2009 Acura Tl vs. 2009 BMW 335xi
11-16-2008, 01:57 AM
#281
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I agree
Actually the Hyundai Genesis is the first car they mention, they say it has the space of a 7er to compete with the 5er at the price of a 3. They mention the TL after the Infiniti suv.
People have to remember the 3 series is the bottom of the barrel for luxury (325), but at the top in performance (M3). The 7 series is all luxury, performance comes after. The 5 series fits right in the middle. There is a reason why car magazines say good things about BMW or compare other cars to BMWs.
Actually the Hyundai Genesis is the first car they mention, they say it has the space of a 7er to compete with the 5er at the price of a 3. They mention the TL after the Infiniti suv.
People have to remember the 3 series is the bottom of the barrel for luxury (325), but at the top in performance (M3). The 7 series is all luxury, performance comes after. The 5 series fits right in the middle. There is a reason why car magazines say good things about BMW or compare other cars to BMWs.
11-16-2008, 10:51 AM
#282
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11-16-2008, 11:58 AM
#284
A few follow-up points:
1. I've driven both the 4G TL & 3G TL, the 2G TSX, the 335, and owned the 1G TSX prior to buying the 08 328xi. If you want to state balance, the 328 is the closest to car perfection I've ever owned/driven. The 335 is nirvana, however in the case of the 335, I was concerned about the longevity of the turbos since I intend to give the 328 to my wife and buy an M coupe for the 2010 LCI.
2. As pointed out by a number of posters, the 4G TL is not a competitor to the 3, but to the 5, if at all - I don't believe anyone really cross-shops a TL with a 5. Personally, I believe the 4G TL competes with the Lexus GS. Infiniti's G, Audi's A6, BMWs 5 are beyond Acura's ability to compete.
3. Forums like these can go round and round about meaningless statistics and reviews, however the truth is there if you are willing to accept it:
Acura. Epic. Fail(ure). Following. Success. 3G TL. 1G TSX.
1. I've driven both the 4G TL & 3G TL, the 2G TSX, the 335, and owned the 1G TSX prior to buying the 08 328xi. If you want to state balance, the 328 is the closest to car perfection I've ever owned/driven. The 335 is nirvana, however in the case of the 335, I was concerned about the longevity of the turbos since I intend to give the 328 to my wife and buy an M coupe for the 2010 LCI.
2. As pointed out by a number of posters, the 4G TL is not a competitor to the 3, but to the 5, if at all - I don't believe anyone really cross-shops a TL with a 5. Personally, I believe the 4G TL competes with the Lexus GS. Infiniti's G, Audi's A6, BMWs 5 are beyond Acura's ability to compete.
3. Forums like these can go round and round about meaningless statistics and reviews, however the truth is there if you are willing to accept it:
Acura. Epic. Fail(ure). Following. Success. 3G TL. 1G TSX.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...fications.html.
The point is Acura is targetting unique combination of fuel economy, maintainance, comfort, telematics at prices that no one can compete and it is reflected in long term residual values of the cars. They arent putting every thing in performance and handling part otherwise u would have seen enhanced version of Honda S2000 engines into TSX and NSX engines into TL. that were producing 300 odd horsepower from 3litre two decades ago without turbos. with varous options of sport suspensions and RWD.
11-16-2008, 12:33 PM
#285
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Motortrend has compared Mitsubishi Lancer EVO with BMW 135I. Lancer despite being heaiver and has two litre high rev torque engines do the 3 miles road lap course 10 seconds faster. So which one is better in handling? offcourse lancer is 10K cheaper for similar equipment.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...fications.html.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...fications.html.
They list two different spreads on the lap times one in the chart (10sec) & one in the narrative (3.42 seconds).
"In one lap around the 2.74-mile Reno-Fernley Raceway, the Evo put a blistering 3.42 seconds on the 135i."
The one in the narrative makes more sense since the 135 is quicker then the Evo in all the measurements.
The other is the Evo is an auto clutch manual & the 135 is a pure auto. Be interesting to see the same run with a 6MT in the 135.
Finally all things considered they said buy the 135 because you can actually live with it as a daily driver & not lose your fillings.
11-16-2008, 12:52 PM
#286
few quick things.
They list two different spreads on the lap times one in the chart (10sec) & one in the narrative (3.42 seconds).
"In one lap around the 2.74-mile Reno-Fernley Raceway, the Evo put a blistering 3.42 seconds on the 135i."
The one in the narrative makes more sense since the 135 is quicker then the Evo in all the measurements.
The other is the Evo is an auto clutch manual & the 135 is a pure auto. Be interesting to see the same run with a 6MT in the 135.
Finally all things considered they said buy the 135 because you can actually live with it as a daily driver & not lose your fillings.
They list two different spreads on the lap times one in the chart (10sec) & one in the narrative (3.42 seconds).
"In one lap around the 2.74-mile Reno-Fernley Raceway, the Evo put a blistering 3.42 seconds on the 135i."
The one in the narrative makes more sense since the 135 is quicker then the Evo in all the measurements.
The other is the Evo is an auto clutch manual & the 135 is a pure auto. Be interesting to see the same run with a 6MT in the 135.
Finally all things considered they said buy the 135 because you can actually live with it as a daily driver & not lose your fillings.
Heavier BMW 335XI is bound to lose straight line performance and price figures.
here is another comparision 135 vs Lancer Evo.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...i-135-lap.html
Significantly, these results echo our collective impressions of these cars. The enthusiasts among us were very fond of the Evo as a track car and rather disappointed with the STi. We all thought the 135i was spectacular to drive, both on road and track. The STi was very forgiving but not much fun. The 135i displayed more understeer than we expected. The Evo had inch-perfect adjustability and can make almost any driver look like an expert with a hint of oversteer that’s controllable and forgiving.
So it’s nice to see our impressions encapsulated in a single empirical measurement that conveys how capable and quick a car is. This playful exercise reaffirmed the maxim that horsepower alone is not the be all end all. The car with the most (STi with 305 hp) was slowest, and the car with the least (Evo with 291 hp) was fastest around our track. Whether this was a one-time exercise or a prelude of things to come remains to be seen
Significantly, these results echo our collective impressions of these cars. The enthusiasts among us were very fond of the Evo as a track car and rather disappointed with the STi. We all thought the 135i was spectacular to drive, both on road and track. The STi was very forgiving but not much fun. The 135i displayed more understeer than we expected. The Evo had inch-perfect adjustability and can make almost any driver look like an expert with a hint of oversteer that’s controllable and forgiving.
