred to the opposite wheel. If both slip, more torque finds its way to the front wheels. The amount of slippage is controlled by computer, but there's a further ingredient to SH-AWD: the speed multiplier, a device that allows a difference between front and rear axle speeds.
This unit lets the rear wheels turn at up to 1.05 times the front wheels' speed. This seems insignificant, but it's enough to ensure the rear wheels are always able to transmit torque when needed, which is most of the time. It also allows for the fact that in fast cornering, the rear wheels scribe a course of larger radius than the front wheels, and so travel further.
What this system does is unique. And one of its merits is that if it detects the beginnings of a tailslide, it doesn't brake a wheel to put the Legend back on course, but instead accelerates the diagonally opposite one. The only other car able to do this is the Ferrari F430 with its rear electronic differential, but that of course doesn't combine it with four-wheel drive.
.
Road Test: Honda Legend
Honda's latest executive car has a staggering array of safety gadgets. From the anti-slide system to the world's first automatic brakes, John Simister feels impregnable
So, with this new and technically remarkable Legend, Honda isn't even going to try to curry corporate-buyer favour. Instead, it gently ridicules the status-affirmation of the BMW 5-series-driving "corporate conformist" and seeks to engage the "respected individualist", who is more likely to own a business than merely execute in one.
This last-October car is a Japanese-market version of the new Legend, so its suspension is soft and pillowy. And it's making for a wholly surreal driving experience. This car with all the floppiness of a superannuated New York taxi is holding the road and attacking the corners like a Subaru Impreza Turbo. The body is floating, but always in the right direction. I've never driven a car with a personality more fundamentally split.
The secret is what happens at or near the rear axle. There's no rear differential as such, but instead each rear halfshaft has an electromagnetic clutch. If one slips slightly, more torque is transferred to the opposite wheel. If both slip, more torque finds its way to the front wheels. The amount of slippage is controlled by computer, but there's a further ingredient to SH-AWD: the speed multiplier, a device that allows a difference between front and rear axle speeds.
This unit lets the rear wheels turn at up to 1.05 times the front wheels' speed. This seems insignificant, but it's enough to ensure the rear wheels are always able to transmit torque when needed, which is most of the time. It also allows for the fact that in fast cornering, the rear wheels scribe a course of larger radius than the front wheels, and so travel further.
What this system does is unique. And one of its merits is that if it detects the beginnings of a tailslide, it doesn't brake a wheel to put the Legend back on course, but instead accelerates the diagonally opposite one. The only other car able to do this is the Ferrari F430 with its rear electronic differential, but that of course doesn't combine it with four-wheel drive.
.
11-17-2008, 06:10 PM
#327
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Looking at how far Acura sales have dropped I'd have to conclude there are not many people who understand what Acura is anymore then.
2006 was the first year Acura broke 200,000 in sales... they'll be lucky if they break 150,000 this year.
I've sold cars for over 5 years and I've never had anybody say: "Hey this car is quieter at 70 MPH than the BMW 3 Series I drove last week!"
I did have many people during the 4 years I worked for Acura ask me what is the difference between a TL and an Accord, however.
Navi is standard on S and CL Class.
2006 was the first year Acura broke 200,000 in sales... they'll be lucky if they break 150,000 this year.
I've sold cars for over 5 years and I've never had anybody say: "Hey this car is quieter at 70 MPH than the BMW 3 Series I drove last week!"
I did have many people during the 4 years I worked for Acura ask me what is the difference between a TL and an Accord, however.
Navi is standard on S and CL Class.
U can pretty much drive from point A to Point B in econobox BMW 3 or C class with nothing to offer in base models.
Acura is for those who understand the luxury not some brand name with every thing as an option. u can see that from Edmunds TL vs G37 road test where TL has lower noise levels at 70mph cruise. RL goes much beyond that. that is called measurement of luxury. That much quietness is not necessary for for 4WD car but it is desirable. I have no desire for without Standard GPS car even if it is S Class. Difficult to handle in narrow streets.
Acura is for those who understand the luxury not some brand name with every thing as an option. u can see that from Edmunds TL vs G37 road test where TL has lower noise levels at 70mph cruise. RL goes much beyond that. that is called measurement of luxury. That much quietness is not necessary for for 4WD car but it is desirable. I have no desire for without Standard GPS car even if it is S Class. Difficult to handle in narrow streets.