So it’s nice to see our impressions encapsulated in a single empirical measurement that conveys how capable and quick a car is. This playful exercise reaffirmed the maxim that horsepower alone is not the be all end all. The car with the most (STi with 305 hp) was slowest, and the car with the least (Evo with 291 hp) was fastest around our track. Whether this was a one-time exercise or a prelude of things to come remains to be seen
11-16-2008, 01:19 PM
#287
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few quick things.
They list two different spreads on the lap times one in the chart (10sec) & one in the narrative (3.42 seconds).
"In one lap around the 2.74-mile Reno-Fernley Raceway, the Evo put a blistering 3.42 seconds on the 135i."
The one in the narrative makes more sense since the 135 is quicker then the Evo in all the measurements.
The other is the Evo is an auto clutch manual & the 135 is a pure auto. Be interesting to see the same run with a 6MT in the 135.
Finally all things considered they said buy the 135 because you can actually live with it as a daily driver & not lose your fillings.
They list two different spreads on the lap times one in the chart (10sec) & one in the narrative (3.42 seconds).
"In one lap around the 2.74-mile Reno-Fernley Raceway, the Evo put a blistering 3.42 seconds on the 135i."
The one in the narrative makes more sense since the 135 is quicker then the Evo in all the measurements.
The other is the Evo is an auto clutch manual & the 135 is a pure auto. Be interesting to see the same run with a 6MT in the 135.
Finally all things considered they said buy the 135 because you can actually live with it as a daily driver & not lose your fillings.
11-16-2008, 01:27 PM
#288
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I was only comparing only one aspect. Lancer is not refined car. and with heavier AWD system and smaller displacement engine it is bound to lose straight line performance figures.
Heavier BMW 335XI is bound to lose straight line performance and price figures.
here is another comparision 135 vs Lancer Evo.
Acura is brand more in line with MB/Lexus not with Infiniti/BMW.
Heavier BMW 335XI is bound to lose straight line performance and price figures.
here is another comparision 135 vs Lancer Evo.
Acura is brand more in line with MB/Lexus not with Infiniti/BMW.
As far as what brand Acura is in line with I will respectfully disagree its truly in line with any of those you listed.
It has one $50K car that it can't sell.
The other brands you listed generally have more cars over $50K then Acura has models. Even my Expedition EL 4X4 with a MSRP over $50K has more luxury features the a TL.
Additionally, a lot of full sized pickups cost as much or more then a 4G SH-AWD
The Acura is much more of a wannabe then been there brand since it has never produced cars in the same luxury class at the other three manufactures.
11-16-2008, 01:29 PM
#289
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The write up said they were having trouble getting to the right gear with the BMW auto. If you are in the wrong gear on a road course performance suffers greatly.
11-16-2008, 02:14 PM
#290
11-16-2008, 03:39 PM
#291
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"The Evo has the best version of this kind of transmission to date. The 135i's auto isn't bad, probably the best currently in a BMW, but the Evo's TC-SST is just amazing."
I can't find where they are having trouble getting to the right gear.
11-16-2008, 03:55 PM
#292
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Since they were comparing it specifically to the 135 auto its reasonable to think the 135 was not always in the right gear since they went out of their way to say the Evo was.
A pure auto (torque converter/planetary gear set) is not as track worthy as the dual clutch/manual auto shift gearbox in the Evo.
Of course if you want to make a case that a pure auto is as efficient on a road course as a dual clutch manual with auto shift be my guest.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-16-2008 at 03:59 PM.
11-16-2008, 04:34 PM
#293
To me all it says is a car biased toward track performance is not very good as a street car. No great revelation there.
As far as what brand Acura is in line with I will respectfully disagree its truly in line with any of those you listed.
It has one $50K car that it can't sell.
As far as what brand Acura is in line with I will respectfully disagree its truly in line with any of those you listed.
It has one $50K car that it can't sell.
The other brands you listed generally have more cars over $50K then Acura has models. Even my Expedition EL 4X4 with a MSRP over $50K has more luxury features the a TL.
http://www.motorauthority.com/conten...17-950x673.jpg
Additionally, a lot of full sized pickups cost as much or more then a 4G SH-AWD
The Acura is much more of a wannabe then been there brand since it has never produced cars in the same luxury class at the other three manufactures.
11-16-2008, 09:03 PM
#294
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Acura is kind of a wannabe luxury brand but they are fixing that by moving away from FWD and loading up the cars with more technology. If the RL had a BMW or Mercedes-Benz badge on the hood it would probably sell very well. Compared to Infiniti, however, Acura is doing very well.
11-16-2008, 09:16 PM
#295
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GS450H
GS460
GX470
ISF
LX570
LS460
SC430
LS600 @ $100+
I can guarantee you that when I pick up my grandkids up after school the are more $50K+ Lexus BMW & Infinity SUV's in the line then Acura TL by a large margin. Have never seen an RL there.
Infinity:
FX-50
M-45
QX56
BMW:
Over 9 models with 3 over $100K
MB: Over 8 with the top of the line at $495K
They are on dealers lots in 2008, ten years later, for as much as $8,900. Rock bottom is about $5,000.
I don't believe you know that much about the used truck market which actually does hold its value much better the then the used car market does.
Honda has a good reputation for reliability which adds to its value as a used car. The Honda Civic also holds its value well but neither the Civic nor the Acura TL have held their value as well as my 10 year old Ford pickup truck has.
11-16-2008, 10:14 PM
#296
I can't really figure out what you are trying to say here but Lexus has the following over $50K all of which are quite common here in Raleigh except for the ISF & 600:
GS450H
GS460
GX470
ISF
LX570
LS460
SC430
LS600 @ $100+
I can guarantee you that when I pick up my grandkids up after school the are more $50K+ Lexus BMW & Infinity SUV's in the line then Acura TL by a large margin. Have never seen an RL there.
Infinity:
FX-50
M-45
QX56
BMW:
Over 9 models with 3 over $100K
MB: Over 8 with the top of the line at $495K
GS450H
GS460
GX470
ISF
LX570
LS460
SC430
LS600 @ $100+
I can guarantee you that when I pick up my grandkids up after school the are more $50K+ Lexus BMW & Infinity SUV's in the line then Acura TL by a large margin. Have never seen an RL there.
Infinity:
FX-50
M-45
QX56
BMW:
Over 9 models with 3 over $100K
MB: Over 8 with the top of the line at $495K
MDX is almost $45-48k SUV but sells quite well compared to GX/ML/BMW X-5/Infinit FX.
so u have to look at individual level. by that standards even 335XI is RL competitor for similar equipment price. u can pretty much get fully loaded RL 50K but in 3 series much too be desired. 09 RL styling, refinement/quality/telematics will blow 3/5 series away.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/14471/20...-navi-review/3
Starting from $32,990 - $1000 less than the predecessor - the Japanese built Accord Euro is a dead set steal for the money and given the function, application, appearance and purpose is pretty hard to pass up. Even with the rivals nipping at the Euro’s heels it has again managed to keep one step ahead and if I could just add bluetooth, self folding mirrors and change the tyres I’d be as good as sold.