Last edited by CL6; 11-17-2008 at 06:12 PM.
11-17-2008, 06:26 PM
#328
Looking at how far Acura sales have dropped I'd have to conclude there are not many people who understand what Acura is anymore then.
2006 was the first year Acura broke 200,000 in sales... they'll be lucky if they break 150,000 this year.
I've sold cars for over 5 years and I've never had anybody say: "Hey this car is quieter at 70 MPH than the BMW 3 Series I drove last week!"
I did have many people during the 4 years I worked for Acura ask me what is the difference between a TL and an Accord, however.
Navi is standard on S and CL Class.
2006 was the first year Acura broke 200,000 in sales... they'll be lucky if they break 150,000 this year.
I've sold cars for over 5 years and I've never had anybody say: "Hey this car is quieter at 70 MPH than the BMW 3 Series I drove last week!"
I did have many people during the 4 years I worked for Acura ask me what is the difference between a TL and an Accord, however.
Navi is standard on S and CL Class.
TL has more upscale interior with more agressive style than Accord. that alone defines it as more luxrious. Price difference between TL and EX-L V-6 is not that great either. So if some one spent on TL they still get value from Money.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/thepress/4051164a21495.html
While British road tests of the new Legend are sniffily positive about the Honda – in a Basil Fawlty, don't mention the war sort of way – the American magazines are less reticent about calling a spade a shovel and have almost without exception rated the Legend's new all-wheel-drive chassis as the industry's leader, even in such August German company.
Having driven the Legend on billiard-table smooth test courses, I can report that at ridiculously high speeds in perfect race-track conditions, the Honda is one of the most forgiving sports luxury sedans in the world, with a sense of balance and control, thanks to its naffly-named super handling all-wheel drive system that would help it show a clean pair of mudflaps to any sedan in its capacity bracket.
That is despite having just five automatic speeds to its competitors' six and seven ratios, and a much more achievable price tag.
While British road tests of the new Legend are sniffily positive about the Honda – in a Basil Fawlty, don't mention the war sort of way – the American magazines are less reticent about calling a spade a shovel and have almost without exception rated the Legend's new all-wheel-drive chassis as the industry's leader, even in such August German company.
Having driven the Legend on billiard-table smooth test courses, I can report that at ridiculously high speeds in perfect race-track conditions, the Honda is one of the most forgiving sports luxury sedans in the world, with a sense of balance and control, thanks to its naffly-named super handling all-wheel drive system that would help it show a clean pair of mudflaps to any sedan in its capacity bracket.
That is despite having just five automatic speeds to its competitors' six and seven ratios, and a much more achievable price tag.
11-17-2008, 06:38 PM
#329
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Acura brand was made for US before Lexus was, actually. The ES has always been a re-branded Camry like the TSX is a re-branded Euro Accord... no difference there!
My point was not that there are differences between the Accord and the TL it was that people did not see the differences and had to ask. Nobody does that with the Camry and the ES because when they said they were looking at the ES and I told them it was a Camry they were shocked.
My point was not that there are differences between the Accord and the TL it was that people did not see the differences and had to ask. Nobody does that with the Camry and the ES because when they said they were looking at the ES and I told them it was a Camry they were shocked.
Sells will drop at Lexus despite offering 10 cars vs 5 for Acura. And u have to understand Lexus was brand exclusivelly started for US. Two of the cars Acura RL and Acura TSX is rebadged Hondas which already existed.
TL has more upscale interior with more agressive style than Accord. that alone defines it as more luxrious. Price difference between TL and EX-L V-6 is not that great either. So if some one spent on TL they still get value from Money.
TL has more upscale interior with more agressive style than Accord. that alone defines it as more luxrious. Price difference between TL and EX-L V-6 is not that great either. So if some one spent on TL they still get value from Money.
11-17-2008, 06:49 PM
#330
Drifting
A downside to many "luxury" brands is that you have to visit your service department every couple of months to get things fixed (or NOT fixed, as a matter of fact!) LOL I guess at least they have a nice waiting area so you don't get too mad... LOL
P.S. Many people got the 3 series simply because it got such cheap lease rates going before... otherwise, they could never afford to really buy a 3 series. Anyway, with the BMW lease rates going up, I guess that would really hurt the sales of the 3 series.
P.S. Many people got the 3 series simply because it got such cheap lease rates going before... otherwise, they could never afford to really buy a 3 series. Anyway, with the BMW lease rates going up, I guess that would really hurt the sales of the 3 series.
11-17-2008, 08:07 PM
#331
So meaning of luxury for Honda is bit different. While Camry and ES does not look alike except for underneath or engines. Camry does not have higher content than ES-300.
My point was not that there are differences between the Accord and the TL it was that people did not see the differences and had to ask. Nobody does that with the Camry and the ES because when they said they were looking at the ES and I told them it was a Camry they were shocked.
11-17-2008, 08:40 PM
#332
Not an Ashtray
Just a anecdotal point on my personal experience with Honda reliability.
My son-in-laws Honda V6 EX barfed up its automatic transmission at about 60K miles.
My '06 TL in addition to normal maintenance has had its left rear tail light assembly replaced after 3 weeks, third gear in the 6MT replaced, power steering hose replaced & wiper motor replaced all under warranty or recall. Leather on the front seats will be replaced & the DVD player is starting to skip.
My BMW 330 6MT convert has just under 60,000 miles with only normal maintenance, My 98 Ranger 4X4 is 10 years old with only normal maintenance, The Expedition 4X4 is to new to matter but the 02 Explorer 4X4 that I traded in on it had 120K+ miles with only normal maintenance.
Your milage may vary.
My son-in-laws Honda V6 EX barfed up its automatic transmission at about 60K miles.
My '06 TL in addition to normal maintenance has had its left rear tail light assembly replaced after 3 weeks, third gear in the 6MT replaced, power steering hose replaced & wiper motor replaced all under warranty or recall. Leather on the front seats will be replaced & the DVD player is starting to skip.
My BMW 330 6MT convert has just under 60,000 miles with only normal maintenance, My 98 Ranger 4X4 is 10 years old with only normal maintenance, The Expedition 4X4 is to new to matter but the 02 Explorer 4X4 that I traded in on it had 120K+ miles with only normal maintenance.
Your milage may vary.
HVAC completely dead at 70,000 miles. Entire system had to be replaced.
HVAC at 82,000 miles making the same odd noises it did before dying last time.
Sensor malfunction in the VSA system. Lights on dash spontaneously come on. Dealer still had not tracked the problem.
Dome light had a short and had to be rewired.
Lights on radio/nav console went dead. Entire unit had to be replaced.
Headlights developed condensation. As part of a recall, Acura added clips to keep covers tight and lock out moisture.
Speakers developed a buzzing sound. Doors had to be lined with foam by the dealer (again, part of a TSB).
Power lock switch died and had to be replaced.
OEM tires had two blowouts within in a year. Replaced aftermarket, and never had a single problem again.
Brakes had multiple incidents of warping.
Discolorations on the hood of the car. Acura had to repaint the entire front end.
"TSX" decale spontaneously fell off the rear end of the car.
The TSX has been the least reliable car I've ever owned. I still love it - but you will have a hard time convincing me that Acura is a lot more reliable than BMW or other upscale makes.
More balanced - sure. More reliable - no.
11-17-2008, 08:41 PM
#333
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U can pretty much drive from point A to Point B in econobox BMW 3 or C class with nothing to offer in base models.
Acura is for those who understand the luxury not some brand name with every thing as an option. u can see that from Edmunds TL vs G37 road test where TL has lower noise levels at 70mph cruise. RL goes much beyond that. that is called measurement of luxury. That much quietness is not necessary for for 4WD car but it is desirable. I have no desire for without Standard GPS car even if it is S Class. Difficult to handle in narrow streets.
Acura is for those who understand the luxury not some brand name with every thing as an option. u can see that from Edmunds TL vs G37 road test where TL has lower noise levels at 70mph cruise. RL goes much beyond that. that is called measurement of luxury. That much quietness is not necessary for for 4WD car but it is desirable. I have no desire for without Standard GPS car even if it is S Class. Difficult to handle in narrow streets.