Starting from $32,990 - $1000 less than the predecessor - the Japanese built Accord Euro is a dead set steal for the money and given the function, application, appearance and purpose is pretty hard to pass up. Even with the rivals nipping at the Euro’s heels it has again managed to keep one step ahead and if I could just add bluetooth, self folding mirrors and change the tyres I’d be as good as sold.
Regardless of what the design criteria are, the Expedition top models & their EX versions list for over $50K, have more luxury features & easily outsell the Acura RL. I guess not that may people in the US understand style, road presence, refinement, so they just go out & shop the common garden variety MB, BMW Lexus & Infinity.
I paid $15,000 out the door for my new in 1998 Ford Ranger 4X4.
They are on dealers lots in 2008, ten years later, for as much as $8,900. Rock bottom is about $5,000.
I don't believe you know that much about the used truck market which actually does hold its value much better the then the used car market does.
They are on dealers lots in 2008, ten years later, for as much as $8,900. Rock bottom is about $5,000.
I don't believe you know that much about the used truck market which actually does hold its value much better the then the used car market does.
Honda has a good reputation for reliability which adds to its value as a used car. The Honda Civic also holds its value well but neither the Civic nor the Acura TL have held their value as well as my 10 year old Ford pickup truck has.
11-16-2008, 11:06 PM
#297
Three Wheelin'
Interesting how perceptions can be perpetuated just because of one encounter. My first experience with an Acura was with an NSX, and that has always kept me interested in the marque and I've bought more of the same make later on in life. My first ownership experience with a BMW was a 740i, and I swear I will never buy another Bimmer again.
Mind you, they are offering 0.9% financing on all remaining '08 M3s at my local dealership.
Mind you, they are offering 0.9% financing on all remaining '08 M3s at my local dealership.
11-16-2008, 11:10 PM
#298
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11-16-2008, 11:26 PM
#299
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""Thanks to the MR's paddle-shiftable six-speed Twin-Clutch Sport Shift Transmission (TC-SST), the Evo always seems to be in the right gear as well" & "Stunning dual transmission."""
Since they were comparing it specifically to the 135 auto its reasonable to think the 135 was not always in the right gear since they went out of their way to say the Evo was.
A pure auto (torque converter/planetary gear set) is not as track worthy as the dual clutch/manual auto shift gearbox in the Evo.
Of course if you want to make a case that a pure auto is as efficient on a road course as a dual clutch manual with auto shift be my guest.
Since they were comparing it specifically to the 135 auto its reasonable to think the 135 was not always in the right gear since they went out of their way to say the Evo was.
A pure auto (torque converter/planetary gear set) is not as track worthy as the dual clutch/manual auto shift gearbox in the Evo.
Of course if you want to make a case that a pure auto is as efficient on a road course as a dual clutch manual with auto shift be my guest.
Dual clutch of course is better than a normal automatic gearbox. But from the performance numbers, even with the dual clutch box, the EVO is still considerably slower than the 135i in the straight line. Without the SST, the Evo would even be slower.
11-16-2008, 11:27 PM
#300
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Interesting how perceptions can be perpetuated just because of one encounter. My first experience with an Acura was with an NSX, and that has always kept me interested in the marque and I've bought more of the same make later on in life. My first ownership experience with a BMW was a 740i, and I swear I will never buy another Bimmer again.
Mind you, they are offering 0.9% financing on all remaining '08 M3s at my local dealership.
Mind you, they are offering 0.9% financing on all remaining '08 M3s at my local dealership.
11-16-2008, 11:42 PM
#301
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SSFTSX you are missing the point...Acura had yet to make it in the luxury class since it has no cars in the luxury class.
As soon as you start talking about bang for the buck you are no longer talking luxury. Luxury is something lavish, something superfluous, not the best value for the dollar.
Do you really think any MB is worth $495,000. After a certain point $50/60K its all pure status & a cars place on the status food chain determines if its a luxury car or not. So far Acura has not made the cut.
The Expedition was an example of something that cost more then the TL/RL but is NOT a luxury item.
The Expedition makes no claim at all to being a luxury car since its a big 6,000lb truck. It also makes no claim to be a luxury SUV since its a Ford not a Lexus, MB, BMW etc.
What I am saying is even though its not a luxury vehicle it comes with many more luxury type features in addition to all the standard things the TL has, except for HID's
It has heated & air conditioned seats with air ducted from the main a/c system, brake & throttle pedals that auto adjust to the driver along with the seats, mirrors etc when you hit the key fob.
Separate automatic climate controls for front & back, separate audio visual controls front & back with wireless head phones for the back.
Drivers seat that automatically moves back when you shut down & moves forward when you start up. Six speed auto with mechanical limited slip differential.
Better leather then my TL which is getting worn at 28,000 miles.
As soon as you start talking about bang for the buck you are no longer talking luxury. Luxury is something lavish, something superfluous, not the best value for the dollar.
Do you really think any MB is worth $495,000. After a certain point $50/60K its all pure status & a cars place on the status food chain determines if its a luxury car or not. So far Acura has not made the cut.
The Expedition was an example of something that cost more then the TL/RL but is NOT a luxury item.
The Expedition makes no claim at all to being a luxury car since its a big 6,000lb truck. It also makes no claim to be a luxury SUV since its a Ford not a Lexus, MB, BMW etc.
What I am saying is even though its not a luxury vehicle it comes with many more luxury type features in addition to all the standard things the TL has, except for HID's
It has heated & air conditioned seats with air ducted from the main a/c system, brake & throttle pedals that auto adjust to the driver along with the seats, mirrors etc when you hit the key fob.
Separate automatic climate controls for front & back, separate audio visual controls front & back with wireless head phones for the back.
Drivers seat that automatically moves back when you shut down & moves forward when you start up. Six speed auto with mechanical limited slip differential.
Better leather then my TL which is getting worn at 28,000 miles.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-16-2008 at 11:46 PM.
11-16-2008, 11:47 PM
#302
Three Wheelin'
See ya.
11-17-2008, 12:02 AM
#303
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Just a anecdotal point on my personal experience with Honda reliability.
My son-in-laws Honda V6 EX barfed up its automatic transmission at about 60K miles.