11-17-2008, 08:52 PM
#334
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11-17-2008, 08:55 PM
#336
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11-17-2008, 08:56 PM
#337
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Wow you still don't understand my point! Ah I'll try again...
I did not say there was no difference between an Accord and a TL what I said is many, many customers do not understand the difference between an Accord and a TL. Got that? I never ran into this confusion when people were considering an ES and a Camry. The point..? It seems as though the general car buying public does not understand what makes an Acura a luxury car.
Now as to your point about resale I have no idea where you are getting your facts. The RL has about the same resale value as a dumpster because Acura only sells about 260 per month nationwide. The TL has had a lot of transmission issues (as has the MDX) which has hurt resale value and the CL was dropped and has horrible resale value.
And resale value and luxury have nothing to do with one another generally. Fact is, a luxury brand will depreciate much faster than any other type of car because they are generally leased as opposed to purchased so when they are turned in the dealerships buy them very cheaply from the leasing company and resale them for less.
The buying habits of luxury vs. non-luxury consumers are entirely different... that is why one is a luxury car and the other is not.
I think the issue you are having with this discussion is that you will not accept that generally Acura is not considered to be a true luxury brand but, rather, the seller of expensive Hondas.
I did not say there was no difference between an Accord and a TL what I said is many, many customers do not understand the difference between an Accord and a TL. Got that? I never ran into this confusion when people were considering an ES and a Camry. The point..? It seems as though the general car buying public does not understand what makes an Acura a luxury car.
Now as to your point about resale I have no idea where you are getting your facts. The RL has about the same resale value as a dumpster because Acura only sells about 260 per month nationwide. The TL has had a lot of transmission issues (as has the MDX) which has hurt resale value and the CL was dropped and has horrible resale value.
And resale value and luxury have nothing to do with one another generally. Fact is, a luxury brand will depreciate much faster than any other type of car because they are generally leased as opposed to purchased so when they are turned in the dealerships buy them very cheaply from the leasing company and resale them for less.
The buying habits of luxury vs. non-luxury consumers are entirely different... that is why one is a luxury car and the other is not.
I think the issue you are having with this discussion is that you will not accept that generally Acura is not considered to be a true luxury brand but, rather, the seller of expensive Hondas.
Acura TSX/RL are rebadged Hondas except for grill. Infact the Honda versions have higher content than Acura counterparts. Euroluxury accord comes with headlight washer and 18' rims along with other electronics.
So meaning of luxury for Honda is bit different. While Camry and ES does not look alike except for underneath or engines. Camry does not have higher content than ES-300.
So if there was no difference between TL and Accord than why people pay premium for TL in used car market. Infact u can buy Two ES-330 04 for the price of 1 TL 04. Thats called the real meaning of luxury brand. TSX has higher resale value than IS. RL has better depreciation than LS/GS. I can buy 05 LS for similar price as 05 RL. Lexus/BMW/MB does not have that luxury touch of Acura.
So meaning of luxury for Honda is bit different. While Camry and ES does not look alike except for underneath or engines. Camry does not have higher content than ES-300.
So if there was no difference between TL and Accord than why people pay premium for TL in used car market. Infact u can buy Two ES-330 04 for the price of 1 TL 04. Thats called the real meaning of luxury brand. TSX has higher resale value than IS. RL has better depreciation than LS/GS. I can buy 05 LS for similar price as 05 RL. Lexus/BMW/MB does not have that luxury touch of Acura.
Last edited by CL6; 11-17-2008 at 08:59 PM.
11-17-2008, 09:05 PM
#338
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BTW I was out today in my TL & was reminded of another thing my Ford truck & BMW have that the Acura does not.
When it starts to get dark the lights turn on.
When it starts to get dark the lights turn on.
11-17-2008, 09:26 PM
#340
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wow...so many posts....
lol..did someone mention LSD as an option that the RL doesn't have?? From my understanding SH-AWD doesn't need LSD....why would you need a passive device when you have an active device that so many luxury brands are copying (ie BMW's DPC and Audi's Sport Differential)?
lol..did someone mention LSD as an option that the RL doesn't have?? From my understanding SH-AWD doesn't need LSD....why would you need a passive device when you have an active device that so many luxury brands are copying (ie BMW's DPC and Audi's Sport Differential)?