My '06 TL in addition to normal maintenance has had its left rear tail light assembly replaced after 3 weeks, third gear in the 6MT replaced, power steering hose replaced & wiper motor replaced all under warranty or recall. Leather on the front seats will be replaced & the DVD player is starting to skip.
My BMW 330 6MT convert has just under 60,000 miles with only normal maintenance, My 98 Ranger 4X4 is 10 years old with only normal maintenance, The Expedition 4X4 is to new to matter but the 02 Explorer 4X4 that I traded in on it had 120K+ miles with only normal maintenance.
Your milage may vary.
My son-in-laws Honda V6 EX barfed up its automatic transmission at about 60K miles.
My '06 TL in addition to normal maintenance has had its left rear tail light assembly replaced after 3 weeks, third gear in the 6MT replaced, power steering hose replaced & wiper motor replaced all under warranty or recall. Leather on the front seats will be replaced & the DVD player is starting to skip.
My BMW 330 6MT convert has just under 60,000 miles with only normal maintenance, My 98 Ranger 4X4 is 10 years old with only normal maintenance, The Expedition 4X4 is to new to matter but the 02 Explorer 4X4 that I traded in on it had 120K+ miles with only normal maintenance.
Your milage may vary.
11-17-2008, 08:37 AM
#304
AZ Community Team
11-17-2008, 11:19 AM
#305
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Excuse me but the 09 Accord EX is the same size as the RL, is it a luxury car? The 402HP Pontiac G8/GXP has the same overall dimensions as the RL except that its 3 inches wider, is it a luxary car?
11-17-2008, 11:31 AM
#306
SSFTSX you are missing the point...Acura had yet to make it in the luxury class since it has no cars in the luxury class.
As soon as you start talking about bang for the buck you are no longer talking luxury. Luxury is something lavish, something superfluous, not the best value for the dollar.
Do you really think any MB is worth $495,000. After a certain point $50/60K its all pure status & a cars place on the status food chain determines if its a luxury car or not. So far Acura has not made the cut.
The Expedition was an example of something that cost more then the TL/RL but is NOT a luxury item.
The Expedition makes no claim at all to being a luxury car since its a big 6,000lb truck. It also makes no claim to be a luxury SUV since its a Ford not a Lexus, MB, BMW etc.
What I am saying is even though its not a luxury vehicle it comes with many more luxury type features in addition to all the standard things the TL has, except for HID's
It has heated & air conditioned seats with air ducted from the main a/c system, brake & throttle pedals that auto adjust to the driver along with the seats, mirrors etc when you hit the key fob.
Separate automatic climate controls for front & back, separate audio visual controls front & back with wireless head phones for the back.
Drivers seat that automatically moves back when you shut down & moves forward when you start up. Six speed auto with mechanical limited slip differential.
Better leather then my TL which is getting worn at 28,000 miles.
As soon as you start talking about bang for the buck you are no longer talking luxury. Luxury is something lavish, something superfluous, not the best value for the dollar.
Do you really think any MB is worth $495,000. After a certain point $50/60K its all pure status & a cars place on the status food chain determines if its a luxury car or not. So far Acura has not made the cut.
The Expedition was an example of something that cost more then the TL/RL but is NOT a luxury item.
The Expedition makes no claim at all to being a luxury car since its a big 6,000lb truck. It also makes no claim to be a luxury SUV since its a Ford not a Lexus, MB, BMW etc.
What I am saying is even though its not a luxury vehicle it comes with many more luxury type features in addition to all the standard things the TL has, except for HID's
It has heated & air conditioned seats with air ducted from the main a/c system, brake & throttle pedals that auto adjust to the driver along with the seats, mirrors etc when you hit the key fob.
Separate automatic climate controls for front & back, separate audio visual controls front & back with wireless head phones for the back.
Drivers seat that automatically moves back when you shut down & moves forward when you start up. Six speed auto with mechanical limited slip differential.
Better leather then my TL which is getting worn at 28,000 miles.
I need car that is comfortable, quiet at high speeds, decent handling and with good fuel economy so no need to for gas stops on freeway drivings for hours.
2/3 of Luxury cars in Europe are now diesel. It does not prove that Luxury has to be superflous. People are willing to accept diesel noise and lower horsepower.
11-17-2008, 11:37 AM
#307
http://www.motorauthority.com/2009-h...-in-busan.html
Visual updates include a new hood, front bumper and lights plus a redesigned trunk lid and 18" alloy wheels. An active noise cancellation system helps keep cabin noise to a minimum, plus a new type of sound deadening material is employed in the new 2009 model to help further attenuate unwanted noise. Technological connectedness is made easy with an array of attachment options, including Bluetooth, USB and auxiliary inputs.
The full complement of standard safety features including traction control, airbags, active head restraints and rigid body structure are present as well, while the chassis itself has received some attention to bolster rigidity for improved handling. Suspension settings have also been tweaked to improve ride and handling.
Visual updates include a new hood, front bumper and lights plus a redesigned trunk lid and 18" alloy wheels. An active noise cancellation system helps keep cabin noise to a minimum, plus a new type of sound deadening material is employed in the new 2009 model to help further attenuate unwanted noise. Technological connectedness is made easy with an array of attachment options, including Bluetooth, USB and auxiliary inputs.
The full complement of standard safety features including traction control, airbags, active head restraints and rigid body structure are present as well, while the chassis itself has received some attention to bolster rigidity for improved handling. Suspension settings have also been tweaked to improve ride and handling.
http://www.motorauthority.com/conten...17-950x673.jpg
11-17-2008, 11:39 AM
#308
AZ Community Team
The rest of the auto press/critic/journalists use the features/functions/quality of appointments/materials/technology/performance/safety.... to quantify a luxury car. Given the SH-AWD, wood veneer, radar cruise control, Real-time Traffic XM GPS, adaptive headlights,.... the RL falls into the a mid-sized luxury catagory by the majority of the auto press.
http://www.hondanews.com/categories/755/releases/4413
Worth a read if you want to know all the things about the RL.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-17-2008 at 11:44 AM.
11-17-2008, 11:44 AM
#309
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You are not completely correct in saying this. Gasoline is taxed through the roof in Europe while diesel is not hence why diesel sells so well in Europe.
And while you are getting less horsepower with diesel you are getting maybe twice the torque, which is more useful for city driving, which is more common in Europe than all out freeway driving.
The RL is a 'luxury' car but without offering things like a V8 and options such as front/rear parking sensors, adjustable suspension, adjustable rear seats (luxury items), etc... I don't think it is considered as being in the same class as the 5 or the E, for example. And, if you doubt this, then why don't people buy the car? You're not getting a lot of BMW/Mercedes customers even knowing about the car.
And while you are getting less horsepower with diesel you are getting maybe twice the torque, which is more useful for city driving, which is more common in Europe than all out freeway driving.
The RL is a 'luxury' car but without offering things like a V8 and options such as front/rear parking sensors, adjustable suspension, adjustable rear seats (luxury items), etc... I don't think it is considered as being in the same class as the 5 or the E, for example. And, if you doubt this, then why don't people buy the car? You're not getting a lot of BMW/Mercedes customers even knowing about the car.
11-17-2008, 11:56 AM
#310
You are not completely correct in saying this. Gasoline is taxed through the roof in Europe while diesel is not hence why diesel sells so well in Europe.
And while you are getting less horsepower with diesel you are getting maybe twice the torque, which is more useful for city driving, which is more common in Europe than all out freeway driving.
The RL is a 'luxury' car but without offering things like a V8 and options such as front/rear parking sensors, adjustable suspension, adjustable rear seats (luxury items), etc... I don't think it is considered as being in the same class as the 5 or the E, for example. And, if you doubt this, then why don't people buy the car? You're not getting a lot of BMW/Mercedes customers even knowing about the car.
And while you are getting less horsepower with diesel you are getting maybe twice the torque, which is more useful for city driving, which is more common in Europe than all out freeway driving.
The RL is a 'luxury' car but without offering things like a V8 and options such as front/rear parking sensors, adjustable suspension, adjustable rear seats (luxury items), etc... I don't think it is considered as being in the same class as the 5 or the E, for example. And, if you doubt this, then why don't people buy the car? You're not getting a lot of BMW/Mercedes customers even knowing about the car.
10% of luxury cars are V8. Both S Class and BMW 7 come with 6 cylinder gasoline and diesel and they are the biggest seller. BMW 3, Audi A-4/MB-C has 4 cylinders and they are the majority. They are called compact exectives.
Or according to your definition they are not luxury. It is not the cylinders that matter but aerodynamic drag, weight ratio to achieve decent performance. Acura cars have the lowest Cd ratio right with lexus.
11-17-2008, 11:59 AM
#311
AZ Community Team
You are not completely correct in saying this. Gasoline is taxed through the roof in Europe while diesel is not hence why diesel sells so well in Europe.
And while you are getting less horsepower with diesel you are getting maybe twice the torque, which is more useful for city driving, which is more common in Europe than all out freeway driving.
The RL is a 'luxury' car but without offering things like a V8 and options such as front/rear parking sensors, adjustable suspension, adjustable rear seats (luxury items), etc... I don't think it is considered as being in the same class as the 5 or the E, for example. And, if you doubt this, then why don't people buy the car? You're not getting a lot of BMW/Mercedes customers even knowing about the car.
And while you are getting less horsepower with diesel you are getting maybe twice the torque, which is more useful for city driving, which is more common in Europe than all out freeway driving.
The RL is a 'luxury' car but without offering things like a V8 and options such as front/rear parking sensors, adjustable suspension, adjustable rear seats (luxury items), etc... I don't think it is considered as being in the same class as the 5 or the E, for example. And, if you doubt this, then why don't people buy the car? You're not getting a lot of BMW/Mercedes customers even knowing about the car.
You answered your 1st question with your 2nd question. Most BMW/MB owners probably don't know much if any about the RL.
Also diesel fuel is also heavily taxed in Europe, the cost of diesel is only slightly less than gas.
11-17-2008, 12:37 PM
#312
My only car is a Bus
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As to diesel I'm afraid you're wrong. Diesel is taxed much less in Europe because it is used by commercial companies who would go on strike were it taxed any higher. Gasoline is taxed at a higher rate. In fact, the disparity is so great the EU wants to stop this tax break from happening anymore:
http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport...article-162446
For example:
"excise duties would be lifted from the current €302 per 1,000 litres to €359 – bringing it in line with the current minimum tax on petrol."
This would be an increase by 20%:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/748ecd92-d...00e2511c8.html
Also Europe refines far more oil into diesel than they do gasoline.
The 5 and E don't have reclining seats but the 7 and S do, and those are the flagship sedans of their respective brands. The RL is the flagship brand of Acura.
Parking sensors are a dealer installed option but are only for the rear not the front.
We had an 06 RL here for nearly 3 months and every E Class customer I showed it to had never heard of it.
The S Class is not offered in the States with a V6 nor as a diesel... only as a V8. Mercedes-Benz stopped selling 4 cylinders in the States in 2005... not a luxury engine...
http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport...article-162446
For example:
"excise duties would be lifted from the current €302 per 1,000 litres to €359 – bringing it in line with the current minimum tax on petrol."
This would be an increase by 20%:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/748ecd92-d...00e2511c8.html
Also Europe refines far more oil into diesel than they do gasoline.
The 5 and E don't have reclining seats but the 7 and S do, and those are the flagship sedans of their respective brands. The RL is the flagship brand of Acura.
Parking sensors are a dealer installed option but are only for the rear not the front.
We had an 06 RL here for nearly 3 months and every E Class customer I showed it to had never heard of it.
The S Class is not offered in the States with a V6 nor as a diesel... only as a V8. Mercedes-Benz stopped selling 4 cylinders in the States in 2005... not a luxury engine...
Last edited by CL6; 11-17-2008 at 12:41 PM.
11-17-2008, 12:56 PM
#313
Diesel cars are also costly in upfront costs and maintainance.
EuroAccord does have parking sensor. So it isnot big deal that US bound RL dont have.
S and 7 series are tug boats. not in same class of RL which is more compared to 5 and E series. 3/5, C/E are the majority sellers of the brands. So suppose of Honda buy Buggati or RollsRoyce just to produce few overexpensive cars does not make it luxury brand. Luxury brand consistenly provides luxury in majority of its cars.
EuroAccord does have parking sensor. So it isnot big deal that US bound RL dont have.
S and 7 series are tug boats. not in same class of RL which is more compared to 5 and E series. 3/5, C/E are the majority sellers of the brands. So suppose of Honda buy Buggati or RollsRoyce just to produce few overexpensive cars does not make it luxury brand. Luxury brand consistenly provides luxury in majority of its cars.
http://www.peterwarren.com.au/news/?...d=150&cat_id=1
Euro Luxury
• Driver and front passenger 8-way power seats
• Driver memory seat
• 18 inch alloy wheels
• Temporary spare tyre
• Automatic on/off headlights
• Front and rear parking sensors
Euro Luxury Navi
• Satellite Navigation
• Reversing camera
Euro Luxury
• Driver and front passenger 8-way power seats
• Driver memory seat
• 18 inch alloy wheels
• Temporary spare tyre
• Automatic on/off headlights
• Front and rear parking sensors
Euro Luxury Navi
• Satellite Navigation
• Reversing camera
11-17-2008, 01:00 PM
#314
AZ Community Team
Gasoline prices in Europe
http://goeurope.about.com/gi/dynamic...s.html%23Motor
Diesel prices in Europe
http://goeurope.about.com/gi/dynamic....html%23Diesel
The differences are not "Gasoline is taxed through the roof in Europe while diesel is not hence why diesel sells so well in Europe." as you stated.