11-17-2008, 10:43 PM
#342
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Can't remember the last car I had to do that on before the TL...but it was long ago & far far away.
11-17-2008, 11:47 PM
#344
Wow you still don't understand my point! Ah I'll try again...
I did not say there was no difference between an Accord and a TL what I said is many, many customers do not understand the difference between an Accord and a TL. Got that? I never ran into this confusion when people were considering an ES and a Camry. The point..? It seems as though the general car buying public does not understand what makes an Acura a luxury car.
I did not say there was no difference between an Accord and a TL what I said is many, many customers do not understand the difference between an Accord and a TL. Got that? I never ran into this confusion when people were considering an ES and a Camry. The point..? It seems as though the general car buying public does not understand what makes an Acura a luxury car.
In public perception bankrupt brands like Jaquar/Rollsroyce/Bentley/Astonmartin/RangeRover/Volvo/Saab/Infiniti(It was French who rescued it with design/money/tech) are luxury but Honda is not who has vast resources that obectively makes a difference in every day driving for comfort/refinement/style/telematics. French cars will not sell here but German are acceptable as luxury.
Now as to your point about resale I have no idea where you are getting your facts. The RL has about the same resale value as a dumpster because Acura only sells about 260 per month nationwide. The TL has had a lot of transmission issues (as has the MDX) which has hurt resale value and the CL was dropped and has horrible resale value.
And resale value and luxury have nothing to do with one another generally. Fact is, a luxury brand will depreciate much faster than any other type of car because they are generally leased as opposed to purchased so when they are turned in the dealerships buy them very cheaply from the leasing company and resale them for less.
The buying habits of luxury vs. non-luxury consumers are entirely different... that is why one is a luxury car and the other is not.
I think the issue you are having with this discussion is that you will not accept that generally Acura is not considered to be a true luxury brand but, rather, the seller of expensive Hondas.
The buying habits of luxury vs. non-luxury consumers are entirely different... that is why one is a luxury car and the other is not.
I think the issue you are having with this discussion is that you will not accept that generally Acura is not considered to be a true luxury brand but, rather, the seller of expensive Hondas.
11-18-2008, 12:24 AM
#345
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If you look at the sales numbers of Acura over the last 2 years vs. BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus I think you'll find that the consumer disagrees with your lofty hypothesis.
And Acuras are not leased the same way as the other brands. The money factors are much higher, the marketing support is much, much less (if at all), and the ability to make payments on someone's current lease to get them into a new vehicle don't really exist.
With some Mercedes I have up to $10,000.00 and up to 5 payments I can use. For a while I even had $$ from the factory if I got someone to switch from another brand to Mercedes (Acura was added a few months into the program).
And Aston, Bentley, Rolls are doing quite well for themselves, BTW.
It's too bad you're not as informed as some of the magazines you cited.
And Acuras are not leased the same way as the other brands. The money factors are much higher, the marketing support is much, much less (if at all), and the ability to make payments on someone's current lease to get them into a new vehicle don't really exist.
With some Mercedes I have up to $10,000.00 and up to 5 payments I can use. For a while I even had $$ from the factory if I got someone to switch from another brand to Mercedes (Acura was added a few months into the program).
And Aston, Bentley, Rolls are doing quite well for themselves, BTW.
It's too bad you're not as informed as some of the magazines you cited.
u cannot based ur opinion on uninformed public perception. They dont know and not even understand the meaning of luxury and style. thats why i gave links to professional magazines from Australasia to Europe.
In public perception bankrupt brands like Jaquar/Rollsroyce/Bentley/Astonmartin/RangeRover/Volvo/Saab/Infiniti(It was French who rescued it with design/money/tech) are luxury but Honda is not who has vast resources that obectively makes a difference in every day driving for comfort/refinement/style/telematics. French cars will not sell here but German are acceptable as luxury.
RL is fine for AWD system and not many people understand for buying it. They will buy bland E350 or A6/GS/5 Series but not RL.
Acuras are also leased the same way as other luxury brand. And Acura has the most limited lineup. despite this it is righter there with Audi/infiniti Sells. BMW/MB/Lexus offer far more offerings.
In public perception bankrupt brands like Jaquar/Rollsroyce/Bentley/Astonmartin/RangeRover/Volvo/Saab/Infiniti(It was French who rescued it with design/money/tech) are luxury but Honda is not who has vast resources that obectively makes a difference in every day driving for comfort/refinement/style/telematics. French cars will not sell here but German are acceptable as luxury.
RL is fine for AWD system and not many people understand for buying it. They will buy bland E350 or A6/GS/5 Series but not RL.
Acuras are also leased the same way as other luxury brand. And Acura has the most limited lineup. despite this it is righter there with Audi/infiniti Sells. BMW/MB/Lexus offer far more offerings.
11-18-2008, 11:56 AM
#346
And Acuras are not leased the same way as the other brands. The money factors are much higher, the marketing support is much, much less (if at all), and the ability to make payments on someone's current lease to get them into a new vehicle don't really exist.
With some Mercedes I have up to $10,000.00 and up to 5 payments I can use. For a while I even had $$ from the factory if I got someone to switch from another brand to Mercedes (Acura was added a few months into the program).
With some Mercedes I have up to $10,000.00 and up to 5 payments I can use. For a while I even had $$ from the factory if I got someone to switch from another brand to Mercedes (Acura was added a few months into the program).
And Aston, Bentley, Rolls are doing quite well for themselves, BTW.
It's too bad you're not as informed as some of the magazines you cited.
It's too bad you're not as informed as some of the magazines you cited.
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/honda/2...l-ar28417.html
Last edited by SSFTSX; 11-18-2008 at 12:01 PM.
11-18-2008, 01:27 PM
#347
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Did poor reliability of the transmissions account for this?
BTW: to get a taxi sized seating package in the EU you need to have purpose built ones like in London or larger sized body shells that are only available on premium brands like the MB.
BTW: to get a taxi sized seating package in the EU you need to have purpose built ones like in London or larger sized body shells that are only available on premium brands like the MB.
11-18-2008, 01:39 PM
#348
AZ Community Team
Not really, I've been in mid-sized taxis' Europe, Fiat's in Italy, Renaults in France, and MB in Germany. Nothing special about any of them.
11-18-2008, 01:50 PM
#349
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That being said if you did want to squeeze into a smaller cheaper car why, as SSFTSX claims, were there no Honda taxis available?
11-18-2008, 02:07 PM
#350
I lived over there for 8+ years when I ran a company in the UK & we would not go near anything smaller then a MB sized package in a hire car or taxi unless their was absolutely nothing else available.
That being said if you did want to squeeze into a smaller cheaper car why, as SSFTSX claims, were there no Honda taxis available?
That being said if you did want to squeeze into a smaller cheaper car why, as SSFTSX claims, were there no Honda taxis available?
http://www.autointell.com/News-2004/...v-17-04-p9.htm
Honda Legend Wins Japan Car of the Year Award 2004-2005 and Most Advanced Technology Award
The new Legend also offers a range of advanced driver support technologies, including the world's first Intelligent Night Vision System*, which detects pedestrians during nighttime driving and provides visual and audio cautions to help prevent accidents. Designed around three key concepts - distinctive styling, exhilarating driving performance, and superior maneuverability - the Legend delivers a new driving experience, providing greater luxury, comfort and safety in all driving conditions. In the roughly one month period since it went on sale in Japan on October 7th, over 2,200 customer orders have been received for the new Legend
Honda Legend Wins Japan Car of the Year Award 2004-2005 and Most Advanced Technology Award
The new Legend also offers a range of advanced driver support technologies, including the world's first Intelligent Night Vision System*, which detects pedestrians during nighttime driving and provides visual and audio cautions to help prevent accidents. Designed around three key concepts - distinctive styling, exhilarating driving performance, and superior maneuverability - the Legend delivers a new driving experience, providing greater luxury, comfort and safety in all driving conditions. In the roughly one month period since it went on sale in Japan on October 7th, over 2,200 customer orders have been received for the new Legend
11-18-2008, 03:43 PM
#351
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You are a very confused person I think. The Mercedes-Benz G Class is a dinosaur that hardly anybody buys. And Acura is not a 'luxury' brand when, until a month ago, they sold a dressed up CRV (RDX), a dressed up FWD Euro Accord (TSX) and an upscale FWD US Accord (TL). The RDX/RL have never really sold very well anyway.