I've been to Europe four times and paid for fuel there in France, Italy and Germany, so I was fairly aware of the differences.
http://goeurope.about.com/gi/dynamic...s.html%23Motor
Diesel prices in Europe
http://goeurope.about.com/gi/dynamic....html%23Diesel
The differences are not "Gasoline is taxed through the roof in Europe while diesel is not hence why diesel sells so well in Europe." as you stated.
I've been to Europe four times and paid for fuel there in France, Italy and Germany, so I was fairly aware of the differences.
As to diesel I'm afraid you're wrong. Diesel is taxed much less in Europe because it is used by commercial companies who would go on strike were it taxed any higher. Gasoline is taxed at a higher rate. In fact, the disparity is so great the EU wants to stop this tax break from happening anymore:
http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport...article-162446
For example:
"excise duties would be lifted from the current €302 per 1,000 litres to €359 – bringing it in line with the current minimum tax on petrol."
This would be an increase by 20%:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/748ecd92-d...00e2511c8.html
Also Europe refines far more oil into diesel than they do gasoline.
The 5 and E don't have reclining seats but the 7 and S do, and those are the flagship sedans of their respective brands. The RL is the flagship brand of Acura.
Parking sensors are a dealer installed option but are only for the rear not the front.
We had an 06 RL here for nearly 3 months and every E Class customer I showed it to had never heard of it.
The S Class is not offered in the States with a V6 nor as a diesel... only as a V8. Mercedes-Benz stopped selling 4 cylinders in the States in 2005... not a luxury engine...
http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport...article-162446
For example:
"excise duties would be lifted from the current €302 per 1,000 litres to €359 – bringing it in line with the current minimum tax on petrol."
This would be an increase by 20%:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/748ecd92-d...00e2511c8.html
Also Europe refines far more oil into diesel than they do gasoline.
The 5 and E don't have reclining seats but the 7 and S do, and those are the flagship sedans of their respective brands. The RL is the flagship brand of Acura.
Parking sensors are a dealer installed option but are only for the rear not the front.
We had an 06 RL here for nearly 3 months and every E Class customer I showed it to had never heard of it.
The S Class is not offered in the States with a V6 nor as a diesel... only as a V8. Mercedes-Benz stopped selling 4 cylinders in the States in 2005... not a luxury engine...
11-17-2008, 01:10 PM
#315
My only car is a Bus
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Republik of Kalifornia
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LOL. I'm sorry but any discussion of what a 'luxury' car is should not include a reference to the Euro Accord not having something so then it's okay for the RL to not have it, either!
Here are some options offered for the E which the RL does not offer:
- Headlamp washing system
- Adjustable suspension
- Limited slip differential
- 186 MPH top speed
- Illuminated door sills
- Split folding rear seats
- Massaging seats
- Panorama moonroof
- Electronic trunk closer
- Air conditioned front seats (RL only blows ambient air)
- Upgraded leather w/sport seats
- Front and rear parking sensors
- High definition radio
- PRE-SAFE - Standard & makes occupants safer before an accident
- Tele-Aide (like OnStar which is no longer on the RL)
- 7 speed automatic (not 5 speed like RL)
- V8
You start getting into this stuff... that's luxury.
Hey I lived in Europe for 2 years (France) and I just cited a very recent article showing how diesel will increase in price by 30% because it is currently taxed less than gasoline.
Here are some options offered for the E which the RL does not offer:
- Headlamp washing system
- Adjustable suspension
- Limited slip differential
- 186 MPH top speed
- Illuminated door sills
- Split folding rear seats
- Massaging seats
- Panorama moonroof
- Electronic trunk closer
- Air conditioned front seats (RL only blows ambient air)
- Upgraded leather w/sport seats
- Front and rear parking sensors
- High definition radio
- PRE-SAFE - Standard & makes occupants safer before an accident
- Tele-Aide (like OnStar which is no longer on the RL)
- 7 speed automatic (not 5 speed like RL)
- V8
You start getting into this stuff... that's luxury.
Hey I lived in Europe for 2 years (France) and I just cited a very recent article showing how diesel will increase in price by 30% because it is currently taxed less than gasoline.
Diesel cars are also costly in upfront costs and maintainance.
EuroAccord does have parking sensor. So it isnot big deal that US bound RL dont have.
S and 7 series are tug boats. not in same class of RL which is more compared to 5 and E series. 3/5, C/E are the majority sellers of the brands. So suppose of Honda buy Buggati or RollsRoyce just to produce few overexpensive cars does not make it luxury brand. Luxury brand consistenly provides luxury in majority of its cars.
EuroAccord does have parking sensor. So it isnot big deal that US bound RL dont have.
S and 7 series are tug boats. not in same class of RL which is more compared to 5 and E series. 3/5, C/E are the majority sellers of the brands. So suppose of Honda buy Buggati or RollsRoyce just to produce few overexpensive cars does not make it luxury brand. Luxury brand consistenly provides luxury in majority of its cars.
11-17-2008, 01:24 PM
#316
My only car is a Bus
Join Date: Sep 2005
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As for diesel prices check it out... diesel is less than gas:
http://www.see-search.com/business/f...iceseurope.htm
Why... because of taxation (like I said):
"At the pump, consumers paid less for diesel in some countries only because these countries tax gasoline much more heavily than diesel. For example, in France, consumers paid over $1 more per gallon in taxes for gasoline versus diesel, resulting in retail prices of $7.72 per gallon for gasoline and $7.13 per gallon for diesel."
http://www.energytomorrow.org/Diesel_Prices.aspx
Though diesel is catching up:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03...ine-in-europe/
http://www.see-search.com/business/f...iceseurope.htm
Why... because of taxation (like I said):
"At the pump, consumers paid less for diesel in some countries only because these countries tax gasoline much more heavily than diesel. For example, in France, consumers paid over $1 more per gallon in taxes for gasoline versus diesel, resulting in retail prices of $7.72 per gallon for gasoline and $7.13 per gallon for diesel."
http://www.energytomorrow.org/Diesel_Prices.aspx
Though diesel is catching up:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03...ine-in-europe/
11-17-2008, 01:34 PM
#317
LOL. I'm sorry but any discussion of what a 'luxury' car is should not include a reference to the Euro Accord not having something so then it's okay for the RL to not have it, either!
Here are some options offered for the E which the RL does not offer:
- Headlamp washing system
- Adjustable suspension
- Limited slip differential
- 186 MPH top speed
- Illuminated door sills
- Split folding rear seats
- Massaging seats
- Panorama moonroof
- Electronic trunk closer
- Air conditioned front seats (RL only blows ambient air)
- Upgraded leather w/sport seats
- Front and rear parking sensors
- High definition radio
- PRE-SAFE - Standard & makes occupants safer before an accident
- Tele-Aide (like OnStar which is no longer on the RL)
- 7 speed automatic (not 5 speed like RL)
- V8
You start getting into this stuff... that's luxury.
Hey I lived in Europe for 2 years (France) and I just cited a very recent article showing how diesel will increase in price by 30% because it is currently taxed less than gasoline.
Here are some options offered for the E which the RL does not offer:
- Headlamp washing system
- Adjustable suspension
- Limited slip differential
- 186 MPH top speed
- Illuminated door sills
- Split folding rear seats
- Massaging seats
- Panorama moonroof
- Electronic trunk closer
- Air conditioned front seats (RL only blows ambient air)
- Upgraded leather w/sport seats
- Front and rear parking sensors
- High definition radio
- PRE-SAFE - Standard & makes occupants safer before an accident
- Tele-Aide (like OnStar which is no longer on the RL)
- 7 speed automatic (not 5 speed like RL)
- V8
You start getting into this stuff... that's luxury.
Hey I lived in Europe for 2 years (France) and I just cited a very recent article showing how diesel will increase in price by 30% because it is currently taxed less than gasoline.
These are the feature that person has to deal every day.
http://legend.honda.com.au/about-the-car_interior.aspx
Active Noise CancellationThe Legend's Active Noise Cancellation (ANC) system reduces unwanted cabin noise by as much as 10dB. A pair of ceiling-mounted microphones monitor low-frequency noise in the cabin. When sound is detected, the ANC unit sends an opposite phase signal through the Legend's audio system at an inaudible volume, effectively cancelling out the original sound. It all happens automatically, whether the audio system is switched on or off.
Electric Rear Sunshade
An electric rear sunshade is easily activated by a switch on the driver's overhead console. When 'reverse' gear is selected, it automatically retracts to allow clear rear vision. For greater passenger comfort on sunny days, the Legend also has manually operated sunshades for each rear side window
11-17-2008, 01:46 PM
#318
AZ Community Team
You could do the same for the RL, and by the way the cooled seats are only on the E550 (not in the same price range as the RL, the E350 does not even offer cooled seats). Here is the wording from the MB website for the cooled seats.
"In addition to staying toasty inside when it's cold outside with heated seats, enjoy the extra benefits of Active Ventilated Seats. These are designed to keep you cool during warmer months by gently circulating air through perforations in the seat and backrest, which also helps eliminate perspiration buildup. Using the ventilation and heating features simultaneously can even help keep you warm and dry on cold and rainy days."
So it sounds to me as the same technology as the RL seating. Also never saw hi-def FM on MB-USA website, only Sirius (XM for RL). Add in SH-AWD for the RL which is something that is fairly important considering it's torque management system.
On the other hand I do agree that the RL's greatest technical fault is a 5AT, it should be at least a 6AT. And maybe it will eventually get a V8.
I would also not consider 186MPH a option (how does one order a 186MPH option from the standard 149MPH top speed limiter?), none the less the E350 luxury compares fairly well against the RL overall. Both have some gadgets and gizmo's the other does not have but both are luxury cars.
"In addition to staying toasty inside when it's cold outside with heated seats, enjoy the extra benefits of Active Ventilated Seats. These are designed to keep you cool during warmer months by gently circulating air through perforations in the seat and backrest, which also helps eliminate perspiration buildup. Using the ventilation and heating features simultaneously can even help keep you warm and dry on cold and rainy days."
So it sounds to me as the same technology as the RL seating. Also never saw hi-def FM on MB-USA website, only Sirius (XM for RL). Add in SH-AWD for the RL which is something that is fairly important considering it's torque management system.
On the other hand I do agree that the RL's greatest technical fault is a 5AT, it should be at least a 6AT. And maybe it will eventually get a V8.
I would also not consider 186MPH a option (how does one order a 186MPH option from the standard 149MPH top speed limiter?), none the less the E350 luxury compares fairly well against the RL overall. Both have some gadgets and gizmo's the other does not have but both are luxury cars.
LOL. I'm sorry but any discussion of what a 'luxury' car is should not include a reference to the Euro Accord not having something so then it's okay for the RL to not have it, either!
Here are some options offered for the E which the RL does not offer:
- Headlamp washing system
- Adjustable suspension
- Limited slip differential
- 186 MPH top speed
- Illuminated door sills
- Split folding rear seats
- Massaging seats
- Panorama moonroof
- Electronic trunk closer
- Air conditioned front seats (RL only blows ambient air)
- Upgraded leather w/sport seats
- Front and rear parking sensors
- High definition radio
- PRE-SAFE - Standard & makes occupants safer before an accident
- Tele-Aide (like OnStar which is no longer on the RL)
- 7 speed automatic (not 5 speed like RL)
- V8
You start getting into this stuff... that's luxury.
Hey I lived in Europe for 2 years (France) and I just cited a very recent article showing how diesel will increase in price by 30% because it is currently taxed less than gasoline.
Here are some options offered for the E which the RL does not offer:
- Headlamp washing system
- Adjustable suspension
- Limited slip differential
- 186 MPH top speed
- Illuminated door sills
- Split folding rear seats
- Massaging seats
- Panorama moonroof
- Electronic trunk closer
- Air conditioned front seats (RL only blows ambient air)
- Upgraded leather w/sport seats
- Front and rear parking sensors
- High definition radio
- PRE-SAFE - Standard & makes occupants safer before an accident
- Tele-Aide (like OnStar which is no longer on the RL)
- 7 speed automatic (not 5 speed like RL)
- V8
You start getting into this stuff... that's luxury.
Hey I lived in Europe for 2 years (France) and I just cited a very recent article showing how diesel will increase in price by 30% because it is currently taxed less than gasoline.
11-17-2008, 02:07 PM
#319
LOL. I'm sorry but any discussion of what a 'luxury' car is should not include a reference to the Euro Accord not having something so then it's okay for the RL to not have it, either!