Look up the definition of 'luxury' as provided above because you don't understand some things.
You also do not understand that luxury brands have to offer different kind of financial services than average brands do. The CEO of a company is going to want more ways to get a car than Joe Smith looking to buy a TL over 5 years of payments...
And who cares if Rolls or Bentley were bought by larger brands to survive... Acura is a tiny brand supported by a larger brand (Honda) with the main difference being the other brands are luxury.
Look up the definition of 'luxury' as provided above because you don't understand some things.
You also do not understand that luxury brands have to offer different kind of financial services than average brands do. The CEO of a company is going to want more ways to get a car than Joe Smith looking to buy a TL over 5 years of payments...
And who cares if Rolls or Bentley were bought by larger brands to survive... Acura is a tiny brand supported by a larger brand (Honda) with the main difference being the other brands are luxury.
For past 2 years Acura lineup was the oldest unlike the others and there werent any additional offering like hybrids from Lexus or G class from MB or plethora of offering from BMW.
what this financial reasons have any thing to do with some thing luxury or not.
All these brands were bought by mass market manufacturers otherwise they would have closed the shop. They didnot have any technology of there own and no one buy it. offcourse Honda premium segment cannot supply to taxicabs around EU.
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/honda/2...l-ar28417.html
what this financial reasons have any thing to do with some thing luxury or not.
All these brands were bought by mass market manufacturers otherwise they would have closed the shop. They didnot have any technology of there own and no one buy it. offcourse Honda premium segment cannot supply to taxicabs around EU.
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/honda/2...l-ar28417.html
11-18-2008, 04:01 PM
#352
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Honda’s 4-cylinder 2.2-liter, i-DTEC engine provides 188 horsepower, and 250 foot-pounds of torque & once they can meet the California's emissions requirements it will be released in the US.
11-18-2008, 04:01 PM
#353
AZ Community Team
One of Acura's first admirers when it arrive in 1986 was Bob "Captain Crunch" McCurry who was extremely responsible for shaping the Lexus brand for America. When Acura arrived in the US, Bob and his fellow Toyota exec's cafefully analyzed the 1986 1G Legend. He was very complementory toward it, and realized that Lexus had to achieve more in the LS400 design (which was still in the early stage).
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...14/1024/SEARCH
Acura has faltered at times (SLX, 1G RL and 1G TL are great examples), but anyone who thinks a 2G RL is not a luxury car is either extremely biased or does not get it.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-18-2008 at 04:06 PM.
11-18-2008, 04:12 PM
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11-18-2008, 04:15 PM
#355
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11-18-2008, 05:23 PM
#356
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Acura is considered to be a "near luxury" brand because the prices of its cars generally falls around or under the $35,000.00 mark. I believe Consumer Reports defines the TL as being "near luxury" for example. And 150,000 cars sold is really very small considering the size of the US auto industry is 16-18 million. Acura has become little more than a niche player in a crowded market with few products that make it stand out proudly in the way it did when the NSX debuted, for example. They do have the MDX but it is too early to tell whether the beaked TL will sell.
And back in 1986 maybe Acura was considered to be "luxury" although I don't see how when you could buy an Integra w/out AC or a sunroof but that was over 20 years ago and doesn't count anymore.
And the head of Acura himself recently said that Acura needs to do major things in order to become a Tier 1 brand... Tier 2 brands aren't luxury, are they?
I personally consider the RL to be a luxury car but I believe what I said is that, generally, consumers will not respond to it that way unless more options are offered on it, lease incentives, etc...
The Honda diesel does not pass emissions in automatic transmission form so it won't be sold in the States... the TSX will get a V6 instead, BTW.
And back in 1986 maybe Acura was considered to be "luxury" although I don't see how when you could buy an Integra w/out AC or a sunroof but that was over 20 years ago and doesn't count anymore.
And the head of Acura himself recently said that Acura needs to do major things in order to become a Tier 1 brand... Tier 2 brands aren't luxury, are they?
I personally consider the RL to be a luxury car but I believe what I said is that, generally, consumers will not respond to it that way unless more options are offered on it, lease incentives, etc...