Here are some options offered for the E which the RL does not offer:
- Headlamp washing system
- Adjustable suspension
- Limited slip differential
- 186 MPH top speed
- Illuminated door sills
- Split folding rear seats
- Massaging seats
- Panorama moonroof
- Electronic trunk closer
- Air conditioned front seats (RL only blows ambient air)
- Upgraded leather w/sport seats
- Front and rear parking sensors
- High definition radio
- PRE-SAFE - Standard & makes occupants safer before an accident
- Tele-Aide (like OnStar which is no longer on the RL)
- 7 speed automatic (not 5 speed like RL)
- V8
You start getting into this stuff... that's luxury.
Here are some options offered for the E which the RL does not offer:
- Headlamp washing system
- Adjustable suspension
- Limited slip differential
- 186 MPH top speed
- Illuminated door sills
- Split folding rear seats
- Massaging seats
- Panorama moonroof
- Electronic trunk closer
- Air conditioned front seats (RL only blows ambient air)
- Upgraded leather w/sport seats
- Front and rear parking sensors
- High definition radio
- PRE-SAFE - Standard & makes occupants safer before an accident
- Tele-Aide (like OnStar which is no longer on the RL)
- 7 speed automatic (not 5 speed like RL)
- V8
You start getting into this stuff... that's luxury.
I have been saying this for a long time. Acura tends to rebadge cars and still offer nothing really above what they rebadged, ie: TSX/Euro Accord or CSX/Civic (Canada) etc.
Luxury is an example of the little things such as items listed above. I mentioned earlier about the 1G TSX and VW GLI being compared. Both cars have similar drivetrains etc but the GLI/2.0T had luxury items such as Headlamp washers, auto sensing wipers, full heated seats, etc etc etc and this isnt even VW's luxury line Audi.
"iforyou" then mentioned he could compare a GLI/2.0T to an A4 then. VW/Audi does overlap some of their lines as they are not a seperate identity like BMW or MB but the difference when comparing a A4 to a GLI is quality, materials used and most important other luxury items and drivetrains not offered on a GLI/2.0T....So while you can say you could compare the two, it clearly isnt right.
Just look at the last paragraph in the edmunds review of the TL...
"Still Not Silly-Looking
As ever, the 2009 Acura TL is a weird bird in the entry luxury segment. It's a large front-drive V6-powered sedan, similar in performance and price to the Nissan Maxima 3.5 SV. But Acura is the corporation's luxury or rather premium nameplate, putting it in de facto competition with the Infiniti G37. It's a brand that's never really been pitched as a full-on luxury brand competing with the Germans. Instead, it's operated (most successfully) as a sensible step up from the sensible Honda models. Despite the redesign for the TL, this positioning hasn't changed for 2009."
Most people including auto journalists can see that alot of the Acura line is comparable to high end parent company models and that Acura should be compared by default because its suppose to be higher/luxury brand compared to Honda, but just doesnt make it into the full Luxury line yet....at least when comparing to German brands.
11-17-2008, 02:14 PM
#320
AZ Community Team
True, but then again when one sees 5-series taxi (as I've taken in Europe a few times), you get the wonderment of what is truely luxury?
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_c7Vipep27NQ/R3...4/IMG_2699.JPG
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_c7Vipep27NQ/R3...4/IMG_2699.JPG
+1
I have been saying this for a long time. Acura tends to rebadge cars and still offer nothing really above what they rebadged, ie: TSX/Euro Accord or CSX/Civic (Canada) etc.
Luxury is an example of the little things such as items listed above. I mentioned earlier about the 1G TSX and VW GLI being compared. Both cars have similar drivetrains etc but the GLI/2.0T had luxury items such as Headlamp washers, auto sensing wipers, full heated seats, etc etc etc and this isnt even VW's luxury line Audi.
"iforyou" then mentioned he could compare a GLI/2.0T to an A4 then. VW/Audi does overlap some of their lines as they are not a seperate identity like BMW or MB but the difference when comparing a A4 to a GLI is quality, materials used and most important other luxury items and drivetrains not offered on a GLI/2.0T....So while you can say you could compare the two, it clearly isnt right.
Just look at the last paragraph in the edmunds review of the TL...
"Still Not Silly-Looking
As ever, the 2009 Acura TL is a weird bird in the entry luxury segment. It's a large front-drive V6-powered sedan, similar in performance and price to the Nissan Maxima 3.5 SV. But Acura is the corporation's luxury or rather premium nameplate, putting it in de facto competition with the Infiniti G37. It's a brand that's never really been pitched as a full-on luxury brand competing with the Germans. Instead, it's operated (most successfully) as a sensible step up from the sensible Honda models. Despite the redesign for the TL, this positioning hasn't changed for 2009."
Most people including auto journalists can see that alot of the Acura line is comparable to high end parent company models and that Acura should be compared by default because its suppose to be higher/luxury brand compared to Honda, but just doesnt make it into the full Luxury line yet....at least when comparing to German brands.
I have been saying this for a long time. Acura tends to rebadge cars and still offer nothing really above what they rebadged, ie: TSX/Euro Accord or CSX/Civic (Canada) etc.
Luxury is an example of the little things such as items listed above. I mentioned earlier about the 1G TSX and VW GLI being compared. Both cars have similar drivetrains etc but the GLI/2.0T had luxury items such as Headlamp washers, auto sensing wipers, full heated seats, etc etc etc and this isnt even VW's luxury line Audi.
"iforyou" then mentioned he could compare a GLI/2.0T to an A4 then. VW/Audi does overlap some of their lines as they are not a seperate identity like BMW or MB but the difference when comparing a A4 to a GLI is quality, materials used and most important other luxury items and drivetrains not offered on a GLI/2.0T....So while you can say you could compare the two, it clearly isnt right.
Just look at the last paragraph in the edmunds review of the TL...
"Still Not Silly-Looking
As ever, the 2009 Acura TL is a weird bird in the entry luxury segment. It's a large front-drive V6-powered sedan, similar in performance and price to the Nissan Maxima 3.5 SV. But Acura is the corporation's luxury or rather premium nameplate, putting it in de facto competition with the Infiniti G37. It's a brand that's never really been pitched as a full-on luxury brand competing with the Germans. Instead, it's operated (most successfully) as a sensible step up from the sensible Honda models. Despite the redesign for the TL, this positioning hasn't changed for 2009."
Most people including auto journalists can see that alot of the Acura line is comparable to high end parent company models and that Acura should be compared by default because its suppose to be higher/luxury brand compared to Honda, but just doesnt make it into the full Luxury line yet....at least when comparing to German brands.