The Honda diesel does not pass emissions in automatic transmission form so it won't be sold in the States... the TSX will get a V6 instead, BTW.
Last edited by CL6; 11-18-2008 at 05:27 PM.
11-18-2008, 05:42 PM
#357
AZ Community Team
Acura is considered to be a "near luxury" brand because the prices of its cars generally falls around or under the $35,000.00 mark. I believe Consumer Reports defines the TL as being "near luxury" for example. And 150,000 cars sold is really very small considering the size of the US auto industry is 16-18 million.
And back in 1986 maybe Acura was considered to be "luxury" although I don't see how when you could buy an Integra w/out AC or a sunroof but that was over 20 years ago and doesn't count anymore.
And the head of Acura himself recently said that Acura needs to do major things in order to become a Tier 1 brand... Tier 2 brands aren't luxury, are they?
The Honda diesel does not pass emissions in automatic transmission form so it won't be sold in the States... the TSX will get a V6 instead, BTW.
And back in 1986 maybe Acura was considered to be "luxury" although I don't see how when you could buy an Integra w/out AC or a sunroof but that was over 20 years ago and doesn't count anymore.
And the head of Acura himself recently said that Acura needs to do major things in order to become a Tier 1 brand... Tier 2 brands aren't luxury, are they?
The Honda diesel does not pass emissions in automatic transmission form so it won't be sold in the States... the TSX will get a V6 instead, BTW.
2) BMW and Mini sold 335,840 units in 2007 in the states, so 1% for Acura (not including Honda) and 2% for BMW/Mini. The US is a large auto market, none the less 150K is not "tiny" by any auto executive's definition.
3) Lexus put out a G20 (Camry 4 cylinder) along with the original, so yeah the Japanese put out small "upscale" econoboxes with their initial offerings
4) As to what Acura does to gain up the tier-1's, only folks in know. They have produced the NSX which in it's time put Ferrari and Porsche. So it remains to be seen.
11-18-2008, 05:58 PM
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The TL would be considered near-luxury but the C and the 3 would be, too? This is tricky because the C Class goes all the way up to about $68,000.00 and the 3 goes up to about $65,000.00.
Look, the Exec VP of Acura even said this:
"The whole direction is to separate Acura and Honda more. In five to six years, Acura will be a tier 1 luxury brand. The face of Acura will be totally different."
So, by the company's own definition, Acura isn't luxury and it isn't Tier 1.
And about the RL he said this: "Colliver said the top-of-the-line RL sedan, with only 6,262 sales in 2007, 'was the wrong car.'"
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...7646/1530/FREE
Look, the Exec VP of Acura even said this:
"The whole direction is to separate Acura and Honda more. In five to six years, Acura will be a tier 1 luxury brand. The face of Acura will be totally different."
So, by the company's own definition, Acura isn't luxury and it isn't Tier 1.
And about the RL he said this: "Colliver said the top-of-the-line RL sedan, with only 6,262 sales in 2007, 'was the wrong car.'"
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...7646/1530/FREE
Last edited by CL6; 11-18-2008 at 06:00 PM.
11-18-2008, 07:23 PM
#359
AZ Community Team
The TL would be considered near-luxury but the C and the 3 would be, too? This is tricky because the C Class goes all the way up to about $68,000.00 and the 3 goes up to about $65,000.00.
Look, the Exec VP of Acura even said this:
"The whole direction is to separate Acura and Honda more. In five to six years, Acura will be a tier 1 luxury brand. The face of Acura will be totally different."
So, by the company's own definition, Acura isn't luxury and it isn't Tier 1.
Look, the Exec VP of Acura even said this:
"The whole direction is to separate Acura and Honda more. In five to six years, Acura will be a tier 1 luxury brand. The face of Acura will be totally different."
So, by the company's own definition, Acura isn't luxury and it isn't Tier 1.
And low-end 3 and C's start in the $30K range so yeah by every auto media standards that means near-luxury.
11-18-2008, 07:29 PM
#360
AZ Community Team
Actually most of the luxury brands are Tier-2. Most auto press only consider BMW/MB/Lexus into the Tier-1 group, a few press also put Audi in there.